drtiller@uokmax.uucp (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (08/14/90)
I understand C= wanting to support their retailers by shutting down mail order
competition, but they ARE screwing quite a few of us. I live in Norman, OK
and a quick call to C= will reveal that I have two choices for local dealers:
PC Tech - No Amigas on display, one in stock (I have no idea how old), NO
technical support, and a warranted reputation for dishonesty (TWO
of my friends have been screwed by their sales staff, one with a
used {abused} "new" printer, and the other with a promise of
repair work while under warranty that stretched so long that it
ended out of the warranty period and he was forced to pay an
exorbitant price to get his PC back! No one in the Oklahoma Users
group will go near them, and C= refuses to pull their plug.
Software Etc. - They only stock 500s at $599 but will "order" 2000s for (get
this) $1999 without monitor. I didn't even bother checking on 3000s
since the list they use for charging (yes prepaid) for orders is over
three years old (hence the ridiculous charges and the salesperson's
comment that he'd been there 4 years and no one had ever bought a
2000).
I refuse to deal with such businesses and have resorted to mail order. Now C=
in its infinite wisdom had decided that they won't warranty mail order goods.
Great for retailers, pretty s**tty for those of us caught 3 hours from the
nearest reputable Amiga dealer. Since 1985 I have mail ordered over $10,000
worth of merchandise, none of which could I get locally. I think if I can't
go a reasonable distance for an item, I deserve the right to mail order it WITH
A WARRANTY (and not at "suggested retail price" 35% higher than everyone else
from the manufacturer as I would have to do to order from C=). Within the next
week we WILL have an actual dealer opening in the area, something the several
hundred Amiga users in Oklahoma City have been begging for for years. Until
then we have been relegated to obtain our favorite computer via mail order. I
feel certain that there are others in this country who are still in the same
situation we have been in for years, and who SHOULD NOT be subjected to such
inconsiderations at C= is placing on them. I would like to see C= arrange for
an order line for those people out of range of legitimate Amiga dealers to
order at a reasonable price (near actual retail).
I purchased a 1950 through mail order in April and have had problems with it
and its THREE successors, each of which were returned to the mail order house
because there was no local authorized repair center. When the FOURTH one
arrived DOA, I found out that a local repair center had just recently been
authorized by C=, so I was thrilled to deliver my monitor to them rather than
foot the bill for yet another return trip to the mail order place (at over $50
a whap - which meant I could have spent far less time and money by taking a
road trip to Dallas and buying it there and hauling it back,hindsight you know)
They checked with C= and were told that it wasn't under warranty because I had
mail ordered it. Well, after I returned to my normal color, I called their
customer service number and they told me that it was in fact under warranty
(breath of relief). The repair shop found a cracked circuit board was the
problem and C= said they didn't have them in stock so I should ship it back
to them. WHOA, I said, clutching the warranty in my hand. It said that all
I was responsible for doing was to deliver the monitor to an authorized repair
center and that was exactly what I had done. I was tired of paying for THEIR
faulty monitors and was ready to insist that they pay any transportation bills
when they "graciously" volunteered to ship me a brand new one and issue a UPS
"will call" for the broken one at the service shop. That was the week before
last, and they still haven't shipped it and I understand UPS might go on strike
tonight at midnight, extending my over THREE MONTH nightmare with this monitor.
Had I had a local dealer, none of this would have occurred or been necessary.
But without the ability to mail order, I wouldn't have the over $7000 computer
system (sans monitor) that sits before me because I would have been S.O.L.
when it came to getting any of it.
Commodore, don't spite those of us with no legitimate dealers, don't relegate
us to the PC or Apple world. We want to partake of the Amiga as much as any
other person, but by cutting off our only source of your products, you are
contributing to the Amiga desert (hence our users group the Oklahoma Amiga
Computer EnthusiastS - OACES). Surely you can come up with a better way to
support your dealers without screwing those unfortunate enough to not live
near one!
