mikey@NRC.COM (Mikey Goodglick) (07/21/89)
Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software
for the Amiga. WHY??? TOO much piracy. I have this on VERY good authority.
One of my friends went for a job interview with them and discussed this.
The only way that this can be changed is for YOU to buy thier stuff...rather
than copying it. It is up to us. I for one would like to see Cinemaware
keeping up the good work on the Amiga.
PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL!
===============================================================================
"I like pizza, I like it green, I like it dripping down my screen!!"
____________________________________
LIGHTS!, CAMERA!, ACTION! | Mike Goodglick |
| Network Research Corporation |
**** Mikey ****, | 2380 North Rose Avenue |
In 3D, Part II, The Final Chapter | Oxnard, California 93030 |
A New Beginning...But this time, | (805)485-2700 x355 |
Someone is waiting. | mikey@nrc.com mikey@nrcvax.UUCP|
------------------------------------
--
===============================================================================
"I like pizza, I like it green, I like it dripping down my screen!!"
____________________________________
LIGHTS!, CAMERA!, ACTION! | Mike Goodglick |
| Network Research Corporation |
**** Mikey ****, | 2380 North Rose Avenue |
In 3D, Part II, The Final Chapter | Oxnard, California 93030 |
A New Beginning...But this time, | (805)485-2700 x355 |
Someone is waiting. | mikey@nrc.com mikey@nrcvax.UUCP|
------------------------------------mitchell@janus.uucp (Evan Mitchell) (07/22/89)
In article <268@nrcvax.NRC.COM> mikey@nrc.com (Mikey Goodglick) writes: >Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software >for the Amiga. WHY??? TOO much piracy. I have this on VERY good authority. >One of my friends went for a job interview with them and discussed this. >The only way that this can be changed is for YOU to buy thier stuff...rather >than copying it. It is up to us. I for one would like to see Cinemaware >keeping up the good work on the Amiga. > >PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! > No more cinemaware?!? This is a shock! The last couple of interviews I read with Bob Jacobs(?) gave the impression that he is 100% Amiga commited. I thought they were on the right track. They have some of my money (TV sports football, Rocket Ranger) and were about to get some more(The Kristal). If this is true, this is a VERY bad sign. Images of Atari are starting to dance in my head.... -Evan
raw@mcnc.org (Russell Williams) (07/22/89)
In article <30140@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.UUCP (Evan Mitchell) writes: >In article <268@nrcvax.NRC.COM> mikey@nrc.com (Mikey Goodglick) writes: >>Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software >>for the Amiga. WHY??? TOO much piracy. I have this on VERY good authority. >>The only way that this can be changed is for YOU to buy thier stuff...rather >>than copying it. It is up to us. I for one would like to see Cinemaware >>keeping up the good work on the Amiga. >>PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! You know, I've been hearing people complain about piracy on the Amiga for a long time now, but it's strange that they make it sound Amiga specific. Now, I'm sure that the owners of different machines exhibit different tendencies as a group, but who is Cinemaware going to make their games for? The C-64? The Apple IIGs? The Atari ST? I've know a lot of people with these machines, and frankly, it seems like piracy is much more widespread than on the Amiga. The IBM has a great deal of piracy when it comes to games. The only computer that Cinemaware makes software for that I haven't seen an equivalent amount of piracy for is the Macintosh. Are they only going to make Macintosh games from now on? As a side point, it also behooves them to make games for the Amiga, because the computer mags carry reviews of them typically with pictures taken from the Amiga, which makes the game look better than what their version will turn out to be. :-) Russell
logic@wet.UUCP (Henry Kwan) (07/23/89)
In article <4929@alvin.mcnc.org> raw@mcnc.org.UUCP (Russell Williams) writes: > >[stuff deleted] >Now, I'm sure that the owners of different machines exhibit different >tendencies as a group, but who is Cinemaware going to make their games for? >The C-64? The Apple IIGs? The Atari ST? I've know a lot of people with >these machines, and frankly, it seems like piracy is much more widespread >than on the Amiga. The IBM has a great deal of piracy when it comes to games. >[stuff deleted] > What strikes me as funny is that every computer owner likes to point fingers. When you ask someone on the ST newsgroup about piracy, they say that piracy on the ST is low compared to the other machines. When you ask someone on the Amiga newsgroup about piracy, they say that piracy on the Amiga is low compared to the other machines. And so on and so on. If this is the case, piracy isn't a problem at all, eh? Why not be realistic and say that piracy is a problem equally on all machines? -- Henry Kwan - "Bill & Opus '92" | What The ST Needs: claris!wet!logic@ames.arc.nasa.gov | A) 50 Mhz 68030/68882 cca.ucsf.edu!wet!logic@cgl.ucsf.edu | B) 1280x960x32 graphics {claris,ucsfcca,hoptoad,lamc}!wet!logic | C) 32-voice, stereo sound
cknight@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (King Claudius) (07/23/89)
If this is true, I think we should all become true to their expectations and start making illegal copies galore! (Insert Smiley here...) -- cknight@polyslo.calpoly.edu ---King Claudius---
durham@cme.nbs.gov (James H. Durham) (07/24/89)
In article <306@wet.UUCP>, logic@wet.UUCP (Henry Kwan) writes: > What strikes me as funny is that every computer owner likes to point > fingers. When you ask someone on the ST newsgroup about piracy, they say > that piracy on the ST is low compared to the other machines. When you ask > someone on the Amiga newsgroup about piracy, they say that piracy on the > Amiga is low compared to the other machines. And so on and so on. If this > is the case, piracy isn't a problem at all, eh? > > Why not be realistic and say that piracy is a problem equally on all > machines? This really isn't necessarily true. I have owned both Amiga and Atari ST computer systems I know for a fact (although I can't offer evidence) that piracy is much more rampant on the atari than it is on the Amiga, and I think it stems from where the first Amiga and Atari ST users were coming from. When the Amiga came out, more "respectable" computer users seemed to be buying it, and that's why better software was written for it, because of this slightly more professional group. This "image" of the Amiga produced (in my eyes) somewhat of a snobbishness among Amiga owners... that their machine was better. This aside, the Amiga costed more and was geared for a more sophisticated market than the ST initially... remember the Amiga used to be a "business machine?" Well, the lack of this image on the Atari was the breeding ground for hackers: The cost was right, and the machine was baginning to be considered a mere "game machine." Summarily, I'm not saying that piracy on the Amiga is less than on other machines, bacuse it isn't, but I AM saying that piracy on the ST is unusually high... Oh well, just the lone thoughts of this programmer... any friendly "counter-thoughts?"
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (07/24/89)
In article <4929@alvin.mcnc.org> raw@mcnc.org.UUCP (Russell Williams) writes: >In article <30140@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.UUCP (Evan Mitchell) writes: >>In article <268@nrcvax.NRC.COM> mikey@nrc.com (Mikey Goodglick) writes: >>>Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software >>>for the Amiga. WHY??? TOO much piracy. I have this on VERY good authority. >>>The only way that this can be changed is for YOU to buy thier stuff...rather >>>than copying it. It is up to us. I for one would like to see Cinemaware >>>keeping up the good work on the Amiga. >>>PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! > > You know, I've been hearing people complain about piracy on the Amiga >for a long time now, but it's strange that they make it sound Amiga specific. >Now, I'm sure that the owners of different machines exhibit different >tendencies as a group, but who is Cinemaware going to make their games for? Perhaps they won't make them at all. Perhaps they are tired of producing a game, seeing 50,000 copies out there, and only getting paid for 5,000. Let me tell you all a little story.... I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. NOT ONE. Every game, every application; they were all there. Star Wars. F18 Interceptor. Hacker. Strip Poker. Deluxe Paint II. Etc. All there. Every one loaded with a "cracked by byte bandit" or somesuch hi-res screen instead of the normal boot loader -- then the game would load normally. EVERY SINGLE ONE. EACH ONE was copyable, and the people in the room didn't seem to care much what you did with the disks (ie: if you had a few blanks you could have taken nearly everything you wanted). I was NOT impressed. People, if you want something that costs money, for cripes sakes BUY it. Don't steal it. What I saw could have easily amounted to grand theft many times over - there had to be $50,000 in pirated software there. That is $50,000 that software authors and publishers DIDN'T receive, but should have. After seeing this I decided then and there that my company would never produce an Amiga product. I've never seen something like this in the MSDOS or Unix world. Piracy, yes. Piracy on this kind of scale -- people writing boot loaders to specifically crack protection?! This was my first experience, and I was horrified. We'll stay with Unix products, even though we could write some really killer packages for the Amy. If we're only going to get paid for one out of every 20 copies, it's not worth the hassle. Wise up people. If you pirate enough the people who make the products you are _stealing_ will stop producing software, you'll have nothing to use, and the hardware companies will go out of business too (since without software a computer is useless!) -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (07/25/89)
Piracy is around because as a culture we haven't figured out how to
punish the criminals sufficiently or accurately yet. However, the
reason people bitch about piracy on the ST and Amiga and yet don't
complain so much about piracy on the C64, IBM, and Mac is because
there are so many of these machines out there that if even 50% of the
owners pirated software, capturing 10% of the remaining 50% is enough
marketshare to make it worthwile to develop software for them.
12,000,000 IBM pc compatibles is a huge number. The 400,000 or so
Amigas in the US on the other hand can't afford to lose any sales
to people with retarded morals. There are several ways to fight
piracy, so far the most successful has been to make the market
so large that piracy doesn't seriously impact your ability to develop
software.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (07/25/89)
>Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software >for the Amiga. WHY??? TOO much piracy. I have this on VERY good authority. >One of my friends went for a job interview with them and discussed this. Gee. How do they measure piracy anyway? Count the number of unregistered users? Personally I've tried most of the cinemaware games, but haven't purchased one strictly because I don't like them. IMHO they are trying to blame piracy for their own problems. As a general rule, cinemaware games are slow, accept only limited user response, rely heavily on graphics instead of game play, and only load from floppy. Hardware copyprotection stinks. Games like "Lords of the Rising Sun" are a sorry excuse for a strategy game. And slow..... have you ever played a game of LOTRS? Six hours later you are so tired of seeing the stupid little anecdote after reviewing your troops, that you turn off the machine without saving, AND DON'T CARE. Good riddance. We have enough game writers who know how to make truly challenging games for the Amiga. Let Cinemaware die an ignominous death. (The loss of Infocom did distress me greatly.)> >PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! No arguments here. But I don't seriously believe that the problem is nearly as widespread as you imply. -Sullivan Segall _________________________________________________________________ /V\ Sullivan was the first to learn how to jump without moving. ' Is it not proper that the student should surpass the teacher? To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _________________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com >
logic@wet.UUCP (Henry Kwan) (07/25/89)
In article <1436@aws.cme.nbs.gov> durham@cme.nbs.gov (James H. Durham) writes: > >This really isn't necessarily true. I have owned both Amiga and Atari ST >computer systems I know for a fact (although I can't offer evidence) that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >piracy is much more rampant on the atari than it is on the Amiga, and I think >it stems from where the first Amiga and Atari ST users were coming from. Ummm... What kind of fact is that? If you can't offer any evidence, why are you coming out and proclaiming that piracy on the ST is running amok? >When the Amiga came out, more "respectable" computer users seemed to be buying >it, and that's why better software was written for it, because of this >slightly more professional group. This "image" of the Amiga produced (in my >eyes) somewhat of a snobbishness among Amiga owners... that their machine was >better. This aside, the Amiga costed more and was geared for a more >sophisticated market than the ST initially... remember the Amiga used to be >a "business machine?" Well, the lack of this image on the Atari was the >breeding ground for hackers: The cost was right, and the machine was baginning >to be considered a mere "game machine." Since most of the above is opinion, I'll decline to comment on it. I've seen enough "ST vs. Amiga" wars to last me ten lifetimes. Hence, to say that I have no desire to start one here on comp.sys.amiga is an understatement, to say the least. > >Summarily, I'm not saying that piracy on the Amiga is less than on other >machines, bacuse it isn't, but I AM saying that piracy on the ST is unusually >high... Oh well, just the lone thoughts of this programmer... any friendly >"counter-thoughts?" > Perhaps you can offer figures to backup your statement that piracy on the ST is substantially higher than on other platforms. Perhaps sales figures comparing the ST to the other machines (such as Amiga) on per capita basis instead of sheer gross volume since by a lot of accounts, the vast majority of ST's are in Europe instead of the United States. Sidenote: I am also curious as to the state of shareware on the various platforms. IMHO, the MS*DOS market seems to be leading the pack with several products hauling in some substantial bucks (i.e. PC-Write, Procomm, PKArc, etc.) Has anyone made a survey of shareware authors to see how many people have actually sent in the fee as compared to the estimated number of copies being used? -- Henry Kwan / FWB, Inc. | What The ST Needs: claris!wet!logic@ames.arc.nasa.gov | A) 50 Mhz 68030/68882 cca.ucsf.edu!wet!logic@cgl.ucsf.edu | B) 1280x960x32 graphics {claris,ucsfcca,hoptoad,lamc}!wet!logic | C) 32-voice, stereo sound
raw@mcnc.org (Russell Williams) (07/26/89)
In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >>>In article <268@nrcvax.NRC.COM> mikey@nrc.com (Mikey Goodglick) writes: >>>>Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software >Every one loaded with a "cracked by byte bandit" or somesuch hi-res screen >instead of the normal boot loader -- then the game would load normally. >EVERY SINGLE ONE. EACH ONE was copyable, and the people in the room didn't >seem to care much what you did with the disks (ie: if you had a few blanks >you could have taken nearly everything you wanted). > >After seeing this I decided then and there that my company would never produce >an Amiga product. I've never seen something like this in the MSDOS or Unix >world. Piracy, yes. Piracy on this kind of scale -- people writing boot >loaders to specifically crack protection?! This was my first experience, >and I was horrified. Well, I've seen things like this from in several states and countries. When you talk about Unix, you're in a whole other ballgame, but I've seen MSDOS pirates who refuse to keep disks unless they're broken. Piracy is obviously related to the type of software being sold. Games are pirated more than business software on the average, and that's not going to change in the immediate future. The Amiga has a lot of games out for it, so it's going to have more piracy than, say, a vax. I'd be willing to bet that since I've never heard of a game for the Next computer, that piracy is nonexistant on the machine. So, in general (because there's definitely exceptions to this rule), produce productivity software if you can't stand copying. By the way, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Cinemaware doesn't lose money on any of these games, do they? >
mclek@dcatla.UUCP (Larry E. Kollar) (07/26/89)
