Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) (08/09/90)
Alright I would like someone at CBM (Dave Haynie this is probably right up your alley). I recently purchased my 3000 about 2 weeks ago. At that time my dealer (and boss) allowed change the Quantum 40S for a Seagate 1096N hard drive (80 megs compared to 40 on the Quantum). Well everything goes fine util I power down an turn on my system....No autoboot!! Seems my little newly born 3000 does not like to wait till the hard drive has initialized. What I want to know is can/will this be fixed soon?? I talked to some person in Customer Support (Yes I called all the way to CBM in the U.S. from Canada) and she tells me to sell/tradein my brand new 1096N hard drive!!!!! Now I ask what kinda answer is that? Seagate is one of the largest manufactuers (if not the largest) of hard disk drives and I am told that I should sell my HD and get another one? I want this fixed!! Next why does Commodore insist on such a tight timing for boot devices? From what I understand vertually every SCSI controller manufactuer will allow you to boot any HD you want, why does CBM not allow this? Someone from CBM tell me how to get my 1096N working fully with my 3000 or at least tell me that you are working to fix the problem. If you can't tell me how to get 3000 to autoboot my Seagate 1096N properly or that you will not/can't fix it please tell me why. A 99% happy 3000/25mhz owner! Randy -- Randy Coghill - via FidoNet node 1:140/22 UUCP: ...!alberta!dvinci!weyr!70!Randy.Coghill Domain: Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG Standard Disclaimers Apply...
David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) (08/11/90)
Well, this autoboot/SeaGate problem has been addressed before, and I own a couple of Seagates, so here's the problem: - Seagates take about 14 days to boot from a cold boot. The A2091 controller doesn't wait long enough, so from a cold boot it won't work. You say autobooting doesn't work, but I bet it does from a warm boot, right? - The A2091 ROMS have a function for this (nicknamed Seagate Wait or something like that). On an A590, there's a DIP-switch on the back to enable it, but currently no way to activate it on the 3000. I have the switch, but don't use it because it takes too damn long on warm boots. I just CTRL-A-A about 5 secs after I turn on my machine. Since the only time it's really critical for you (with the BBS) would be from a power failure, I don't know what you'd want to do, but for me, I just live with it. Sorry, no solutions, just an explanation. Didn't mean to get your hopes up! -- David Plummer - via FidoNet node 1:140/22 UUCP: ...!alberta!dvinci!weyr!70!David.Plummer Domain: David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG Standard Disclaimers Apply...
Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) (08/12/90)
Dave what I would like is to find out if Commodore is going to fix the problem (as far as I know there scsi routines are the only ones that have this timing problem). While they do put these nice and fairly expensive Quantums drives in the systems it is almost irrisponsible (sp) for them to ignore the fact that some users would go with different brands to suit there needs (for the same price as a Quantum 40 I got the Seagate 1096N which gives me double the storage capacity). The point is that Commodore seems to ignore most things and so entirely as they please and the customer is not supposed to say anything and live with it....Well I want a working product with the hardware I have in my system. Randy -- Randy Coghill - via FidoNet node 1:140/22 UUCP: ...!alberta!dvinci!weyr!70!Randy.Coghill Domain: Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG Standard Disclaimers Apply...
David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) (08/13/90)
Well, I don't know if there is a fix coming... if it were, it would have to be in hardware (or somehow in the new KickStart ROM I guess). You might be able to patch a solder bridge somewhere on the hard drive controler, but I'm sure not going to recommend that! The point is, there is a facility in place to overcome the problem, you just can't activate it with the A3000. But why should you be able to? After all, the 3000s come with hard drives, and they work fine. They can't compensate for what you might do! If you were to add the Seagate external (as I did) then you would have a problem. Like I said though, the wait time for Seagate drives is soooo long that I don't enable it, even though I can. Seagate, if anyone, should be taking the heat for making a drive that takes 30 seconds to spool up. On my machine at work, I have a 330 meg micropolis that weighs at least ten times what the Seagates do, and it spins up faster. I guess if you try direct mail to someone they might give you a better answer. But WAIT! I have an idea! Try configuring you 1096 as logical unit 6 or 7. Since the drives are searched in sequence, that might dealy (delay) it enough to catch it. I have my externals as units 0,1 and 6, and occaisionally it finds drive 6 on bootup. Your machine being faster though, it might not work. Other than that, I can't think og anything. -- David Plummer - via FidoNet node 1:140/22 UUCP: ...!alberta!dvinci!weyr!70!David.Plummer Domain: David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG Standard Disclaimers Apply...
