ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/20/90)
I went to the Federal Computer Conference today. Commodore had a
major boot and a full-page ad in the show program. They had A3000's
running Unix V.4, X windows, and Open Look. They were running the
Penn and Teller promo video for the Video Toaster, and it was drawing
a crowd. They were handing out pens; I got one.
By The Way...
NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for
demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a
brochure.
It's in a box that looks just the same size and shape as the
SPARCstation 1, but it's black (like the cube). It's got a 105 Meg HD
and a 2.88 meg floppy drive; no more optical. It has 8 Meg RAM
standard. It still has the 17" monitor with 4 shades of grey. With
the reduced disk space, they no longer include the works of
Shakespeare or Mathematica (still available but not included),
otherwise the software looks the same. It's got one expansion
connector that appears to be for connecting the video display
circuitry (therefore, it's now upgradable, and NeXT has been promising
color for a while now).
The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list
price is $4995.
If I speculate the price of an A3000 plus 68040 plus 8 meg RAM plus
Viking 1 monitor plus Unix, I seem to get a number higher than that.
I don't mean to be a doom-sayer, but I don't see much reason to buy an
A3000 to run Unix when the NeXTstation looks the way it does. And
it's got the DSP, the sound, and it runs Lotus - the brochure talks
almost as much about Lotus Improv(tm) as it does about the rest of the
machine.
While Commodore was pushing their low-end architecture up into the
high end, the high end architectures have come down to meet them. I
don't want to be a doomsayer, but I don't think the A3000 will compete
on their terms. I don't know what Commodore could do to compete.
Maybe they'd better stick to the low end. Or maybe Commodore has a
new high-end up their sleeve.
--
First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / /
\\ / /
Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o
Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/martens@python.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jeff Martens) (09/20/90)
In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: [ ... speaking of the new NeXts ] >The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >price is $4995. I think this is exactly what Sun is advertizing the SLC for. Looks like a bit of competition, but if the interface is no better than on the original NeXt box, I'll take the Sun. >If I speculate the price of an A3000 plus 68040 plus 8 meg RAM plus >Viking 1 monitor plus Unix, I seem to get a number higher than that. >I don't mean to be a doom-sayer, but I don't see much reason to buy an >A3000 to run Unix when the NeXTstation looks the way it does. And >it's got the DSP, the sound, and it runs Lotus - the brochure talks >almost as much about Lotus Improv(tm) as it does about the rest of the >machine. Commodore can always drop their prices. No point in doing that, though, as long as the 3000s are selling. [ ... ] -- -- Jeff (martens@cis.ohio-state.edu) Currently popular among Iraqi tank commanders: little yellow signs proclaiming "Child on board."
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (09/20/90)
In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >I went to the Federal Computer Conference today. Commodore had a >NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for >demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a >brochure. > >It's in a box that looks just the same size and shape as the >SPARCstation 1, but it's black (like the cube). It's got a 105 Meg HD >and a 2.88 meg floppy drive; no more optical. It has 8 Meg RAM >standard. It still has the 17" monitor with 4 shades of grey. With >the reduced disk space, they no longer include the works of >Shakespeare or Mathematica (still available but not included), >otherwise the software looks the same. It's got one expansion >connector that appears to be for connecting the video display >circuitry (therefore, it's now upgradable, and NeXT has been promising >color for a while now). > >The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >price is $4995. > Are you sure that the 040 comes on the $5,000 model? I think that is a mix-up, either on your part or on NeXTs. I read on NewsBytes (the directory has been wiped out and it is illegal for me to post it anyway) that there were several new models including a low-end version for $5,000 and a high-end one with color for $13,000 or so. Giving the 040 for 5K is a drop in price from the 030 price! Maybe it is like the Mac setup, how much ram? how large a hard drive? keyboard? 8) -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu *Iraq += *Kuwait; NumCountries--; and by popular demand... free(Kuwait);
dksnsr@nmt.edu (Dr. Mosh) (09/20/90)
Are you sure that isn't $4995 just for the machine... does it include the monitor, HD? That's an incredible price for the NeXT if it is correct.. The Sparc SLC may be cheap... but it don't come with no drive... -- ========================= M.E.R.L. - Mosh Effects Research Laboratories Dr. Mosh | (505) 835-6356, 6351, 6349 dksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu | "The best way to beat the system is to own it..." Computer Science | -Bob Broilo (Some drugger)
jeh@sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) (09/20/90)
In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for >demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a >brochure. > >The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >price is $4995. Is this the _real_ list price or is it like the "list price" of the original NeXT cube, which turned out to be what most people call the "educational discount" price? Ed Hanway uunet!sisd!jeh
erick@CSUFresno.EDU (Eric Keisler) (09/20/90)
In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for >demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a >brochure. > >It's in a box that looks just the same size and shape as the >SPARCstation 1, but it's black (like the cube). It's got a 105 Meg HD >and a 2.88 meg floppy drive; no more optical. It has 8 Meg RAM >standard. It still has the 17" monitor with 4 shades of grey. With >the reduced disk space, they no longer include the works of >Shakespeare or Mathematica (still available but not included), >otherwise the software looks the same. It's got one expansion >connector that appears to be for connecting the video display >circuitry (therefore, it's now upgradable, and NeXT has been promising >color for a while now). > >The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >price is $4995. > >If I speculate the price of an A3000 plus 68040 plus 8 meg RAM plus >Viking 1 monitor plus Unix, I seem to get a number higher than that. >I don't mean to be a doom-sayer, but I don't see much reason to buy an >A3000 to run Unix when the NeXTstation looks the way it does. And >it's got the DSP, the sound, and it runs Lotus - the brochure talks >almost as much about Lotus Improv(tm) as it does about the rest of the >machine. I've noticed a flurry of queries about the new NeXTs. I recently got a bunch of info on them so here's a synopsis: The NeXTStation as described above is indeed as decribed above. It *does* come with a 68040 - *all* the NeXTs do now. The expansion connector mentioned above *is not* for video, but is the DSP port. Two other bundled packages of the NeXTStation are offered: One with a 340mb drive ($6,995) and one with the 400dpi NeXT laser printer ($6,790). A color version of the NeXTStation is offered. Is is the same as the mono system, but supports 16 bit color. The NeXTStation Color system can display 4096 colors at once on its color MegaPixle display. Prices: $7995 for 105mb system, $10,995 for 340mb system, $12,790 for 340mb and NeXT laser. NeXT also has similar offerings for the good 'ol NeXT cube. Note that *all* of these systems are *powerful*: the 25mhz 68040 churns out 15MIPs. A 25MHZ 56001 DSP is also included. All the bundles stated above are complete systems and include everything you need to get started: disk, memory, monitor, mouse, floppy drive, systems software, and *applications*. The *real* news is NeXT's annoucement of the NeXT Dimension graphics board. This thing looks *real* interesting. 