Does Cinemaware make anything other than games? Just wondering. In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > >[ bad experience at an SF convention ] > >After seeing this I decided then and there that my company would never produce >an Amiga product. I've never seen something like this in the MSDOS or Unix >world. [...] > >We'll stay with Unix products, even though we could write some really killer >packages for the Amy. Speaking as one who has *never* pirated Amiga software, your decision is a loss to all of us. I won't say that piracy isn't a problem on the Amiga, but I would go so far as to say that what you saw was extreme and rare -- you caught the very worst of it the first time. I've seen similar things in the Mac world -- including a '68 Mustang with a trunk full of pirated Mac software -- and I'll bet you could find something on a similar scale in the MS-DOS world if you looked around. I remember reading something about a pirate board in New York City that had the *source code* to Lotus 1-2-3 as well as a "cracked" binary! Such extreme piracy probably does not exist in the Unix world -- although as Unix gets more popular & lands on more desktops, it will happen. It's just a matter of time. >Wise up people. If you pirate enough the people who make the products you >are _stealing_ will stop producing software, you'll have nothing to use, and >the hardware companies will go out of business too (since without software a >computer is useless!) I have no kind words for pirates. But there's a LOT of shlock on the market that doesn't get supported by the producers. People like that are going to get pirated out the wazoo, because there's no advantage to *buying* their product. I'm talking about support here -- a sympathetic voice on the line, or a prompt written response: "yes, that's a bug; here's a workaround until we get the next version out." Example? Delta Research produces JForth, a really nice implementation of Forth for the Amiga. I was having a problem with JForth 1.2, which I dis- covered after 2.0 was available (for $50 upgrade). Instead of just saying "buy the new version," Phil Burk (the owner) dug into the code, found the bug, provided a workaround, THEN said "buy the new version; it doesn't have this problem." I did. Gold Disk *must* be doing well; they've just released several new Amiga products. Of course, pirates really have no need for productivity software. Pirates may copy it, but I doubt they actually use it. If you follow through on your motto -- "quality solutions at a fair price" -- and you have the right product, AND you SUPPORT it, you'll make money in the Amiga market. You'll have some piracy, but the people who have a real need for your product *will* buy it (supporting only registered owners is a widely-accepted practice :-). -- Larry Kollar ...!gatech!dcatla!mclek : life BEGIN funds @ enough_to_retire < WHILE work REPEAT ;
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (07/26/89)
In article <20729@cup.portal.com> Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) writes: >>PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! > >No arguments here. But I don't seriously believe that the problem is >nearly as widespread as you imply. I guess you've not checked out the software available on Amiga's pirate boards for everyone to download free. It is very educational :^) --Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Diga and Caligari!" -- Rick Unland -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
lauren@cbmvax.UUCP (Lauren Brown - CATS) (07/26/89)
In article <268@nrcvax.NRC.COM> mikey@nrc.com (Mikey Goodglick) writes: >Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software >for the Amiga. WHY??? TOO much piracy. I have this on VERY good authority. >....... Not quite good enough, I'm afraid. According to Cinemaware they are still very much involved with producing quality entertainment software for the Amiga. In fact, you should see new product from them in the near future. >PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! A fact with which Cinemaware (and all of us) heartily agree! -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lauren Brown -- CBM >>Commodore Amiga Technical Support<< 1200 Wilson Drive West Chester, PA 19380 UUCP ...{allegra,uunet,rutger,}!cbmvax!lauren PHONE 215-431-9100 Do not believe in miracles - rely on them. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
griff@intelob.intel.com (Richard Griffith) (07/26/89)
In article <21429@dcatla.UUCP> mclek@dcatla.UUCP (Larry E. Kollar) writes: > Does Cinemaware make anything other than games? Just wondering. not that I know of....:-) >In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >> >>[ bad experience at an SF convention ] >> >>After seeing this I decided then and there that my company would never produce >>an Amiga product. I've never seen something like this in the MSDOS or Unix >>world. [...] >> >>We'll stay with Unix products, even though we could write some really killer >>packages for the Amy. >Speaking as one who has *never* pirated Amiga software, your decision is >a loss to all of us. I won't say that piracy isn't a problem on the Amiga, >but I would go so far as to say that what you saw was extreme and rare -- you >caught the very worst of it the first time. >I've seen similar things in the Mac world -- including a '68 Mustang with >a trunk full of pirated Mac software -- and I'll bet you could find something >on a similar scale in the MS-DOS world if you looked around. I remember >reading something about a pirate board in New York City that had the *source >code* to Lotus 1-2-3 as well as a "cracked" binary! I've seen similar problems with MS-DOS - Although, with MS-DOS, I'd say the problem was *much* worse, I've seen full compilers, word processors, db's, spreadsheets - this is the *productivity* software folks - you don't see that getting copyed by Amigans much, the reason? Simple - MS-DOS productivity programs often have 2-3 "third party" manuals available for less than 1/4 the cost of the original program! So copy a disk, buy the cheap manual, and you're IN! You don't see a lot of Amiga 3rd party manuals (ok, there are *some*, quite good too, huh Rob?), so buying the productivity software is worthwhile... if for nothing else, just for the manuals! >Such extreme piracy probably does not exist in the Unix world -- although >as Unix gets more popular & lands on more desktops, it will happen. It's >just a matter of time. >>Wise up people. If you pirate enough the people who make the products you >>are _stealing_ will stop producing software, you'll have nothing to use, and >>the hardware companies will go out of business too (since without software a >>computer is useless!) >Example? Delta Research produces JForth, a really nice implementation of >Forth for the Amiga. I was having a problem with JForth 1.2, which I dis- >covered after 2.0 was available (for $50 upgrade). Instead of just saying >"buy the new version," Phil Burk (the owner) dug into the code, found the >bug, provided a workaround, THEN said "buy the new version; it doesn't have >this problem." I did. >Gold Disk *must* be doing well; they've just released several new Amiga >products. Of course, pirates really have no need for productivity software. >Pirates may copy it, but I doubt they actually use it. Case in point: WordPerfect. I know that there are a lot of people who aren't real crazy about WordPerfect, but they BUY IT, and USE IT. And, I find it real rare to find it PIRATED! - why? Their customer support is Superior. I once called and said that my "help" file was a "beta" version - they had a FULL SET of disks in the mail to me WITHIN THE WEEK- yep, snail mail, no less! >-- >Larry Kollar ...!gatech!dcatla!mclek >: life BEGIN funds @ enough_to_retire < WHILE work REPEAT ; -- * Richard E. Griffith, "griff" * Cyrus Hammerhand * * BiiN, Hillsboro Ore. * Household of the Golden Wolf * * UUCP: ...[!uunet]!tektronix!biin!griff * Dragons' Mist, An Tir * ************************************************************************** * "If you don't see the humor in something you take seriously, * * Then you're not taking it seriously enough!" - Poepping * * These are MY opinions, if BiiN wanted them, They'd pay for `em! *
jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) (07/27/89)
In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >Let me tell you all a little story.... [comments about seeing games with copyprotection bypassed] >After seeing this I decided then and there that my company would never produce >an Amiga product. I've never seen something like this in the MSDOS or Unix >world. Piracy, yes. Piracy on this kind of scale -- people writing boot >loaders to specifically crack protection?! This was my first experience, >and I was horrified. [more comments deleted] >Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) >Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] >Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" You should see how much of this goes on in the MSDOS world. Remember, there are more of them than there are of us and they have been hacking at breaking copy protection longer than we have. Summary: Not selling Amiga programs as a result of a single encounter with pirates is foolish. Find out how bad the situation really is (by checking users of other systems as well) before damning the Amiga group. -- Joe Smith (408)922-6220 | SMTP: JMS@F74.TYMNET.COM or jms@tymix.tymnet.com McDonnell Douglas FSCO | UUCP: ...!{ames,pyramid}!oliveb!tymix!tardis!jms PO Box 49019, MS-D21 | PDP-10 support: My car's license plate is "POPJ P," San Jose, CA 95161-9019 | narrator.device: "I didn't say that, my Amiga did!"
david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) (07/28/89)
IMHO
Companies complaining of copyright infringements & making tougher
copy protection schemes & cracking programs becoming better & ...
it's all silly
The medium is inherently copyable. There is vast proof that lots of
people won't pay for something they can get free. (What's the best
kind of sex? free sex, of course ... er.. well.. sometimes anyway..
meet me in alt.sex if you want to continue this.)
How do the software companies expect to make money with inherently
copyable media for which they charge high prices, provide poor documentation
or any of a whole raft full of other "features".
For the record -- when I do see a good program I tend to buy it. And I'm
grateful for the chance to demo a program before buying it, whether it
be in my dealers showroom or at a friends house.
--
<- David Herron; an MMDF guy <david@ms.uky.edu>
<- ska: David le casse\*' {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<- "Amiga software is as good and as bad as PC software. The difference is
<- that AmigaDOS waves bye-bye before it dies, while the PC just freezes."kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (07/28/89)
In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > Perhaps they are tired of producing a game, seeing 50,000 copies out > there, and only getting paid for 5,000. People, if you want > something that costs money, for cripes sakes BUY it. Don't steal > it. What I saw could have easily amounted to grand theft many times > over - there had to be $50,000 in pirated software there. That is > $50,000 that software authors and publishers DIDN'T receive, but > should have. That's the problem with software piracy- people look at how well their program is selling, and then they go and figure that the 10,000 kids who've illegally copied it would have bought it were it not available under the Jolly Roger. That, I'm afraid, is utterly absurd. Have I pirated? Yeah, plenty, but not much on the Amiga. On the C64 there were thousands of games ( "(c) games" or "warez" I bet they still call 'em) that cost $20-50 a pop, and once you played them five or six times you got sick of 'em. There was no such thing as software rentals 'cause everyone was too afraid of piracy. So, I had a good 300 disks worth of cracked games and maybe 20 legal productivity packages. On the Amiga, I own no commercial software save what came with the thing- all the productivity software I use is PD or shareware, most of which I haven't paid for. During the school year I live on about 75 bucks a week- not conducive to buying PacMania, though I'd love to reward its programmers for their fantastic job. So, when I feel like something pretty to look at or play, I either go ftp a Badge Demo or hoist the Jolly Roger once again. I play the game for a day and get sick of it, and don't play it again. Usually I even erase it to make room for more demos. (Exceptions being Marble Madness and Arkanoid, both of which are classics and which I will buy... right after I can afford that hard drive.) Now, people are going to say "But if you can't afford it and it's not to be had for rent, that's your tough luck! You still can't pirate it." But you're mistaken. If I could afford this stuff, I wouldn't pirate- but I'm not going to go without because someone else is going to get into a moral frenzy either. I get enough moralizing from the queer-bashers, thanks. You learn to shut it out after a while. So, next time you notice fifty grand worth of pirated software in someone's house, go ahead and squeal- but then think to yourself: "Gee, I wonder if this person could have spent the fifty grand instead of cutting into my sales by that much." Chances are, he wouldn't have. Real disclaimer: I am not advocating piracy. I am also not condemning it. I am, however, condemning those who are blinded to reality by imaginary profits..... -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Disclaimer: You don't exist. 2346 15th St. \\ /// Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) (07/29/89)
In Message <18752@usc.edu>, papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: :In article <20729@cup.portal.com> Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) writes: :>>PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! :> :>No arguments here. But I don't seriously believe that the problem is :>nearly as widespread as you imply. : :I guess you've not checked out the software available on Amiga's pirate :boards for everyone to download free. It is very educational :^) Well my 'personal' feelings are that you should post the names and #'s of these dens of sin. That way everyone could keep their modems so busy with garbage calls that no pirating could be done. As SYSOP of a BBS I feel these kinds of people give all BBS'es a bad image. Sneakers -- ___ Dan "Sneakers" Schein //// BERKS AMIGA BBS Sneakers Computing //// 80+ Megs of software & messages 2455 McKinley Ave. ___ //// 12/2400 Baud - 24 Hrs West Lawn, PA 19609 \\\\ //// 215/678-7691 \\\\//// {pyramid|rutgers|uunet}!cbmvax!heimat!sneakers
COSC60I@elroy.uh.edu (Bandolar) (07/29/89)
> That's the problem with software piracy- people look at how well their > program is selling, and then they go and figure that the 10,000 kids > who've illegally copied it would have bought it were it not available > under the Jolly Roger. That, I'm afraid, is utterly absurd. I agree with this point 100%. I, too pirated software when I supported a family of 3 on a just over poverty level income. I would not have bought the software if I couldn't get it pirated. I couldn't have afforded it. I bought the computer in happier times. > Now, people are going to say "But if you can't afford it and it's not > to be had for rent, that's your tough luck! You still can't pirate it." But it is still stealing. It bugged me then. I don't have any pirated software at this particular moment. I *do* pirate software to look at after I paid $50 bucks for a utter piece of junk from an unnamed company and had NO way to return it. If a new car is a total piece of junk, you can return it. I will NOT purchase software without a test drive to this day. However, with the possible exception of ARC (sigh, I keep *meaning* to send in the money but they really are asking a *LOT* for a shareware product. A friend of mine sent in $15 instead. Maybe I will do this) I have no pirated software. > "Gee, I wonder if this person could have spent the fifty grand instead > of cutting into my sales by that much." Chances are, he wouldn't have. Very good point. When these people say "Gosh, piracy is just rampant..." they ignore the fact that the audience only has SO MUCH money to spend. If they continue to turn out products that people want and can have for $1 plus 2 minutes or pay $50 that the folks don't have then they will just pirate. My friends and I take a slightly different approach. We split the cost of a piece of software and then *each* play it to death. The only difference is that if we can copy it we play it to death in a week or three and if not we just pass it down the line when a given person tires of it. *Note* either way the same dollars go to the publisher. The only difference is whether we tire of the game in 3 weeks or in 2 months. > condemning those who are blinded to reality by imaginary profits..... ^^^^^^^^^ Primo choice of words here. A person with "$50,000" worth of software (about $7,000 of actual dollars that make it to the publisher's pocket, the rest go to the two or three layers of middle men, packaging, art, etc...) really only has $300-$600 a year for software. All those extra titles don't really directly impinge on a given author. What we need is a more responsible attitude instead of "mccarthian" anti-piracy. I *always* present the view that piracy is *not* a "good." I try to avoid the "ahoy matey" attitude that fosters blind, meaningless piracy where even good authors are not supported. I think this is a better approach because it is harder to ignore than "all piracy is bad and you will burn in the hell of no software" -- Stephen McLeod, (Native Texican)| Interests: SF/Gaming, Artist, French, Samurai Programmer | Computers, the SCA and friendly people! Vote Spock, The logical choice!| So, whaduya wanna be when you grow up?
