kris@kriski.toppoint.de (Kristian Koehntopp) (10/14/90)
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: > I see a lot of people CLAIM that >they are commercial, but I see no proof. But from reading the doc files >that come with the programs, I do see evidence that they are freely >distributable. does anyone have any proof one way or the other, rather >than just rumors and hearsay? I am really interested in this. I am reporting the following things to the best of my knowledge. I may be wrong in some places or completely at all. Please DO NOT MAIL ME - I have to PAY FOR INCOMING MAIL! Please excuse my english. In 10/86 there was a tracker-program "Sound Monitor" listed in the german "64er" magazine of "markt&technik verlag ag". It was written by Chris Huelsbeck. On Amiga Chris Huelsbeck is selling TFM-X, which has been reported to me as not being compatible to SoundTracker and its derivatives. In early 1987 the program "SoundTracker", written by Karsten Obarski, was published by EAS. As far as I know, EAS does not longer exist. This program ist definitly not pd. "NoiseTracker" is a cracked, hacked and completly modified version of SoundTracker. You can take it as a coproduction of most of the infamous german cracker guilds. The following features were added to NoiseTracker (there may be more): 32 instruments support (instead of 16), sample recorder, playable module saving, set restart point, copy/cut/paste, insert/delete, revised play routine (about 5 times faster), directory "window", integrated preset editor, packed songs, dynamic replay speed, more sound effects, pattern position jump, pattern break, filter control etc. These changes were incorporated into NoiseTracker by different people. There are many different flavours and streams of NoiseTracker. The person I asked could not even tell me the most recent version number, it must be somewhere between 3.4 and 5.0. My source said "Karsten Obarski had the idea and defined a format. But NoiseTracker has nothing to do with SoundTracker any more. And I don't know anyone, who can claim to have a copyright on this program." You may judge yourself if you take NoiseTracker as pd or not. There are compatible programs: "SoundFX" is a SoundTracker with real gadgets and minimal changes in internal formats. SoundFX was written by Christian Haller and was to be sold. According to my source it never came out since it was too much like SoundTracker inside. SID-Mon I by TurtleByte is also a Tracker-lookalike. It was written by some dutch person (R.van Vliet ???). An improved version, SID-Mon II is about to be released in a few months by TurtleByte. It is able to load scores produced by SoundTracker, NoiseTracker and its derivatives. It also has some nasty bugs of Version I fixed. SID-Mon II was written by Michael Kleps. Octalyzer was written by Armin Sander and is sold by "Verlag Mayer" in germany. I do not know anything about compatibility between SoundTracker and Octalyzer. SoundTracker and NoiseTracker are single big Seka-isms and are trying to ignore the ROM-Kernel-Services as far as they can do. I know of versions of NoiseTracker that crashed upon the existence of fast memory or the presence of a fixed disk in system. This has been fixed in newer versions. I seems that cracker guilds are deeply involved into the development of most of these programs. My source claimed some of the persons mentioned above to have well known three letter acronyms. I can not verify or prove this. Disclaimer: I do not own an Amiga any more. My informations relies completely on the reports of one single person and my own observations of about 2 years ago, when I had an Amiga. I can not tell you where to get a copy, legal or not, of any of the programs mentioned above. I know that software piracy is illegal, so there is no need to mail me this fact. Kristian Kristian Koehntopp, Harmsstrasse 98, 2300 Kiel, +49 431 676689, kris@tpki.UUCP Eine Nachricht dieses Absenders enthaelt 235 Bytes ASCII und 2% Header (mind.) nach DIN. Der Bundesinformationsminister: Net-News gefaehrdet Ihre Freizeit!
dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (10/17/90)
In article <1242@kriski.toppoint.de> kris@kriski.toppoint.de (Kristian Koehntopp) writes: >sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: >> I see a lot of people CLAIM that >>they are commercial, but I see no proof. But from reading the doc files >>that come with the programs, I do see evidence that they are freely >>distributable. does anyone have any proof one way or the other, rather >>than just rumors and hearsay? I am really interested in this. > [deleted] >In early 1987 the program "SoundTracker", written by Karsten Obarski, was >published by EAS. As far as I know, EAS does not longer exist. This program >ist definitly not pd. > >"NoiseTracker" is a cracked, hacked and completly modified version of >SoundTracker. You can take it as a coproduction of most of the infamous >german cracker guilds. The following features were added to NoiseTracker >(there may be more): 32 instruments support (instead of 16), sample >recorder, playable module saving, set restart point, copy/cut/paste, >insert/delete, revised play routine (about 5 times faster), directory >"window", integrated preset editor, packed songs, dynamic replay speed, more >sound effects, pattern position jump, pattern break, filter control etc. The german crackers wrote soundtracker( ~15 versions at least ) and master soundtracker. Noisetracker was written by Mahoney and Kaktus ( swedes ) originally. > >These changes were incorporated into NoiseTracker by different people. There >are many different flavours and streams of NoiseTracker. The person I asked >could not even tell me the most recent version number, it must be somewhere >between 3.4 and 5.0. My source said "Karsten Obarski had the idea and >defined a format. But NoiseTracker has nothing to do with SoundTracker any >more. And I don't know anyone, who can claim to have a copyright on this >program." You may judge yourself if you take NoiseTracker as pd or not. Noisetracker is out in different versions. 3.0 is older than 2.1 which gives you an idea of the chaos. Newer versions seem to have their own names like Protracker etc. Noisetracker IS copyrighted by agreement with Karsten Obarski. > >There are compatible programs: "SoundFX" is a SoundTracker with real gadgets >and minimal changes in internal formats. SoundFX was written by Christian >Haller and was to be sold. According to my source it never came out since it >was too much like SoundTracker inside. SoundFX was used in-house by REline for a time but the program was poorly written compared to others and had no future. > >SID-Mon I by TurtleByte is also a Tracker-lookalike. It was written by some >dutch person (R.van Vliet ???). An improved version, SID-Mon II is about to >be released in a few months by TurtleByte. It is able to load scores >produced by SoundTracker, NoiseTracker and its derivatives. It also has some >nasty bugs of Version I fixed. SID-Mon II was written by Michael Kleps. SIDmon II seems a lot better than I but TFMX or MARKII is better and more versatile. Music assembler may be worth checking out since the play-routine is much better. > >Octalyzer was written by Armin Sander and is sold by "Verlag Mayer" in >germany. I do not know anything about compatibility between SoundTracker and >Octalyzer. > >SoundTracker and NoiseTracker are single big Seka-isms and are trying to >ignore the ROM-Kernel-Services as far as they can do. I know of versions of >NoiseTracker that crashed upon the existence of fast memory or the presence >of a fixed disk in system. This has been fixed in newer versions. > >I seems that cracker guilds are deeply involved into the development of most >of these programs. My source claimed some of the persons mentioned above to >have well known three letter acronyms. I can not verify or prove this. They are all old demo-coders. Most of them have quit the "scene" completely. > >Disclaimer: I do not own an Amiga any more. My informations relies >completely on the reports of one single person and my own observations of >about 2 years ago, when I had an Amiga. I can not tell you where to get a >copy, legal or not, of any of the programs mentioned above. I know that >software piracy is illegal, so there is no need to mail me this fact. > >Kristian > [deleted] I have just added some info if someone is interested. I saw someone wanting hard evidence that ST, NT etc. is pirated. This is impossible to send via net mail or news. I know for a fact ( trust me on this one :-)) that soundtracker ( the original version ) was copyrighted. Master soundtracker and Noisetracker 2.0 were also copyrighted. The others are not protected by a copyright notice but are usually PD. They may however be illegal since they resemble st/nt too much. In some cases even the source is almost identical. The only way to be sure is to try it in a court of law in your country. Hope I added additional disarray to the debate ;-) Jorgen
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (10/19/90)
First, a question. What do the *Tracker family of programs do, anyway??