_______ __________
_/____) ' __ /_/ / ' / / __ _ "N.I.N.J.A.J.I.S."-Me
/ \___/__/___/ |_ /__/__/__/_/_-_/__/_/ The Displaced Razorback.
___________________________________________/ Founder: IDGAFF Ltd.
The Amiga Computer - "...a more fiendish disputant than the Great
Hyperbolic Omni-Cognate Neutron Wrangler of Ciceronicus Twelve..."
-D.Adams; Well, almost.JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (08/14/90)
There are two reasons C= is halting mail order:
1) It looks unprofessional. Can you mail-order Macs or genuine IBM's?
2) All the trouble caused by shifty mail-order firms such as Montgomery
Grant have caused C= no end ouf trouble.
>I understand C= wanting to support their retailers by shutting down
>mail order competition, but they ARE screwing quite a few of us.
Granted, you may not have a reputable Amiga dealer near you, but C=
is in no position to establish their own store right there. C=
depends on independent dealers just like Apple and IBM do. I know
this doesn't solve your problem, but I don't see an easy solution.
>I would like to see C= arrange for an order line for those people out
>of range of legitimate Amiga dealers to order at a reasonable price
>(near actual retail).
Good idea, but not an EASY solution. I too would like to see such an
option, but don't expect to see it any time soon. :-(
>I purchased a 1950 through mail order in April and have had problems
>with it and its THREE successors, each of which were returned to the
>mail order house because there was no local authorized repair center.
>When the FOURTH one arrived DOA, I found out that a local repair center
>had just recently been authorized by C=, so I was thrilled to deliver
>my monitor to them rather than foot the bill for yet another return
>trip to the mail order place (at over $50 a whap).
Care to meniton which mail-order firm this was? I have not heard
NEARLY this many bad things about the 1950, and am not at all sure
that Commodore quality control is responsible for your bad monitors.
>The repair shop found a cracked circuit board was the problem and C=
>said they didn't have them in stock.
As stated in this area previously, it's a new product, and C= has not
had the time to build up a supply of repair parts yet.
>They "graciously" volunteered to ship me a brand new one and issue a
>UPS "will call" for the broken one at the service shop. That was the
>week before last, and they still haven't shipped it and I understand
>UPS might go on strike tonight at midnight, extending my over THREE
>MONTH nightmare with this monitor.
First of all, I think C= went above and beyond the call of duty offering
to ship you a new one right out of stock. Your "3 month nightmare"
was caused by the mail-order firm, not Commodore. Secondly, UPS didn't
go on strike, so that's not a factor here.
>Had I had a local dealer, none of this would have occurred or been
>necessary. But without the ability to mail order, I wouldn't have the
>over $7000 computer system (sans monitor) that sits before me because
>I would have been S.O.L. when it came to getting any of it.
>Commodore, don't spite those of us with no legitimate dealers, don't
>relegate us to the PC or Apple world.
As stated above, Commodore cannot just go and make a dealer in your
town. Neither can Apple or IBM. It's the current market that dictates
whether a dealer goes into business. Heck, if you see a market there,
open your own dealership. (ok, maybe impractical, but if you won't
open a dealership, maybe you can see why others won't either.)
> _______ __________
> _/____) ' __ /_/ / ' / / __ _ "N.I.N.J.A.J.I.S."-Me
> / \___/__/___/ |_ /__/__/__/_/_-_/__/_/ The Displaced Razorback.
> ___________________________________________/ Founder: IDGAFF Ltd.