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (07/31/89)
>:>>PIRACY DOES HURT US ALL! >:> >:>No arguments here. But I don't seriously believe that the problem is >:>nearly as widespread as you imply. >: >:I guess you've not checked out the software available on Amiga's pirate >:boards for everyone to download free. It is very educational :^) > I've logged on to so called 'pirate boards' before. Most games on such boards are unplayable without instructions. Others are simply corrupt. I tend to believe that 'pirate' boards are more just mismanaged (read Sysop never cleans up the trash) than actively pirate. For example, most Infocom games are available on the various boards in the local area. But without instructions d/l'ing one of them would be like d/l'ing a demo. You can only get so far without the clues and hints that are within the package. (Sherlock without the 'Times', Enchanter without the codewheel, ...) I can;t imagine anyone being able to really play any of the interesting games without the documentation. Now arcade games are probably a different story... > Well my 'personal' feelings are that you should post the names and #'s > of these dens of sin. That way everyone could keep their modems so busy > with garbage calls that no pirating could be done. > This method is illegal. Recently at PRACSA (Public Remote Access Computing Standards Association) we heard about the tracking and eventual arrest of a childs parents who had let him use their computer to tie up a public bulletin board in this way. I would instead recommend calling the FBI. (FBI gets involved because most theft involves crossing of state lines.) There is also a foundation headed by several companies, whose sole purpose is to eradicate piracy. If you know of any 'real' pirate boards, you would be eligible for a $1000 reward from them. I don't have the literature available at the moment. But they distinctly said that they were not interested in primarily PD BBS's where a couple of copyrighted pieces of software had slipped past the sysop. To summarize my own feelings: I don't really believe that piracy is nearly the problem that people claim. I don't know anyone who regularly plays pirated games. It would be untrue to claim that I've never used any cracked or pirated software, but anything that I use regularly I buy. (Anything that I don't use regularly I delete. I don't have enough disk space for useless software.) If I had had the choice, I would have tried illegal copies of more of the software that I currently own before buying it. I have at least $500 in legal game software. Of that I currently only use Dungeon Master, and F/A - 18 Interceptor. Others that were worth the cost are Starglider, Sherlock, (in fact all of the Infocom games) and Bard's Tale. Losers were: Paladin, Bard's Tale II, Ultima IV, Sorcerer Lord, Moebius, Temple of Apshai, and Shadowgate to name a few. It could be worse. I could be stuck with every lousy piece of game software on the market. But these have made me wary. I've learned not to buy until I've tried. -Sullivan Segall _________________________________________________________________ /V\ Sullivan was the first to learn how to jump without moving. ' Is it not proper that the student should surpass the teacher? To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _________________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (07/31/89)
In article <9180.AA9180@heimat> sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) writes: $In Message <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: $ $>I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", $>as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. $>Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever $>conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. $>NOT ONE. $ WOW! What convention was this im sure alot of developers would like to $ attend it next time ;-) Covert Contraption, in Southfield Michigan. It was held at the Michigan Inn. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) (08/01/89)
> program is selling, and then they go and figure that the 10,000 kids > who've illegally copied it would have bought it were it not available > under the Jolly Roger. That, I'm afraid, is utterly absurd. > Even if 10% of those 10,000 kids went out and bought the software, that would translate into 1000 additional units, which is a considerable number from the standpoint of most Amiga developers. I can tell you that Dragon's Lair outsold our initial expectations because it's protection lasted for over 5 months, but as soon as a cracked version appeared, sales dropped down to nothing. While it may make you feel better on a Friday night to have your favoriate cracked game handy, it's making my Friday nights much leaner than they deserve to be after many months of hard work! -- Mark Vange Phone Death Threats to: Vanguard Distributing (416) 730-1352 mark@xrtll 8 Everingham Ct. North York "Every absurdity has a champion Ont, Canada M2M 2J5 to defend it." - Oliver Goldsmith
esker@abaa.uucp (Lawrence Esker) (08/01/89)
>$>I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", >$>as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. > >$>Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever >$>conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. >$>NOT ONE. > >Covert Contraption, in Southfield Michigan. It was held at the Michigan Inn. I wanted to avoid commenting on this thread, but after seeing the above, I couldn't resist. I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS WHOLE THREAD STARTED BECAUSE HE WENT TO A CONVENTION THAT SPECIALISES IN PIRATING SOFTWARE. JUST LOOK AT THE NAME! This one person took what he saw at a pirate convention and automatically assumed the Amiga market specialises in pirating software. Go back to Philosophy 101. Generalizing from the specific is a logic FOOBAR. Another logic FOOBAR is to assume that if people had to buy the software they pirate, they would. The so called "lost revenue" due to pirating is a fictitious number. If pirating did not exist, additional developer income would be a much smaller percentage of this number, if it exists at all. Personally, all the software I have ever pirated (except my C compiler), I would not touch with a garbage bag full of AmigaDOS v1.0 workbench disks if I had to buy them. Every one of them is in the deepest dungeons of my junk drawer, and erased whenever I need a spare disk. In several cases, I actually bought the product because I had a chance to pirate it first and I liked it and a newer upgrade was on the market (Negative Lost Revenue?) For the C compiler, two of my friends and I split the cost of one package. Each of us would have went PD if we did not belive in occasiosional pirating. Again, the developer gained a sale in real dollars even though he lost two sales in fictitious dollars due to pirating. No, I do not condone mass pirating. I do not believe mass pirating is any worse on the Amiga than any other 'personal' computer. I place mass piraters, who pirate for the sport of it, on the same level of scum as those who write and release viruses. I do believe people who treat shitty software as shareware, pay for it only if they like it, is the only way to get the garbage-product-profit-only software vendors out of the Amiga market. -- ---------- Lawrence W. Esker ---------- ^k i /From: flamer@name/j <ESC> :wq \ * * * ******* / \ * * * * * / Sr. Hardware/ASIC Design Engineer \ * * * * * ***** / Allen-Bradley Communications Div. \ * * * * * * / Phone: (313)668-2500 (313)973-8561 \ ******* * * ******* / Compuserve: ?????-???? ----------------------------- (A new job for LWE, please!) UseNet Smart: esker@abaa.uucp or abaa!esker@itivax.iti.org UseNet Other: __!uunet!mimsy!rutgers!citi!itivax!abaa!esker Nothing left to do but :-) :-) :-)
slc@hoptoad.uucp (Steve Costa) (08/01/89)
In article <1989Jul30.210112.10525@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >In article <9180.AA9180@heimat> sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) writes: >$In Message <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >$ >$>I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", >$>as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. > >$>Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever >$>conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. >$>NOT ONE. > >$ WOW! What convention was this im sure alot of developers would like to >$ attend it next time ;-) > >Covert Contraption, in Southfield Michigan. It was held at the Michigan Inn. > >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) >Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] >Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" I wish you had been more specific with the term "SF convention" in your original message. I thought you were referring to the Amiga Developers conference in _S_an _F_rancisco (SF). Now I see that you were apparently talking about a _S_cience _F_iction convention. I hope not many people made the same interpretation that I did.
raw@mcnc.org (Russell Williams) (08/01/89)
In article <333@xrtll.UUCP> mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: >> program is selling, and then they go and figure that the 10,000 kids >I can tell you that Dragon's Lair outsold our initial expectations because >it's protection lasted for over 5 months, but as soon as a cracked version >appeared, sales dropped down to nothing. While it may make you feel better >on a Friday night to have your favoriate cracked game handy, it's making my >Friday nights much leaner than they deserve to be after many months of hard >work! Well, if you could tell me where I could get a cracked version, I'd go out and buy it again. I purchased Dragon's Lair twice, and both times one of the disks was defective. I'm not a big fan of returning disks to the manufacturer, because in the case of Dragon's lair, the possibility of waiting two or three weeks to get another version that was messed up seemed a little too likely. Besides, I kind of lose my enthusiasm for a game when I have to do this. If there's a cracked version, though, I can rely on it to work properly, as opposed to MicroProse's Silent Service. I bought that three times, and after all the disks went bad, I went to a pirate and got a cracked copy that didn't have the keyword protection and WORKED!!!! I can't copy Sword of Sodan, but at least its copy protection doesn't make my drive sound like it's dying, and the game doesn't crash at random times. My original Silent Service disk now has a cracked copy on it. As a side note, MicroProse answered my original letter notifying them of the problem SIX MONTHS after I sent it. Their note politely informed me that they had realized the problem, and that if I sent them the disk back, they would send me a better copy. I replied with a letter telling them that I had found better customer support with the pirates, and have not heard from them since. I don't mind copy protection. But I do mind disks that have a high failure rate, and I do mind disks that make my disk drives beg to be put out of their mercy. I mind key words as well, but then again, I don't own a hard drive, and I see their use. By the way, has anybody found a way to copy Gunship or SimCity, two of the worst offenders with the groaning drive? My kingdom for the return of Marauder!!!!! Russell
stewartw@warpdrive.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (08/02/89)
In article <KUDLA.89Jul28002804@pawl13.pawl.rpi.edu> kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: >That's the problem with software piracy- people look at how well their >program is selling, and then they go and figure that the 10,000 kids >who've illegally copied it would have bought it were it not available >under the Jolly Roger. That, I'm afraid, is utterly absurd. >Have I pirated? Yeah, plenty, but not much on the Amiga. On the C64 > [...] >reward its programmers for their fantastic job. So, when I feel like >something pretty to look at or play, I either go ftp a Badge Demo or >hoist the Jolly Roger once again. I play the game for a day and get > >Now, people are going to say "But if you can't afford it and it's not >to be had for rent, that's your tough luck! You still can't pirate >it." But you're mistaken. If I could afford this stuff, I wouldn't >pirate- but I'm not going to go without because someone else is going Hey, Robert I just bought this TV, but reception around here stinks and I can't afford cable. So like I just hooked the old TV up to the neighbours cable line. Why should they care? After all it's my god-given right to have what everyone else has even if I can't afford it. I mean the cable company wouldn't be seeing any of this money, right. Actually, I don't hook it up all the time. Only when I really feel like watching something interesting do I hoist the Jolly Roger. Those TV shows are boring ... I get tired of them really quickly ... so many reruns. If you can't afford the software, don't buy the computer. We don't have the right to something just because we can't afford it (with the possible exception of necessities). The cable TV company doesn't run the cable by your house just to keep you amused ... it's a business. Software is no different. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... canary winged parakeet." CANADA K1G 3Z4
sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) (08/02/89)
In Message <1989Jul30.210112.10525@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: =In article <9180.AA9180@heimat> sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) writes: =$In Message <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: = =$>Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever =$>conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. =$>NOT ONE. = =$ WOW! What convention was this im sure alot of developers would like to =$ attend it next time ;-) = =Covert Contraption, in Southfield Michigan. It was held at the Michigan Inn. So what is a "Convert Contraption" ?!? What is/was the purpose of this convention? Was this Amiga or Non-Amiga software? When/where is the next convention? Sneakers -- ___ Dan "Sneakers" Schein //// BERKS AMIGA BBS Sneakers Computing //// 80+ Megs of software & messages 2455 McKinley Ave. ___ //// 12/2400 Baud - 24 Hrs West Lawn, PA 19609 \\\\ //// 215/678-7691 \\\\//// {pyramid|rutgers|uunet}!cbmvax!heimat!sneakers
sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) (08/02/89)
In Message <20868@cup.portal.com>, Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) writes:
=> Well my 'personal' feelings are that you should post the names and #'s
=> of these dens of sin. That way everyone could keep their modems so busy
=> with garbage calls that no pirating could be done.
=>
=This method is illegal. Recently at PRACSA (Public Remote Access Computing
=Standards Association) we heard about the tracking and eventual arrest of
=a childs parents who had let him use their computer to tie up a public
=bulletin board in this way.
WOW! I never thought anyone would care enough to get involved in a case
like this. Perhaps the laws view on BBS'es are changing - I always got
the general impression that a BBS was something they knew nothing about
and didnt really care to learn about.
This is *GREAT* news!