And, a comment. If the copyright owner (and not the net.police) do not
vigorously protect its rights, then it loses them.
leedvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (10/19/90)
In article <90291.164234UH2@psuvm.psu.edu> UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) writes: >First, a question. What do the *Tracker family of programs do, anyway?? > >And, a comment. If the copyright owner (and not the net.police) do not >vigorously protect its rights, then it loses them. > > lee The copyright owners in this case does not have net access. Since I can't phone them every time you guys say a tracker is PD I simply tell you it's pirate. If everyone reasoned like you the only guys with copyrights would be apple... Jorgen
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (10/19/90)
dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) writes: |Noisetracker is out in different versions. 3.0 is older than 2.1 which gives |you an idea of the chaos. Newer versions seem to have their own names like |Protracker etc. Noisetracker IS copyrighted by agreement with Karsten Obarski. Well maybe some of the confusion is being caused by the terms we are using. Just because a program is copyrighted and is being passed around on BBS's doesn't mean it is pirated. There is such a thing as Freely Distributable software. The Author retains the copyright but allows the program to be passed around freely. What I am saying is that I don't care if Noisetracker is copyrighted or not. I want to know is it a commercial program that has been stolen and is being passed around illegally. I still don't have an answer to that one. None exept more rumors and "I can't prove it but 'trust me'". You might not be able to SHOW me the proof over the network but at least you can describe it to me? |Hope I added additional disarray to the debate ;-) Yep. |Jorgen -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
timm@public.BTR.COM (Timothy M. Maffett timm@btr.com) (10/21/90)
I now have a copy of SoundTracker, circa 1987/1988. In my manual this is the
info given:
EAS Software Gbr
Ferdiandstrasse 16
D-4630
Bochum 1
Tel 0234/34307
The program also says (c) 1987 by Karsten Obarski.
In article <1990Oct19.001413.5368@cs.umu.se> dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) writes:
>In article <90291.164234UH2@psuvm.psu.edu> UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) writes:
>>First, a question. What do the *Tracker family of programs do, anyway??
>>
>>And, a comment. If the copyright owner (and not the net.police) do not
>>vigorously protect its rights, then it loses them.
>>
>> lee
A VERY GOOD point that I have been meaning to make for quite some time.
>The copyright owners in this case does not have net access. Since I can't phone
>them every time you guys say a tracker is PD I simply tell you it's pirate.
>If everyone reasoned like you the only guys with copyrights would be apple...
>
> Jorgen
They may not have net access, but examine these FACTS (as opposed to
most things provided in this conversation so far):
NoiseTracker being accepted for download by GEnie, featured in
US AmigaWorld's Best of the PD column, featured in various UK
Amiga magazine PD columns (Amiga Computing, Amiga User Int...),
being distributed by MANY PD software houses in both the UK and the
US.
You may say don't have access to any of these thing either (but I
have bought all of these magizines at street corner kiosks in both
germany and switzerland) but the point is in the US and UK at least
it has been announced/provided by many legitimate sources as a
PD/freely redistributable software program for quite sometime, years
in the case of the UK. They have had years to pursue any of these
sources and tell them that the software in question is not
freely redistributable (In the case of AmigaWorld and GEnie it probably
involve only a phone call). They obviously have not done this.
In the US at least you must ACTIVELY pursue any possible copyright
infringements, pleading ignorance is no excuse. It would be safe to
say that the copyright holder lost any rights long ago (in the US
and UK at least, and anywhere else similar circumstances exists).
Not pursuing thier copyright in a timely fashion is one of the reasons
why the Xerox-Apple suit was dismissed.
And lets not here any more "look and feel" bs, someone who has
lost there copyright has no basis for "look and feel".
oh, I called the number above, and it is no longer a valid number. I
was going to try to contact the parties involved and notify them of the
situation (as I would have thought you and others who claim to
know these people would have done).
lets all use some common sense.
-timstelmack@screamer.csee.usf.edu (Gregory M. Stelmack) (10/21/90)
Well, if someone could provide us a location from which we could buy SoundTracker/NoiseTracker or a derivative, maybe that would help settle the debate. We keep hearing that it's copyrighted, but I have never seen a commercial copy floating around I could purchase. With all the obvious interest, maybe the authors could make some money, if they actually sold it. -- Greg Stelmack -- Email: stelmack@sol.csee.usf.edu -- USmail: USF Box 1510, Tampa, FL 33620-1510 -- Amiga: the only way to compute! -- IRAQNOPHOBIA: Nothing a little RAID wouldn't cure!