WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (10/16/90)
I just got done watching a live satellite feed from the Apple
headquarters in Sunnyvale. The show was interesting, but boring,
as it went on and on about mhow much such-and-such people dearly
adore the new MAC systems. As could be expected, there were
loud boos and hisses from the local crowd when Apple showed a
segment from archrival Drake University in Des Moines.
The new systems are quite interesting, and will give Commodore
a lot of trouble, particularly if Commodore chooses to ignore them.
The MAC Classic is the least interesting of the bunch, as it is
simply a MAC Plus by another name.
The other two systems are quite interesting. The MAC IISI comes with
a 68030 running at 20Mhz (no FPU, though),the now-standard color video
(256 colors out of 16 Million, 640x480 non-interlaced resolution), 2MB
of RAM, a 40MB hard drive, the SuperDrive, and keyboard. The retail
price of this system is $3800, which is surprisingly close to the
retail price of the A3000/25-50. You can also hack 30% off of this
price for the education discount, and you get an '030-based color MAC
for $2700, which is a very reasonable price.
The other system is precisely what I've been calling for Commodore
to develop for the past year, but Commodore did not listen. Apparently
Apple did, and this could also give Commodore a lot of trouble. The
MAC LC uses a 68020 running at 16Mhz, a 40MB hard drive, 2MB of memory,
the same color video as the rest of the MAC II line, SuperDrive, and
keyboard. The retail price for this system is $2500, and you can also
hack 30% off of this price for the education market, leaving you with
a 32-bit color MAC system for $1800, which is right in the part of
Commodore's Amiga product line where Commodore is weakest: the
market in between the A500 and the A3000/16.
Consider this: for little more than the cost of an Amiga 2000HD,
you can now get a MAC II running at 16Mhz, with much better video
and twice the memory. If people think this won't give Commodore
trouble, they are smoking something.
Hopefully the new introductions by Apple will be just what is
needed to kick Commodore in the ass and get them to start producing
a low-cost Amiga system with decent color capability. Probably not,
though. Commodore seems stubborn about color: they will go out of
business before they improve it.
Sure, you can get fancy color cards for the Amiga that give you
24-bit color, but they are totally non-standard, work with very
little software, and cost extra. The point of the two new color
MAC systems is that they give you better color capability than an
Amiga as standard hardware for a decent price, something that the
Amiga can no longer offer.
AMIGA: Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!!
-MB-navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (10/16/90)
In article <33530@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > AMIGA: Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!! > -MB- Before everybody starts flaming the statement, without reading the rest of the article, let's try to establish some facts. 1) The Amiga's graphics have not measurably improved in five years. 2) That is not the sole measure of a computer. The A3000 has what may be the best designed internal bus architecture, but in the PC world, you don't sell computers that way. [Alas] IMNSHO, Commodore should have developed a 1024x768 non-interlaced, 256 color *STANDARD* display last year -- but there are serious operating system problems to be dealt with. Let us hope that Andy Finkel's posting about job positions indicates the future direction our OS and hardware will take. And release that Lowell board, for crying out loud! [Some strategic price cuts in about a month wouldn't hurt either.] *IF* Commodore has not been working on new graphics chips, then we will be in trouble. But it's no use yelling about something that may or may not happen, it is far more productive to suggest what your David Navas navas@sim.berkeley.edu "Excuse my ignorance, but I've been run over by my train of thought." -me
amiga@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) (10/16/90)
In refrence to the Lowell Board, the new Amiga World (Nov 1990) says the it will be out by Christmas. Now what does it work with?
rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (10/16/90)
In article <33530@nigel.ee.udel.edu> WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: | | I just got done watching a live satellite feed from the Apple |headquarters in Sunnyvale. The show was interesting, but boring, |as it went on and on about mhow much such-and-such people dearly |adore the new MAC systems. As could be expected, there were |loud boos and hisses from the local crowd when Apple showed a |segment from archrival Drake University in Des Moines. | | The new systems are quite interesting, and will give Commodore |a lot of trouble, particularly if Commodore chooses to ignore them. |The MAC Classic is the least interesting of the bunch, as it is |simply a MAC Plus by another name. | | The other two systems are quite interesting. The MAC IISI comes with |a 68030 running at 20Mhz (no FPU, though),the now-standard color video |(256 colors out of 16 Million, 640x480 non-interlaced resolution), 2MB |of RAM, a 40MB hard drive, the SuperDrive, and keyboard. The retail |price of this system is $3800, which is surprisingly close to the |retail price of the A3000/25-50. You can also hack 30% off of this |price for the education discount, and you get an '030-based color MAC |for $2700, which is a very reasonable price. The Mac IIsi is no comparision against the A3000/25-50. No FPU, non -multitasking, 20mhz 68030, and 1 expansion slot. And it costs $800 more than the A3000 does. The A3000 has 640x480 non interlaced, and it also has 1280x400, 640x960,etc. 256 colors out of 16 million is nothing, this is nothing more than VGA,Mac style. The fact is HAM-E is out, and for the extra price of the Mac IIsi ($800) you can buy HAM-E, and 256 colors out of 16 mill, or 262,000 of 16 mill. I know its LO-RES, but what the hey. What do you need hi-res color for? Multimedia is NTSC, which clearly doesn't have 24bit color. Also HAM-E works perfectly with AmigaDOS and lots of other software from what I've heard. Considering the price of Mac software, the Amiga is still the cheaper and better buy. | The other system is precisely what I've been calling for Commodore |to develop for the past year, but Commodore did not listen. Apparently |Apple did, and this could also give Commodore a lot of trouble. The |MAC LC uses a 68020 running at 16Mhz, a 40MB hard drive, 2MB of memory, |the same color video as the rest of the MAC II line, SuperDrive, and |keyboard. The retail price for this system is $2500, and you can also |hack 30% off of this price for the education market, leaving you with |a 32-bit color MAC system for $1800, which is right in the part of |Commodore's Amiga product line where Commodore is weakest: the |market in between the A500 and the A3000/16. Take an Amiga 2000, add a GVP or 68020 card with HD, and then tell me if it costs more than $2500. Also, as again, the MAC LC only has 1 expansion slot. | Consider this: for little more than the cost of an Amiga 2000HD, |you can now get a MAC II running at 16Mhz, with much better video |and twice the memory. If people think this won't give Commodore |trouble, they are smoking something. | | Hopefully the new introductions by Apple will be just what is |needed to kick Commodore in the ass and get them to start producing |a low-cost Amiga system with decent color capability. Probably not, |though. Commodore seems stubborn about color: they will go out of |business before they improve it. Amiga's are already low cost. Take any Mac system, and spend the same amount of money on an Amiga. You will always come up with a much more powerful system. The A500 is much better than the classic. A3000 is better then the SI. Color, smolor... A large majority of the people I know who own Macs are B&W. | Sure, you can get fancy color cards for the Amiga that give you |24-bit color, but they are totally non-standard, work with very |little software, and cost extra. The point of the two new color |MAC systems is that they give you better color capability than an |Amiga as standard hardware for a decent price, something that the |Amiga can no longer offer. HAM-E? DCTV? Video Toaster? The only advantage the Mac has is not in hardware, but in software. The amiga needs a way to support third-party video easily. We already know Commodore is working on this (note the recent jobs offered and their positions) What does this whining accomplish. Do you think by thrasing commodore at every attempt will somehow make them say 'Gosh, MB is right, we are behind in color. Lets take his advice and make him president in charge of Amiga Color.' Commodore and the Amiga crew are not soo short-sighted that they can't see the amiga's limitations. Give them time, you can't redo the whole graphic design and OS interface in a day. | | AMIGA: Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!! | | | -MB- -- "NeXTs are useless... Mac's are irrelevent.. IBM's are futile. Amiga's,however, are quite nice!" -Capt Jeal-Luc Amiga | Flames to /dev/null Ray Cromwell rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu | // AMIGA! \\ "Your software will adapt to service ours!"| \X/ AMIGA! \X/
gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (10/17/90)
