WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (10/02/90)
I have some comments about a couple of item from a message containing excerpts from an interview with Helmut Jost of CBM Germany. >AMIGA: How does it look with the competitor Atari? I wish that all Amiga users (especially those in the US) would forget that Atari even exists, and start concentrating on Apple. Atari and Commodore are pursuing totally different markets (Commodore the high-end, and Atari the super-low-end), while Commodore and Apple are almost on a collision course with each other, with both companies pursuing almost exactly the same markets. I realize that things are different in Europe, where Atari is more active, but I would still have felt better if that question had been phrased "How does it look with the competitor Apple?" >AMIGA: Will it be possible to upgrade the different models of the A500? > >Jost: The A500 has by now, by its number of machines on the market, its >own domain. Thus it is - in our oppinion - not necessary to supply the >A500 with a new operating system. >... >Don't worry, the A500 will be supported more than enough by third party >developments if not by Commodore themselves. There have been ads for >example in some german magazines about Kickstart2.0/1.3/1.2 switch boards >for the A500. I guess, this would be a modified Kickstart, since some of >the hardware it expects is not available on the A500. So expect some >level of incompatibility. (Until some hardware hack will be released, >"the A500 rejuvenator" maybe? :) This seems in direct conflict with what some of the Commodore US have been saying. It has been confirmed here on CSA that OS2.0 will definately be available as an upgrade for the A2000, while others have said about the A500 upgrade, in effect, "Don't worry, the A500 will be supported." I believe that Commodore will be producing an OS2.0 upgrade package for the A500, though comments here from Helmut Jost does seem to leave this in a bit of doubt. I would like to hear more about the possibility of using the A2000 upgrade package on a 500. The A500 and A2000 seem to be almost identical in terms of plugging in upgrade ROMs. I wish someone from CBM could confirm this. I would hate to think that OS2.0 could be run on an unexpanded A2000, but couldn't run on my A500 with 4.5M of RAM and a 40M hard drive. -MB-
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/02/90)
In article <32040@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > > I have some comments about a couple of item from a message containing >excerpts from an interview with Helmut Jost of CBM Germany. > >>AMIGA: How does it look with the competitor Atari? > > I wish that all Amiga users (especially those in the US) would forget >that Atari even exists, and start concentrating on Apple. Atari and >Commodore are pursuing totally different markets (Commodore the high-end, >and Atari the super-low-end), while Commodore and Apple are almost on >a collision course with each other, with both companies pursuing almost >exactly the same markets. I realize that things are different in Europe, >where Atari is more active, but I would still have felt better if that >question had been phrased "How does it look with the competitor Apple?" > Marc, you should realize that in Germany, where this article was written, the Atari is a very strong contender, although definitely weakening. Here the Atari (as well as Commodore, BTW) are relatively small players in the market. In Germany especially the exact opposite is true. > >>AMIGA: Will it be possible to upgrade the different models of the A500? >> >>Jost: The A500 has by now, by its number of machines on the market, its >>own domain. Thus it is - in our oppinion - not necessary to supply the >>A500 with a new operating system. >>... > > This seems in direct conflict with what some of the Commodore US >have been saying. It has been confirmed here on CSA that OS2.0 will Marc, two things to consider. The various nations can have totally different policies. As an example there is the educational discount which is a primarily American policy. There is also the fact that Commodore may decide to make it an unofficial upgrade. As an example, the fat agnus may not be officially installed in the A500 and it voids your warranty, however CBM has given the information about how to perform the change to repair centers. The same may happen with 2.0, CBM may say here is how to do it but warn that it isn't official and you don't got no warranty. > > -MB- -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu *Iraq += *Kuwait; NumCountries--; and by popular demand... free(Kuwait);
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (10/02/90)
