es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/16/90)
I post this for the sake of interested 3rd parties who might otherwise believe the Mac Barrett price post. My information comes from my own school's prices. It is also a correction to a few numbers in my prior post. In article <33538@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > > The new MAC LC (actually, it should be called the MAC IILC, because >the only difference between this system and the original MAC II is >the lack of a FPU) gives you a 68020 running at 20Mhz, 2M of RAM, a 40MB >hard drive, color video, and keyboard for $2500 list. I will build >a similar Amiga system using an Amiga 500 as the base. Add $300 for >the monitor, which is included in the Amiga system I will compare it >against. To be fair, I will use list prices. Marc, the Mac price you quote repeatedly does NOT include a monitor. Apple monitors are NOT cheap. Taking education prices: MAC LC Amiga 3000/16-50 16MHz 68020 16MHz 68030 no math coprocessor 16MHz 68881 40MB drive 50MB drive 2MB ram 2MB ram Color video Color video Apple monitor Multisync monitor keyboard, etc. keyboard, etc. ?? option for 68040 accelerator/cache ?? video slot ?? 4 slots ?? 16MHz/32bit bus $2,500 $2,600 (educational) (educational) Building from an A500 system is stupid, especially because the expansion is so much more expensive than on 2000s/3000 that the extra cost for the 2000/3000 is mad up. You can clearly see that the A3000 is far better than an expanded A500! Clearly the Amiga is not behind. The A3000 listed above is a much more powerful system than the LC and the difference is only $100. Another thing to be considered: Apple is probably using up its old stock of 68020 for their discontinued Mac II. Motorola will likely end production of the 68020 soon as the price difference with the 68030 is very small. Marc, sometimes you talk and make sense and other times you just complete get caught up in emotions and don't even stop to think. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 11;
BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct16.015911.3837@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Ethan Solomita <es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu> writes: >In article <33538@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >> >> The new MAC LC (actually, it should be called the MAC IILC, because >>the only difference between this system and the original MAC II is >>the lack of a FPU) gives you a 68020 running at 20Mhz, 2M of RAM, a 40MB >>hard drive, color video, and keyboard for $2500 list. I will build >>a similar Amiga system using an Amiga 500 as the base. Add $300 for >>the monitor, which is included in the Amiga system I will compare it >>against. To be fair, I will use list prices. > > Marc, the Mac price you quote repeatedly does NOT include >a monitor. Apple monitors are NOT cheap. Taking education prices: > MAC LC Amiga 3000/16-50 > 16MHz 68020 16MHz 68030 > no math coprocessor 16MHz 68881 > 40MB drive 50MB drive > 2MB ram 2MB ram > Color video Color video > Apple monitor Multisync monitor > keyboard, etc. keyboard, etc. > ?? option for 68040 > accelerator/cache > ?? video slot > ?? 4 slots > ?? 16MHz/32bit bus > > $2,500 $2,600 > (educational) (educational) I dispute the prices you gave for the above systems. The education price for the MAC LC itself is $1750, and the education price of the AppleColor monitor is at most $500. You also have to add $150 to the A3000 system for an ArcNET card, because the MAC has built-in networking. Tallied up, this brings the MAC LC to $2250, and the A3000 to $2750. A big enough difference that many educational institutions would rather go with the MAC LC system. Here is a further reason why many will go with the MAC system. It just plain looks great. What people see first in any system is not the speed of the SCSI controller or whether or not it has a FPU. What people notice first is the quality of the display, and the A3000 cannot touch the MAC in this area. On the systems at school, a new Finder has been installed that uses 256-color icons. The resulting display looks vastly better than AmigaOS2.0 ever will, with it's 4-color WB. BTW, what are you going to run on that A3000 system, besides games and multimedia software? There is nothing available for the Amiga in the line of engineering, scientific, and education software. > > Building from an A500 system is stupid, especially >because the expansion is so much more expensive than on >2000s/3000 that the extra cost for the 2000/3000 is mad up. You >can clearly see that the A3000 is far better than an expanded >A500! Clearly the Amiga is not behind. The A3000 listed above is >a much more powerful system than the LC and the difference is >only $100. The A500 is Commodore's lowest-cost system, and I wanted to show that even the A500 cannot stack up against the new MACs in price and performance. > Another thing to be considered: Apple is probably using >up its old stock of 68020 for their discontinued Mac II. Motorola >will likely end production of the 68020 soon as the price >difference with the 68030 is very small. I doubt that Motorola will stop production of the 68020 soon. Remember that plenty of places are still producing the 6502. The 68020 still has plenty of uses, particularly as a 32-bit CPU in places (such as controllers and such) that only need a wide memory map and don't need virtual memory or the other benefits of a 68030. > > Marc, sometimes you talk and make sense and other times >you just complete get caught up in emotions and don't even stop >to think. > -- Ethan > >Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu > >GorbachevAwards++; >free (SovietUnion); >IndependentRepublics += 11; -MB-
rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (10/16/90)
In article <33618@nigel.ee.udel.edu> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > >In article <1990Oct16.015911.3837@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Ethan Solomita ><es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu> writes: > >>In article <33538@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > > I dispute the prices you gave for the above systems. The education >price for the MAC LC itself is $1750, and the education price of the >AppleColor monitor is at most $500. You also have to add $150 to >the A3000 system for an ArcNET card, because the MAC has built-in >networking. Tallied up, this brings the MAC LC to $2250, and the >A3000 to $2750. A big enough difference that many educational >institutions would rather go with the MAC LC system. > > Here is a further reason why many will go with the MAC system. It >just plain looks great. What people see first in any system is not >the speed of the SCSI controller or whether or not it has a FPU. What >people notice first is the quality of the display, and the A3000 cannot >touch the MAC in this area. On the systems at school, a new Finder >has been installed that uses 256-color icons. The resulting display >looks vastly better than AmigaOS2.0 ever will, with it's 4-color >WB. Marc, your hang up is on color. And thats your mistake. How come so many institutions buy Ibms (monochrome) or Unixes (w/o X)? You like color! But NOT everyone has your same tastes. 256 color Icons are such a waste of disk space, and memory bandwidth I don't see a use for them. As it is now, I have workbench screen in 2 color mode (using a program to cut out the other plane) I have never seen anyone who uses a 16color WB, or stuff like DropShadow, Simgen. First off, you take a big performance hit, second. Its ANNOYING. Color is a novelty, sure when you first get it, your all excited, and waste time downloadings tons of pictures and demos, but after awhile it wears off. Couple with the Fact that the LC is only a 68020, 256 color processing will be SLOW, probably as slow as my A500. Just remember, that not every cares to have digitized 16million color icons that take up the whole screen and bring your computer speed down to a turtle. the LC and SI are crippled, they only have 1 expansion slow. > BTW, what are you going to run on that A3000 system, besides games >and multimedia software? There is nothing available for the Amiga in >the line of engineering, scientific, and education software. This is the real problem. It has nothing to do with the hardware. But the Amiga has its market, (Multimedia) and the Mac has its (Science). Of course, when the A3000 UX is release, this will be irrelevant, but i'd rather have Unix for software, then a Mac. >> >> Building from an A500 system is stupid, especially >>because the expansion is so much more expensive than on >>2000s/3000 that the extra cost for the 2000/3000 is mad up. You >>can clearly see that the A3000 is far better than an expanded >>A500! Clearly the Amiga is not behind. The A3000 listed above is >>a much more powerful system than the LC and the difference is >>only $100. > > The A500 is Commodore's lowest-cost system, and I wanted to show that >even the A500 cannot stack up against the new MACs in price and performance. This is irrelevant. Try comparing the A500 against the Classic. The LC and SI are more integrated, so try using a more integrated machine as a base. (A2000/3000). Sheesh, why don't you just build a Vic 20 up to a Cray? The A500 can stack up to a Classic, and the A3000-16 can stack up to an LC. > > -MB- -- "NeXTs are useless... Mac's are irrelevent.. IBM's are futile. Amiga's,however, are quite nice!" -Capt Jeal-Luc Amiga | Flames to /dev/null Ray Cromwell rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu | // AMIGA! \\ "Your software will adapt to service ours!"| \X/ AMIGA! \X/
pab@po.CWRU.Edu (Pete Babic) (10/17/90)
In a previous article, BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) says: > > Here is a further reason why many will go with the MAC system. It >just plain looks great. What people see first in any system is not >the speed of the SCSI controller or whether or not it has a FPU. What >people notice first is the quality of the display, and the A3000 cannot >touch the MAC in this area. On the systems at school, a new Finder >has been installed that uses 256-color icons. The resulting display >looks vastly better than AmigaOS2.0 ever will, with it's 4-color >WB. How can you fit 256 colors in an icon? That's stupidity and a waste of memory. > BTW, what are you going to run on that A3000 system, besides games >and multimedia software? There is nothing available for the Amiga in >the line of engineering, scientific, and education software. > What do you run on your Amiga Marc? Or do you even have one? Maybe your a secret weapon straight from Apple Marketing :-). > > The A500 is Commodore's lowest-cost system, and I wanted to show that >even the A500 cannot stack up against the new MACs in price and performance. > Compare the A500 to the Mac Classic and it stacks up well >> Marc, sometimes you talk and make sense and other times >>you just complete get caught up in emotions and don't even stop >>to think. >> -- Ethan >> >>Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu >> >>GorbachevAwards++; >>free (SovietUnion); >>IndependentRepublics += 11; > > > -MB- > -- /// Pete Babic - pab@po.cwru.edu | /// /\ Integrated Library Systems | \\\ /// /--\MIGA Case Western Reserve University | \\\/// The future is here now!