32bits per pixel (16.7 million colors plus alpha channels), 1120x832 resolution, i869 33mhz RISC engine, 30,000 polys/sec, image compression processor,4mb VRAM, double buffering, NTSC in and out, PAL compatability option, genlock, S-Video in and out, RGB out. NeXT offers three options: A Dimension equipped Cube system bundle: $14,115 (8mb RAM, 105mb) and $17,615 (16mb ram, 340mb disk). The board itself costs around $7,115. It looks like it can *only* go in a NeXT Cube system. As I understand it, one of the things this puppy can do is capture live full-color full-motion video, compress it, record it to disk - in real time! They mention being able to store 60 minutes of video on a 340mb drive. The captured video can be played back in real time also. There's much more, but I'm sure you'll be reading much about it real soon. Now think about the implications... A NeXT Dimension system has all the ingredients for an awesome mediastation: 32bit accelerated graphics, full motion video processing, video interfaces, CD quality sound, fast processors, and so on. Also, remember that Steve Jobs has financial ties to PIXAR, so be on the lookout for a RenderMan modeller/renderer engine for this system RSN. What impact will all these NeXTs have on the Amiga? I don't see them as a major threat. The Amiga's strengths as a low cost media system still compare favorably. Remember, the NeXTStation systems have *no* NTSC outputs. The Dimension systems are *way* above the cost of an Amiga with a Toaster (or whatever). Also, NeXT software is much more expensive than Amiga stuff, not to mention that there's comparatively few applications available for NeXTs at the moment. Lastly, the NeXTs all run Unix. Now, I'm a Unix freak myself, and the NeXT does have a pretty intuitive user interface, but getting Joe (or Joan) Blow consumer to plunk down major bucks for a Unix system is a major hurdle. Think about it. How many computer retailers can you think of that *really* could provide useful support for Unix systems? NeXT has alot of hurdles to overcome before the industry *really* notices an impact. The new NeXTS simply remove just one of the hurdles. I'd say in 2 (maybe 3) years that NeXT will *finally* be making major penetration into the consumer markets - but by then CBM will probably have rolled out *it's* 68080 based 30MIP home computer for $1,995 ( ;-> ) --- eric
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/21/90)
In article <83786@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Jeff Martens <martens@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: >In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: > > [ ... speaking of the new NeXts ] > >>The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >>price is $4995. > >I think this is exactly what Sun is advertizing the SLC for. Looks >like a bit of competition, but if the interface is no better than on >the original NeXt box, I'll take the Sun. Yes, similar price: the Sparcstation SLC is a 17" monitor (B&W vs 4 greys), 8 Meg, SunOS (vs Mach 2.?), no hard drive (vs. 105 Meg). The NeXT also has WriteNow (WYSIWYG word processor), Lotus Improv spreadsheet (included free; it's a special offer until end of 1990), between 3 and 7 more MIPS (depending on who you believe). The NeXTstation display can be upgraded to color, or can be bought in color configuration for about $3000 more. The SLC is permanently monochrome. If you prefer the Sun, then that's fine, it's a nice machine. It has scads more applications for business, engineering, scientific, and vertical markets. But I think the SPARCstation 1 (or that other new sparc I can't remember what it's called) is a closer comparison in features. Then the NeXTstation has a much lower price. Another point: the Gov't has declared that all Unix systems it shall purchase shall be POSIX. AT&T V.4 is; Mach, and therefore the NeXT, isn't. SunOS 4.? is/will be. That's a pretty large market to lose, I think... -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/21/90)
In article <1990Sep20.052129.17993@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >>The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >>price is $4995. >> > Are you sure that the 040 comes on the $5,000 model? I'm sure. I have the brochure right here, there's a picture of the open pizza box. The floppy on the side, the hard disk, the 68040. The whole brochure talks about this one machine, really. Oh, it also talks about how old NeXT cube owners can upgrade for $1600 to the 68040, just like the 'station. And the price is on big black and white letters on the back: $4995. And that includes the 17" grey scale Megapixel display, a 105 Meg hard drive, 8 Meg of system RAM, keyboard, mouse, and software. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (09/21/90)
In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for >demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a >brochure. >The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >price is $4995. Not a bad price. Not really that amazing, either. >If I speculate the price of an A3000 plus 68040 plus 8 meg RAM plus >Viking 1 monitor plus Unix, I seem to get a number higher than that. OK, so the Viking 1 (eg, Moniterm) monitor is, by comparison, overpriced. I don't see any 68040 systems shipping just yet, either from Next or as an upgrade to the 3000. I would guess a basic 68040 board for the 3000 would go for $750-$1000, with a chunk of external cache it might hit $1500. >I don't mean to be a doom-sayer, but I don't see much reason to buy an >A3000 to run Unix when the NeXTstation looks the way it does. You might also ask why would someone buy a NeXT when the A3000 looks the way it does. If you think a NeXT will offer that much more, you're confused. >And it's got the DSP, the sound The NeXT sound capabilities aren't anything special. The DSP is a nice built-in, but it's a rather weak DSP. It's good for sound processing, but it's 24 bit fixed point math isn't going to do your imaging any favors. If you want some real DSP, talk to Eric Lavitsky about his "Bonsai" board for the Zorro II bus; this puppy has two high speed AT&T DSPs that support floating point. It's an extra thousand or so, but my feeling is that most of the NeXT customers have no immediate use for sound processing. If the 56001 was that much of a success, NeXT would be supplying its new machines with the 96002. As it stands, a NeXT requires a 56001, just in case, and at this point they're dirt cheap. >and it runs Lotus - the brochure talks almost as much about Lotus Improv(tm) >as it does about the rest of the machine. While it can do something with Lotus 1-2-3 file, they're claiming that Lotus Improv is NOT really Lotus 1-2-3 compatible. Most spreadsheets these days read Lotus 1-2-3 files, so it would sound like the Lotus name is about all you get with Improv. >While Commodore was pushing their low-end architecture up into the >high end, the high end architectures have come down to meet them. One of the thing that folks seem to get confused about is what constitutes a high end vs. low end architecture. For example, the NeXT has always been a low end, or more properly, a PC-Class architecture. The new machines still are. They just packaged it as a workstation and ran UNIX on it. But it's a far cry from the Workstation class 68030 machines that used to be made by Sun and are still made by HP and Sony. It's also quite similar to the Amiga 3000, performance-wise. >I don't want to be a doomsayer, but I don't think the A3000 will compete >on their terms. I don't know what Commodore could do to compete. Well, if you start to show me that Suns or HPs are dropping down on the head of the A3000, maybe I'll get nervous. But NeXT has been and still is a PC technology machine. There are some cool ideas in the NeXTStep software. But there's not all that much NeXTStep software. The largest market for UNIX + GUI software today is SunOS (reference: Personal Workstation), which is merging with AT&T UNIX, X, OpenLook, etc. Which is exactly what the A3000 UNIX runs. Which means, thanks to ABI, that UNIX SV.4 based SunOS will be binary compatible with A3000s and quite a few other 680x0 family machines out there. NeXT will be on its own. NeXT has done suprisingly well on their own, but I don't believe they can compete with the combined volume of several system vendors. >First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) (09/21/90)
>In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >>NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for >>demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a >>brochure. >>The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >>price is $4995. With all this talk about the NeXT, I wonder if anyone read the same article I did recently (released by UPI I think, I can't recall). In it some "industry expert" or another estimated NeXT would actually sell only 8,000 machines in a year (either current year or next year, I can't find the article). I was wondering if these figures were possibly accurate? (I still think I must have read it wrong). If so, you have to be impressed with their PR skills. The NeXT has, in my experience, greater name recognition than the Amiga and has gotten lots of media exposure. Richard
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (09/21/90)
