ali@rocky.UUCP (03/03/87)
[]
Well, the new Macs were announced today...
Macintosh II, $5500, comes with SIX slots, OPTIONAL with color boards,
OPTIONAL networking capability, OPTIONAL MS-DOS compatibility,
and Unix System V port end of summer. (I thought for $40000 you were
going to get COLOR. Well rumors do lie.)
Macintosh SE, Price ?, comes with ONE slot and hard disk.
Oh well, neither fits what I consider will be my next computer:
1. Powerful enough to emulate an Amiga 1000 in real time
2. Offers something more than the Amiga 1000
3. Is multitasking
4. Costs <$2000.
5. Wins my heart
What computer fulfills all of the above points? Well, the A2000 of course.
Looks like my next computer will be an Amiga 2000!
(Of course, I never doubted that. In fact, I don't think Apple could
ever fulfill point 5 above. Commodore always has, with the 4k Pet,
the C64, and the Amiga. (So I am biased, ok!))
Ali Ozer, ali@rocky.stanford.edu OR ali@score.stanford.edu
I finally have another path: ...!decwrl!rocky.stanford.edu!aliali@rocky.UUCP (03/03/87)
In article <148@rocky.STANFORD.EDU> I (the silly me) wrote: > and Unix System V port end of summer. (I thought for $40000 you were ^^^^^ Oops, one extra zero here... Also I should point out that the views expressed in my prev message are not those of Stanford University. Unfortunately. But I'm working on it. Ali Ozer
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU.UUCP (03/04/87)
The new Mac's look nice, if a bit overpriced. But since they don't support full multi-tasking, Apple's *Bang* Sounds more like a feeble *pop*. Frankly, I don't see the use of having a machine with the capacity for MegaBytes of RAM if it can only run one application at a time (you can only do so much with desk accessories). -Matt
mwm@eris.UUCP (03/04/87)
In article <148@rocky.STANFORD.EDU> ali@rocky.ARPA (Ali Ozer) writes: >Macintosh II, $5500, comes with SIX slots, OPTIONAL with color boards, > OPTIONAL networking capability, OPTIONAL MS-DOS compatibility, > and Unix System V port end of summer. (I thought for $40000 you were > going to get COLOR. Well rumors do lie.) We got the consortium price (didn't Stanford?): $3k, $4k with hd, but you still have to buy a monitor and keyboard. Two advantages over a turbo amiga: builtin scuzzy, and 16MHz 68020 instead of 14+. Max memory is 8.5Meg (sound familiar?). First color option gets you 16 out of 16Meg of colors; extended version gets you 256 out of the same No HAM mentioned. > >Macintosh SE, Price ?, comes with ONE slot and hard disk. The consortium price is $180 ($2300 with hd). Note that the SE has some magic mac-bus, but the Mac ][ has a Nu-Bus Isn't comptability a wonderful thing? Unless you really nead that big pallet on the ][, or want to run their SysV/Finder/4BSD hybrid, the A2000 looks like a better machine (at a better price) than either of the new Macs. Nuts, the A1000 looks like better machine. I expect them to sell a lot of New Macs, anyway. <mike But I'll survive, no you won't catch me, Mike Meyer I'll resist the urge that is tempting me, ucbvax!mwm I'll avert my eyes, keep you off my knee, mwm@berkeley.edu But it feels so good when you talk to me. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
mwm@eris.UUCP (03/04/87)
In article <2673@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> mwm@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Mike (No one lives forever.) Meyer) writes: >>Macintosh SE, Price ?, comes with ONE slot and hard disk. > >The consortium price is $180 ($2300 with hd). Note that the SE has Sigh. Here's where ali's extra 0 came from. Price is $1800, not $180. <mike But I'll survive, no you won't catch me, Mike Meyer I'll resist the urge that is tempting me, ucbvax!mwm I'll avert my eyes, keep you off my knee, mwm@berkeley.edu But it feels so good when you talk to me. mwm@ucbjade.BITNET
cb29#@andrew.cmu.edu.UUCP (03/04/87)
Mike - How can you say the Amiga 1000 (or even the 2000) is a better machine?!? The Mac II moves almost 4 times as fast! They can put a software coded, multi-tasking op-system in there and it'll still run 2 to 3 times as fast. Oh when is the A3000 going to come out with a real 68020? -- Chad Who needs an address anyway (-:
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU.UUCP (03/05/87)