torrie@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Evan James Torrie) (10/17/90)
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > I post this for the sake of interested 3rd parties who >might otherwise believe the Mac Barrett price post. My >information comes from my own school's prices. It is also a >correction to a few numbers in my prior post. Here are some prices from my school... > Marc, the Mac price you quote repeatedly does NOT include >a monitor. Apple monitors are NOT cheap. Taking education prices: > MAC LC Amiga 3000/16-50 > 16MHz 68020 16MHz 68030 > no math coprocessor 16MHz 68881 > 40MB drive 50MB drive > 2MB ram 2MB ram > Color video Color video > Apple monitor Multisync monitor > keyboard, etc. keyboard, etc. microphone ?? > ?? option for 68040 > accelerator/cache > ?? video slot > ?? 4 slots 1 slot > ?? 16MHz/32bit bus 16 MHz/32 bit 020 direct slot > $2,500 $2,600 > (educational) (educational) Stanford charges $1517 for the LC 2/40, $378 for the 12" RGB monitor (the 13" 640 x 480 monitor is around $650 though. You only get 512 x 342 with the 12" monitor in 256 colours from 16 million) $1,895 (approx $2,195 for 640 x 480) (educational) >Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu Clearly, the Amiga 3000 is a better machine hardware wise, but whether that will make any difference to the kind of students who are buying a $2000 computer is something that remains to be seen. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "The All Blacks? Who are they? - some plebian
barrett@meridn.enet.dec.com (Keith Barrett) (10/17/90)
I'm getting tired of hearing from Marc Barrett - why does this guy "waste" his time on the Amiga conference when he obviously doesn't do more than put the system down? His post is so full of errors I'm not going to even waste my time addressing them. If "Apple Computer" themselves state that they will never promote a low-cost MAC because they feel that it's a "toy" market, why is he trying to convince us that it's already lower than the Amiga? For one thing, I can spend a VERY small amount of money and obtain a fully functional Amiga with dedicated processor sound, graphics, color, etc. THEN add on (when I can afford it) to include the accelerator board, printer,com board, etc that the MAC comes with - and still stay 99.9% compatible with all my previous software and other amigas AND have a better system than the MAC. Even using his figures and accepting that the prices are close -- I CAN BUILD TO THAT CONFIG while the MAC user is stuck dropping big $$$ initally. And as far as being initially impressive - I can't count the number of "ooooo's" I've gotten when demoing standard software and CAD rendering and stated the cost. Never mind the IBM Bridgeboard ability. I noticed that you DIDN'T state what the Mac system was missing that the Amiga came with (speech synthesis, 4096 colors, better sound, CLI, etc). The bottom line is that the systems each serve a purpose. You sound like you are just trying to justify your own preference for a MAC to everyone. Do it elsewhere. It's enough to make me want to change my name Keith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rwm@atronx.UUCP (Russell McOrmond) (10/17/90)
In a message posted on 16 Oct 90 18:40:52 GMT,
torrie@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Evan James Torrie) wrote:
EJT>es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
EJT> Stanford charges $1517 for the LC 2/40, $378 for the 12" RGB monitor (the
EJT> Clearly, the Amiga 3000 is a better machine hardware wise, but whether that
EJT>will make any difference to the kind of students who are buying a $2000
EJT>computer is something that remains to be seen.
All this is 'again' proving is that Commodore needs to set up an Advertised
educational Discount program for post-secondary institutions, and also
seriously look into what would be required to have the Amiga sold out of the
School Computer Stores. While the Dealer network might 'seem' like a good idea
to Commodore, a lot of students do not go to a dealer to buy a computer, they
go straight to the University Computer store. And what do they see? IBM Clones,
and MAC systems. They're never even given a chance to make an educated choice.
(P.S. I work for a Dealership in Ottawa, and there are two universities
here - I STILL wish the Amiga were sold out of the universities - It would add
to the number of Amiga Users, which would always help those dealerships that
deal with 'After Sales Support' such as Education, Service, Peripherals/etc/etc
- IE: I heard at one time that some of the dealers were part of the reason
that the Universities were not looked into. I think any of the dealerships
that were worried were just ones that were not GOOD enough to support the
machine right. I the original BOX is the only thing you're able to sell, then
tough )
---
Opinions expressed in this message are my Own. My Employer does not even
know what these networks ARE.