In article <1990Sep20.162641.1723@CSUFresno.EDU> erick@zimmer.CSUFresno.EDU (Eric Keisler) writes: >Note that *all* of these systems are *powerful*: the 25mhz 68040 churns out >15MIPs. Motorola rates the chip itself as being capable of more like 20 Dhrystone MIPS. (But then, we all should know by now what to think about MIPS figures, yes?) > Also, remember that Steve Jobs has financial ties to PIXAR, so >be on the lookout for a RenderMan modeller/renderer engine for this system RSN. I think his financial ties to Canon might be more pertinent to NeXT's success. >What impact will all these NeXTs have on the Amiga? I don't see them as a >major threat. The Amiga's strengths as a low cost media system still compare >favorably. Remember, the NeXTStation systems have *no* NTSC outputs. The >Dimension systems are *way* above the cost of an Amiga with a Toaster (or >whatever). Also, NeXT software is much more expensive than Amiga stuff, not >to mention that there's comparatively few applications available for NeXTs >at the moment. IMO, NeXT is doing the right things technically and marketeerwise to succeed in a big way in multimedia. Another MM platform that drinks from the s/w developer pool means fewer developers working on the Amiga in that area, I'd think. Cost of the platform could work in NeXT's favor, actually -- if I were a MM developer, and I believed that I could sell 1,000 copies of my FooWare at $1,000 each on the NeXT, I'd take that over possibly 10,000 copies at $100 each on the Commodore. >Lastly, the NeXTs all run Unix. Now, I'm a Unix freak myself, and the NeXT >does have a pretty intuitive user interface, but getting Joe (or Joan) Blow >consumer to plunk down major bucks for a Unix system is a major hurdle. What makes you think NeXT is interested in Joe/Joan Blow? Their feature-list and pricing sure doesn't say it to me. > I'd say in 2 (maybe 3) years that NeXT will >*finally* be making major penetration into the consumer markets - but by then >CBM will probably have rolled out *it's* 68080 based 30MIP home computer >for $1,995 ( ;-> ) I hope Commodore wins big with CDTV; that to me seems like a product with more potential in the consumer market than anything else they've done. -- >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com "Spontaneous human combustion - what luck!"| Apollo Computer (Hewlett-Packard)
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (09/21/90)
In article <4cf1554a.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> I wrote: > IMO, NeXT is doing the right things technically and marketeerwise to > succeed in a big way in multimedia. Another MM platform that drinks > from the s/w developer pool means fewer developers working on the > Amiga in that area, I'd think. Cost of the platform could work in > NeXT's favor, actually -- if I were a MM developer, and I believed > that I could sell 1,000 copies of my FooWare at $1,000 each on the > NeXT, I'd take that over possibly 10,000 copies at $100 each on the > Commodore. I should've clarified by adding that I don't think Commodore's interest in MM and NeXT's interest in MM necessarily lie in the same areas. "Multi- media" is an ill-defined term, with even fuzzier classes of applications. I can imagine a NeXT being used in sales-force training MM, f'rinstance, where cost of the platform isn't so much the issue as how much it saves over traditional training. Seems like Commodore wants the entertainment & cost-conscious entertainment segments of MM. Hmmm, perhaps C= and NeXT won't muddy eachother's waters after all... -- >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com "Spontaneous human combustion - what luck!"| Apollo Computer (Hewlett-Packard)
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (09/22/90)
>68040, just like the 'station. And the price is on big black and >white letters on the back: $4995. And the university price is (they say over in comp.sys.next) about $3500. Nice deal.
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Col. Ames and Pixel) (09/22/90)
In article <1990Sep21.135620.15582@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) writes: > >With all this talk about the NeXT, I wonder if anyone read the same article >I did recently (released by UPI I think, I can't recall). In it some >"industry expert" or another estimated NeXT would actually sell only 8,000 >machines in a year (either current year or next year, I can't find the >article). I was wondering if these figures were possibly accurate? >(I still think I must have read it wrong). >If so, >you have to be impressed with their PR skills. The NeXT has, in my >experience, greater name recognition than the Amiga and has gotten lots of >media exposure. > > >Richard Hey I heard GREAT NEWS today ..... 1) Only 5-6 Mac SW houses made profits. 2) Developers want Apple to drop their prices. -- adam hill Everybody lies about sex. hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu BOING!4Ever Rub HER feet! It's better to copulate than never AmigaDos2.0 - A VW with $10,000 in options. --Robert A. Heinlein
cwpjr@cbnewse.att.com (clyde.w.jr.phillips) (09/22/90)
In article <1990Sep20.090331.28998@nmt.edu>, dksnsr@nmt.edu (Dr. Mosh) writes: > > Are you sure that isn't $4995 just for the machine... does it include the > monitor, HD? That's an incredible price for the NeXT if it is correct.. > The Sparc SLC may be cheap... but it don't come with no drive... I gotta beleive they dropped the DSP chip, no mnitor, etc, Althought they put out a very impressive video tape about their fully automated production facilities... If it's reconfiguarble for cheap and has paid for itself....
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/22/90)
In article <14568@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >>I don't mean to be a doom-sayer, but I don't see much reason to buy an >>A3000 to run Unix when the NeXTstation looks the way it does. > >You might also ask why would someone buy a NeXT when the A3000 looks the >way it does. If you think a NeXT will offer that much more, you're confused. I was a little confused, that's true. I do see some things differently now... I did specifically say "A3000 to run Unix". The A3000 with AmigaOS, NTSC compatibility, and Amiga applications is hard to reasonably compare to a NeXT. They do different things; if you need to do what an Amiga does, a NeXT won't do. I realize that NeXT's unix is somewhat unique; it's really Mach plus BSD Unix compatibility. Calling it "unix" is stretching the truth. Calling AT&T System V Release 4 "Unix" is right on the money (hell, AT&T defines the term "Unix" anyway). Right now, the Federal Government requires SVID / Posix compliance in all their new system purchases. NeXT doesn't meet this. Amiga Unix will. Oh, and speaking of Unix, a rumor: I spoke to a representative of Interactive Systems at FCC. They make a popular version of Unix for PCs, and they have announced a SVR4 product. This rep said he thought it would be another year before they could ship, because of detail work on SVR4 still in progress at AT&T. MicroPort has already begun shipping SVR4 for Intel 386 based PCs; the ISC rep said he thought Microport would probably have to offer a significant and incompatible upgrade to their version since it was effectively a beta product. I certainly hope this does not stall Commodore's SVR4 Unix the same way. >The NeXT sound capabilities aren't anything special. The DSP is a nice >built-in, but it's a rather weak DSP. The NeXTstation has a microphone and the DSP has a digitizer; this is specifically to support their voice mail. And the NeXT "CD-quality" sound, via twin 16-bit sound channels on the DSP. You don't need a DSP to do this; DMA would work just fine, but the NeXT doesn't use DMA for it, it uses the DSP. Rather a waste of a DSP just to make some sounds... > my feeling is that most >of the NeXT customers have no immediate use for sound processing. I recall something I read once, that the DSP was there in an attempt to satisfy a request from universities for some kind of vector processing. >>and it runs Lotus - the brochure talks almost as much about Lotus Improv(tm) >>as it does about the rest of the machine. > >While it can do something with Lotus 1-2-3 file, they're claiming that Lotus >Improv is NOT really Lotus 1-2-3 compatible. The product itself may be different or even worthless; it's more that Lotus, the company, has implemented a NeXT product. This is a market move to show that the NeXT is designed to be on buisiness desktops. If only Commodore could do this. I don't care if Lotus only writes a replacement for the "copy" command, or if it doesn't work as well as the original; it's a Lotus product on an Amiga. >But there's not all that much NeXTStep software. The largest market for >UNIX + GUI software today is SunOS (reference: Personal Workstation), which >is merging with AT&T UNIX, X, OpenLook, etc. Which is exactly what the >A3000 UNIX runs. Which means, thanks to ABI, that UNIX SV.4 based SunOS >will be binary compatible with A3000s and quite a few other 680x0 family >machines out there. Sun adopting 68K ABI? This I've gotta see. They don't seem to be interested in improving their 68K line at all. They won't make a 68040 machine (unless they make a faster Sparc too :-). Some claim they'll be all Sparc within a year; I don't think that's rational, but time will tell. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (09/24/90)
In-Reply-To: message from rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM
Since multimedia came up in the last post, and there was a question of which
platform would look better to developers, your $1K figure for the NeXT
application was abit optimistic.