Kurt
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|| Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || Amigas, Macs, IBM's, C-64's, NeXTs, ||
|| 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || Apple ]['s.... I use 'em all. ||
|| Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || (and in that order too! ;-) ||
|| jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------||
|| jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe ||
-----------------------------------------------------------------------es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (08/15/90)
In article <90226.125027JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu> JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) writes: >There are two reasons C= is halting mail order: > > 1) It looks unprofessional. Can you mail-order Macs or genuine IBM's? > > 2) All the trouble caused by shifty mail-order firms such as Montgomery > Grant have caused C= no end ouf trouble. > >>I understand C= wanting to support their retailers by shutting down >>mail order competition, but they ARE screwing quite a few of us. > Mail-order stores can be problems but Commodore SHOULD let dealers do mail-order, i.e. allow mail-order houses which are also dealers with a local store. At least that way Commodore can regulate the quality of the mail-order store. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu Tell NewTek that my bread is already toasted and they better be coming out with a microwave!
<LEEK@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> (08/15/90)
In article <90226.125027JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu>, JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) says: > >Granted, you may not have a reputable Amiga dealer near you, but C= >is in no position to establish their own store right there. C= >depends on independent dealers just like Apple and IBM do. I know >this doesn't solve your problem, but I don't see an easy solution. > >>I would like to see C= arrange for an order line for those people out >>of range of legitimate Amiga dealers to order at a reasonable price >>(near actual retail). > >good idea, but not an EASY solution. I too would like to see such an >option, but don't expect to see it any time soon. :-( What about allowing SELECTED dealers to do mail ordering ?? I mean C= can pick dealers that have good customers supports (ie no/low complains and nice to customers) and let them do mail ordering. So if the dealers want to be on this list, they'll have to be really really nice. > >> _______ __________ >> _/____) ' __ /_/ / ' / / __ _ "N.I.N.J.A.J.I.S."-Me >> / \___/__/___/ |_ /__/__/__/_/_-_/__/_/ The Displaced Razorback. >> ___________________________________________/ Founder: IDGAFF Ltd. > > Kurt >-- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >|| Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || Amigas, Macs, IBM's, C-64's, NeXTs, || >|| 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || Apple ]['s.... I use 'em all. || >|| Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || (and in that order too! ;-) || >|| jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| >|| jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- K. C. Lee (No fancy disclaimers required.)
mrr@mrsoft.Newport.RI.US (Mark Rinfret) (08/15/90)
>In article <1990Aug13.203535.32528@uokmax.uucp> drtiller@uokmax.uucp (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >I understand C= wanting to support their retailers by shutting down mail order >competition, but they ARE screwing quite a few of us. >... >Commodore, don't spite those of us with no legitimate dealers, don't relegate >us to the PC or Apple world. We want to partake of the Amiga as much as any >other person, but by cutting off our only source of your products, you are >contributing to the Amiga desert (hence our users group the Oklahoma Amiga >Computer EnthusiastS - OACES). Surely you can come up with a better way to >support your dealers without screwing those unfortunate enough to not live >near one! > Well stated, Rick. I bought my first Amiga (A1000) from StarFlite Telemarketing back in '86 and my 2500/030 this year from Go Amigo!, taking advantage of their A1000 buyback plan. I refuse to do business with our "local" dealer (about 45 minutes away) whose prime motivation appears to be greed (list prices on almost everything, last time I checked). Had I not had the opportunity to buy mail-order, I would have grudgingly switched over to the Macintosh. Mark -- ################################################################# # Mark R. Rinfret, MRSoft Home: 401-846-7639 # # mrr@mrsoft, galaxia!mrsoft!mrr Work: 401-849-9930 x301 # #################################################################
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (08/18/90)