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (08/13/90)
In <1990Aug13.225301.23877@uncecs.edu>, urjlew@uncecs.edu (Rostyk Lewyckyj) writes: >Mr. Beats >Can Seagate 1096N drives be used successfully for booting, by computers >from other companies? If so how do they handle the problem that the >C= DOS 2.0 software on the Amiga is unable to cope with? Hmm... in the posting you are replying to, Mr. Beats told you that the Amiga _can_ handle it, and told you how. -larry -- Sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
steveb@cbmvax.commodore.com (Steve Beats) (08/13/90)
In article <754.26C4F281@weyr.FIDONET.ORG> Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) writes: >Alright I would like someone at CBM (Dave Haynie this is probably >right up your alley). > >I recently purchased my 3000 about 2 weeks ago. At that time my >dealer (and boss) allowed change the Quantum 40S for a Seagate 1096N >hard drive (80 megs compared to 40 on the Quantum). Well everything >goes fine util I power down an turn on my system....No autoboot!! >Seems my little newly born 3000 does not like to wait till the hard >drive has initialized. > The problem IS with the Seagate drives. Seagate don`t have any ROMs on their drives so the firmware has to be loaded in from disk. While this is happening, the drive does not respond to SCSI selections at all. Most other drives will at least respond and return a not-ready status. This is acceptable, since the A3000 SCSI driver will wait until the drive is ready. As far as the A3000 is concerned, a drive that does not respond to selection is not even plugged in! However, there is hope on the horizon. The A3000 SCSI driver is based on the same one that was used for the 2091. The 2091 had some jumpers that alter the behaviour of various SCSI options. One of these options is the time spent waiting for drives to power up. Since the A3000 has no SCSI jumpers, we used bits in the non-volatile RAM of the clock instead. Unfortunately, an editor has not yet been written for twiddling these bits. If you feel like doing a bit of programming, take a look at resources/battmembits.[h|i] which should clue you in enough. Steve
urjlew@uncecs.edu (Rostyk Lewyckyj) (08/14/90)
Mr. Beats Can Seagate 1096N drives be used successfully for booting, by computers from other companies? If so how do they handle the problem that the C= DOS 2.0 software on the Amiga is unable to cope with?
steveb@cbmvax.commodore.com (Steve Beats) (08/14/90)
In article <1990Aug13.225301.23877@uncecs.edu> urjlew@uncecs.edu (Rostyk Lewyckyj) writes: > >Mr. Beats >Can Seagate 1096N drives be used successfully for booting, by computers >from other companies? If so how do they handle the problem that the >C= DOS 2.0 software on the Amiga is unable to cope with? Yes, other computers can boot from a Seagate 1096N but they`ll take forever to do it. Also, you won`t find it anywhere near as easy to configure the drive for booting as it is under 2.0. No other computer that I know of has the flexibility of HD installation provided under 2.0. The SCSI driver on the 2091/A590/A3000 is designed to make nearly ALL drives plug-n-play. When you support so many different SCSI drives (with all their attendant wrinkles in SCSI implementation) a few are going to be sub-optimal. If you read my posting properly you will notice that DOS 2.0 CAN cope with booting from a 1096N, it just needs the preferences editor to twiddle the appropriate bits to set Seagate mode on. To re-iterate: if a drive does not respond to selection then it`s as if that drive is not even connected to the SCSI bus! If the drive is not connected it can`t be booted from. There is a very real limit to the amount of time a driver can spend dead-looping waiting for a possibly non-existant drive to spin up. If I made the driver wait >30seconds on every boot cycle I`d have MANY more complaints from owners of other drives about the long boot time. `fraid I can`t make everyone happy all the time! Steve
mk59200@korppi.tut.fi (Kolkka Markku Olavi) (08/14/90)
In article <760.26C795C2@weyr.FIDONET.ORG> Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG ( Randy Coghill) writes: >Dave what I would like is to find out if Commodore is going to fix the >problem (as far as I know there scsi routines are the only ones that >have this timing problem). There's no problem with the A3000 and A2091. The problem is entirely in Seagate drives. The SCSI standard (SCSI-2 at least) specifies a maximum time from poweron to when a device should respond to selection. Why should Commodore (or anyone else) hack their firmware to work with brain-damaged nonstadard devices? That way we wouldn't ever get any standard-conforming SCSI devices. -- Markku Kolkka mk59200@tut.fi