I've got an information packet on MEDIASTATION from Imagine, Inc. for the
NeXT. Here's what you get:
ARCHIVAL FEATURES:
Format Mode
...Design of entries with fields and buttons
...Button types:
Sound buttons
Image buttons
Movie buttons
(frame by frame animation)
...Field types:
Non-srolling text fields
Scrolling text fields
Enter Mode
...Edit and store text, images, sounds, and animation
...Import text, graphics, and sound from other applications
...Organize archives into multiple tables
Browse Mode
...Sophisticated searching
...Simultaneous view of entries and tables
...View multiple entries and images
...Play back animations and sounds
Presentation Mode
...Turn archives into desktop presentations
...Automatically scroll selected text
...create electronic storyboards
IMAGE CAPTURE FEATURES
...Direct interface to scanners
...store up to 32bit color
...TIFF file reader and writer
(supports NeXT, Macintosh, and PC formats)
...Load images from disk
SOUND CAPTURE FEATURES
...Direct sampling of voice-quality audio
(8kHz, 8bits)
...Direct sampling of CD-quality audio
(44.1kHz, 16bits; 22kHz, 16bits)
...Load sounds from disk
EDITING FEATURES
...Image processing tools
...sound editing tools
...word processing tools
OTHER FEATURES
...Easy to use GUI
...Organize the cataloging of images and sounds on optical disks
...Export images to desktop publishing software
...Full networking capabilities
...Multiuser
...Password protection
Hmmm...anything we really haven't seen before? Anything really revolutionary?
I'll admit that those last three features are neat...but everything else is
available, and more for the Amiga, and I don't remember seeing features like a
relational database, videodisc and Sony U-Matic (3/4") support, conventional
programming functions, or music capabilities included. All these and more
come with AmigaVision which comes free with every new Amiga (excluding the
A500c).
Anyone care to take a guess how much MEDIASTATION will cost a NeXT user???
How about $2,500? While it does have the image capture and sound capture
features, even if you had to pay $150 for AmigaVision you could get either an
A.M.A.S. (and then you'd have MIDI capabilities as well), or Perfect Sound,
and The Art Deparment, and you wouldn't have even spent 1/3 of what
MEDIASTATION costs. And you would have a more flexable system. And you'd be
able to distribute your presentations on a format that almost everyone has
access to...VIDEO.
This might be taken as a flame...but it's really just an observation.
Sean
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\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (09/24/90)
In-Reply-To: message from ckp@grebyn.com Sun has already stated that they will be dropping all other architectures besides SPARC, and would only develop an '040 based system if users "demanded" it. This doesn't mean they won't support the machines they've already sold, but they won't be making any more 680x0 or 80x86 boxes anymore. Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (09/25/90)
In article <22153@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >In article <14568@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>But there's not all that much NeXTStep software. The largest market for >>UNIX + GUI software today is SunOS (reference: Personal Workstation), which >>is merging with AT&T UNIX, X, OpenLook, etc. Which is exactly what the >>A3000 UNIX runs. Which means, thanks to ABI, that UNIX SV.4 based SunOS >>will be binary compatible with A3000s and quite a few other 680x0 family >>machines out there. >Sun adopting 68K ABI? This I've gotta see. They don't seem to be >interested in improving their 68K line at all. Regardless of whether or not Sun decides to continue or drop support for their [rather substantial] installed base of 680x0 machines, it's still A Good Thing For Us that Sun is merging SunOS with AT&T UNIX. Sun does lead the Workstation market, which these days is pretty close to leading the UNIX market. If standard 680x0 UNIX is a simple port from standard SPARC UNIX (and recall that SPARC was designed with 680x0 source level compatibility in mind), then you're likely to see a healthy supply of 680x0 UNIX software products. But they won't run on the NeXT. >First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
willr@ntpdvp1.UUCP (Will Raymond) (09/25/90)
> NeXT was there too. They had a bevy of cubes sitting around for > demos. They also had a new box: the NeXTstation. I picked up a > brochure. > > The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list > price is $4995. > > If I speculate the price of an A3000 plus 68040 plus 8 meg RAM plus > Viking 1 monitor plus Unix, I seem to get a number higher than that. I've seen quotes for educational discounts of the NextStation which bring it down to $3400. The A3000 with 50 Meg. 19Ns Drive and 2 Meg. RAM with educational discout is $3849. What can Amiga do? Realistically price the A3000 around $2800+ ( my estimate based on components etc. ). Of course, Commodore will have to dump a few of their excellent service reps. to afford this proce cut. Heres to a price cut.... ******* Will Raymond - Northern Telecom NTP in RTP | | ~ ~ | | . O o . Work: ...uucp!rti!ntpdvp1!willr | .V. | Fun: ...uucp!cs.unc.edu!raymond ._ _. | U | I speak for myself.
cwpjr@cbnewse.att.com (clyde.w.jr.phillips) (09/25/90)
In article <1990Sep21.135620.15582@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) writes: > > >In article <22107@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: > "industry expert" or another estimated NeXT would actually sell only 8,000 > Richard Computerworld says Next says it has 15,000 orders for these new '040 boxes, and that they have sold only 7000 original next cubes. I was thinking about getting a next but now I think I'll wait for the fire sale. What a shame. Hope I'm wrong, Clyde
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/25/90)
In article <14621@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <22153@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >>Sun adopting 68K ABI? This I've gotta see. They don't seem to be >>interested in improving their 68K line at all. > >Regardless of whether or not Sun decides to continue or drop support for >their [rather substantial] installed base of 680x0 machines, it's still A >Good Thing For Us that Sun is merging SunOS with AT&T UNIX... Well, I see no motivation for Sun to adopt the "standard" 68K ABI for Sys V.4. In terms of supporting their own user base, they are best served by continuing support of their own ABI, which is after all what all the 68K SunOS programs use. Adopting the "standard" would only serve to brighten the hopes of other 68K makers who hope to run SunOS binaries, like, er, Amiga Unix. If you want to ride the Sun bandwagon, you'd better come out with a Sparc coprocessor. Else forget it. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (09/25/90)
In article <14621@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) says: >In article <22153@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) >writes: >>In article <14568@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave >Haynie) writes: >>>But there's not all that much NeXTStep software. The largest market for but this could change in time. Lots of people seem pretty excited about NeXT's future since the new announcements last week. One of the amazing footnotes came from Word Perfect Corporation. They redeveloped a new NeXTified word processor from the ground up using NeXTSTeP, and claimed that they have reached beta testing after only 3 months, which is also 3 months ahead of schedule. The IEEE journal SOFTWARE has a special issue about software specification, and one of the articles labels the NeXT InterfaceBuilder software with something like ...the only true fourth generation User Interface Development System currently available... I see a parallel here with the Amiga/Atari wars of the mid 80s. People who could really see could tell that Amiga was superior, yet Atari's sold like hotcakes (because...). But gradually, quality won out. Now, I think that people who can really see can tell that Interface Builder is superior, and in time the rest of the world will come around. Lastly, why am I telling you this in an Amiga newsgroup. Just because I'd like to see Commodore position the Amiga as a baby NeXT. This might include porting ObjC and the Interface Builder, and so forth. The idea might be that a dozen NeXTs ($120,000) and a hundred Amigas ($250,000, for a total s of $370,000) is better than the equivalently priced 37 (or so) NeXTs). lee computer power than two dozen NeXTs.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (09/26/90)
In article <22208@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >Well, I see no motivation for Sun to adopt the "standard" 68K ABI for >Sys V.4. Well, assuming they did update their OS for their 68K machines, there are several advantages to adopting the standard ABI. First of all, they could call it UNIX for the first time. It would also be a service to all of the folks using Sun 68K machines. It's pretty clear that Sun doesn't think too much of continuing any presence in the 68K market. So if you're an owner of a Sun 3, you may not be getting too much support from Sun in the future. If you can run standard binaries, you can run software for any 68K UNIX machine. Which will be an issue with shrinkwrapped binary-only UNIX software. >In terms of supporting their own user base, they are best served by continuing >support of their own ABI, which is after all what all the 68K SunOS programs >use. That's only true assuming that the current Sun binary form can be made to play with what SV.4 wants to see. Not an issue with SPARC, since the SPARC ABI was done first, but certainly an issue with 68Ks. >Adopting the "standard" would only serve to brighten the hopes of other 68K >makers who hope to run SunOS binaries, like, er, Amiga Unix. Sun 3s are probably already a minority among 68k boxes that CAN run UNIX. It may not be that long before they are a minority among 68k boxes that are running UNIX, if this hasn't happened already. If enough unity among the various UNIX vendors in the market (which is also Apple, HP/Apollo, Sony, maybe even Atari someday) exists, anyone who's not compatible may count on some support from the parent company for access to the new stuff. >First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / > \\ / / >Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o >Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/ -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (09/26/90)