In-Reply-To: message from mrr@mrsoft.Newport.RI.US While I respect your opinion, I must disagree with you... I work at the only Amiga dealership south of San Antonio (Computer-Ease), and we have been hit heavy by mailorder houses such as Montgomery Grant. You're not seeing the whole picture, and while I sympathize with you for not having a local dealer, alot of the mailorder houses are not on the up and up. There has been serial number shaving, European machines being imported and converted for use in the US, and other stuff...And don't think this is just Commodore. How many authorized Apple Mac or IBM mailorder houses are there? Some of the problem is with buyers as well...we've had several locals purchase Amigas mailorder, and then come crying to us when something goes wrong with it...and they bought mailorder for one thing, to save a few bucks. Look what it gets them... Commodore wants to keep dealers and customers face to face...even though dealers are scarce, things are getting better. Connecting Point, and now ComputerLand, and another I can't remember (only 13 stores I believe)... As long as there are mailorder houses like Montgomery Grant, more and more of the smaller dealers like ourselves will have no choice but to shut down...then when all the small dealers are gone, even fewer people have access to the service and support they need. My boss bought his A1000 mailorder because there wasn't a dealer close...that's why he opened the shop, and also because the mailorder house treated him like just another number. Some people are in favor of mailorder machines...but they don't always take into account who this may be hurting. Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (08/21/90)
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: | |I work at the only Amiga dealership south of San Antonio (Computer-Ease), and |we have been hit heavy by mailorder houses such as Montgomery Grant. You're |not seeing the whole picture, and while I sympathize with you for not having a |local dealer, alot of the mailorder houses are not on the up and up. | |There has been serial number shaving, European machines being imported and |converted for use in the US, and other stuff...And don't think this is just |Commodore. How many authorized Apple Mac or IBM mailorder houses are there? | |Some of the problem is with buyers as well...we've had several locals purchase |Amigas mailorder, and then come crying to us when something goes wrong with |it...and they bought mailorder for one thing, to save a few bucks. Look what |it gets them... | I think a good solution would be as someone else has suggested (sorry I forgot who), that CBM allow mailorder, but the mailorder house has to be a legitimate dealer with a real local retail outlet, like your dealership. This would be good for everone. 1> The dealers would be able to sell a larger volume, which means more bucks for them, and 2> they would be able to lower their prices accordingly, good for local customers. 3> People without local dealers could mail order from you and that would be good for them (and the local dealer). {an aside comment to the person who said that mail order 'looks' bad, and you would never find a major company like Apple or IBM selling mail order: I just saw an ad in computer shopper selling Sun workstations, does that mean that Sun is not a major company?} -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
rnm@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Marsanyi) (08/25/90)
I can understand both sides of this discussion, both Commodore's reasoning in not wanting to deal with mail order and stranded customers' problems with not getting support. I assume that C= has a mechanism for pre-approv- ing dealerships based on support, repair capabilities, expertise, $ level of projected sales, and so on, and I know from experience that there are many mail order places (like Briwall) that ought to qualify by any stan- dard, other than lack of physical premises for someone to walk into. Per- haps C= could offer certification to qualified mail order places, meaning the warranty would be honoured for equipment purchased there? This would certainly be a large plus for those reputable mail order places who could use it as a marketing tool ... --rbt (robert@f24.n125.z1.fidonet.ORG is an alternative address, preferred)
jhc00614@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (08/25/90)
Why this won't work? The CBM dealership network, more so than for
other computers, is made up of a high proportion of independent dealerships
that can no way compete if mail order was given the green light by CBM.
Also, it would be another show of bad faith by CBM to dealerships all
across the country. After all, they've hung w/ the computer through the lean
years while the big chains ignored or dropped the Amiga (like our local
CBM computers did). And now we're going to screw them again?
This is not the way for CBM to gain legitimacy. Legtitimizing mail order
Amiga's would be a sign of the truly desperate.