Sneakers
--
___
Dan "Sneakers" Schein //// BERKS AMIGA BBS
Sneakers Computing //// 80+ Megs of software & messages
2455 McKinley Ave. ___ //// 12/2400 Baud - 24 Hrs
West Lawn, PA 19609 \\\\ //// 215/678-7691
\\\\////
{pyramid|rutgers|uunet}!cbmvax!heimat!sneakers karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (08/02/89)
In article <625@uranus.UUCP> esker@uranus.UUCP (Lawrence Esker) writes: >>$>I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", >>$>as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. >> >>$>Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever >>$>conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. >>$>NOT ONE. >> >>Covert Contraption, in Southfield Michigan. It was held at the Michigan Inn. >I wanted to avoid commenting on this thread, but after seeing the above, I >couldn't resist. > > I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS WHOLE THREAD STARTED BECAUSE HE WENT TO A CONVENTION > THAT SPECIALISES IN PIRATING SOFTWARE. JUST LOOK AT THE NAME! Can you read? "SF" means, in the vernacular, SCIENCE FICTION. "Covert Contraption" is a SF con held in Michigan each year, has been for quite some time. The name derives from the fact that your convention ID badges have either "CIA" or "KGB" imprinted on them -- you can choose which. The con does NOT exist for the piracy of software -- but there certainly was rabid piracy there. I also direct you to the recent post by a distributor of "Dragon's Lair", who stated that the program outsold all expectations -- UNTIL a cracked version showed up. Then the sales trickled down to NEAR ZERO. Sure, those 20,000 copies wouldn't all have been purchased if there was no piracy. But if the kids couldn't crack the program, I bet 2,000 more copies would have been sold from that 20k out there now. And $2,000 * $50 each is $100,000 -- enough to make it worth while to bring out Dragon's Lair II. As it sits, perhaps it is not worth doing the second one. Do you like the potential result of this? The lack of further development for the AMIGA platform? The self-serving statements I have seen here, basically that "well, I pirate, but only when necessary" are a bunch of crock. Look, people, piracy is defined by the law as STEALING. If you don't like this, then CHANGE THE LAW. Once you have done that, however, don't get pissed when there is no more commercial software available -- and you have to write ALL your own stuff, not to mention writing your own compiler to build them with! Look at nations which don't respect Copyright at all -- NONE of the commercial software products are available for sale there, because the publishers know damn well that they would only sell one copy. Software development is an EXPENSIVE business. Packages like F18 interceptor, Dragon's Lair, "C" compilers, and others are not cheap to bring to market. When you copy something without paying for it, you are stealing. If you cannot afford it, then GO WITHOUT. It won't kill you. Pirating software is like the following scenario: You have a programmer write you some software. Then, after it is done, you say "Well, I only have $50 to spend, even though you expected $500 and I told you I would pay you that. Since my food is more important than your livelihood, I am going to buy groceries, keep the program and screw you -- hell, you have more time available to you and can always write the program again. Furthermore, I am going to give away your work to anyone who wants it." That is, in a word, disgusting. With the Amiga you don't have the luxury of an installed base of 500,000 systems as you do with MSDOS. You have perhaps 50,000 systems. Due to this, piracy KILLS software development much faster on the Amiga than it does on DOS machines -- there are simply fewer copies to be sold to begin with; if 9 out of 10 are stolen rather than sold then companies have little or no incentive to continue development. Consider this: 50,000 installed systems 10% purchase a given program (say, a game) Thus there are 5,000 potential sales 5,000 * $50 = $250,000 in potential sales (a nice hunk of change) Now, if you have rabid piracy, what you get is: 5,000 potential sales 90% steal rather than buy 500 actual sales 500 * $50 = $25,000 in actual sales (which, after publishers get their share, doesn't pay the author enough to make it worth while to write the next one). In the MSDOS world it is slightly different. Authors can make a decent living even with 9/10ths piracy. Even there it hurts -- if piracy stopped tomorrow many MORE authors would be out there -- the money would attract them. Given the installed Amiga base, this machine simply cannot afford piracy on the scale I have observed and still keep the software producers out there supporting it. I know this much for certain -- WE are not going to produce a commercial product if we only envision selling 500 copies at $50 each -- it won't cover our production and development costs. Think about that the next time you pirate software -- before you apply your cute rationalizations about what you are doing. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (08/03/89)
<KUDLA.89Jul28002804@pawl13.pawl.rpi.edu> <333@xrtll.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc. Keywords: In article <333@xrtll.UUCP> mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: >I can tell you that Dragon's Lair outsold our initial expectations because >it's protection lasted for over 5 months, but as soon as a cracked version >appeared, sales dropped down to nothing. Down to ZERO? I find that hard to believe. Sure sales probably dropped down after 5 months, but why must it be due to pirating? Maybe everyone who wanted to buy Dragon's lair did so in the first 5 months. I know over half of my local user's group went out and bought it within the first month of it's release. That's BOUGHT, not stolen. The other half or so of the group isn't interested in it. Dragon's lair was a terrific hit. It's like a new movie. Almost everyone who goes to see a new movie does so within the first month of it's release, then the ticket sales drop drastically. Look at BATMAN. over 50 million the first week. You couldn't even get in the theater, the lines were so long; now it's doing about average for a new movie that's been out this long. Perhaps Dragon's lair is doing the same. A great first 5 months and now your entire market is not the entire Amiga community anymore, but just the small segment who are just now getting Amigas and want to get a terrific game like Dragon's Lair. Some of the loss is sure to be due to piracy, but I can't see all of your loss in sales being blamed on piracy. -- John Sparks | {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps ||||||||||||||| sparks@corpane.UUCP | 502/968-5401 thru -5406 As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error.
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (08/03/89)
<625@uranus.UUCP> <1989Aug2.144138.24257@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Sender: Reply-To: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc. Keywords: In article <1989Aug2.144138.24257@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > [long disertation on pirating ommited. very good though] > >With the Amiga you don't have the luxury of an installed base of 500,000 >systems as you do with MSDOS. You have perhaps 50,000 systems. Due to >this, piracy KILLS software development much faster on the Amiga than it >does on DOS machines -- there are simply fewer copies to be sold to begin >with; if 9 out of 10 are stolen rather than sold then companies have little >or no incentive to continue development. Consider this: > > 50,000 installed systems > 10% purchase a given program (say, a game) > Thus there are 5,000 potential sales > > 5,000 * $50 = $250,000 in potential sales (a nice hunk of change) > > Now, if you have rabid piracy, what you get is: > > 5,000 potential sales > 90% steal rather than buy > 500 actual sales > > 500 * $50 = $25,000 in actual sales (which, after publishers get > their share, doesn't pay the author enough > to make it worth while to write the next one). One thing though Karl..... There are over 1 million Amiga's out there, not 50,000. CBM passed the 1 million mark earlier this year. so 1,000,000 Amigas maybe 100,000 potential sales maybe 30% rather steal than buy <--- more realistic than 90%, but still high. 70,000 actual sales 70,000 * $50 = $3,500,000 if there was no pirating, then 100,000 * 50 = 5,000,000 but who is to say that those pirates would have bought it anyway? Still 3.5 million is a hefty sum. -- But the rest of your article is pretty good, although I still personally think that you just had a bad experience with piracy (the convention) and that the problem is NOT as widespread as you think. Most of the people I know don't pirate (about 60 amiga owners I know). Those that do, aren't the MASS pirateers that you saw. I know maybe 3 or 4 people out of that 60 who do pirate, and I just don't associate with them. And I am not going to turn them in for swiping 4 or 5 games. But If I came across such a blatent display such as you did, I would have turned them in. -- John Sparks | {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps ||||||||||||||| sparks@corpane.UUCP | 502/968-5401 thru -5406 As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error.
raw@mcnc.org (Russell Williams) (08/03/89)
In article <6712@warpdrive.UUCP> stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) writes: > > If you can't afford the software, don't buy the computer. We don't >have the right to something just because we can't afford it (with >the possible exception of necessities). The cable TV company doesn't >run the cable by your house just to keep you amused ... it's a business. >Software is no different. The point that you're missing is that unless damage results from copying, no one's going to feel a moral impetus to refrain from doing it. Your example of the cable TV company is a good one. Let's assume that I just wanted to watch one special show. The cable company offers no other plan than a complete installation. The cost of the installation is prohibitively expensive. So, I tap into the cable and watch the show. After the show, I cut it off and never use it again. What's transpired here? The cable company loses no money, and I gain pleasure. The world is better off. Now, if I had two hundred dollars in my pocket that was earmarked for WordPerfect, found out that it wasn't copy protected, copied it, and spent the two hundred on two or three copy protected games, then damage would have occuredbecause the company would have benefited from the purchase, except for the fact that it was convenient for me to copy. The world is better off for me, but worse off for the company. This is a bad thing. For that matter, pirating can often bring the company money it would not have otherwise obtained. I keep several programs around that I have not purchased as demo programs. I never use them for myself, but when someone comesaround to look at the Amiga, I show them the program. A good example is Doug's Math Aqaurium. I showed a friend the Amiga with a lot of programs running, and the one that stood out for my friend was DMA. Now my friend has an Amiga and PURCHASED a copy of DMA. Pirating brought money into his company, without damaging it in anyway. I would have never have bought the program, but the decision to buy the Amiga was very much swayed by the demo of DMA. So, before you jump onto your high horse and start raging against all pirating, stop and think for a minute about the different facets and their potential benefits. Like many things, pirating can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how the individual uses it. Russell
milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) (08/03/89)
The only real way to end software piracy (in the real world with the kind
of people that are out there) is to make the cost and inconvenience of
copying a game MORE than the purchase price. This has consistantly proven
to be the case in many other industries.
Publishing for instance...nobody makes copies of a paperback book, because
it would be too much of a pain to copy a book that only costs $4. People
rarely copy hard back books, because it's easier just to wait for an
inexpensive paperback to come out.
Records & CD's are somewhat easier to copy...however a lot of people would
rather spend the $8-15 to get an original than go to the bother of making
a tape.
I can understand the reasons why things like C compilers & such sell for $500
and I'm willing to pay that much because I understand the product has a
limited market. A game, however, should NOT cost $50! (particularly some
of the ROTTEN games I've seen out there). A lot of the games I've seen
I would consider worth $5-$10 but VERY few are of $50 quality.
I think a lot of manufacturers have to get with it, pricing wise, computer
prices have been coming down at a staggering rate, but game software costs
have actually gone up. Today I can buy a major motion picture that cost
$40 MILLION dolars to make...for $19.95...I can buy a 500 page novel that
someone took a year to write...for $5. Games certainly cost less to develop
than a major movie, require about the same effort as a major paperback novel
and cost less to duplicate than the average video tape. Granted, the market
is smaller, but so are the development costs.
I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good
game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens. If the sales of Dragon's
Lair are as bad as people have been saying (since piracy) maby the manufacturer
could try it with that package as a test (what have they got to loose if
sales are near 0 now).
Next week...why do vinal records cost $8 and CDs cost $15 when CD's cost less
to make?
Greg Corson
19141 Summers Drive
South Bend, IN 46637
(219) 277-5306
{pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo
P.S. Just so you know I'm not talking through my hat...I develop games
as part of my living...so I know the effort involved.jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (08/03/89)
In article <333@xrtll.UUCP>, mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: >> program is selling, and then they go and figure that the 10,000 kids >> who've illegally copied it would have bought it were it not available >> under the Jolly Roger. That, I'm afraid, is utterly absurd. >> > > Even if 10% of those 10,000 kids went out and bought the software, that > would translate into 1000 additional units, which is a considerable number > from the standpoint of most Amiga developers. > > I can tell you that Dragon's Lair outsold our initial expectations because > it's protection lasted for over 5 months, but as soon as a cracked version > appeared, sales dropped down to nothing. While it may make you feel better > on a Friday night to have your favoriate cracked game handy, it's making my > Friday nights much leaner than they deserve to be after many months of hard > work! > > -- > Mark Vange Phone Death Threats to: > Vanguard Distributing (416) 730-1352 mark@xrtll > 8 Everingham Ct. North York "Every absurdity has a champion > Ont, Canada M2M 2J5 to defend it." - Oliver Goldsmith From what I've heard about Dragon's Lair, the fact that sales dropped down to practically nothing has very little to do with the good copy protection. Everything I have heard about the game has been along the lines of "nice graphics, no substance", "why does one of my disks fail every week", and so on. F-18 interceptor, which had NO physical copy protection (only a codewheel, and that could be duplicated manually, not to mention the fact that it was cracked through software soon after the game's release) seemed to sell strongly for quite a long time. -- James A. Treworgy "You should have seen me with the poker man, jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu I had a honey and I bet a grand, jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET Just in the nick of time I looked at his hand" Box 5033 Wesleyan Station -Paul McCartney Middletown, CT 06475
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (08/03/89)
In article <1989Aug2.144138.24257@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: [stuff deleted] > > The self-serving statements I have seen here, basically that "well, I > pirate, but only when necessary" are a bunch of crock. Look, people, > piracy is defined by the law as STEALING. If you don't like this, then > CHANGE THE LAW. > > Once you have done that, however, don't get pissed when there is no more > commercial software available -- and you have to write ALL your own stuff, > not to mention writing your own compiler to build them with! > > Look at nations which don't respect Copyright at all -- NONE of the > commercial software products are available for sale there, because the > publishers know damn well that they would only sell one copy. > > Software development is an EXPENSIVE business. Packages like F18 > interceptor, Dragon's Lair, "C" compilers, and others are not cheap to bring > to market. When you copy something without paying for it, you are stealing. > If you cannot afford it, then GO WITHOUT. It won't kill you. [more deleted] > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) > Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] > Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" I would ask you to look back a few years ago to the UK, where there were no copyright laws (until recently). When I had a commodore 64, I used to subscribe to a couple UK C-64 magazines. You know what the difference between software here and there is? In the UK, where there is (was?) presumeably lots of piracy since there were no copyright laws for software, the average price for a computer game (retail!) was 15 pounds (about 20 bucks) and I NEVER saw one for more than 20 pounds. And the quality of the software was MUCH better than the average game being cranked out in the U.S. I can tell you there is nothing more aggravating than spending upwards of 50 bucks for a computer game which has been much hyped in magazine articles and ads (DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS LAIR) when the game is SLOW, UNPLAYABLE and the DISKS FAIL EVERY TWO WEEKS. I have vowed never again to buy a game without playing it for a couple hours. I am more than happy to pay for games which offer at least a couple hours of enjoyment... some examples for aspiring software developers. Dungeon Master, F-18 Interceptor, Faery Tale Adventure are the first things that come to mind. I never regretted spending money on these games, and I their producers never regretted the fact that I played someone else's copy first. -- James A. Treworgy "You should have seen me with the poker man, jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu I had a honey and I bet a grand, jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET Just in the nick of time I looked at his hand" Box 5033 Wesleyan Station -Paul McCartney Middletown, CT 06475
denbeste@bbn.com (Steven Den Beste) (08/04/89)