In article <90268.122650UH2@psuvm.psu.edu> UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) writes: >In article <14621@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave >Haynie) says: >Lastly, why am I telling you this in an Amiga newsgroup. Just because I'd >like to see Commodore position the Amiga as a baby NeXT. I like some of what I see NeXT doing, especially with their software. But the basic NeXT cube wasn't anything much different than an A3000 in terms of what the basic hardware is capable of. NeXT may have a lead on 68040 machines, but I doubt you'll find a 68040 NeXT performing faster than some future 68040 Amiga. Or an A3000 with 68040 board that any 3rd party can build, for that matter. I suppose we'll have to wait to see what happens when these kind of things ship. I don't see the "baby" relationship as being valid, either taking the Amiga vs. NeXT on cost or performance. In fact, it'll be a bit harder to see performance differences between 68040 machines than it was with 68030 machines. And in the 68030 machine race, the A3000 and the Cube are pretty even. For fast 68030 machine, talk to HP/Apollo. >This might include porting ObjC and the Interface Builder, and so forth. With 2.0's Intuition objects, I would imagine something like Interface Builder would be possible. From what I've read on Object C, it's pretty ugly as compared to something like C++. It's main advantage is that, like SmallTalk, it supports runtime object linking, whereas everything in C++ (at least the versions I've used to date) is linked at compile time, though you can still have runtime binding within a program. Though I think the main reason NeXT received as much attention as it did, other than due to the basic "Star factor" of Steven Jobs, is that the software has some pretty clever ideas. Everyone knows that software takes too long to write; hardware is advancing much faster than software, and the differences are growing each year. Things like Interface Builder seem to be one reasonable way to help solve some of this, at least in the context of the GUI elements added to a basic program. > lee -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
U3364521@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (Lou Cavallo) (09/26/90)
G'day,
DH> In article <14649@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com
DH> (Dave Haynie) writes:
[..a good dicussion (as always) from Dave regarding Next vs Amiga h/w & s/w..]
Your points of interest to me are your perspective on Interface Builder.
I'd like if I may to highlight your perspective ...
DH> With 2.0's Intuition objects, I would imagine something like Interface
DH> Builder would be possible. [...deleted...]
I do not know (yet) either the AmigaOS2.0 style or Interface Builder but I am
beginning to suspect that perhaps Commodore should try to provide such a tool.
DH> Though I think the main reason NeXT received as much attention as it did,
DH> other than due to the basic "Star factor" of Steven Jobs, is that the
DH> software has some pretty clever ideas. Everyone knows that software takes
DH> too long to write; hardware is advancing much faster than software, and the
DH> differences are growing each year. Things like Interface Builder seem to be
DH> one reasonable way to help solve some of this, at least in the context of
DH> the GUI elements added to a basic program.
A Commodore provided code/application/GUI builder could be as an important a
product as AmigaVision, at least to existing/prospective developers.
SO what say you CBM ? CBM employees ala private considerations? Developers?
Dweebs like me? :-)
The ball passes back to the net for the next round of net pin pong ... :-)
DH> Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
DH> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
DH> Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
PS: has anyone (Dave?) kept an archive of Dave's quotes? If so I'd like a
copy if I may. Please ... :-)
yours truly,
Lou Cavallo.UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (09/26/90)
In article <14649@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) says: >In article <90268.122650UH2@psuvm.psu.edu> UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) >writes: >>In article <14621@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave >>Haynie) says: >I like some of what I see NeXT doing, especially with their software. But ^^^^^^^^^^ Agreed >the basic NeXT cube wasn't anything much different than an A3000 in terms of >what the basic hardware is capable of. NeXT may have a lead on 68040 Agreed, again! >these kind of things ship. I don't see the "baby" relationship as being >valid, either taking the Amiga vs. NeXT on cost or performance. In fact, No offense intended. The "baby" relationship comes more from the fact that Commodore offers the 3000 as the top of its line, while the comparable NeXTStation or Cube is the bottom of the next line. This is in part a technical issue, but also a marketing issue. For example, a school that offered Next Labs for calculus and english classes might also want to require students to buy a home machine. Home NeXTs are still i bit much to ask at most schools. >>This might include porting ObjC and the Interface Builder, and so forth. >With 2.0's Intuition objects, I would imagine something like Interface >Builder would be possible. From what I've read on Object C, it's pretty ugly >as compared to something like C++. It's main advantage is that, like I think Interface Builder like software would be possible, too. But I disagree strongly that ObjC is ugly compared to C++. In my language pantheon, C++ is what you get when you add OO concepts to C, but are willing to sacrifice OO for C compatibility. ObjC is what you get when you add OO to C, but are willing to sacrifice C compatibility to get a good OOPL. The advantages of OOP are not fully realized in C++, by a long shot. >Though I think the main reason NeXT received as much attention as it did, >other than due to the basic "Star factor" of Steven Jobs, is that the software >has some pretty clever ideas. Everyone knows that software takes too long >to write; hardware is advancing much faster than software, and the differences >are growing each year. Things like Interface Builder seem to be one >reasonable >way to help solve some of this, at least in the context of the GUI elements >added to a basic program. and of course, many of the advances in 2.0 are aimed at exactly this target. Perhaps if and when an Interface Builder like tool gets built for the Amiga, it would be wise to consider making it comaptible with NeXTs IB. Consider making it as easy as possible to port WordPerfect NeXT, and Lotus Improv to the Amiga, and maybe it'll happen. wish wish wish.
joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (09/27/90)
Yeah...a whole library of the messages out of rutgers!cbmvax would be nice. (Even if it only had Dave's stuff in it) -Joseph Hillenburg UUCP: ...iuvax!valnet!joseph ARPA: valnet!joseph@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu INET: joseph@valnet.UUCP
scott@NIC.GAC.EDU (09/27/90)
cwpjr@cbnewse.att.com (clyde.w.jr.phillips) writes: >In article <1990Sep20.090331.28998@nmt.edu>, dksnsr@nmt.edu (Dr. Mosh) writes: >> >> Are you sure that isn't $4995 just for the machine... does it include the >> monitor, HD? That's an incredible price for the NeXT if it is correct.. >> The Sparc SLC may be cheap... but it don't come with no drive... > >I gotta beleive they dropped the DSP chip, no mnitor, etc, No, you don't! The lo-end NeXTStation, which is basically everything on the current (late, unlamented) cube, goes for $4995. That's list. The only differences are the '040, no bus (aw! I didn't use it anyhow, no boards :-[ ), a 105M HD rather than 40M, 2.88M floppy rather than 256M OD, and twisted pair Ethernet support besides thinwire. Monitor, DSP, everything's there (and monitor gets a built-in microphone, to boot). Only thing that seems to be lost are 2 or 3 DMA channels, and I suspect those are gone with the bus . . . Recall, that's list. The best educational discounts run at about $2995. No, that is _not_ a misprint. Under $3000. That's why Jay Carlson is concerned about whether he needs an A3000 or not . . . Luckly, I think its supposed to be an Apple/Sun killer. I'd rather keep Amigas/Ataris around, because they are neat. Althought they put out a very impressive video tape about their fully automated production facilities... I saw that, too. I wonder how close to capacity they run. If it's reconfiguarble for cheap and has paid for itself.... :-) scott hess scott@gac.edu Independant NeXT Developer (Stuart) NeXT Campus Consultant (Not much, really) GAC Undergrad (Horrid. Simply Horrid. I mean the work!)