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (08/14/90)
In article <754.26C4F281@weyr.FIDONET.ORG> Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) writes: >Alright I would like someone at CBM (Dave Haynie this is probably >right up your alley). I thought I was the expert on the expansion bus, but, oh well... >What I want to know is can/will this be fixed soon?? According to the software folks, there's a special "Seagate bit" in the A3000's backed up RAM that makes the SCSI device wait the appropriate undue amount of time so that you can boot from Seagate drives. That's about all I know about it; someone else will have to supply a preferences editor or whatever to set this. I suppose a real clever version of HDPrefs would notice that that the drive you're installing is one of these sloppy ones and set that bit by default. >I talked to some person in Customer Support (Yes I called all the way to CBM >in the U.S. from Canada) and she tells me to sell/tradein my brand new 1096N >hard drive!!!!! Now I ask what kinda answer is that? Seagate is one of the >largest manufactuers (if not the largest) of hard disk drives and I am told >that I should sell my HD and get another one? I want this fixed!! Well, Ford is one of the largest automobile manufacturers in the country, yet I always advise folks who own them to sell them and get some kind of real car. But seriously, the problem IS with the drive, not with the computer. All kinds of autoboot SCSI controllers out there either won't boot with these or have some kind of slowdown trick, often via a jumper on the controller, to add delays. Or they penalize folks with Wrens and Quantums by waiting no matter what kind of drive is out there. >Next why does Commodore insist on such a tight timing for boot >devices? From what I understand vertually every SCSI controller >manufactuer will allow you to boot any HD you want, why does CBM not >allow this? Like I said, every SCSI controller has to solve the same problem, one way or another. I think we do it the right way, but I would say that, since I have Quantum drives in all my machines... >Randy Coghill - via FidoNet node 1:140/22 -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Get that coffee outta my face, put a Margarita in its place!
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (08/15/90)
In-Reply-To: message from Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG Well...I'd take their advice and get rid of the SeaGate...and good ridance to bad trash... We'll NEVER, EVER reccomend a Seagate harddrive at our shop. For one thing, we've had nothing but problems with their crappy QC...and secondly, their one year warranty starts the minute it leaves their warehouse. So, all the time that your HD spent sitting at the distributors, or on a dealer's shelf, it was eating up its warranty. Stick with Quantum products...they should be releasing their 435Mb drive for $1500 soon. Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
judd@boulder.Colorado.EDU (JUDD STEPHEN L) (08/15/90)
In article <13796@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >Well, Ford is one of the largest automobile manufacturers in the country, yet >I always advise folks who own them to sell them and get some kind of real car. ^^^^^^^^ Aack! Real Car: 1969 Cougar, >200,000 miles, no major engine repairs, no major interior repairs, original MUFFLER, original owner. All this through some of the worst weather known to mankind. And it still kicks butt! Real car, indeed! ;-) (You will note, of course, that it is for all practical purposes a Ford) A REAL car goes UP a hill as fast as it goes DOWN a hill. A REAL car doesn't produce a whiny, nasal sound as it tries to get up to speed. And a REAL car has more than four cylinders. (I mean, hey, if you can set REAL computer standards, I can set REAL car standards! ;^) Flame ho, cap'n, Flame ho! (<-- Cleverly stolen from Zerg manual) -Steve judd@sgt-york.lanl.gov // "Look out, Race!" \X/ -Johnny Quest P.S. By the way - (I guess I'll have to say it...) "Multimedia" (bleah) is a relatively New Thing here at the Lab. The Amiga would be a very big deal if you could get it some exposure over here. (Ridiculous statement over- heard the other day: "The Mac is supposed to be the best machine for Multimedia...") >-- >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" (Yay!!!)
caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) (08/15/90)
In article <1990Aug13.225301.23877@uncecs.edu> urjlew@uncecs.edu (Rostyk Lewyckyj) writes: >Mr. Beats >Can Seagate 1096N drives be used successfully for booting, by computers >from other companies? If so how do they handle the problem that the >C= DOS 2.0 software on the Amiga is unable to cope with? If you re-read Mr. Beats message, you will see that there is, in fact, support for slow booting drives. It is just that it isn't the __DEFAULT__ setting is all. After all, the Quantum shipped with the machine is more than plenty quick enough to bootup ok. Its just a matter of getting an editor (or more likely) a hack that bangs the control flag to tell the 3000 to twiddle its thumbs to a brain dead drive can boot. Moral of the story: Don't pull out the 'ol flame thrower and turn the gas (propane?) up to max unless you are really sure you are about to create some seriously black toast for a very good reason. :-)'s included for the humor impaired... -=> CAW /////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Christopher A. Wichura caw@miroc.chi.il.us (my amiga) u12401@uicvm.uic.edu (my school account) Please! Do not send mail to my school account unless mail to miroc bounces. I often do not check uicvm.uic.edu for periods in excess of a week. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////////////////////////////////
JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (08/15/90)
In article <760.26C795C2@weyr.FIDONET.ORG>, > >While they do put these nice and fairly >expensive Quantums drives in the systems it is almost irresponsible >(sp) for them to ignore the fact that some users would go with >different brands to suit there needs (for the same price as a Quantum >40 I got the Seagate 1096N which gives me double the storage capacity). If you must use the word "expensive" to describe Quantum drives, it is irresponsible of you to not also include the word "quality." >The point is that Commodore seems to ignore most things and do >entirely as they please and the customer is not supposed to say >anything and live with it. Be honest. You're complaining because you replaced the high-quality hard drive Commodore supplied you, with a slower, less reliable HD and now you complain that, in trying to supply reliable equipment, "Commodore is just doing entirely as it pleases?" One question should be addressed immediately however: Does the 3000 manual list your Seagate 1097N (or whatever) as a recommended or supported drive in the 3000? If so, you have a complaint. If not, please refrain from blaming Commodore. Kurt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || Amigas, Macs, IBM's, C-64's, NeXTs, || || 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || Apple ]['s.... I use 'em all. || || Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || (and in that order too! ;-) || || jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || -----------------------------------------------------------------------
fsset@bach.lerc.nasa.gov (Scott E. Townsend) (08/15/90)
In article <760.26C795C2@weyr.FIDONET.ORG> Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) writes: >Dave what I would like is to find out if Commodore is going to fix the >problem (as far as I know there scsi routines are the only ones that >have this timing problem). While they do put these nice and fairly >expensive Quantums drives in the systems it is almost irrisponsible >(sp) for them to ignore the fact that some users would go with >different brands to suit there needs (for the same price as a Quantum >40 I got the Seagate 1096N which gives me double the storage capacity). > >The point is that Commodore seems to ignore most things and so >entirely as they please and the customer is not supposed to say >anything and live with it....Well I want a working product with the >hardware I have in my system. > >Randy > > >-- >Randy Coghill - via FidoNet node 1:140/22 >UUCP: ...!alberta!dvinci!weyr!70!Randy.Coghill >Domain: Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG >Standard Disclaimers Apply... Seems to me that Commodore has to support their own products, but not necessarily every possible thing you might connect to them. (This is not intended as a flame against Randy) The fact that some third-party drives may not work with Commodore's supplied controller/driver combination is the responsibility of the person who sold you the set-up. They shouldn't sell something that doesn't work. If the drives are that much of a better deal, they should either be sold with a driver that could use Commodore's hardware or as a complete combination. Now I'm not unsympathetic to the problem. I have some ancient Iomega Alpha-10 drives that don't even support the "common" command set. If someone sold me a system with these drives, they had better supply a driver (hardware probably isn't required) Since I bought these drives "raw" a LONG time ago, it's my problem to get them to work. I would hope Commodore would supply some means of talking 'raw" SCSI so I can develop an Iomega-specific driver, and thankfully they do -- SCSIDirect. Just another crazy opinion... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scott Townsend | Phone: 216-433-8101 NASA Lewis Research Center | Mail Stop: 5-11 Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | Email: fsset@bach.lerc.nasa.gov ------------------------------------------------------------------------
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (08/15/90)
In article <24742@boulder.Colorado.EDU> you write: >In article <13796@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) writes: >>Well, Ford is one of the largest automobile manufacturers in the country, yet >>I always advise folks who own them to sell them and get some kind of real car. > ^^^^^^^^ >Aack! >Real Car: 1969 Cougar, >200,000 miles, no major engine repairs, no major >interior repairs, original MUFFLER, original owner. All this through some of >the worst weather known to mankind. And it still kicks butt! >Real car, indeed! >;-) >(You will note, of course, that it is for all practical purposes a Ford) Does it start very often? I'm certainly a veteran of Ford ownership. Aside from living through several owned by my parents in the 60s and early 70s, I had two: a 1961 T-Bird and a 1982 Mercury LN-7 (virtually the same thing as a Ford EXP). The T-Bird was, uh, unusual to drive. Heavy as a tank, but that 300HP could get it moving, as long as they movement tended to be in a straight line. There was an anomoly in the steering that made right turns difficult -- you hit a point where the wheels would just jump about 5-10 degrees to the right of where you intended them to be. Fun stuff, indeed. The worst thing was, under about 40 degrees F, or in any rainy weather, the car was nearly impossible to start. I usually resorted to starting spray in cold weather, since the battery had enough juice for about four good cranks. A brand new battery, mind you. The LN-7 was worse. It did like to start, either. And I used to have to have the carb cleaned every 3-6 months to keep it going at all. Then there was the time, one Christmas day, when this little plastic timing belt broke and did a number on the engine. Or that time when the right front _wheel_ just about fell off on my way home from work. At least the repair shops liked this car. These cars really are for the masses, just like PClones or Commodore C64s. Folks with more discriminating tastes wouldn't own either, unless somehow forced to (financially, etc.) > -Steve >(Ridiculous statement overheard the other day: "The Mac is supposed to be the > best machine for Multimedia...") That's a relatively easy assumption to make, if you read the press. Most people tend to believe that the mainstream press, whether speaking on computers, economics, or politics, is both [a] well informed, and [b] honest. It's a rare find to read an author who actually fits both of these categories in any dicipline. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Get that coffee outta my face, put a Margarita in its place!