In article <1990Oct2.002247.1338@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >In article <32040@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >> >> I have some comments about a couple of item from a message containing >>excerpts from an interview with Helmut Jost of CBM Germany. >> >>>AMIGA: How does it look with the competitor Atari? >> >> I wish that all Amiga users (especially those in the US) would forget >>that Atari even exists, and start concentrating on Apple. >> > Marc, you should realize that in Germany, where this >article was written, the Atari is a very strong contender, >although definitely weakening. Here the Atari (as well as >Commodore, BTW) are relatively small players in the market. In >Germany especially the exact opposite is true. Yes, I can confirm this, at least from the number of devices, Atari is a strong contender. But for the image, we try to catch up with Apple. Helmut Jost did say this explicitly in his interview. But normally Apple is not a big contender here because of their prices. Never in all the years since their start they could break the dominance of Commodore here in Germany. (YES, believe that!) (I always LOVE to tell people that Germany is the real Commodore Wonderland. Also in the PC area, only I*M can compete with us :-) >>>Jost: The A500 has by now, by its number of machines on the market, its >>>own domain. Thus it is - in our oppinion - not necessary to supply the >>>A500 with a new operating system. > > Marc, two things to consider. The various nations can >have totally different policies. As an example there is the >educational discount which is a primarily American policy. Well, here in Germany we have other forms of educational discount. It is only for the institutions (schools, universities,...), but not for individuals. So it is not so widely spread, sorry. And talking about policies and A500: As a fact, A500 and A2000 are MUCH cheaper here! About same price in DM here as in $ in US, which makes a factor of ca. 1.5. Thus we indeed have sold MASSES of A500s (and also many A2000s) here, surely a manyfold of those in US. And that is a reasonable base that must be considered. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (10/03/90)
In article <32040@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > I wish that all Amiga users (especially those in the US) would forget >that Atari even exists, and start concentrating on Apple. We in the USA *have* forgotten about - uh, um - oh, yes, Atari. The interview you're quoting was done in Europe, and over there Atari is much more successful than in the USA, and is still considered a competitor. Atari has begun delivering their TT in Germany (I've heard); superficialy it resembles the A3000 and in fact beats it "by the numbers": 32MHz 68030, 4 Meg RAM, 1 "industry standard" VMEbus slot, and some new high-res graphics modes like 1280 X 960 non-interlaced monochrome, 640 X 480 X 16 color non-interlaced, and 320 X 200 X 256 color. It's still TOS however, and it doesn't have the expandability that A3000 does (despite the VMEbus, which is limited to 16 bits vs. the new Zorro III spec), it doesn't have an upgradeable CPU, it doesn't run Unix, it doesn't have the video capabilities, etc. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
maniac@hammond.cs.unlv.edu (Eric J. Schwertfeger) (10/03/90)
In article <22345@grebyn.com>, ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: |> heard); superficialy it resembles the A3000 and in fact beats it "by |> the numbers": 32MHz 68030, 4 Meg RAM, Ah, but what they don't tell you is that all 4 Meg, and any expansion memory, is the equivelent of the Amiga's Chip Ram. Sounds good, until you realize that the video eats half of the memory bandwidth, apparently regardless of video mode. The memory is given to video for 250 ns, and then to the CPU for 250 ns. With a 68030, that could significantly eat into the throughput on anything that doesn't run in cache. Eric J. Schwertfeger, maniac@jimi.cs.unlv.edu
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (10/04/90)
In-Reply-To: message from ckp@grebyn.com
The TT beats the A3000 by the numbers??? The only number I saw was the
32-33MHz clock speed. Haven't you been around in the Amiga community long
enough to know that flat clock-speed when compared to an Amiga doesn't account
for didly? Well, in some cases it would...but remember, we're talking about
an Atari box here.
The "industry-standard" VME buss, as you quote, is only 16bits, with less
through-put than ZORRO3. A consideration for Atari users: What are you going
to stick in that slot? Sure, a SUN or Apollo card would FIT, but you need
software. And as you point out, the TT doesn't run UNIX, so what software
would be able to use the board anyway?
Which brings me to another question...what ST software is there that would
even be able to take advantage of the '030? I think DynaCadd might...will it
run on a TT though?
A hires, non-interlaced display mode, eh? You left out something
though...that's a MONITERM mode, for use with the Moniter Viking I moniter.
AmigaDOS supports similar resolution on the A2024 or Moniterm moniters. No
point for Atari on that one either.
Hmmm, so what do we have now...oh, back to clock-speed. Well, did Atari
incorporate any custom coprocessors into the TT?
Oh yeah, it does come with 4MB of RAM. I'll give you that one...unless you
get the 100Mb HD version of the A3000, it only comes with two. But would 2Mb
of RAM make me choose the TT...nah...I don't think so...I don't get it...I'm
not impressed.