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/28/90)
In article <1990Sep21.200549.20835@cbnewse.att.com> cwpjr@cbnewse.att.com (clyde.w.jr.phillips) writes: >In article <1990Sep20.090331.28998@nmt.edu>, dksnsr@nmt.edu (Dr. Mosh) writes: >> >> Are you sure that isn't $4995 just for the machine... does it include the >> monitor, HD? That's an incredible price for the NeXT if it is correct.. >> The Sparc SLC may be cheap... but it don't come with no drive... > >I gotta believe they dropped the DSP chip, no monitor, etc, Nope. $4995 gives you a NeXTstation *including* the 68040 CPU, 8 Meg RAM, 17" Megapixel grey-scale monitor, Keyboard, monitor, one expansion connector (occupied by the graphic display circuitry), Motorola 56001 DSP, a 105 Meg HD, a 2.88 Meg floppy, Thin Wire and 10-Base-T (twisted pair) Ethernet, 8 DMA channels, Mach OS, NeXT Step and assorted tools, and (for a limited time) Lotus Improv. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
andrey@beyond.cs.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew) (09/28/90)
scott> Recall, that's list. The best educational discounts run at about scott> $2995. No, that is _not_ a misprint. Under $3000. That's why scott> Jay Carlson is concerned about whether he needs an A3000 or not . . . But for $3000, your 105 MB drive is filled almost to capacity isn't it? I mean, looking at the list of standard and extended software posted on comp.sys.next, I don't think the $3000, 105 MB machine even comes with any language compiler. And you just can't download something like gcc, because you don't have anything to compile it with. Also, isn't the 340 MB upgrade something like $2000 or more? I'd say that even though Amigas don't have UNIX yet, at least they have room on the disk for some programming languages and utilities. scott> scott hess scott> scott@gac.edu scott> Independant NeXT Developer (Stuart) scott> NeXT Campus Consultant (Not much, really) scott> GAC Undergrad (Horrid. Simply Horrid. I mean the work!) -- Andre Yew andrey@through.cs.caltech.edu (131.215.128.1)
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (09/28/90)
In article <14649@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >I like some of what I see NeXT doing, especially with their software. But >the basic NeXT cube wasn't anything much different than an A3000 in terms of >what the basic hardware is capable of. NeXT may have a lead on 68040 >machines, but I doubt you'll find a 68040 NeXT performing faster than some >future 68040 Amiga. Or an A3000 with 68040 board that any 3rd party can >build, for that matter. I suppose we'll have to wait to see what happens when >these kind of things ship. I don't see the "baby" relationship as being >valid, either taking the Amiga vs. NeXT on cost or performance. In fact, it'll >be a bit harder to see performance differences between 68040 machines than >it was with 68030 machines. And in the 68030 machine race, the A3000 and the >Cube are pretty even. I think you're oversimplifying matters, Dave. My shabby Datsun and a sleek new Porsche both use the same basic hardware; so what? Dropping a Porsche engine into my Sentra does not a hot car make. It seems to me that in a head-to-head between an A3000 and the new NeXTs, the Amiga clearly loses on base hardware. CD quality sound? A megapixel gray-scale display? 105 Mb drive? 2.88 Mb floppies? No doubt all of those things can be added to an A3000, but the salient point is that they're all part of the base NeXT package; you don't get any less than that. And if you want to consider options, the NeXTdimension color board -- 32-bit color with real-time video compression -- sounds like a treat. And Display PostScript at useable speeds (which is what NeXT'ers seem to be saying the '040 buys them) seems like a feature deserving of more than a casual, "Oh, but that's just software". On the other hand, so what? Do you really see C= and NeXT chasing the same customers? Even two years down the road? > For fast 68030 machine, talk to HP/Apollo. On this we're in complete agreement. :-) If anything, my employer has more to worry about from NeXT than yours, I'd think... -- >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com "Spontaneous human combustion - what luck!"| Apollo Computer (Hewlett-Packard)
scott@NIC.GAC.EDU (09/28/90)
scott> Recall, that's list. The best educational discounts run at about scott> $2995. No, that is _not_ a misprint. Under $3000. That's why scott> Jay Carlson is concerned about whether he needs an A3000 or not . . . But for $3000, your 105 MB drive is filled almost to capacity isn't it? I mean, looking at the list of standard and extended software posted on comp.sys.next, I don't think the $3000, 105 MB machine even comes with any language compiler. And you just can't download something like gcc, because you don't have anything to compile it with. Also, isn't the 340 MB upgrade something like $2000 or more? I'd say that even though Amigas don't have UNIX yet, at least they have room on the disk for some programming languages and utilities. That is true. _But_ you can get the regular utilities for the cost of media, from NeXT. I'd assume this means you can just grab it from someone else, too. I have run a development system in <95M on NeXT, incl. swap space, which gave me ~220M free for disk management (those opticals do take a long time to copy, now, don't they?) This, of course, blew away most of the non-unix documentation, lot's of this, that and the other thing. I'd not want to write on this machine (though you could easily pop in the OD to use the other stuff, that's not really an option with floppies). Then again, I'd not like to write on it in _any_ case. I'd rather be programming. To sum up, I think you _could_ run a decent development environment on a 105M NeXTStation. I would not want to, I'd rather have somewhere around 600M. But then again, I'd not want to run a PC, a Mac, or an Amiga (or an ST, to cover everyone) with less than 200M. Note that I said _want_. I know that I couldn't _afford_ that solution, no more than I can afford a 600M NeXT . . . And, of course, you're forgetting that the NeXTStation has _one_ standard developer's tool included (remember, media costs for others) - the Terminal vt100 terminal emulator :-). scott hess scott@gac.edu Independant NeXT Developer (Stuart and the new Terminal) NeXT Campus Consultant (Not much, really) GAC Undergrad (Horrid. Simply Horrid. I mean the work!)