>Mike - > > How can you say the Amiga 1000 (or even the 2000) is a better >machine?!? >The Mac II moves almost 4 times as fast! They can put a software coded, >multi-tasking op-system in there and it'll still run 2 to 3 times as fast. > > Oh when is the A3000 going to come out with a real 68020? > > -- Chad > >Who needs an address anyway (-: From what I hear, the Mac II is 4 times faster than the Mac+. The Mac+ is about half as fast as the Amiga due to video refresh. Thus, the Mac II is only twice as fast as a vanila Amiga. Since 68020's are available for the standard Amiga 1000, and I note here that an Amiga system with a 68020 board + Megs of Ram STILL would cost *much* LESS than a Mac II, such an Amiga would run at least on par with the Mac II in terms of processor speed. They can put a software coded multi-tasking system in there all right... If they redesign the operating system. -Matt
nick@utcsscb.UUCP (03/06/87)
In article <8703032126.AA15825@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU.UUCP writes: > > The new Mac's look nice, if a bit overpriced. But since they don't >support full multi-tasking, Apple's *Bang* Sounds more like a feeble *pop*. >Frankly, I don't see the use of having a machine with the capacity for >MegaBytes of RAM if it can only run one application at a time (you can only >do so much with desk accessories). > > -Matt I always thought that Unix offered full multitasking. Admittly that is not the primary OS coming with the machine anybody putting the full 8megs of ram onto the motherboard or even going all the way to 2gigabytes of memory will want Unix. Nick
daveh@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (03/06/87)
> Mike - > > How can you say the Amiga 1000 (or even the 2000) is a better > machine?!? > The Mac II moves almost 4 times as fast! They can put a software coded, > multi-tasking op-system in there and it'll still run 2 to 3 times as fast. > > Oh when is the A3000 going to come out with a real 68020? > > -- Chad Better is a relative term -- a Mac II _might_ very well be 4 times faster, but its probably also 4-6 times more expensive. And its not out yet, so I certainly can't tell you if its that much better than an A1000 or A2000 (and you can tell from my signature that I'd be totally unbiased in my evaluation, had I a Mac II on my desk now). As is, my Amiga 1000 at home or Amiga 2000 at work can do work faster overall than any currently existing MacIntosh. And I could get up early tomorrow (yea, right), call CSA, and order a 68020 board and some mighty-fast 32 bit memory. Now, today, with a year-1/2 old A1000, or a real cheap A500 even. And the A1000's OS, as is, will work just dandy with that 68020, maybe 4 times faster, with its currently existing multitasking, real time, message passing, etc. OS. Meanwhile, you're waiting for a Mac II, which you probably can't get 'till the summer, which will cost you much more, and will still only do one thing at a time (certainly fast) until you fork out additional geeters for UNIX or some similar OS. And then you still won't be real-time and message passing, so the Amiga concept of small, fast tasks (that, really, can hurt each other if you let them) passes you by. I'm sure the Mac II will do well, especially with UNIX, as a replacement for something like a Sun-2 or Sun-3 (heck, a stock Mac or Amiga isn't much slower, CPU-wise, than a Sun-2). And the A2000 will do well too. Or I'm gonna break some bones! :-) -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __ ____ ____ _____ _____ _____ Dave Haynie /// / _ | / __ \ / _ \ / _ \ / _ \ Commodore Technology /// / / | | /_/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |\ /// / /__| | ____/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | |\\/// / ____ | / ____/ | | | | | | | | | | | | \\// / / | | | |____ | |_| | | |_| | | |_| | {ihnp4,etc.}!cbmvax!daveh \/ /_/ |_| \______| \_____/ \_____/ \_____/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
billd@crash.CTS.COM (Bill D'Camp) (03/07/87)
In article <MS.V3.18.cb29.80021115.gettysburg.ibm032.131.0@andrew.cmu.edu> cb29#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chad Kavanaugh Bisk) writes: >Mike - > > How can you say the Amiga 1000 (or even the 2000) is a better >machine?!? >The Mac II moves almost 4 times as fast! They can put a software coded, >multi-tasking op-system in there and it'll still run 2 to 3 times as fast. > > Oh when is the A3000 going to come out with a real 68020? > > -- Chad Yeah, and only pay four times as much, the bare bones Mac II is supposed to start at $4800 without monitor or hard disk. What a bargain! I hope this doesn't start a "my currently nonexistent machine is better than your currently nonexistent machine" war. -- _ /| \`o_O' ( ) Aachk! Phft! U (serious self-portrait?) Opinion? I thought you said onions. UUCP: {akqua,hplabs!hp-sdd,sdcsvax,nosc}crash!billd ARPA: crash!billd@nosc INET: billd@crash.CTS.COM
lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) (03/07/87)
In article <8703051939.AA24035@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: > From what I hear, the Mac II is 4 times faster than the Mac+. The Mac+ >is about half as fast as the Amiga due to video refresh. Thus, the Mac II is >only twice as fast as a vanila Amiga. > I doubt that an Amiga is twice as fast as a Mac Plus; 20% is more like it. (The Mac SE, which has improved video hardware is about 20% faster than a Mac Plus, and I assume that a Mac SE and Amiga are comartouli vai!hair
stergios@rocky.UUCP (03/07/87)
In article <516@apple.UUCP> lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) writes: >I doubt that an Amiga is twice as fast as a Mac Plus; 20% is more like it. >(The Mac SE, which has improved video hardware is about 20% faster than a >Mac Plus, and I assume that a Mac SE and Amiga are comparable.) > >Larry Well, you may have your doubts, but I have the facts. My expert system shell can fire rules at a rate of ~140/sec on the amiga, while only capable of 76 rules/sec on the Mac. The way I count, that looks like twice as fast to me. Heres some other machine statistics; Vax 785 (ultrix) ~410 r/s Vax 785 (VMS) ~450 r/s hp9000 ~335 r/s iBmaT ~ 85 r/s I guess at this point I must make the usuall disclaimer about different machines and different compilers do not make good bed mates for bench marks! But, on the Amiga and the Mac both compilations where performed using the Manx compiler. Stergios Marinopoulos S&M Engineering -- % UUCP: { lll-crg, seismo, sun } !rocky!stergios % % ARPA: f.flex@othello.stanford.edu % % USnail: Crothers Memorial #690, Stanford, CA. 94305 % % Pa Bell: (415) 326-9051 %
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (03/08/87)
> I always thought that Unix offered full multitasking. Admittly that >is not the primary OS coming with the machine anybody putting the full 8megs >of ram onto the motherboard or even going all the way to 2gigabytes of memory >will want Unix. > > Nick I will rephrase my statement: The Macintosh Operating System on the Mac II will not support full multitasking. Frankly I don't see much use in putting 16Meg on the machine unless you plan to run UNIX on it. In fact, 16Meg is all you can stick in a Mac II... not 2 gig. (This is not a flame. After all, the Amiga's max is 8Meg). Never assume you have the entire address space of the processor to work with. In many cases, an address space is split up into several sections. VAXen for instance split Their 32 bit address space into four quarters (with the last one reserved by DEC). The Amiga utilizes some amount of it's address space for ROM, Co-processor/IO, and external cards. xxxUnihoutho
rar@auc.UUCP (03/11/87)
In article <8703081002.AA13809@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: > In fact, 16Meg is all you can stick in a Mac II... not 2 gig. (This >is not a flame. After all, the Amiga's max is 8Meg). Hold on a second. Yes, in a standard Amiga 1000, only about 8.5 Meg is left available for RAM, but this limit is only because of the 68000 processor. When a 68020 is used, the address range of the Amiga expands to approximately 4 gig minus 7.5 meg. This is the true limit of the Amiga Exec's addressing capabilities. Thus, the Amiga system can access up to approximately 3.993 gig of RAM. Actually, its 4 gig, minus what is used for ROM, I/O devices, etc. > .... The Amiga utilizes some amount of it's address space for ROM, >Co-processor/IO, and external cards. > > > -Matt Rodney [ Next: A cute disclaimer ] Since I do not have any connections with Commodore (other than owning an Amiga, and a two Commodore 64's before it, and convincing several people to buy Amigas and ... well, you get the point ) the above information is subject to several abberations, like, for example, being completely wrong. NO WARRANTY EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED Rodney Ricks, Atlanta University Center Computation Center
AAW151%URIACC.BITNET@brownvm.brown.edu (Andy Patrizio) (10/16/90)
Richard Alan Gerber <ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> says:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK. Here's what I saw on the news wire:
Mac Classic $999. 9-in BW screen. 68000 processor.