In article <33530@nigel.ee.udel.edu>, Marc Barrett <WHE46@ccvax.iastate.edu> writes: |> Hopefully the new introductions by Apple will be just what is |> needed to kick Commodore in the ass and get them to start producing |> a low-cost Amiga system with decent color capability. Probably not, |> though. Commodore seems stubborn about color: they will go out of |> business before they improve it. I agree here, although I must point out that Commodore is doing all that they can. They are doing "all the right moves". Sadly, they are just too far behind. Another machine to really look out for is the new NeXT systems. These machines kick ass. The low cost system is beautiful: 4 grey scale megapixel display, 100 meg drive (far too small of course, but you can add more 8-), 8 megs RAM, and NeXTStep, all for a pittance. The color system is more expensive, but is worth it. All of these machines have the ultimate GUI. Forget Finder and Intuition, NeXTStep is simply beautiful. The only thing that is comparable is Open Look and NeWS. I used some NeXTs when they first came out (actually a little before they first came out), and there was no software available for it. Now, things have changed, there IS software available for it, and furthermore the Interface Builder is sooooo easy to work with. You can have programs up and running in no time flat. |> Sure, you can get fancy color cards for the Amiga that give you |> 24-bit color, but they are totally non-standard, work with very |> little software, and cost extra. The point of the two new color |> MAC systems is that they give you better color capability than an |> Amiga as standard hardware for a decent price, something that the |> Amiga can no longer offer. I hope that Commodore has something to show that will make all things switch around. I am going to be getting a system within a year or so, and if Commodore has something with a megapixel color display, device independent graphics, UNIX, etc, then I will possibly buy it. The idea is, I'm going to try to get the most computer for my buck (and right now, it just doesn't deliver adequate performance). See ya, Ralph PS- Please send flames (and I know that there's gonna be a lot of them), to me via email, only post if it benefits the net. gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu gilgalad@zip.eecs.umich.edu gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ralph_Seguin@ub.cc.umich.edu gilgalad@sparky.eecs.umich.edu USER6TUN@UMICHUB.BITNET Ralph Seguin | "You mean THE Zaphod Beeblebrox?" 536 South Forest | Apartment 915 | "No. Haven't you heard, I come in six packs!" Ann Arbor, MI 48104 | (313) 662-4805
joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (10/17/90)
amiga@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) writes: > In refrence to the Lowell Board, the new Amiga World (Nov 1990) says the > it will be out by Christmas. Now what does it work with? What is the model number of the CBM/ULowell card and what are the exact specs? -Joseph Hillenburg UUCP: ...iuvax!valnet!joseph ARPA: valnet!joseph@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu INET: joseph@valnet.UUCP
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (10/18/90)
In <6823@sugar.hackercorp.com>, peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1990Oct16.200318.28393@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: >> beautiful. The only thing that is comparable is Open Look and >> NeWS. > >Open Look? Barf. > >Open Look is just a style guide. It does nothing to solve the programming >problem. NeWS is dead: Sun just plain dropped the ball by being greedy: if >they'd given it away they'd have a home-team advantage now. What's the >status of Display Postscript (the NeWS lookalike NeXT uses)? If they gave it away? Let's see, the full spec was published and available, and folks were encouraged to write their own implementations. Sun's source code was available at a reasonable price (don't recall numbers), and you could buy NeWS for the Sun for about $150 (that's in Northern Pesos, so US price was less). That $150 bought you the Media, software, extensive docs, and 'right to use' license. Greedy? Hardly. -larry -- It is not possible to both understand and appreciate Intel CPUs. -D.Wolfskill +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) (10/18/90)
Hello,
Well, here is all the literature that you have been waiting for.
I have picked up spec sheets on the new low cost Mac systems at the bookstore
here on campus.
Mac Classic Macintosh LC Macintosh IIsi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CPU 8mhz 68000 16 mhz 68020 20 mhz 68030
MMU N/A N/A 68882 (optional)
RAM 1 meg (exp. 2 megs (exp. to 2 megs (exp. to
to 4 megs 10 megs) 17 megs).
Interfaces External drive 020 Direct slot External drive
Two Serial ports SCSI port One NuBus or 030 slot
Apple Desktop bus Sound input ADB port
(ADB port) Sound output Sound input
Sound output Two serial ports Stereo output
Video output port Two serial
Internal modem slot Video output
ADB port
HD Optional 40 int. Internal 40 Internal 40 or 80
Optional ext. Optional external Optional external
Monitor- Built-in B/W Mac 12" RGB AppleColor HiRes
support Mac 12" Mono Mac 12" RGB
AppleColor HiRes RGB Mac 12" mono
Mac Portrait
Display- N/A N/A Apple two-page mono
support
ROM 512k 512K 512K
Power Supply 100 watts 50 Watts 100 watts
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some other tidbits about each of the systems directly from the
brochure.