In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: > >I think a lot of manufacturers have to get with it, pricing wise, computer >prices have been coming down at a staggering rate, but game software costs >have actually gone up. The whole electronics industry has been wrestling with the contradictions of changing hardware and software costs. As time has gone on, hardware has gotten easier to design and cheaper to manufacturer, while software has stayed remarkably level - that is, it costs about the same per K to develop (a lot) and to manufacture (almost nil) as it did 15 years ago. Software development procedures are barely beyond the cottage industry stage, even now. The great triumph of the industrial revolution was the ability to manufacture very large and complex consumer goods by the millions. This enormous manufacturing run causes any fixed up-front costs to virtually vanish in the selling price. We've all grown up with it so we're used to thinking this way about things. I call this the "weight test" - the object we buy should LOOK and FEEL like it cost to manufacture about what we are paying. Before I go on, let's take a common example of a case where this doesn't apply. Suppose you see a painting at an art show, and the price on it is $500 or $1000. It doesn't pass the "weight" test - you can buy a print for $10 that looks just as good. But the painting is one-of-a-kind, and as such the design time (the time spent by the artist) massively outweighs the manufacturing cost (in this case, the cost of paint and canvas, plus labor for the frame and suchlike). Since the manufacturing run is exactly 1, the design cost makes up virtually all of the selling price. So it is for software. In a deleted section, Greg says he understands why a compiler costs $500, but doesn't think that games should cost that much - $25 at the most. The cost of developing a really high-quality game at a big software house is staggering, and can exceed the cost for a compiler. Even when this is divided among all the copies which are sold, it still represents a lot of money. Worse, in terms of accounting you have to think of that money as being borrowed from a bank, with interest to pay. A package costing $300,000 to develop (say, 4 person-years of effort) may need to pay back twice that before it breaks even, depending on the times involved. > Today I can buy a major motion picture that cost >$40 MILLION dolars to make...for $19.95 ...Yes, but that motion picture is also making money at the box office, and from TV broadcast on cable, on networks and by syndication. If video-tape was the ONLY source of income to offset the production costs, you'd see the price sky-rocket - and you'd see rampant piracy, too. > ...I can buy a 500 page novel that >someone took a year to write...for $5. (Only 1 person-year? Not very much by software standards.) ...Yes, but most large publishing houses use profits from an occasional blockbuster to underwrite other books which actually lose money. Random House or Doubleday can do this because they are really big, and because when they do hit with a blockbuster, they hit for a LOT of money. That 500 page novel cost a few cents to manufacture, and you probably pay $8 or $9 for it instead of $5. A buck or a buck and a half of that goes to the store and distributer. The rest comes back to the publisher to offset their expenses. For software, on the other hand, about half the cover price stays with the dealer and distributer. By the way, have you checked out the price on K&R's "The C Programming Language" recently? Last time I looked it was $25, and it's only 220 pages. The difference is that it is aimed at a nitch market, so the price has to be higher because the volume will be lower. (Also, Prentice Hall is milking it for everything they can get, because to a great extent they have a captive market.) ALL software (except maybe that intended for clones) is aimed for markets even smaller than the one K&R is aimed at [all programmers of any computer which offers C, and that's a LOT!] and as such must be priced higher to offset the lower expected sales. > Games certainly cost less to develop >than a major movie, ...Yes, but motion picture studios also use profits from successful films to underwrite films which fail. A small software house just hasn't got the resources to do this. One product failure may be enough to sink them. > require about the same effort as a major paperback novel ...Yes, but the potential audience for the software package is minimal by comparison, so the creation cost PER UNIT SOLD is much higher. >and cost less to duplicate than the average video tape. ...Yes, but in this class of product the creation cost largely overshadows the cost of manufacture. Even if videotapes or software could be manufactured for free it wouldn't really affect the sales price by much. > Granted, the market >is smaller, but so are the development costs. ...Yes, but the market is a lot more small than the development cost, so the cost PER UNIT SOLD is much higher. > >I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good >game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens. It's been done. There were a couple of "magazine on a disk" that were selling for about $8 for the Amiga, and I believe they both went belly-up. More interesting is the fact that these were distributing documentation and software from the public domain, so they didn't have to pay the programmers - and they STILL went under. > If the sales of Dragon's >Lair are as bad as people have been saying (since piracy) maby the manufacturer >could try it with that package as a test (what have they got to loose if >sales are near 0 now). Even if the per-unit manufacturing costs is low, the total amount invested to try what you are saying would be large, and they don't really want to throw $40,000 or $50,000 down a rat hole. You are welcome give it a try when YOU have that much money you are willing to invest in an experiment... >P.S. Just so you know I'm not talking through my hat...I develop games > as part of my living...so I know the effort involved. However, I'll bet that someone else does the marketing and distribution for you. Steven C. Den Beste || denbeste@bbn.com (ARPA/CSNET) BBN Communications Corp. || {apple, usc, husc6, csd4.milw.wisc.edu, 150 Cambridge Park Dr. || gatech, oliveb, mit-eddie, Cambridge, MA 02140 || ulowell}!bbn.com!denbeste (USENET)
ins_adjb@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Daniel Jay Barrett) (08/04/89)
In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: >I can understand the reasons why things like C compilers & such sell for $500 >and I'm willing to pay that much because I understand the product has a >limited market. A game, however, should NOT cost $50! (particularly some >of the ROTTEN games I've seen out there). A lot of the games I've seen >I would consider worth $5-$10 but VERY few are of $50 quality. Chuck McManis posted a VERY good article last year about the cost of making, distributing, and supporting a computer program such as a game. I wouldn't mind at all if he reposted it. It struck home for a lot of people. >Today I can buy a major motion picture that cost $40 MILLION dollars to >make...for $19.95... But the motion picture already made 100 gazillion dollars in the movie theaters. Try releasing a mega-million-dollar movie ONLY on videotape and see if you don't go bankrupt. >I can buy a 500 page novel that someone took a year to write...for $5. Novels don't require user support or bugfixes. Well, at least customers don't EXPECT it. Dan //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Systems Administrator barrett@cs.jhu.edu (128.220.13.4) | | Dept. of Computer Science, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218 | | E-mail addresses: ARPANET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | BITNET: ins_adjb@jhuvms.bitnet | | UUCP: ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP noog | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (08/04/89)
In article <5007@alvin.mcnc.org> raw@mcnc.org.UUCP (Russell Williams) writes: > So, before you jump onto your high horse and start raging against all >pirating, stop and think for a minute about the different facets and their >potential benefits. Like many things, pirating can be a good thing or a bad >thing depending on how the individual uses it. The "benefits of pirating"? You must be joking! Ha, ha, ha! Get a life, dude. Some people will go to no length to justify their own unethical behavior, but you clearly win the prize for most originality :^) -- Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Diga and Caligari!" -- Rick Unland -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
dwl10@uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) (08/04/89)
It would be interesting to hear from some REAL developers/distributors
of Amiga software on the breakdown of costs.
Anyone out there, especially "game" developers, willing to provide
any info? If you want, keep your identity secret, 'cuse I sure that
the IRS is listening! :-)
--
"What is another word | Dave Lowrey | [The opinions expressed MAY be
for 'Thesaurus'?" | Amdahl Corp. | those of the author and are not
| Houston, Texas | necessarily those of his
Steven Wright | amdahl!dwl10 | employer] (`nuff said!)Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (08/04/89)
Karl, Oh come now!! I agree with you on your points concerning piracy and the brain damaged nimrods that complain that if they can't afford it then it is ok to copy it. This is silly. I can't afford to buy a diamond ring, does that make it ok to STEAL it? Of course not. What I disagree with is the notion that there is rabid piracy in the Amiga world. This is FAR from the truth. The Amiga comunity per capita does less 'un authorized' backups than any of the other machines. I base this on meetings (user groups), numerous friends I know with other machines, etc.. The WORST by far is MS-DOS! I know 10-20 people who have thousands of disks, and what is scary... one of them is a police officer!! I don't know what types of software you usually do Karl, but it is a dis- service to the Amiga community, and your company for not atleast 'testing the waters'. I mean how can companies like GoldDisk, etc make money if piracy is as bad as you claim. I am not saying that piracy does not exist in the Amiga comunity. What I am saying is that it is foolish to base the entire thing on one bad thing that happend. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
kim@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Geoffrey K Kim) (08/04/89)
In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: >I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good >game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens. If the sales of Dragon's >Lair are as bad as people have been saying (since piracy) maby the manufacturer >could try it with that package as a test (what have they got to loose if >sales are near 0 now). > As a case in point, this is precisely how Borland Intl. got on the map. While other people (Microsoft, Lattice and others) were trying to sell Pascal compilers for megabucks, Borland came out with a quality package at a reasonable price ($79,I think). The problem with current marketing strategies today is that companies actually factor in the 'piracy' factor in their sales. They anticipate piracy and so they raise prices to cover development costs as quickly as possible. Just my $0.02. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | kim @beowulf.UCSD.EDU (Home of the Garden Weasles) | | "... ENGAGE!" -- Jean Luc Picard, STTNG | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) (08/04/89)
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > >I also direct you to the recent post by a distributor of "Dragon's Lair", >who stated that the program outsold all expectations -- UNTIL a cracked >version showed up. Then the sales trickled down to NEAR ZERO. I don't have the original posting available to reply to, but he mentioned that the game had been out five months. Five months is a pretty good lifetime for a game, in my experience (and I've been involved in the games industry for more than 10 years now). The statement he made about the correlation between the cracked version and the drop in sales does not correspond to my own experience in the field, as evidenced by my royalty checks... >Given the installed Amiga base, this machine simply cannot afford piracy >on the scale I have observed Sorry. The machine obviously CAN afford it. It's been doing so since the beginning, just like every other machine out there. Neither side in the piracy debate can prove that their arguments are correct. Without such proof (and I mean hard numbers, not speculation such as "ten percent would buy it if it weren't for piracy" or "no sales are lost due to piracy"), the only thing you can do is to look at the situation as it stands, with piracy as part of the picture. And that situation is, as it has always been, one where some companies do well, and others do not. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.usa
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (08/04/89)
In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP>, milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: > > Next week...why do vinal records cost $8 and CDs cost $15 when CD's cost less > to make? > > Greg Corson > {pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo Vinyl records cost less to make than the packaging they come in. CD's cost between $3 and $6 to make. The process of making a CD is infinitely more complicated than that of making a record. Once a pressing mold has been made for a record, you just stamp out as many copies as you want. For the price of a platter of vinyl. -- James A. Treworgy "You should have seen me with the poker man, jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu I had a honey and I bet a grand, jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET Just in the nick of time I looked at his hand" Box 5033 Wesleyan Station -Paul McCartney Middletown, CT 06475
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (08/04/89)
In article <43756@bbn.COM>, denbeste@bbn.com (Steven Den Beste) writes: > Before I go on, let's take a common example of a case where this doesn't apply. > Suppose you see a painting at an art show, and the price on it is $500 or > $1000. It doesn't pass the "weight" test - you can buy a print for $10 that > looks just as good. But the painting is one-of-a-kind, and as such the design > time (the time spent by the artist) massively outweighs the manufacturing cost > (in this case, the cost of paint and canvas, plus labor for the frame and > suchlike). Since the manufacturing run is exactly 1, the design cost makes up > virtually all of the selling price. > > So it is for software. In a deleted section, Greg says he understands why a > compiler costs $500, but doesn't think that games should cost that much - $25 > at the most. The cost of developing a really high-quality game at a big > software house is staggering, and can exceed the cost for a compiler. > Even when this is divided among all the copies > which are sold, it still represents a lot of money. Worse, in terms of > accounting you have to think of that money as being borrowed from a bank, with > interest to pay. A package costing $300,000 to develop (say, 4 person-years > of effort) may need to pay back twice that before it breaks even, > depending on the times involved. > This is absurd. You're making the wrong analogy here. The game should cost the same as the print. It's not one of a kind, and it's not going to increase in value over the years, and you're not going to enjoy it as much the second, third, etc.. time you look at it (or play it). >>I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good >>game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens. > > It's been done. There were a couple of "magazine on a disk" that were selling > for about $8 for the Amiga, and I believe they both went belly-up. More > interesting is the fact that these were distributing documentation and software > from the public domain, so they didn't have to pay the programmers - and they > STILL went under. > I believe he said ".. a really good game ..". There is a difference between a magazine on a disk and a really good game. Most people aren't interested in paying 8 bucks for a magazine. But might for a really good game. (As a note, "Jump Disk", the oldest Amiga magazine-in-a-disk, is thriving. And the others went under because they couldn't pay their writers... of articles, that is). I can say, definitively, if I saw a game advertised in a magazine, with a neat slick full page color ad, for $10 or $15 (retail), I would buy it that day. I am not a victim to hype, however, for $50 bucks retail. I wait until someone I know gets a copy (or a pirate copy rolls in), I play it, and decide if I want to spend $30 (mail order) for the thing. If the game holds my interest for more than an hour, I buy it. Otherwise, I dump it. Nobody is losing any sales because I got a pirate copy of it. Oh, if nobody I knew ever got a copy of the game, and it looked really neat in the ads, I might eventually break down and buy it. Not likely, but possible. Supposing this game turned out to be really poor. The company would have lost a sale had I had a chance to see it first. Is it wrong, then, that I saw it first and didn't buy it? >> If the sales of Dragon's >>Lair are as bad as people have been saying (since piracy) maby the manufacturer >>could try it with that package as a test (what have they got to loose if >>sales are near 0 now). > > Even if the per-unit manufacturing costs is low, the total amount invested to > try what you are saying would be large, and they don't really want to throw > $40,000 or $50,000 down a rat hole. You are welcome give it a try when YOU > have that much money you are willing to invest in an experiment... For most people, there is a lot less resistance to parting with $10-$20 than with parting with $30-$40. A LOT less. I buy $15 CD's all the time. I only buy a piece of software once every 3-4 months. I probably get about the same enjoyment out of them. That's why I buy CD's so much more often. > > Steven C. Den Beste || denbeste@bbn.com (ARPA/CSNET) > BBN Communications Corp. || {apple, usc, husc6, csd4.milw.wisc.edu, > 150 Cambridge Park Dr. || gatech, oliveb, mit-eddie, > Cambridge, MA 02140 || ulowell}!bbn.com!denbeste (USENET) -- James A. Treworgy "You should have seen me with the poker man, jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu I had a honey and I bet a grand, jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET Just in the nick of time I looked at his hand" Box 5033 Wesleyan Station -Paul McCartney Middletown, CT 06475
joe@cbmvax.UUCP (Joe O'Hara - QA) (08/04/89)
In article <43756@bbn.COM> denbeste@BBN.COM (Steven Den Beste) writes: >In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: >> >>I think a lot of manufacturers have to get with it, pricing wise, computer >>prices have been coming down at a staggering rate, but game software costs >>have actually gone up. > >Before I go on, let's take a common example of a case where this doesn't apply. >Suppose you see a painting at an art show, and the price on it is $500 or >$1000. It doesn't pass the "weight" test - you can buy a print for $10 that >looks just as good. But the painting is one-of-a-kind, and as such the design >time (the time spent by the artist) massively outweighs the manufacturing cost >(in this case, the cost of paint and canvas, plus labor for the frame and >suchlike). Since the manufacturing run is exactly 1, the design cost makes up >virtually all of the selling price. I think you may be surprised at the "manufacturing costs" of a painting. A good friend of mine is a full-time artist whose technique involves "troweling" onto the canvas. His paintings average about 6' x 4' and include about $300 in paint alone. In addition, a gallery typically takes 50-60% of the retail price! -- ======================================================================== Joe O'Hara || Comments represent my own opinions, Commodore Electronics Ltd || not my employers. Any similarity to Software QA || to any other opinions, living or dead, || is purely coincidental. ========================================================================
dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (08/05/89)
> In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP>, milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: > The only real way to end software piracy (in the real world with the kind > of people that are out there) is to make the cost and inconvenience of > copying a game MORE than the purchase price. This has consistantly proven > to be the case in many other industries. > > Publishing for instance...nobody makes copies of a paperback book, because > it would be too much of a pain to copy a book that only costs $4. People > rarely copy hard back books, because it's easier just to wait for an > inexpensive paperback to come out. > > Records & CD's are somewhat easier to copy...however a lot of people would > rather spend the $8-15 to get an original than go to the bother of making > a tape. > Get real. Note that books have a market considerably larger than computers i.e. potentially every person that reads the lingo could buy your book. Sales in the millions are not uncommon. Production cost is stamping ink on cheap paper. Not much. Obviously they can afford to be cheap. Records & CDs similarly address a large homogeneous market and language is sometimes less important than in the book market. Potential audience is still quite large, again millions. > I can understand the reasons why things like C compilers & such sell for $500 > and I'm willing to pay that much because I understand the product has a > limited market. A game, however, should NOT cost $50! (particularly some > of the ROTTEN games I've seen out there). A lot of the games I've seen > I would consider worth $5-$10 but VERY few are of $50 quality. > > I think a lot of manufacturers have to get with it, pricing wise, computer > prices have been coming down at a staggering rate, but game software costs > have actually gone up. Today I can buy a major motion picture that cost > $40 MILLION dolars to make...for $19.95...I can buy a 500 page novel that > someone took a year to write...for $5. Games certainly cost less to develop > than a major movie, require about the same effort as a major paperback novel > and cost less to duplicate than the average video tape. Granted, the market > is smaller, but so are the development costs. > > I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good > game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens. If the sales of Dragon's > Lair are as bad as people have been saying (since piracy) maby the manufacturer > could try it with that package as a test (what have they got to loose if > sales are near 0 now). > In the production of a game there are advertising costs, actual media and duplication costs, manual production costs and duplication costs, boxing, shipping, and dealer cut, game development costs, facilities cost, any show attendances, plus one would hope, some modicum of profit, all into a market that numbers in the 10s of 1000s not the millions. Note also that the amount of product going through the various people along the stages is much less than that in the book or record market so the dollar cut they take will necessarily be higher, they don't sell as many items. By the same token they won't stock as many copies because unsold software is more crucial than unsold books. In my thumbnail survey, the typical game goes around $35 mail order retail. Given the costs and the size of the market that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If a game costs more than I'm willing to pay I don't moan, I don't bitch, I don't pirate, I just don't buy it. Simple. Yes, sometimes you get burned. But realise that to some degree how good a game is, is subjective. Even if it truly is crap, I have read any number of paperbacks that were trashcan material as well. That doesn't excuse abusing those who make decent games or decent books. The cost of developing software passed the cost of developing hardware long ago. This is endemic to the industry, not just game production. Even so, we can draw some parallels. Note that even an expensive development process can get lost easily in the cost of even cheap computers of any significant volume. Note that the major high priced components of computing (disk drives floppies and hard, memory, displays, power supplies, microprocessors) have tremendous volume and shared costs across many different vendors of computers. Note also that most of these components are made of smaller components many of which also have tremendous volume and are shared across many different vendors of all kinds. In fact virtually all of the components of the typical computer is based on standard building blocks which address a large market. Therefore, as production improves and volume goes up on these building blocks they get cheaper (to a point). Software as yet has resisted such efforts at modularity. Even though you can find tools to make some tasks easier i.e. Power Windows, C-BTrees, etc. Generally substantial portions of any given project will have to be coded from scratch. Major motion pictures generally go two THREE markets and make big bucks at each one. First they go to the movies where MILLIONS go to see them at $5 a pop. Then they go to cable which pays them a tidy sum. Finally they make it to video where they typically don't sell for $19.95 unless the film was a major blockbuster and they figure they are going to sell a sh*tload of videotapes. Again, we are talking a HUGE MARKET. Repeat after me HUGE MARKET, ENORMOUS, GRAND WOPPERINO. It is debateable whether the average game costs less to develop than many major paperback novels. They typically have several people developing them some programming, some doing artwork, some writing manuals, it could be but I wouldn't want to place any money on it. I'm not even sure that the duplication costs of the average game are that much less than the average video tape. Just the disk maybe, but you have to add the boxing and the manual, plus putting all the stuff together and shrink wrapping. I'll bet the actual duplication cost of a video tape ain't much. $10 Uh huh. Figure the dealer takes half, given he's willing to allot you shelf space for a product that is going to make him very little money even if it moves like hot cakes since the average Amiga dealer probably doesn't have that many customers. We're are down to $5. Figure a couple of bucks for duplication (this is minimal, Dragon's lair is probably more, consider how many disks we are talking about). Figure a buck or so to ship the sucker around. We've got $2 left. Figure it sells 40,000 copies (twice Dragon's Lair's numbers). 80K when you consider payroll, facility cost, material costs probably about covers one year worth of one full time good programmer. No profit, doesn't cover things like returned defective disks, and user phone line support, any people other than the single programmer. In other words, NOT BLOODY LIKELY. No one has tried it because it isn't worth trying. In the IBM PC marketplace they could probably sell a game for $20 or less and still make money on it, in the Amiga marketplace selling at $35 they are still probably not raking in the dough. If you want a basis for comparison look at the price of computer books, something with a more comparitive market. Look at the price of K&R it goes for >$30 these days and the friggin thing is a paperback, I guarantee it costs less to duplicate than any computer game. I suspect it sells to a larger market than most computer games except for maybe the IBM marketplace. It certainly isn't the only example. It's true that making the theft costs near the selling price is the only final solution. But it simply isn't a practical solution in anything but the largest markets. That doesn't mean that piracy should be condoned or rationalized with the usual idiotic 'they shouldn't charge so much for it if they didn't want it to be pirated'. Kindergarten reasoning. Some people learn at an early age that if I want something in a store I save up my money and buy it, if it costs too much then I look for something else to keep me happy, I don't stuff it under my coat and make off with it 'because it cost too much'. Some people seem to have a hard time with this rather simple principle. And spare me the rationalizing bushwa about how it isn't really stealing anything tangible because its crap. > > Greg Corson > P.S. Just so you know I'm not talking through my hat...I develop games > as part of my living...so I know the effort involved. Greg, do you develop any products other than on-line games where you get on-line royalties and thus advertising, distribution, retailing, and piracy isn't an issue? Just for my own edification, have you really developed games where significant original game design is required, large amounts of artwork, sound and machine specific coding is required? David Albrecht
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/05/89)
In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: >Publishing for instance...nobody makes copies of a paperback book, because >it would be too much of a pain to copy a book that only costs $4. There are 100,000,000 people who might buy a paperback book, about 1-3% of them do that is 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 sold. Just about every book these days that isn't a total dog has the "over a million copies in print" that gives you a pot of $4,000,000 to $12,000,000 to cover expenses. The Amiga market is between 300,000 and 400,000 machines. 1 - 3% is 3,000 to 12,000 people. At even $10 a pop that is $30,000 to $120,000 to cover all expenses. Assuming a markup of 60% then that leaves $18,000 to $72,000. Given a distributor markup of 20% your down to $14,400 to $57,600. Lets say the disk and box and flimsy sheet of instructions cost you $2.00 total, now you are down to $8,400 to $33,600. Note that from the distributor's perspective selling 5,000 copies is a *Killer* hit program. With games 3,000 is more likely. Say it takes you one year to write two games. And you sold a total of 5,000 copies for both games. You've made $14,000 in income and just broken the Federal poverty line. The key thing to always remember is POTENTIAL MARKET SIZE. Ever wonder what a "paperback" cost when Ben Franklin was running the presses? Well the literate population as a percentage of total population was about the same as the computer literate population is today, and books cost over $100 each. (In today's dollars) If it no one can make a living writing games, they won't. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"
silver@cup.portal.com (Jim B Howard) (08/05/89)
To the person who compares copying software to stealing a diamond ring, you forget that in the case of software, the person only loses potential profits. In the case of the diamond, the person loses physical assets, which are definatly measurable. So the analogy is invalid.
mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) (08/05/89)
In article <3byO02zd46Mp01@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, dwl10@uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: > > It would be interesting to hear from some REAL developers/distributors > of Amiga software on the breakdown of costs. > > Anyone out there, especially "game" developers, willing to provide > any info? If you want, keep your identity secret, 'cuse I sure that > the IRS is listening! :-) These are numbers I pick out of my experience in the marketing of three games in the Amiga market and involvement in a few more. Some of these figures were originally in Canadian dollars, and I convert them into US for ease (+ or - 5%) First thing first, to put out a game, you must produce packaging. Full-color boxes, disk labels, manual, warrenty card and the like on a 10,000 unit run is appx $12,000. You might say 'print fewer boxes' but the price difference becomes minimal because most of the cost is for plates, typesetting, inking and the like. Second thing you need is the media, which you can swing at around $0.80-$1.20 per disk. Based on your 10,000 units, that's $10,000 (for convenience) Number 3 thing is the artwork for the game (in terms of the Ad and the like) For decent quality work (4-color seperation of full color poster) you're looking at at least $1000.00. Number 4 thing is the boxes into which you game boxes go for shipping. These are the ones you send to the distributors. A typical one would hold 50 units. 10000/50=200 boxes. Appx $200.00. Assuming you are really persuasive, and you can talk programmers and graphicians (and musicians) into working entirly on a royalty basis, and assuming you can keep it down to 15% of gross (you're doing really well!) along with any appropriate liscensing, you have that owing. In addition, distributors would typically receive 60% off the retail price of the product. Let's pretend that our Mega Blaster from Mars game retails for $50.00. That means we sell MBFM to distributors for $20.00. Of this, 15% goes into royalties. So you're left with 85% of $20.00= $17.00 To cover your investements from before, $10,000+$1000+$200, you must sell at least 650-700 units. One add in Amigaworld costs some $6000.00 (that's 352 units!) Place 3 of them (for three months running) and that's another 1000 units to sell! A couple more adds (in AmigoTimes, Info, Ahoy!, Compute and the like) are in at $1300-2000 each. That's (76-117 units for each add) place it three times, and you're looking at (use 100 for ease!) 100*2*3 because you should really place each add at least three times to get any effect! 600 more units! Attend one trade show (Like AmiExpo) to seem like good corporate citizens and you're talking about $10,000-15,000 for the whole trip. (588-882 units, so we'll use 700) So far you have sold 700+1000+600+700=3000 units, and you've not made any money! In the mean time, you've invested some $20,000 dollars (figure that if you kept it in the bank for a year, you'd have some $22,000). What have we left out? Well, there's all the courier bills for sending your demos around the world to the Amiga press! Also, the costs of selling over-seas are considerably higher, because of money exhange and tariff problems! So for overseas units you're talking about less than $17.00 Now, say you're running out of a relatively small place (2000 square feet) at around $2.15 per foot, you're montly rent is $4300 (253 units). Youre phone bills in this industry add up very quickly (speaking with all those users and magazines around the world) I typically had months where phone bills were between $1000-$3000 (use $2000 for average). That's 117 units per month. You have a secretary that you pay $7.00 per hour (cheap bastard that you are!). 40 hours per week, roughly $1120 per month (65 units). A shipper at $10.00 per hour 40 hours per week = $1600 (94 units). To pay your rent, food, and car payments, you take a salary of $2000 per month (117 units). So, let's pretend we can put our our game for an initial material investement of $20,000. In addition, it took us four months to put the game together, but we'll pretend we didn't pay rent for those months. Now then, at the end of the first month after the release of the game, you will need to have sold 3000 units which we calculated before + 253 to cover rent + 117 to cover phone + 65 to cover secretary + 94 to cover shipper + 117 to cover your salary --------- 3646 units just to cover your costs! In reality, of course, there are a lot of costs which are not covered here, things like paying your add agency a 15% markup, paying taxes on your earnings, paying your accountant, paying your lawyer, buying a fax machine, paying for your hardware and a million and one odds and ends that add up. A typical Amiga game will do well to sell 8000 units! All the extranious costs of doing business add up to a great many more dollars. In addition, we have ignored the cost of selling. Either you hire a salesman (another 100 units per month) or, more likely, you're paying someone commision on sales (then your gross drops by another 5%). Furthermore, $17.00 per unit is being REALLY optimistic. Duplication costs, returns for bad media AND VIRUS INFECTED DISKS, as well as all those free copies you've handed out to the press! If you've printed posters, count on them to be about $4-5 each (for a run of say 1500) that's another 450 units! Well, I could go on, but I think you can see where I'm getting to. The lifespan of a typical game is 4-5 months, so multiply all your fixed costs by at least 4 (so you need to sell 3000+(646*4)=5584 just to cover your ass excluding all these associated but hard to place costs!) Software development is an expensive proposition. Not to mention the fact that as a company grows, it's fixed costs do as well. The model above is a much simplified 4-person operation. A real company will have many more individuals than that! It's not simple, and pirates don't make it any easier! Excuse the long article, but you asked! -- Mark Vange Phone Death Threats to: Vanguard Distributing (416) 730-1352 mark@xrtll 8 Everingham Ct. North York "Every absurdity has a champion Ont, Canada M2M 2J5 to defend it." - Oliver Goldsmith
paulm@lotus.UUCP (Paul Morganthall) (08/06/89)
(regarding an 'invalid' analogy between stealing software and stealing diamonds:) Perhaps that analogy wasn't perfectly crafted, but the idea was the important part. There is a difference between software and diamonds. Just like there is a difference between stealing and not stealing. (sorry if I missed earlier sections of this discussion that were important to this item). ---paul "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -- Pablo Picasso
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (K.J.Jamieson) (08/06/89)
>The WORST by far is MS-DOS! I know 10-20 people who have thousands of disks, >and what is scary... one of them is a police officer!! > Piracy IS a problem, and it >IS< wrong. But it will always be there - just like it will always be there in the video industry. I am NOT saying don't fight it.... but don't get carried away. Karl, I think your perspective may be a bit bet, doing UNIX software is a whole new game, until recently you really COULDN'T pirate UNIX - the software was to version / site specific for it to work. But truly, MS-DOS and C-64 / ATARI - they are the worst percentage wise I would bet. **************************************************************************** * " Salad isn't food, salad is what food eats. " The Zen Monk ALF * * "My thoughts claim no responsibility for my body" * * * * UUCP: tron1@tronsbox.UUCP uunet!mimsy!oddjob!clout!ddsw1!tronsbox!tron1 * * * * Sysop, the Penthouse ]I[ BBS * * (201)759-8450 (201)759-8568 * ****************************************************************************
milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) (08/06/89)
From article <43756@bbn.COM>, by denbeste@bbn.com (Steven Den Beste): > In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: >> > > So it is for software. In a deleted section, Greg says he understands why a > compiler costs $500, but doesn't think that games should cost that much - $25 > at the most. The cost of developing a really high-quality game at a big > software house is staggering, and can exceed the cost for a compiler. > Even when this is divided among all the copies > which are sold, it still represents a lot of money. Worse, in terms of > accounting you have to think of that money as being borrowed from a bank, with > interest to pay. A package costing $300,000 to develop (say, 4 person-years > of effort) may need to pay back twice that before it breaks even, > depending on the times involved. > I think part of the problem is that many game (and other personal computer software) manufactures have yet to discover some of the more advanced tools that can greatly reduce the cost of their software development. I've already seen MAJOR industrial control software systems (like for a blast furnace) be produced for less than the $300,000 mentioned above. Software manufacturers need to make better use of internal software libraries, cross compilers and other such items to reduce cost. > By the way, have you checked out the price on K&R's "The C Programming > Language" recently? Last time I looked it was $25, and it's only 220 pages. > The difference is that it is aimed at a nitch market, so the price has to be > higher because the volume will be lower. (Also, Prentice Hall is milking it for > everything they can get, because to a great extent they have a captive market.) Also note $25 is still less than the average game. > > It's been done. There were a couple of "magazine on a disk" that were selling > for about $8 for the Amiga, and I believe they both went belly-up. More > interesting is the fact that these were distributing documentation and software > from the public domain, so they didn't have to pay the programmers - and they > STILL went under. Most of the software distributed via magazines on disk was not the sort of thing anyone would pay money for. No where near a commercial quality game. > Even if the per-unit manufacturing costs is low, the total amount invested to > try what you are saying would be large, and they don't really want to throw > $40,000 or $50,000 down a rat hole. You are welcome give it a try when YOU > have that much money you are willing to invest in an experiment... > >>P.S. Just so you know I'm not talking through my hat...I develop games >> as part of my living...so I know the effort involved. > > However, I'll bet that someone else does the marketing and distribution for > you. > The latest game I wrote is available ON-LINE on the GEnie system, it's a multiplayer game and currently has support only for the macintosh (other versions are on the way). The point is, I know what the development of this game is costing me...and it's no where NEAR the estimates given above. I'm convinced one of the biggest money eaters in the games business today is porting games to multiple computers. Most places complete a version for one computer, then frequently start almost from scratch for the next computer. Few places know now to co-develop for several computers at the same time. Please note, I'm not trying to slam the games business, I'm not accusing them of money grubbing or anything. HOWEVER, I do believe they need revamp their development process to cut costs. ALSO, my original message still stands... The only way to eliminate software piracy is to make software cheap enough so it isn't worth the time and bother to pirate it. I never said this would be EASY but history of other industries proves it's the ONLY way that has ever really worked well. Greg Corson 19141 Summers Drive South Bend, IN 46637 (219) 277-5306 {pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo
milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) (08/06/89)
From article <331@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, by jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu: > there is nothing more > aggravating than spending upwards of 50 bucks for a computer game which has > been much hyped in magazine articles and ads (DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS > LAIR DRAGONS LAIR DRAGONS LAIR) when the game is SLOW, UNPLAYABLE and the DISKS > FAIL EVERY TWO WEEKS. I have vowed never again to buy a game without playing it > for a couple hours. I am more than happy to pay for games which offer at least > a couple hours of enjoyment... some examples for aspiring software developers. > Dungeon Master, F-18 Interceptor, Faery Tale Adventure are the first things > that come to mind. I never regretted spending money on these games, and I their > producers never regretted the fact that I played someone else's copy first. I agree with this completely, software quality (particularly games) is so variable these days I NEVER EVER spend money on a package without trying it for a few hours first. Considering that VERY FEW stores keep demo copies of games for customers to try, this is kind of hard to do. Usually I manage to dig up a friend who has the game and look at it that way. But sometimes, the only way to look at a game is a pirated copy. In my house, pirated software has a half life of about an hour...I try it, if I like it I go right out and buy it...if not, it's erased. If more stores had demo copies of software to look at, I would just try it there but very few software companies send demos to stores anymore. Many of the demos are just self-running ones, you can't really see how the game plays. In any case, for me this is all pretty much academic...I've been so busy lately, I haven't had time to play the games I've BOUGHT, let alone look at any new ones! Greg Corson 19141 Summers Drive South Bend, IN 46637 (219) 277-5306 {pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo
milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) (08/06/89)
From article <346@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, by jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu: >> > > Vinyl records cost less to make than the packaging they come in. CD's cost > between $3 and $6 to make. The process of making a CD is infinitely more > complicated than that of making a record. Once a pressing mold has been made > for a record, you just stamp out as many copies as you want. For the price of a > platter of vinyl. > -- Sorry...CD's DO NOT cost between $3-6 to make...this is something the record companies would like you to believe. Right TODAY, I can go out and have 1000 copies of a data or music CD made INCLUDING the plastic box, the little folder inside and the printed cardboard box it comes in for under $3 each. You can do quantity 100 (a terriblly small amount) for under $15 each. Anyone care to guess what a press run of 100,000 would cost per disk? Less than $1 I bet. By the way...CD's use a similar stamping process to manufacture...it's a bit more demanding and requires different equipment (and cleaner conditions) than Vinyl...but it's not THAT much more expensive. And remember quality vinyl is not as cheap as it used to be! Greg Corson 19141 Summers Drive South Bend, IN 46637 (219) 277-5306 {pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo
dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (08/07/89)
In article <21023@cup.portal.com>, silver@cup.portal.com (Jim B Howard) writes: > To the person who compares copying software to stealing a diamond > > ring, you forget that in the case of software, the person > only loses potential profits. In the case of the diamond, the > person loses physical assets, which are definatly measurable. > So the analogy is invalid. BFD. X people buy my program, I take the profits and buy a diamond ring. X people steal my program, no diamond ring. The people that stole my program have deprived me of that diamond ring as surely as if they broke in and stole it from my house. That the theft takes the form of not paying me for goods and services which they have benefitted by and then not given me proper compensation rather than via the theft of actual physical assets I would contend is irrelevant hair splitting. I find the analogy perfectly reasonable. You know the thing that amazes me about piracy? Not that 12 year old kids do it. I'm a software engineer and I've always been amazed by the number of Computer Science students that practice it. Here we have a person that after graduation at least hopes to make their living writing software and at the same time they are robbing people in their own profession of just compensation. Boggles the mind. David Albrecht
donw@zehntel.zehntel.com (Don White) (08/08/89)
In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >In article <4929@alvin.mcnc.org> raw@mcnc.org.UUCP (Russell Williams) writes: >>In article <30140@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.UUCP (Evan Mitchell) writes: >>>In article <268@nrcvax.NRC.COM> mikey@nrc.com (Mikey Goodglick) writes: >>>>Bad news people.... Cinemaware may be getting out of producing software > >Let me tell you all a little story.... > >I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", >as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. >Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever >conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. >NOT ONE. >EVERY SINGLE ONE. EACH ONE was copyable, and the people in the room didn't >seem to care much what you did with the disks (ie: if you had a few blanks >I was NOT impressed. Ah, the eyes of Heisenberg. To quote an unknown poet of little renown... STUPID! STUPID! STUPID! THis posting ignores the number one rule of good computing. ALWAYS HAVE BACK UPS! If I can't backup a program, I won't buy it. When a copy program comes out, I buy the copy program AND the protected program I want. Thats right I said BUY! I NEVER take originals into public. It is too risky. Lastly, I like to trust that people won't sit down and copy my programs. If I have to hire a guard, I won't go out into public places. I can't live like that. The gist of this reply is that I consider myself to be an honest person. I did not see anything sinister in your description of the computer meeting. It sounds like you EXPECTED to see piracy. It sounds like all you REALLY saw was carelessness. The rest was your interpretation. Don White Box 271177 Concord, CA. 94527-1177 zehntel!donw
pfaff@mercury.asd.contel.com (Ray Pfaff - Oakwood 457 934-8162) (08/08/89)
Robert Jude Kudla writes: . . (lot of stuff about piracy) . . . >Real disclaimer: I am not advocating piracy. I am also not condemning >it. I am, however, condemning those who are blinded to reality by >imaginary profits..... I'm glad somebody else figured this out. I never could understand why software manufacturers thought that 10,000 pirated copies of something translated to 10,000 sales. I you are offered something for free, it doesn't always mean that you would buy it.
detert@lognet2.af.mil (CMS David K. Detert) (08/08/89)
Subject: Re: No more Cinemaware stuff for Amiga !!!???? In a recent article karl@ddsw1.mcs.com makes some excellent points regarding the potential and very real results of piracy, particularly on a machine with an installed base as low as the Amiga's. While I agree with everything he said, I believe that one of the basic assumptions made by most folks is seriously flawed. That is, that the buyer gets a satisfactory program WORTH the money expended. As an example, I offer Platinum OnLine! (or OnLine! in general). A friend was kind enough to give me his 1.0 version when he sold his A1000 to buy an MSDOS clone. For that I thank him because I WAS about to purchase the program anyway. Anyway, MMS made 69.95 retail. Was the program free of bugs? Of course not (not sure I know of ANY Amiga programs FREE of bugs ever). Was an upgrade offer made when bugs were fixed? I wouldn't know because MSS expects customers to contact them and not vice-versa. Version 2.0 is anounced and I, not knowing any better at the time, purchase that version (since I wasn't the one who sent in the registration card for 1.0). At any rate, another 75.00 for MSS (discounted from the original retail price of 99.95, since lowered to 69.95--and of course they passed out a rebate :-) :-). Bug free, you ask? Not by a long shot. Same non-existent upgrade notice/policy. BTW. Got some upgrades somewhere, but not from MSS, not sure where or when, maybe my local retailer. Anyway, now along comes the ultimate version, PLATINUM. Did I get a notice on this one? You bet! Why? Because they found one of the biggest upgrade loopholes in the Amiga business--make it a semi-new program (ala DP III) and charge what they consider a trade-in fee (what a favor they do for us poor consumers) of 40.00 or so. Did I bite? Sure, I'm in it for this long, what else can I do? But I didn't expect to get a program WORSE off (bug wise) than 1.0 for cryin' out loud. Bugs? You bet, but why should they get their act together now, they have me for the long haul...... Of course, my friends(?) here on the Net suggest I cut my losses and CONVERT to one of the others out there, but WHERE is the guarantee I (the poor little, dumb consumer) don't get the same thing from the next guy waiting for a sucker? Not to make this too long, but I remember the first comm program I bought for my C64. Although they never developed follow on packages for an integrated system, the program WORKED. My first AND ONLY word processor was the same, still have and use them both. No, I don't intend to go out and start pirating software, but I sure as heck believed the dreams of RJ, et al, and thought the Amiga was going to be the ultimate. It's unfortunate that greed too often takes over and makes criminals out of otherwise honest people, ON BOTH SIDES of the issue. Cheers, Dave CMSgt David K Detert, USAF MILNet: detert@lognet2.af.mil PS. I still like OnLine! and will switch to Platinum when the bugs are out, but I sure feel cheated somehow!!!!!!!!!! PPS. Flame away!!!!!!!!
COSC60I@elroy.uh.edu (Bandolar) (08/09/89)
> I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good > game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens. If the sales of Dragon's There is such a thing as volume... If it costs $5000, and you are only going to sell 1000 copies, you have to charge $5 to break even. But... You have to double it for the middle man to $10, then HE doubles it again for the local dealer to $20. But, of course YOU want to make a couple bucks so you charge an extra $2 (7/14/28). For more expensive games/greedier authors/deeper chains of middle men, the cost varies. Same thing with the local chains. Sure, *Wild Buffalos* is a great game and it is a bit expensive at $45. But, the dealer also about *Red Turkeys* that you are not going to buy. You are paying the dealer a premium to a) cover the cost of offering you a selection of products (before they knew if they would be good or bad). b) cover the cost of taking back/replacing bad games. If the volume of the game is high, then the price will be lower somewhere along the chain (hence: mail order and software discount stores). -- Stephen McLeod, native Texican | Interests: SF/Gaming, French, the SCA, Vote Spock, the logical choice | Computers, and friendly people This Space for Rent | So... whadayou wanna be when you grow up?
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (08/10/89)
In article <925@corpane.UUCP>, sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: > One thing though Karl..... There are over 1 million Amiga's out there, not > 50,000. CBM passed the 1 million mark earlier this year. > > so 1,000,000 Amigas > maybe 100,000 potential sales > maybe 30% rather steal than buy <--- more realistic than 90%, but still high. > > 70,000 actual sales > > 70,000 * $50 = $3,500,000 > > if there was no pirating, then 100,000 * 50 = 5,000,000 but who is to say that > those pirates would have bought it anyway? Still 3.5 million is a hefty sum. > -- You must be the man that fell to earth! If you really believe what you are saying you should be selling your own program. There are several flaws in your above posting. 1) 1,000,000 Amigas sold doesn't mean 1,000,000 being used. 2) Selling to 10% of the market is almost unheard of, except for a very few programs like Deluxe Paint. Most software companies are singing in the streets if they can sell to 1% of the market. 3) A list price of $50 dollars means that the producer of the software gets only $20 from software distributors, that is if you can still find one that is still in business. 4) A nice box, manual, disk, and shipping runs an easy $8. 5) Pirates kill a large amount of impulse buying, which can easily amount to 80% of your sells. I know this because less than 20% of the sells every bother to send in registration cards. So the cash equation is more like: 900,000 * (.01) / 2 * $12 = $54,000 Even that may require heavy advertising at about $5,000 a mouth for say 6 months, costing $30,000 total. Leaving about $24,000 to split between everyone involved in producing the software. Now the numbers can move some, but the essence is that your $3,500,000 is off by an order of magitude. Sorry about the cold water, but is very hard to make a living writing Amiga software. Wayne Knapp
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (08/11/89)
In article <903@zehntel.UUCP> donw@zehntel.UUCP (Don White) writes: >In article <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >>Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever >>conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. >>NOT ONE. > >>EVERY SINGLE ONE. EACH ONE was copyable, and the people in the room didn't >>seem to care much what you did with the disks (ie: if you had a few blanks > >>I was NOT impressed. > > Ah, the eyes of Heisenberg. > > To quote an unknown poet of little renown... > STUPID! STUPID! STUPID! > > THis posting ignores the number one rule of good computing. > > ALWAYS HAVE BACK UPS! > > If I can't backup a program, I won't buy it. When a copy program comes > out, I buy the copy program AND the protected program I want. Thats right > I said BUY! I NEVER take originals into public. It is too risky. Riight. Which is why the games didn't require the codewheels and books to start, they all had "security codes" of 00000. And they all said "Cracked by Byte Bandit" or something similar on the title screen, or on a loader which was put up before the game actually loaded. And there were no manuals (original or otherwise) to be found. And there were two or three copies of each title there as well, just in case more than one person wanted to play a given game at any one time -- all on nice fresh 3.5" disks, with hand-printed lables. And.... I could go on. But I won't. That stuff was clearly ripped off. What would you like to bet the odds were that the people running the "computer room" at this SF con had spent $50k on the software contained therein -- even if it WAS just "backup" copies. I bet there weren't more than 100 originals back at their offices and/or homes, TOTAL. Yet there were 10 X that in disks there for use..... > Don White > Box 271177 Concord, CA. 94527-1177 > zehntel!donw -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc.