Sean
PS> While on the surface this might seem like just another flame and an ATARI
bash-fest...but remember, I'm exercising my 1st amendment right to free
speech :') (and disregard all spelling mistakes!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^)
ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | Dual A3000 based, custom
Help keep the | computer graphics,
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham competition // | animation, presentation,
Voice: (512) 994-1602 under \X/ | simulation, accident-
| scene re-creation, and
...better life through creative computing... | recreation...(whew!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) (10/04/90)
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: [Speaking of the TT] >upgradeable CPU, it doesn't run Unix, it doesn't have the video It will run UNIX. It's not ready but it has all technical capabilities for it. >capabilities, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (10/05/90)
In article <2040@jimi.cs.unlv.edu> maniac@hammond.cs.unlv.edu (Eric J. Schwertfeger) writes: >In article <22345@grebyn.com>, ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >|> heard); superficialy it resembles the A3000 and in fact beats it "by >|> the numbers": 32MHz 68030, 4 Meg RAM, >Ah, but what they don't tell you is that all 4 Meg, and any expansion >memory, is the equivelent of the Amiga's Chip Ram. Sounds good, until >you realize that the video eats half of the memory bandwidth, apparently >regardless of video mode. Really? I though they would have some equivalent to Fast memory. Of course, that was just a natural assumption based on what's necessary to make things go fast. Though at 32MHz, if they're supplying anything slower than 60ns RAM, the CPU clock speed is likely far more for spec sheets and marketing than any actual user benefit. When Apple went to an integrated, flexible video chip (on the IIci), they shipped the machine with video memory, which acts much like our Chip memory, and actually gets most of its bandwidth devoted to video fetch if you set up a 640x480x8 display. However, this "A" memory can be augmented by "B" memory, which is equivalent to Fast memory on an Amiga. Most systems these days don't permit expansion memory beyond the 16Meg or thereabouts available on the motherboard, so they only cope with these two basic memory types. The A3000 can actually support 4 possible types of Fast memory; as well as on-board Fast, there's CPU Slot memory, Zorro III memory, and Zorro II memory. If A3000 on-board memory is "Fast", you might call CPU slot memory "Faster", Zorro III memory "Not quite as Fast", and Zorro II memory "We used to think this was Fast". That's essentially the way that 2.0 treats them, though there's only an ordering distinction in the memory lists; they're all considered Fast, as in, not Chip-bus-delayed. >Eric J. Schwertfeger, maniac@jimi.cs.unlv.edu -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (10/05/90)
In article <4798@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from ckp@grebyn.com > > >The TT beats the A3000 by the numbers??? The only number I saw was the >32-33MHz clock speed. Haven't you been around in the Amiga community long >enough to know that flat clock-speed when compared to an Amiga doesn't account >for didly? Well, in some cases it would...but remember, we're talking about >an Atari box here. > [ ... and more like that ... ] Well, I did mean strictly "by the numbers". In many areas the "specs" of the TT exceed those of the A3000. I don't mean that I think the Atari is a better system; in fact I don't. Many 386 systems beat the A3000 "by the numbers" (many particpants here love to point that out on a regular basis). Unfortunately, there *are* people like the one in the Apple ad: "...the one with the most MIPS, Megabytes, Megahertz; you know...", and those "specs" will sway some purchasers. Not in the USA of course; nobody here buys Atari anymore. :-) -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) (10/05/90)
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>Ah, but what they don't tell you is that all 4 Meg, and any expansion >>memory, is the equivelent of the Amiga's Chip Ram. Sounds good, until >>you realize that the video eats half of the memory bandwidth, apparently >>regardless of video mode. >Really? I though they would have some equivalent to Fast memory. Of course, The TT has its equivalent of Fast mem. They haven't settled about whether 4 MB machines will be shipped with 4 MB slow RAM only or a 2MB/2MB mixture, but the TT has fast memory. I don't know _how_ fast (in terms of wait states), but I will find out. How many waitstates would I get in a A3000 in chip/fast/ultra-fast/whatever RAM, by the way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu (10/06/90)
This is the first article in a long while where I have seen about lotus making software for the Amiga. Does anyone the status of 1-2-3 for the Ami?