steve@iphase.UUCP (Steve Kappes PER) (08/16/90)
>There's no problem with the A3000 and A2091. The problem is entirely in >Seagate drives. The SCSI standard (SCSI-2 at least) specifies a maximum >time from poweron to when a device should respond to selection. Why > Markku Kolkka > mk59200@tut.fi Actually the SCSI-2 spec recommends a time of 10 seconds. The time is a recommendation, not a requirement. I don't remember even a recommendation in SCSI-1 which I believe both the host adapter and drive in question are. Steve Kappes Interphase Corp. uunet!iphase!steve
rps2@amoeba2.UUCP (Rick Stevens) (08/20/90)
In article <760.26C795C2@weyr.FIDONET.ORG> Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) writes: >Dave what I would like is to find out if Commodore is going to fix the >problem (as far as I know there scsi routines are the only ones that >have this timing problem). While they do put these nice and fairly >expensive Quantums drives in the systems it is almost irrisponsible >(sp) for them to ignore the fact that some users would go with >different brands to suit there needs (for the same price as a Quantum >40 I got the Seagate 1096N which gives me double the storage capacity). > >The point is that Commodore seems to ignore most things and so >entirely as they please and the customer is not supposed to say >anything and live with it....Well I want a working product with the >hardware I have in my system. > >Randy First off, it's not a Commodore glitch, it's Seagate's. Seagate drives do not fully conform to the SCSI specification. If they did, the drives would show up as "not ready" on the bus after the specified bus delay time, and the 3000 would wait for them to go ready. The problem is that the Seagate drives don't show up on the bus AT ALL (meaning that, as far as the computer is concerned, they don't exist) until they load their firmware images from the drive platters themselves, which means that the drive has to spin up before the drives even show up as "not ready". CBM's SCSI routines go out and scan the bus. They see no drives, hence no autoboot. Now, CBM could put in a delay to wait longer before querying the bus, but that gets around a third-party manufacturer's problem. Sure, it'd be nice, but it's not necessary. This is not meant to flame anyone, CBM, Seagate, or Randy. It is just to point out what the problem actually is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Stevens, Small Scale Systems of Southern California sysop@xyclone.uucp | rps2@amoeba2.uucp | CIS: 75006,1355 | BIX: smallscale "I'm tellin' ya, Valiant! Da whole ting stinks like yesterday's diapers!" - Baby Herman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
steve@iphase.UUCP (Steve Kappes PER) (08/22/90)
In article <rps2.1510@amoeba2.UUCP> rps2@amoeba2.UUCP (Rick Stevens) writes: >In article <760.26C795C2@weyr.FIDONET.ORG> Randy.Coghill@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Randy Coghill) writes: >>Dave what I would like is to find out if Commodore is going to fix the >>problem (as far as I know there scsi routines are the only ones that >First off, it's not a Commodore glitch, it's Seagate's. Seagate drives >do not fully conform to the SCSI specification. If they did, the drives >would show up as "not ready" on the bus after the specified bus delay >time, and the 3000 would wait for them to go ready. > Rick Stevens, Small Scale Systems of Southern California The Seagates are not in violation of the spec. The spec recommends a time of 10 seconds but devices are not required to respond to selection in that time. This problem is just one of those SCSI things system people have to watch out for. For instance, what synchronous transfer speed does the 3000 negotiate with a wren V, VI, or VII? Steve Kappes Interphase Corp. !uunet!iphase!steve
sjo@cci632.UUCP (Steve Owens) (08/24/90)
In article <229@iphase.UUCP>, steve@iphase.UUCP (Steve Kappes PER) writes: > >There's no problem with the A3000 and A2091. The problem is entirely in > >Seagate drives. The SCSI standard (SCSI-2 at least) specifies a maximum > >time from poweron to when a device should respond to selection. Why > > Markku Kolkka > > mk59200@tut.fi > > Actually the SCSI-2 spec recommends a time of 10 seconds. The time is > a recommendation, not a requirement. I don't remember even a recommendation > in SCSI-1 which I believe both the host adapter and drive in question are. Excuse me if I'm being ignorant, but..... I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not simply use a DIP switch set or jumper set to allow the customization by the user? Do it by powers of two, with the base being two seconds, in order to allow any power-up time required by the drive. If required, it could be done for each HD in the subsystem, or it can be done for the worst case drive in the entire system. And before someone jumps down my throat saying "That's the drive manufacturer's problem," why not do it on both ends? This would allow the user total flexibility to configure his system the way he wants it. Obviously there must be industry-wide recommendations for the default settings, but at least it would be easy to change. > Steve Kappes Interphase Corp. uunet!iphase!steve SJO