xwm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Alexei Rodriguez) (09/28/90)
Having just returned from the Campus Computer Fair and having spent a considerable amount of time at the NeXT booth, I would like to make some corrections to some of the posts that have been going around: The NeXTstation is the 040 machine w/ 8megs and 105meg Quantum. Although the OS (MACH) and various applications take up around 65meg, you also have 20meg for disk-swapping (VM?). That leaves you with 20megs free. Not a whole lot and you only have the basic OS 2.0. When you purchase a NeXT you are also buying the rights to the whole OS 2.0 which includes the extended release that has the Developers Apps (Interface Builder, etc..). Now, the difference in price between the 105M and the 340M drives is around $1500 because the 340M Quantum is a 3.5" half-height drive, the first of it's kind. The Educational pricing discount ranges from 20-40%. At 40% off, that means that for $2995 a NeXTstation can be had. Add a 200Mb SCSI HD to that for ~$1100, add the rest of the OS and you have yourself one heck of a machine. Add up to 32megs in 1 or 4 SIMM configurations. I must say that the new NeXTstations have made me think long and hard about my needs as a student, particularly a CS major. I use UNIX all day long and it will get worse. NeXT is offering a unix box that, all though not that expandable, is very powerful. It has most of the things I need and those that it doesn't have I can easily get. Mathematica and Lotus Improve are included as are a few GNU utilities. X windows is available and so is Word Perfect. Do not flame me for I am an avid Amiga fan and promoter. I am just stating that the NeXT suits my present and future needs. Slater..... Alexei Rodriguez
jeffo@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey B Nicholson) (09/28/90)
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >The shockers: It sports a 25MHz 68040, yes, an Oh Forty. And the list >price is $4995. >If I speculate the price of an A3000 plus 68040 plus 8 meg RAM plus >Viking 1 monitor plus Unix, I seem to get a number higher than that. >[some stuff deleted here] >While Commodore was pushing their low-end architecture up into the >high end, the high end architectures have come down to meet them. I >don't want to be a doomsayer, but I don't think the A3000 will compete >on their terms. I don't know what Commodore could do to compete. >Maybe they'd better stick to the low end. Or maybe Commodore has a >new high-end up their sleeve. Lowering the price of CBM's Unix would help! Also, lowering the price of the 3000 would be nice...but I agree that the NeXT is looking good, now only if it had some software...hmmm... -- Jeff jeffo@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu -- Jeff jeffo@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (09/28/90)
In article <9009270725.AA02487@mcs-server.gac.edu> scott@NIC.GAC.EDU writes: > Only thing that seems to be lost are 2 or 3 DMA channels, and >I suspect those are gone with the bus . . . Actually, I hear two DMA channels were intended for high speed memory-to-memory data movement. It's possible NeXT decided that the new 68040 instruction MOVE16 works better anyway. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (09/29/90)
(Jeffrey B Nicholson) writes:
)Lowering the price of CBM's Unix would help! Also, lowering the price
)of the 3000 would be nice...but I agree that the NeXT is looking good,
)now only if it had some software...hmmm...
Hell, *announcing* C= UNIX would help.
It is beginning to look like NeXT has the *premier* software in each
major category, at least announced. FrameMaker, Improv, Wingz, Sybase,
and, my favorite, NextStep, which *counts*. The missing thing is
"critical mass" which means we can make some $$ developing for it,
even without the personal attention of Steve Jobs.
Thank God their video solutions only come in at the high end, but
again, they're hooked into the current top choice stuff (C-cubed's JPEG).
Predictions? I think that Sun and Apollo will have no problems from
NeXT in the engineering community for a long while, but I hope they
smoke Apple and give us alternatives to PC-clones.
I don't think that it has much bearing on the Amiga role in high-end
office and non-video vertical market use, the Mac and PC seem to have
been holding the fort there.
jimm
--
-------------------------------------------------- - opinions by me
"I've got great news. That gum you like is going to come back in style."
-the man from another place252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) (09/29/90)
The NeXT may have all the Hardware to waste the Amiga, but what about the software aspects. NeXT has HARDLY the 3rd part software support that the Amiga does. 3rd party developers are leary of writing NeXT software, because frankly, if their program doesn't sell, this step could make or break their company. Thats why when you look for software for the NeXT, ya basically only use Mathmatica and the builtin compilers. I'd take a system where software is being constantly being writtn for. True, they may be just games, but they are better then playing with the same old mathmatica program. Phil Dietz <<<=================--------- Cheap Ad ---------===================<<< Phil Dietz SWL Lincoln 550 MEGS! 2 lines 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (402)421-1963 IBM, GIFS, MAC, AMIGA
bgribble@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Bill Gribble) (09/29/90)
In article <1990Sep28.235557.29347@hoss.unl.edu> 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: >The NeXT may have all the Hardware to waste the Amiga, but what about >the software aspects. NeXT has HARDLY the 3rd part software support >that the Amiga does. 3rd party developers are leary of writing NeXT >software, because frankly, if their program doesn't sell, this step >could make or break their company. Thats why when you look for software >for the NeXT, ya basically only use Mathmatica and the builtin >compilers. > >I'd take a system where software is being constantly being writtn for. >True, they may be just games, but they are better then playing with >the same old mathmatica program. > >Phil Dietz OK - 1.) I know this is not a NeXT group, and this discussion should probably be somewhere else. 2.) I do *not* want to be another la-MeB-rain anti-Amigan in anybody's eyes *but* (there's always a but, isn't there?) I think you're pretty much off base here. I've posted before that, regardless of what 192-bit, 5000x5000 pixel, quadruple bypass hypercolor workstation Apollo or Sun is coming out with, I really don't care too much. Why? I can't afford them, or the software to run them, so I might as well not give myself fits over them. My Amiga has always been the highest performance-to-price ratio machine around, and it does what I need, as well as doing a lot of stuff nobody else can. So I decided that my next computer was/is an Amiga 3000UX: not only do I want to continue to support Commodore, I feel like a unix machine is where I want to be about now, computing-power wise. And an Amiga 3000 gives me the res/speed/colors I want. Until the NeXTstation was announced: more powerful, cheaper, and with better res than the A3000UX (based solely on speculation, I admit.) And if one wants a UNIX machine - which is the only arena the next and the Amiga would be competing in - there's going to be as much software for the Next as for the A3000UX. Maybe I'm wrong - and I still would rather buy an Amiga than a Next. But it's silly to dismiss the Next out of hand as an alternative to an a3000ux, especially when one looks at the price tag. ***************************************************************************** ** Bill Gribble Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA ** ** bgribble@jarthur.claremont.edu Never heard of it? You're stupid. ** *****************************************************************************
tron1@tronsbox.xei.com (HIM) (09/29/90)
>Resp: 31 of 31 About: Re: Commodore at FCC ><> [Phil Dietz] (*Masked*@fergvax.unl.edu) > >I'd take a system where software is being constantly being writtn for. >True, they may be just games, but they are better then playing with >the same old mathmatica program. It never ceases to amaze me how things come full circle. I guess this reflects the maturity of the Amiga that "hackers" are not the major Amiga market anymore ! Back when I got the Amiga , the phrase "The hardware is better , but there is no software" was what I was fighting! It is scary to defent the Amiga with it's software support against a better hardware box... ========[ Xanadu Enterprises Inc. Amiga & Unix Software Development]======= =Also the mantra and spells, the obeah and the wanga; the work of the wand= =and the work of the sword: these shall he learn and teach. = = He must teach; but he may make severe the ordeals. = =========== Ken Jamieson: uunet!tronsbox.xei.com!tron1 =================== = NONE of the opinions represented here are endorsed by either = = Xanadu Enterpises or its clients, AT&T Bell Labs or others. = === The Romantic Encounters BBS 201-759-8450(PEP) / 201-759-8568(2400) ====
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (09/29/90)
The under-$3000 ed prices for the new NeXT sound great, but what are you actually getting? A lot of good hardware, but also perhaps the only prominent UNIX platform joining neither of the two new standards (V.4 or OSF). Unless Mach/NeXTStep get a level of support near that of V.4 or OSF (heirs to BSD, System V, SunOS, Xenix, etc...) then you're missing out on the best element of the new UNIX--interplatform compatibility. Bummer. Ideally, NeXT will start a UNIX price war, bringing 3000UXs down to a similar price range. Then we can keep our beloved Amigas and add the professional applications of System V.4 UNIX at speeds exceeding that of the NeXTs and the current generation of SPARCstations (presuming an '040 drives Amiga UNIX). Too much to hope for? THom
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (09/30/90)