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (10/10/90)
In article <3154@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) writes: >daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>Really? I though they would have some equivalent to Fast memory. Of course, >The TT has its equivalent of Fast mem. OK. I really thought it must; that kind of architecture demands it. >How many waitstates would I get in a A3000 in chip/fast/ultra-fast/whatever >RAM, by the way? First you have to define wait state. In 68030 terms, a 0 wait state bus cycle is either a 2 clock sychronous cycle or a 3 clock asynchronous cycle. But of course a 0 wait state asynchronous cycle is just a fast as a 1 wait state synchronous cycle. Then there's burst mode -- a 0 wait state burst cycle (which can only follow a synchronous cycle or another burst cycle) happens in one clock. And a spec sheet may claim "0 wait state effective speed", but really mean a 5 clock synchronous cycle followed by three 1 clock burst cycles. Which adds up to 8 clocks, same number of clocks as four 0-wait state synchronous cycles, but really isn't as fast, since burst fetched data is thrown out on occasion. So, for built-in Fast memory, you get: Mode 25MHz 16MHz Basic 5 clocks 4 clocks Burst 2 clocks 2 clocks Page Detect 3/7 clocks 3/6 clocks At least, I think those are the right numbers. The "Page Detect" mode is a feature of the custom memory controller. In this mode, the controller locks in the memory page (technically, the row address to the DRAM) in a normal memory cycle, and any cycles following it on that same page happen faster. If a different page is addressed, there's a small penalty taken to close the current page, followed by a normal memory access to open the new page. As for other memory, the CPU slot can support true 0-wait state RAM, if you can find any :-), as well as 0-wait state external cache memory. The best Zorro III bus access in the A3000 implementation is in 5 clocks (for any clock speed), but because of bus overhead, you'll need much faster memory to achieve that performance than you would for CPU slot or motherboard memory. Zorro III burst mode can cut down on the overhead just as 68030 burst does for the 68030 bus. Cycles on the Zorro III bus can actually be faster, between good Zorro III devices, since Zorro III burst can run 64 longwords, vs. the 4 longword burst cycle of the 68030 bus. Chip memory access is probably more like 14-15 clocks at 25MHz or 8-9 clocks at 16MHz, same basic idea with Zorro II memory access (and of course, Zorro II access is also 16 bits wide). You can't tell exactly how fast a given cycle to Zorro II or Chip memory is because there is a bit of clock synchronization, which is different depending on the relative positions of the 16/25MHz clock with respect to the 7MHz clock. >Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. >D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) >csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (10/14/90)
In article <4798@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from ckp@grebyn.com >The TT beats the A3000 by the numbers??? The only number I saw was the >32-33MHz clock speed. Haven't you been around in the Amiga community long >enough to know that flat clock-speed when compared to an Amiga doesn't account >for didly? Well, in some cases it would...but remember, we're talking about >an Atari box here. For number-crunching, processor speed and memory bandwidth are all that really matters. The Amiga's graphics and sound co-processors don't "account for diddly" in that application. Just a matter of target audience, I guess. >The "industry-standard" VME buss, as you quote, is only 16bits, with less >through-put than ZORRO3. A consideration for Atari users: What are you going >to stick in that slot? Sure, a SUN or Apollo card would FIT, but you need >software. And as you point out, the TT doesn't run UNIX, so what software >would be able to use the board anyway? You seem to think that the world is full of users, but no programmers. If someone gave me a TT030, a VME card-cage extension, and a bunch of cards (SMD disk controller, ethernet controller, async multiplexer, say) I would damn well figure out how to use them. >Which brings me to another question...what ST software is there that would >even be able to take advantage of the '030? I think DynaCadd might...will it >run on a TT though? Most ST programs run fine. DynaCadd runs fine. Of course, without '030 specific ocject code, you don't get as much of a speedup as you'd expect. >A hires, non-interlaced display mode, eh? You left out something >though...that's a MONITERM mode, for use with the Moniter Viking I moniter. >AmigaDOS supports similar resolution on the A2024 or Moniterm moniters. No >point for Atari on that one either. >Hmmm, so what do we have now...oh, back to clock-speed. Well, did Atari >incorporate any custom coprocessors into the TT? I don't think the blitter is there any more, but no loss, the '030 would run rings around it anyway. Dunno fer sure. >Oh yeah, it does come with 4MB of RAM. I'll give you that one...unless you >get the 100Mb HD version of the A3000, it only comes with two. But would 2Mb >of RAM make me choose the TT...nah...I don't think so...I don't get it...I'm >not impressed. It comes with 4 meg of ST RAM, i.e., memory that looks exactly like what ST folks are used to seeing. You can expand it beyond that tho, to up to 36 Meg on board, and the rest of the address space is left purely for the '030. (Actually, I think it is also addressable by the SCSI controller, but not by the VME device.) This seems to correspond with the Amiga's "fast RAM" in that there are no other processes (video, DMA, etc) contending for access. >Sean -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...