Mac IIsi 2/40
* Macintosh IIsi personal computer with 2 megabytes of RAM, built-in
1.4-megabyte Apple SuperDrive floppy disk drive, and an internal
40-megabyte hard disk drive.
* Mouse
* Microphone
* Complete setup, learning and reference documentation
* System software and HyperCard software
* Training disks
* Limited warranty statement
Mac IIsi 5/80
* Macintosh IIsi personal computer with 5 megabytes of RAM, built-in
1.4-megabyte SuperDrive floppy disk drive, and an internal 80
megabyte hard disk drive.
* Mouse
* Microphone
* Complete setup, learning and reference documentation
* System software and HyperCard software
* Training disks
* Limited warranty statement
Macintosh LC
* Macintosh LC personal computer with 2 megabytes of RAM, built-in
1.4-megabyte Apple SuperDrive floppy disk drive, and an internal
40-megabyte hard disk drive.
* Keyboard
* Mouse
* Complete setup, learning and reference documentation
* System software and HyperCard software
* Training disks
* Limited warranty statement
Macintosh Classic
* Macintosh Classic personal computer with 1 megabyte of RAM and
built-in 1.4-megabyte Apple SuperDrive
* Keyboard
* Mouse
* Complete setup, learning and documentation
* System software and HyperCard software
* Training disk
* Limited warranty statement
Macintosh Classic 2/40
* Macintosh Classic personal computer with 2 megabytes of RAM,
built-in 1.4-megabyte Apple SuperDrive, and internal 40-megabyte
hard disk drive
* Keyboard
* Mouse
* Complete setup, learning and reference documentation
* System software and HyperCard software
* Training disk
* Limited warranty statement
The LC has 256 colors on a 12" RGB monitor, 16 shades of gray on the 12" mono
and 16 colors on the AppleColor Hi Res RGB monitor. It also says with an
optional LC 512K VRAM (price?) SIMM the system is capable of generating even
more colors or shades of gray on all monitors.
As you would expect the II si supports 256 colors and shades of gray with all
Apple monitors.
All of the above sound inputs are 8 bit sound input. I think that just about
covers the highlights of the NEW Macs. There is some other information in
those brochures. I guess you could raid your local university bookstore and
find them too. I didn't grab a price list, so I have no idea of the costs of
all the configurations of the above systems beyond what I have read here on
CSA.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================================
||NeXT- (nekst) N. The only PC to have sold less than 10,000 units and ||
|| not be considered a flop. ||
||------------------------------------------/ /------------------------||
||---Brian Wright | / / ||
||---s36666wb@etsuacad.etsu.edu | \ \/ / Only Amiga ||
||---Commercial Artist and Amigaphile| \/\/ Makes It Possible!! ||
=======================================================================peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/18/90)
In article <1990Oct16.200318.28393@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: > beautiful. The only thing that is comparable is Open Look and > NeWS. Open Look? Barf. Open Look is just a style guide. It does nothing to solve the programming problem. NeWS is dead: Sun just plain dropped the ball by being greedy: if they'd given it away they'd have a home-team advantage now. What's the status of Display Postscript (the NeWS lookalike NeXT uses)? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (10/19/90)
In <9948@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>, msawyer@hokulea.hig.hawaii.edu (Michael Sawyer (REU)) writes: >In article <2138@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: > >>available at a reasonable price (don't recall numbers), and you could buy NeWS >>for the Sun for about $150 (that's in Northern Pesos, so US price was less). >>That $150 bought you the Media, software, extensive docs, and 'right to use' >>license. Greedy? Hardly. > >But the software was a dog... I had to spend some time using NeWS for >to run a few `minor' programs, and and it was terrible to work with. >The user interface was OK (better than SunView, I will admit), but I >must have found 100 bugs in the system. This is true, and it was the reason X 'won' the market, (as opposed to 'greed' on Sun's part). >Much better is their new OpenLook stuff (which incorporates NeWS as >well). The NeWS in this version seems to have the bugs fixed, and >doesn't force you to use the NeWS terminal windows. (Which if you >make small, the text size gets small, still 80 col by 24 lines...) Well, to each his own. I use OpenLook every day, and am not overly thrilled with it. Yes, it is based in NeWS, but it has a lot of X-isms (implemented in NeWS, which says a fair bit about the power of NeWS itself). >Although I am not sure exactly we got on this topic in c.s.a.t, but I >will say that overall I have liked OpenLook better than the Amiga >windowing system. I have only played with the 2.0 windows a little >bit (too busy with other stuff to mess with that). I think all the GUIs can learn a little from each other. -larry -- It is not possible to both understand and appreciate Intel CPUs. -D.Wolfskill +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (10/19/90)