252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: >The NeXT may have all the Hardware to waste the Amiga, but what about >the software aspects. NeXT has HARDLY the 3rd part software support >that the Amiga does. > >I'd take a system where software is being constantly being writtn for. Gee, this sounds just like what the IBM'ers and Mac users say when we show them that Amiga is superior to them in some respect, like multi-media. They start on the 'well we have more software and that's what counts' argument. It sounds kind of hollow to me. After all, all new computers have to start somewhere and build a software base. The NeXT is younger than the Amiga and so has less software. Another problem is the way it is marketed. It's marketed as NOT for use in the home, only school or business. From what I can see, if a manufacturer markets there product in this fashion, two things occur: 1> Less software is produced than general-use computers. and 2> The software is more expensive. For examples of this look at any 'business' computer: NeXT, Sun, DEC, IBM (mainframes), Apollo, etc. The NeXT (as it stands now) and the Amiga are two entirely different beasts. The hardware might look simular, but they are intended for two entirely different markets. Even if the NeXT was cheaper than a 3000, I don't think they would be a viable option for most of us amiga type users. Unless Jobs starts marketing the NeXT as a personal computer, it will never have the cost effectivness overall that the Amiga has (software and peripheral wise). At least that's the way I see it. ' -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (10/01/90)
In article <1990Sep28.055905.9056@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jeffo@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey B Nicholson) writes: [in response to the pricing of the new NeXT's] >Lowering the price of CBM's Unix would help! Also, lowering the price >of the 3000 would be nice...but I agree that the NeXT is looking good, >now only if it had some software...hmmm... The NeXT has plenty of software. Apart from the public domain stuff, it comes with Mathematica, Write Now, TeX, Lotus Improv,etc... Furthermore SoftPC will be available with support for the floppy and run as a very fast AT with 287 support and EGA. SAS will be out at the beginning of 1991 or so and FrameMaker 2.0 is already available, as is Wingz. You've very much mistaken re the availability of software. Even if you were to purchase the NeXT as a PostScript printer( computer + NeXT printer) for other computers, you'd find the price very competitive. In fact, not much less than an Apple LaserWriter NT! The low-end NeXT is an outstanding value, especially to academics, for which we can all thank Steve Jobs et al. If nothing else it will bring the micro computer makers( especially Apple) down to earth in their pricing and encourage less commercial software which can only be classified as junk. From an Amiga perspective, it provides Commodore with direction. They should now see just where the future of hardware is heading. Low cost hardware but higher cost GOOD software. They would do well to cut the price of the Amiga 3000 by a substantial amount. Philip McDunnough Department of Statistics University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
huebner@aerospace.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) (10/01/90)
In article <8731@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> bgribble@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Bill Gribble) writes: >Until the NeXTstation was announced: more powerful, cheaper, and > with better res than the A3000UX (based solely on speculation, I admit.) > And if one wants a UNIX machine - which is the only arena the next and the > Amiga would be competing in - there's going to be as much software for > the Next as for the A3000UX. One of the more recent issues of (I believe) PC Week had a chart called "Application Watch" which showed the number of applications available for the different operating systems (OS/2, different flavours of UNIX). It showed the OpenLook (What I've been told the Amiga 3000UX runs) has about 2.5 time the number of available applications found with the NeXT implement- ation. Can anybody confirm/refute? huebner@aerospace.aero.org The Aerospace Corporation
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (10/03/90)
In article <4d104ad7.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) writes: >In article <14649@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>I like some of what I see NeXT doing, especially with their software. But >>the basic NeXT cube wasn't anything much different than an A3000 in terms of >>what the basic hardware is capable of. > I think you're oversimplifying matters, Dave. My shabby Datsun and a > sleek new Porsche both use the same basic hardware; so what? Dropping > a Porsche engine into my Sentra does not a hot car make. You're missing the point; that's an invalid comparison. > It seems to me that in a head-to-head between an A3000 and the new NeXTs, > the Amiga clearly loses on base hardware. Let's compare: > CD quality sound? The A3000 is missing 16 bit sound as a built in. It also doesn't come with a fixed point DSP chip. > A megapixel gray-scale display? The Commodore A2024 Monitor, I use them. The NeXT does include their custom monitor as part of the price, whereas Commodore sells them separately. >105 Mb drive? You have your choice of 50 MB or 105MB drives as standard equipment. >2.88 Mb floppies? These aren't built in either. >No doubt all of those things can be added to an A3000, but the salient point >is that they're all part of the base NeXT package; you don't get any less than >that. And if you want to consider options, the NeXTdimension color board >32-bit color with real-time video compression -- sounds like a treat. Sure does. However, you can't add it, or anything else, to the base machine. The only expansion the basic NeXT machines support is external SCSI boards. You get something like 16 MB possible on the motherboard, and Ethernet. It's nice to have lots of stuff built in, like the "all-in-a-monitor" SparcStation also provides. But what if you want a high speed color board? More memory? A video-processing (eg, floating point) DSP? A 24 bit frame buffer/grabber? 68040 with external cache memory? None of those toys can be added to the basic NeXT. All but the last are already announced, most are available, for the A3000. Which does tend to imply that the NeXT is now a little more like the modern desktop workstation and a little less like a personal computer, since the modern desktop workstation is minimally, if at all, expandable -- you get what you pay for, and nothing more. That's OK, if you're happy with the base package. I'm sure a number of A3000 owners won't need any more hardware in the future. > On the other hand, so what? Do you really see C= and NeXT chasing the > same customers? Even two years down the road? Not really, for the most part. Personal Computer versus Workstation, at this point. Even though you'll likely have faster A3000 systems available within the year than NeXTs, just like you had A2000 systems available that were faster than the original NeXT. And it does look like NeXT wants to be considered an entry in the Workstation market, for whatever reasons. >> For fast 68030 machine, talk to HP/Apollo. > On this we're in complete agreement. :-) If anything, my employer has > more to worry about from NeXT than yours, I'd think... Well, you guys had 68040 compatible machines out before anyone else. And with good 68040 chips, they should be faster than NeXTs, too. Of course, NeXT does have this good price everyone's talking about... > >>"Aaiiyeeee! Death from above!"<< | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com >"Spontaneous human combustion - what luck!"| Apollo Computer (Hewlett-Packard) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (10/05/90)
In article <1990Sep30.214206.18776@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >In article <1990Sep28.055905.9056@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jeffo@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey B Nicholson) writes: >[in response to the pricing of the new NeXT's] >>...but I agree that the NeXT is looking good, now only if it had some >>software...hmmm... >The NeXT has plenty of software. Apart from the public domain stuff, it >comes with Mathematica, Write Now, TeX, Lotus Improv,etc... The NeXT does, currently, come with a some good application programs. When the non-optical disk units ship, they apparently come with less. You can't count any package "available" until it ships. You know, until you can buy it. The October 1990 Personal Workstation "Applications Watch" counts 23 applications actually shipping for the NeXT at press time. Certainly more are on the way, but the same can be said for applications on any active operating system. At preset, if the NeXT doesn't come with the software you need, you stand a high chance of being in trouble if you're just expecting that application to be available on the market. While the same can be said of any machine, NeXT right now is on the bad end of the applications spectrum. You can go out and buy an MS-DOS machine with reasonable certainty that if a program for a particular problem exists, you can run it on that machine. All other computer systems fit somewhere between the two, at least until a new, non-compatible system is created by someone. Of course, you buy a NeXT because you feel it may do what it currently does do better than another system. Same reason most of us own Amigas around here... >Philip McDunnough -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) (10/08/90)
Phil Dietz says > The NeXT may have all the Hardware to waste the Amiga, but what about > the software aspects. NeXT has HARDLY the 3rd part software support > that the Amiga does. Remember when we could substitute Amiga for NeXT and Macintosh/PC for Amiga? People do buy systems on hardware capabilities and value, if the system is innovative enough. In business you can't ever get complacent.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/09/90)
> > The NeXT may have all the Hardware to waste the Amiga, but what about > > the software aspects. NeXT has HARDLY the 3rd part software support > > that the Amiga does. > Remember when we could substitute Amiga for NeXT and Macintosh/PC for Amiga? Yeh, but the NeXT is more expensive. The Amiga was cheaper. So much for value... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.