Russell McOrmond rwm@atronx.UUCP {fts1,alzabo}!atronx!rwm
FidoNet 1:163/109 Net Support: (613) 230-2282
Amiga-Fidonet Support 1:1/109ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) (10/18/90)
rwm@atronx.UUCP (Russell McOrmond) writes: >All this is 'again' proving is that Commodore needs to set up an Advertised >educational Discount program for post-secondary institutions, and also >seriously look into what would be required to have the Amiga sold out of the >School Computer Stores. While the Dealer network might 'seem' like a good idea >to Commodore, a lot of students do not go to a dealer to buy a computer, they >go straight to the University Computer store. And what do they see? IBM Clones, >and MAC systems. They're never even given a chance to make an educated choice. Another problem is the one I've encountered. We want to buy an Amiga for our research group. We started the process the second week in September. Not only do we not have our Amiga, the paperwork is still being processed by the university! Even worse, the local dealer who we have to go through has had his telephone disconnected! If we can ever get in touch with the dealer (who I understand IS still in business), it's another 4 weeks (according to C= service rep) for the machine to get to the dealer after that. This is all too much. I was on the verge of cancelling the order this morning, but since I lobbied so hard for the Amiga, I didn't (yet!). At the same time we ordered some Mac equipment. We've been happily using it since a few days after we put in the order (I'm writing this on a Mac). The school had the Mac equipment in stock on campus and if it hadn't been for the delays of office paperwork and the department inventory stickers we could have had it the same day I think. FYI, this is at the Univ. of Illinois (36,000 students and one Amiga dealer nowhere near campus (but in the same city, so I guess we should feel lucky). Now if only they had a phone... Thoroughly frustrated, Richard Gerber gerber@rigel.astro.uiuc.edu
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) (10/18/90)
|What do you run on your Amiga Marc? Or do you even have one? Maybe your a |secret weapon straight from Apple Marketing :-). |Pete Babic - pab@po.cwru.edu If -MB- is a secret weapon from Apple, they'd better check and see which way the barrel's pointing before they pull the trigger. (I've seen those 256-color icons, or however many colors are actually in there. I didn't stop and count them. Eh. Looks spiffy, but it's a total waste of system resources. Then again, what do I know- last time someone tried loadwb on my machine, it crashed.) dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/18/90)
In article <1990Oct17.175803.19261@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) writes: >Another problem is the one I've encountered. We want to buy an Amiga >for our research group. We started the process the second week in >September. Not only do we not have our Amiga, the paperwork is still >being processed by the university! Even worse, the local dealer who we >have to go through has had his telephone disconnected! If we can ever >get in touch with the dealer (who I understand IS still in business), it's >another 4 weeks (according to C= service rep) for the machine to get >to the dealer after that. This is all too much. I was on the verge of >cancelling the order this morning, but since I lobbied so hard for the >Amiga, I didn't (yet!). It sounds like you are getting the run around locally (i.e. the university or the dealer). I know someone at Columbia who got his Amiga 3000 3 days after he ordered it. I ordered mine about five days before they showed up in the store for reglar orders. It took two weeks. As a conflict with you Mac story, here are Columbia students can wait months for their Macs, especially because of the discontinuing of the Plus and SE. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
d87-khd@sm.luth.se (Karl-Gunnar Hultland) (10/18/90)
In a previous article, BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) says: > > Here is a further reason why many will go with the MAC system. It >just plain looks great. What people see first in any system is not >the speed of the SCSI controller or whether or not it has a FPU. What >people notice first is the quality of the display, and the A3000 cannot >touch the MAC in this area. On the systems at school, a new Finder >has been installed that uses 256-color icons. The resulting display >looks vastly better than AmigaOS2.0 ever will, with it's 4-color >WB. How strange... How very strange!!! I could have sworn I was running 2.0 on my 3000... Four !?! colors... I'll have to count them again... 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.13.14.15.16 Well thats not 4 for sure... Lets check the version number... 36.143 Well I guess he must be wrong again :-) -- // // // \\ // // \\ // \\ // Karl Hultland,(d87-khd@sm.luth.se) \X/ \X/ \X/ University of Lulea,Sweden 500 2000 3000 I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term of Natural Selection. /C. Darwin
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (10/19/90)
In article <33618@nigel.ee.udel.edu> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > I doubt that Motorola will stop production of the 68020 soon. Remember >that plenty of places are still producing the 6502. The 68020 still has >plenty of uses, particularly as a 32-bit CPU in places (such as controllers >and such) that only need a wide memory map and don't need virtual memory >or the other benefits of a 68030. Surprise! Motorola recently announced the "68EC030", a 68030 minus the on-chip MMU and FPU interface. "EC", "Embedded Controller", get it? They also plan to introduce a 68040 version sans MMU (though the blurb I read wasn't clear whether the on-chip floating-point would be dropped as well). Looks like another coffin nail for the '020 to me. -- "I feel lightheaded, Sam. I think my | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com brain is out of air. But it's kind of | The Apollo Systems Division of a neat feeling..." -- Freelance Police | Hewlett-Packard