rjc@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >| The other two systems are quite interesting. The MAC IISI comes with >|a 68030 running at 20Mhz (no FPU, though),the now-standard color video >|(256 colors out of 16 Million, 640x480 non-interlaced resolution), 2MB >|of RAM, a 40MB hard drive, the SuperDrive, and keyboard. The retail >|price of this system is $3800, which is surprisingly close to the >|retail price of the A3000/25-50. > The Mac IIsi is no comparision against the A3000/25-50. No FPU, non >-multitasking, 20mhz 68030, and 1 expansion slot. > And it costs $800 more than the A3000 does. The A3000 has 640x480 >non interlaced, and it also has 1280x400, 640x960,etc. 256 colors out >of 16 million is nothing, this is nothing more than VGA,Mac style. Hey! you are comparing Amiga 3000 Educational costs against the list price of the Macs! I think the Amiga's are still a better deal too, but let's be honest and compare apples to apples. Or would that be apples to amigas? Look here are the list prices for the Amiga 3000 systems. Note they include amigavision and a multisync monitor, which you don't get with the new Macs, ( but I do think you get hypercard, so the only big difference will be how much extra you have to pay for the monitor on the Mac deals) [all in $US] Amiga 3000/16-50 List $4098 Amiga 3000/25-50 List $4798 Amiga 3000/25-100 List $5798 You can figure that a multi-sync monitor will cost around $500, so either deduct ~$500 from the list prices of the Amigas, or add ~$500 to the cost of the Macs. Dont forget that the Macs don't have FPU's. So let's see... The new Mac IIsi would cost around $4300 with a monitor. The Amiga 3000/25-50 costs $4798. So the Mac system will cost $498 less than the Amiga system. But it's slower (20Mhz vs. 25Mhz) and it has no FPU. To me that makes up for the $498 difference in price. But if CBM suddenly felt a little pressure to lower their list prices, then I wouldn't complain. -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
msawyer@hokulea.hig.hawaii.edu (Michael Sawyer (REU)) (10/20/90)
In article <2138@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >available at a reasonable price (don't recall numbers), and you could buy NeWS >for the Sun for about $150 (that's in Northern Pesos, so US price was less). >That $150 bought you the Media, software, extensive docs, and 'right to use' >license. Greedy? Hardly. But the software was a dog... I had to spend some time using NeWS for to run a few `minor' programs, and and it was terrible to work with. The user interface was OK (better than SunView, I will admit), but I must have found 100 bugs in the system. Much better is their new OpenLook stuff (which incorporates NeWS as well). The NeWS in this version seems to have the bugs fixed, and doesn't force you to use the NeWS terminal windows. (Which if you make small, the text size gets small, still 80 col by 24 lines...) Although I am not sure exactly we got on this topic in c.s.a.t, but I will say that overall I have liked OpenLook better than the Amiga windowing system. I have only played with the 2.0 windows a little bit (too busy with other stuff to mess with that). --- return mail to: msawyer@io.soest.hawaii.edu Michael Sawyer, Univ of Hawaii Physical Oceanography (They don't even know I am using rn, so I sure don't speak for UH!)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/22/90)
In article <3412@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: > Amiga 3000/16-50 List $4098 This is more usable horsepower than the MAC IIsi, since the Amiga has a lot less CPU-burning code left over from poor software designs. More responsive, faster execution, more usable RAM... ...and if you don't care about that stuff, why not get a Mac Classic? > So the Mac system will cost $498 less than the Amiga system. Nope... $200 more. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.