Mac LC $3,098. 68020 processor. 2 Meg RAM. Hard Disk. Color capabilities.
Mac IIsi. $3,769. 68030 processor. 2 Meg RAM. 80 Meg HD.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Mac Classic is a 2 meg RAM/40 MB HD system, and the keyboard is included.
That is suggested list. Retail will be much lower, and Ed. Disc. will be
even lower, no doubt.
The LC will come with a monitor for that price, and have a card inside to
emulate Apple II software. So you get 2 computers for the price of one,
and at a good price at that.
Like I said earlier, the only thing I see as being good about these machines
is that they might be the thing to light a fire under CBM.
---
Andy Patrizio Bitnet: aaw151@uriacc.bitnet
B100C Ellery Internet: aaw151%uriacc.uri.edu@brownvm.brown.edu
URI Usenet: simon@sbs.bbs.com
Kingston, RI 02881 or... uunet!rayssd!idsvax!andypo @ idsvax.ids.com
(401) 782-2758
---
rip_off()
{
NeXT = (Amiga * steroids) + $6000;
}
---pmorris@bbn.com (Phil Morris) (10/16/90)
Seen in InfoWorld: Mac Classic Mac LC Mac IIsi proc: 68000@7.8336MHz 68020@16MHz 68030@20MHz, PMMU video: mono, 9-inch 8-bit onboard 8-bit onboard sound: output only in & out in & out ram: 2Mb to 4Mb 2Mb to 10Mb 1Mb to 17Mb expansion: none 020 Direct 030 Direct or Nubus (adapter must be purchased) storage: optional 40Mb 40Mb 40Mb or 80Mb availability: Now Jan, 91 Now price: for 2Mb/no drive: 2Mb/40Mb drv: 2Mb/40Mb drive: $999 $2499 $3769 for 2Mb/40Mb drive: $1499 Note that the LC and IIsi need a monitor: Monochrome (12"): $299 RGB (12"): $599 High-res RGB (12"?): $999 so a complete LC goes from: $2798 to $3498 and a complete IIsi goes from: $4068 to $4768 Also, the LC comes equipped with an Apple IIe emulator and it can run almost all apps for the IIe. Note that all prices are list. No educational pricing was mentioned in the article. -Phil -------- Phil Morris (pmorris@dgi0.bbn.com) Disclaimer: ME? I'm only a non-smoking cat; can't believe a word I meow.
torrie@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Evan James Torrie) (10/16/90)
pmorris@bbn.com (Phil Morris) writes: >Seen in InfoWorld: >Note that all prices are list. No educational pricing was mentioned in the >article. The Stanford Bookstore lists the Macintosh LC at approx $1600 available 11-15-90. This includes 2Mb RAM, 40Mb hard disk, keyboard, mouse, microphone and built-in video. An interesting sidepoint is that you can add a 512K VRAM kit to the LC to get up to 32000 colours on screen on the 12" monitor. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "The All Blacks? Who are they? - some plebian
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (10/19/90)
In-Reply-To: message from pmorris@bbn.com The Mac LC doesn't come with the //e emulator...Apple doesn't plan on releasing it until March of '91. This stuff is getting *real* boring... Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | Dual A3000 based, custom Help keep the | computer graphics, RealWorld: Sean Cunningham competition // | animation, presentation, Voice: (512) 994-1602 under \X/ | simulation, accident- | scene re-creation, and ...better life through creative computing... | recreation...(whew!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (10/20/90)
yeah. I'd rather talk about a *real* computer than a Mac. :) -Joseph Hillenburg UUCP: ...iuvax!valnet!joseph ARPA: valnet!joseph@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu INET: joseph@valnet.UUCP