balzer@frambo.enet.dec.com (Christian Balzer) (08/11/89)
Could we please stop wasting valuable bandwidth with this futile piracy discussions. I'm reading comp.sys.amiga for quite a while now and I believe this is the third time I see this... Please stop (pirating and rambling). Thanks, - <CB> -- _ _ / / | \ \ <CB> aka Christian Balzer - The Software Brewery - // < < |-< > decwrl!frambo.dec.com!CB | unido!decum!frambo.dnet!CB // \ \_ |_/ / I-Net: CB@frambo.enet.dec.com | E-Net: FRAMBO::BALZER \\ // ------------ PMail: Im Wingertsberg 45, D-6108 Weiterstadt, F.R.G. \X/
collins@Alliant.COM (Phil Collins) (08/11/89)
I would rather read about piracy than that 1.4 wish list i have been reading and reading and reading for months.If you don't like the article,then skip over it like I do for the wish list. Simple!
steve@morgoth.UUCP (Steve Hall) (08/11/89)
In article <1523@ndmath.UUCP>, milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes: > From article <346@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, by jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu: > >> > > > > Vinyl records cost less to make than the packaging they come in. CD's cost > > between $3 and $6 to make. The process of making a CD is infinitely more [ stuff deleted ] > Sorry...CD's DO NOT cost between $3-6 to make...this is something the record [ stuff about cost of CD's deleted ] > Anyone care to guess what a press run of 100,000 would cost per disk? Less > than $1 I bet. Yep, I remember reading in 'MIX MAGAZINE', a magazine about high-end audio mix down equipment and techniques, that the average cost for making a CD was about $1.27. Now I'm sure that it would be more for a small record label that only makes a few thousand or so, but yes, I can go out and have 1000 CDs made for about $3 a piece (and I have!). I would imagine that to put data on a CD would cost about the same. -= Steve =- -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- LIVE: Steve Hall (617)969-0050 | Disclaimer: If ARPA: adelie!morgoth!steve@harvard.HARVARD.EDU | confronted, I'll deny UUCP: {harvard|ll-xn|mirror|axiom}!adelie!morgoth!steve | I ever said anything.
rtczegledi@crocus.waterloo.edu (Richard Czegledi) (08/12/89)
While I do find that there is a lot of amiga piracy, other computers --> ARE <-- worse off. There was a local board that was up, since moved or something, that ran off of an atari st. This board was a dedicated pirating board, with gobs and gobs of storage, a 9600 baud modem, and was a member of an international atari-st pirating organization (st-bandits or something like that). A whole bbs! Supported IBM too! these people got files well before they came out in the stores --- CRACKED! With manuals and everything! This was a heavy duty organization, and to date, I have never even heard of such establishments for the amiga. While they probably do exist, this setup claimed to have nodes in toronto, and nodes in most major cities all over the planet. The FBI/mounties :-) would have a field day! Personaly, I observe that most people obtain bootleg copies of software every now and then. It's wrong, of course, but what can they do? As for me, I've got some software I'm not using (all 'ORIGINAL' with packaging etc...). Here's the list: StarGlider $10 Ultima IV $35 DMCS $10 (no manual. stolen, w/box/disk) DigiPaint $15 Reason $40 SA3D $65 (full sculpt animate 3D) DPaint II $25 Marble Madness $10 Animation Stand $10 Balance of Power 1990 edition: $30 Barbarian $10 Call Via PhoneNet: (519)578-8525 .. ask for Paul N'EmailMe pas s'il vous plait. Even flames on my lack of french knowledge :-)
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (08/12/89)
<925@corpane.UUCP> <4639@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> Sender: Reply-To: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc. Keywords: In article <4639@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes: >> [my inflated figures for software sales on Amy] >You must be the man that fell to earth! If you really believe what you >are saying you should be selling your own program. There are several >flaws in your above posting. > > 1) 1,000,000 Amigas sold doesn't mean 1,000,000 being used. Well, maybe not. but a pretty big margin. Why else would you buy it? > 2) Selling to 10% of the market is almost unheard of, except > for a very few programs like Deluxe Paint. Most software > companies are singing in the streets if they can sell to > 1% of the market. Hmm. I guess I really over-inflated my estimates. > 3) A list price of $50 dollars means that the producer of > the software gets only $20 from software distributors, that > is if you can still find one that is still in business. > 4) A nice box, manual, disk, and shipping runs an easy $8. Yep I also forgot to include production costs. Ooops. > 5) Pirates kill a large amount of impulse buying, which can > easily amount to 80% of your sells. I know this because > less than 20% of the sells every bother to send in registration > cards. In other words "impulse buying" == "suckers who buy anything in a pretty package", if only 20% ever bother registering, then that is a good sign that the program is not worth the cost, and the maker better get on the ball and come out with a good program or face the facts of lowered sales as word of mouth travels about the crappy program. > >So the cash equation is more like: > > 900,000 * (.01) / 2 * $12 = $54,000 > >Even that may require heavy advertising at about $5,000 a mouth for >say 6 months, costing $30,000 total. Leaving about $24,000 to split >between everyone involved in producing the software. > >Now the numbers can move some, but the essence is that your $3,500,000 >is off by an order of magitude. Sorry about the cold water, but is >very hard to make a living writing Amiga software. > > Wayne Knapp Well sorry for the wrong figures above, But Karl's seemed way to low. He was going on an installed based of 50,000 which I know there are more Amiga's out there than that. I didn't realize how unprofitable writing software could be. It's a wonder we have any programs for the Amy at all. -- John Sparks | {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps ||||||||||||||| sparks@corpane.UUCP | 502/968-5401 thru -5406 Cheerio-Magnetics: The tendency of the last few cheerios in a bowl of milk to cling together for survival.
phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti) (08/13/89)
In article <514@morgoth.UUCP> steve@morgoth.UUCP (Steve Hall) writes: >...I can go out and have 1000 CDs made >for about $3 a piece (and I have!). I would imagine that to put data on a CD >would cost about the same. From what I understand (I read this somewhere...) storing digital sound is actually a lot cheaper for one major reason: if you have a minor glitch in a sound CD - as you do in lots of CDs - it doesn't matter, because the resulting sound difference is so small as to be inaudible. However, you can imagine what a bad byte or three would do in an executable, or even a text file. These errors can be prevented and/or stripped out, but it brings your cost per CD up a lot (I don't know how much). - R'ykandar. -- | "Signature V1.2.1.2..." | phoenix@ms.uky.edu | phoenix@ukma.bitnet | | "Got enough addresses, bub?" | CIS 72406,370 | PLink: Skywise | | "Alms! Alms! Laser printers for the poor!" | QLink: Bearclaw |
fetrow@bones.stat.washington.edu (Dave Fetrow) (08/14/89)
In article <12406@s.ms.uky.edu> phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti) writes: >if you have a minor glitch >in a sound CD - as you do in lots of CDs - it doesn't matter, because the >resulting sound difference is so small as to be inaudible. However, you can >imagine what a bad byte or three would do in an executable...... CD ROMs incorporate Error Correction Codes. A few mangled bits can be reconstructed on the fly. If they didn't have ECC's they wouldn't have nearly as many advantages over conventional media as they do. ECC's are pretty old hat actually. They are common in the large mini and mainframe world where a fried byte of memory could mean shuting down a multimillion-dollar installation. -dave fetrow- fetrow@bones.biostat.washington.edu dfetrow@uwalocke (bitnet) {uunet}!uw-beaver!uw-entropy!fetrow "Whom the gods would destroy, they first teach Teco"
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (08/15/89)
>> 5) Pirates kill a large amount of impulse buying, which can >> easily amount to 80% of your sells. I know this because >> less than 20% of the sells every bother to send in registration >> cards. > >In other words "impulse buying" == "suckers who buy anything in a pretty >package", if only 20% ever bother registering, then that is a good sign that >the program is not worth the cost, and the maker better get on the ball and >come out with a good program or face the facts of lowered sales as word of >mouth travels about the crappy program. > This is simply not true. Many people buy good useful programs and use then only once or twice then self them. Of coarse it is much more true for games and real productive software but it still seems to be the norm. Also it seems that many people don't even bother to register there hardware let alone their software. According to a Commodore rep out here only 2000 Amigas were registered the second quarter this year in North America. I sure hope the Amiga sells are better than this. Anyway, my point is that impulse buying in not really bad. Many great products are sold this way. How many people buy a paint program like Deluxe Paint to only use it a few times, or a program like SA3D to only raytrace a few pictures. Are these bad products, no! However, I'm willing to bet that impulse buying plays a big part in many of their sales. The problem is that if pirated copies of the program abound, then these light users who are still valid sales sometimes use the programs and never pay for it because they reason, well I don't use it that much so why buy it. I have inside information on the sales of 9 different Amiga programs. From where I stand it looks like copy- protecting my programs doubles my sales! So what choice do I have? Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "impulse buying" since it seems to be to mis-understood. Insteat let coin the term "light sales", that is sales to casual or one-time users. As a programmer, I still want to be paid for these light sales! Maybe I'd feel different if the Amiga market was much bigger, but I doult it. I hope this clears the air some. Wayne Knapp P.S. When you are getting as high as 20% registering on a programs that costs only around a $100, it is a sign that you have a great program! I seen super programs that don't do nearly as well. (Stuff that I worked on at Montana State Univ. a few years ago).
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/15/89)
In article <514@morgoth.UUCP> steve@morgoth.UUCP (Steve Hall) writes: >... I would imagine that to put data on a CD would cost about the same. > -= Steve =- It used to be the reason CD-ROMs were so expensive compared to audio disks, was that the mastering process was a lot tougher. On an audio disk you just record a bunch of stuff to tape, and then dump the tape to a master, and poof ready to roll CD disks. But for data disks you have to set up the data, index it in some way. This requires that you have access to all of it, and be able to change it, and that means a 500Mb magnetic disk that could "pretend" it was a CD until you were ready to master it. With current SCSI technology you can do this for under $3K, it used to be you needed a mini like a Sun or VAX to just handle the data. Of course once you get all the data together the indexing process can be slow at best. For hypertext like applications you want to make sure related information is on physically "near" tracks and the index stuff has to be pretty well filled in to make the disk useful. Unfortunately, this is neither a simple problem, nor does the average human being deal with 500MB of information well. Based on playing with these things I personally believe the *total* capacity of a single persons brain is about 1GB, and we use a lot of compression techniques (like algorithmic recreation of data) to make stuff fit. Anyway, tools are needed today to help with this indexing process. Some things like encyclopedias already have a hundred thousand man hours of indexing effort expended so can be transferred fairly cheaply, as do things like the OED. But other stuff, like everything you wanted to know about Sailing, or Chemistry haven't had the extensive work and are thus 5 year projects using the current tools. (Based to the estimate Time-Life uses to create a "new" encyclopedia series). So while the mastering/duplication cost might be 1.50 a pop for 1,000 you have to pay 10 people for a year to index the darn thing and that's gonna cost at least $500,000. Anyway, if you or anyone else can come up with some good tools you could sell them for $50,000 a copy and the people like Time-Life would buy them without even blinking an eye. Big market for some dedicated entrepreneur... --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"
don@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Donald R Lloyd) (08/15/89)
So amidst all this talk of piracy and CD's did anybody ever establish whether or not Cinemaware is pulling out of the amiga world? (<-no pun intended) I was under the impression that Ami was their development platform of choice... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | --------------- Don Lloyd El Campeador don@vax1.acs.udel.edu | | |Gibberish is | DISCLAIMER: don@pyr1.acs.udel.edu | | |spoken here. | My employers are idiots. They wouldn't understand | | --------------- my babbling even if they WERE literate enough to read it. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
root@crash.cts.com (Super user) (08/15/89)
Network Comment: to #1818 by sneakers@heimat.UUCP
Dan says we should post the numbers of such pirate boards. Well, I have a
duzey for you. Seems there is one right in my area called "The Link to
Perfection" and it hosts the crackings of a well-known cracker (group or
individual, I don't know) Quartex. It's unbelievable the items that have been
cracked and distributed by these people. If you want to call the phone number
is 201/679-8477. Don't expect to get access though. You can only get access
by referral. This board carries only the NEWEST stuff. I mean stuff that has
only been cracked for 2 days or less!
I don't have access myself, but I do know of a few people who do. Who knows,
if you can BS real good, maybe you can get access and see what this piracy
deal is all about yourself!
-- Bob
_________________________ Pro-Graphics 201/469-0049 __________________________
UUCP: crash!pro-graphics!bobl | ProLine: bobl@pro-graphics
InterNet: crash!bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com | CServe: 70347,2344
ARPA/DDN: crash!pro-graphics!bobl@nosc.mil | AppleLink: Graphics3D
___________ ____________
Raven Enterprises - 25 Raven Ave. Piscataway, NJ 08854sneakers@heimat.UUCP (Dan "Sneakers" Schein) (10/15/90)
In Message <1989Jul24.163632.23920@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >I was at a SF convention a couple of months ago. They had a "computer room", >as some of them do. Inside were three or four Amigas. > >Also inside were some THOUSAND 3.5" diskettes, with every program ever >conceived for the Amiga on them. And among them was not ONE original disk. >NOT ONE. > >Every game, every application; they were all there. Star Wars. F18 >Interceptor. Hacker. Strip Poker. Deluxe Paint II. Etc. All there. >Every one loaded with a "cracked by byte bandit" or somesuch hi-res screen >instead of the normal boot loader -- then the game would load normally. >EVERY SINGLE ONE. EACH ONE was copyable, and the people in the room didn't >seem to care much what you did with the disks (ie: if you had a few blanks >you could have taken nearly everything you wanted). WOW! What convention was this im sure alot of developers would like to attend it next time ;-) Sneakers -- ___ Dan "Sneakers" Schein //// BERKS AMIGA BBS Sneakers Computing //// 80+ Megs of software & messages 2455 McKinley Ave. ___ //// 12/2400 Baud - 24 Hrs West Lawn, PA 19609 \\\\ //// 215/678-7691 \\\\//// {pyramid|rutgers|uunet}!cbmvax!heimat!sneakers