Jason
(CBM Computers is a midsized chain in IL. CBM does not stand for commodore
in my above example.)sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (08/28/90)
jhc00614@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > Why this won't work? The CBM dealership network, more so than for >other computers, is made up of a high proportion of independent dealerships >that can no way compete if mail order was given the green light by CBM. I see no problem if the mail order places and the local dealerships were the *same place*. In other words, allow local dealers to also sell by mail. It would boost their sales by spreading their market from one local area to the entire US and beyond in some cases. It would be good for us end users because it would mean that the dealers would compete against each other for lower mail order prices and by selling a large volume through the mail, they could lower their prices without having to go broke. > Also, it would be another show of bad faith by CBM to dealerships all >across the country. After all, they've hung w/ the computer through the lean >years while the big chains ignored or dropped the Amiga (like our local >CBM computers did). And now we're going to screw them again? If Commodore did as I suggested above, your arguments go down the drain. How would they be 'screwing' the dealers by opening up a huge market for them? -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
steve@digibd (Steve Wahl) (09/01/90)
My opinion only (of course, I just wanted to share it): Those who complain about C= shutting down mail order sales of Amigas, and who offer the fact that there is NO close dealer (or no close, competent dealer) as a reason they need mail order, could be missing a point. Perhaps there is no close dealer (or competent dealer) because it's not possible to open a dealership, invest the time and money to know enough about the products you are selling to actually be of help to your customers, and make a proffit -- while still being able to compete (price wise) with high-volume mail order outfits. What do you think? The Amigas are complex machines, and users need support, especially if they're going to do more with the machine than stick the latest game disk in the drive and shoot all the aliens (or whatever the latest craze is). It can be hard to supply enough support over long distance phone lines. If there is no dealer in a region now, and many people buy mail order, and end up giving the Amigas a bad reputation due to the poor support, what do you think that does to the chances of succeeding in opening up a new dealership in the area? Yes, I know, some people here on Usenet say they have received exelent support from certain mail order dealers. But Amiga users on usenet tend to be much more computer-literate than I immagine the average Amiga user to be. Most of us here know almost instinctively how to isolate a problem and then have that part fixed or replaced, software or hardware. Does the average user? I guess I'm raising two questions: Would there be more GOOD local dealers if they didn't have to compete with mail order? And can mail order dealers provide enough support to average and below average users? --> Steve -- Steve Wahl uunet!digibd!steve DigiBoard Inc. St. Louis Park, MN (612) 922-8055
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (09/05/90)
steve@digibd (Steve Wahl) writes: |Perhaps there is no close dealer (or competent dealer) because it's |not possible to open a dealership, invest the time and money to know |enough about the products you are selling to actually be of help to |your customers, and make a proffit -- while still being able to |compete (price wise) with high-volume mail order outfits. |I guess I'm raising two questions: Would there be more GOOD local |dealers if they didn't have to compete with mail order? And can mail |order dealers provide enough support to average and below average |users? I guess I can safely assume you've always lived in a big city, eh Steve? Try moving out into a small town about 200 miles from a big town and buying an Amiga. Or an IBM even. You can't. Heck the town where my brother lives doesn't even have a McDonalds yet. It's places like these that need mail order. The few mail order places I have checked into do their own repair work too. Which is good, since no one wants to drive 200 miles to get their Amiga fixed. -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) (09/06/90)
>|I guess I'm raising two questions: Would there be more GOOD local >|dealers if they didn't have to compete with mail order? How about this: "Authorized dealers may sell mailorder to any customer whose zipcode does not match the zipcode of another authorized dealer." Or some such. -- Darren -- --- Darren New --- Grad Student --- CIS --- Univ. of Delaware --- ----- Network Protocols, Graphics, Programming Languages, Formal Description Techniques (esp. Estelle), Coffee -----
BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz (09/07/90)
In article <29644@nigel.ee.udel.edu>, new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) writes: >>|I guess I'm raising two questions: Would there be more GOOD local >>|dealers if they didn't have to compete with mail order? > > How about this: > > "Authorized dealers may sell mailorder to any customer whose zipcode > does not match the zipcode of another authorized dealer." > > Or some such. -- Darren I don't like that at all. Our local authorized dealer is a criminal. How about: "Authorization indicates that we believe a dealer is reputable. If you find this not to be the case, please contact us immediately, and we will boil them in sump oil. You may buy whatever you like by any method you like from any authorized dealer you like, and we promise not to inconvenience the customer at all, only crooked dealers." Regards Alan