apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (10/17/90)
Some people have expressed confusion over the legality of the "Atari emulator" now floating around the net for the Amiga. I understand that Atari's position is that it is a grave and flagrant violation of Atari's copyright, and we are asking everybody, especially archive sites and BBSes, to stop distributing it and remove all copies they have. I don't know why people think this *could* be legal: it's a derivative work from Atari's copyrighted material, and Atari intends to protect its copyrights. Some people have expressed dismay that their favorite archive or BBS might get in trouble. In my *personal* opinion, the operators of these sites bring doom upon themselves by making uploads immediately available for downloading, with no checks on the content of the uploads. I believe that only a Common Carrier, such as the phone company or an airline, can legally be blind to the content of the information or goods they transport and distribute. Everybody else is responsible for exercising due diligence to ensure that no illegal activity is going on using their equipment or service. Since this program is prima facie a copyright violation, a duly diligent sysop would not have made it available for downloads. Finally, some people have expressed the opinion that Atari should be a "good guy" and take no action concerning this. That's nonsense. If you don't vigorously protect your copyrights, you lose them. Ignoring this could mean relinquishing all rights to protect TOS from copying and modification. This message represents my opinions and things I believe to be true, but it is not to be considered a legal opinion from Atari's legal department or anybody else but me. -- Allan Pratt Systems Software Engineer Atari Computer Corp. ...ames!atari!apratt
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (10/18/90)
I am sorry but I have to concur with Atari's position. These emulators are indeed a flagrant copyright violation, and the BBS sysops should be held responsible and liable for their action of not policing the download of software from their machines. -- Marco -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
aiajms@castle.ed.ac.uk (-=Andy=-) (10/18/90)
In this months Amiga Format magazine there is a review of the Medusa ST emulation system. This comprises of a hardware gizzmo to emulate the STs I/O and a software emulator. From what I have seen of the review it does not fair much better than the version on xanth. Now for the interesting part. The method of getting TOS is to go to an ST and use an included utility called gettos. This has the effect of copying the TOS from ROM into an image file. This company is about to market this product! I am quite sure they would not be so naive as to market a utility of this sort without checking the legal circumstances behind it!!! I personally agree with what a guy said on comp.sys.atari.st concerning Apple and GNU. GNU do not port their stuff onto Apple because of the aggressive attitude they take to people emulating their products (NOT PIRACY WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT) and the law suits that follow. If the emulator contains an image of TOS then it is illegal. If however it is merely functionally isomorphic to the original then I personally (before the flames come rolling in this is MY opinion) congratulate the programmer on a well written piece of software. One last twist! As a footnote in Amiga Format stated, there is a German software ST emulator coming out called Chameleon. I know nothing about this except it is meant to cost 30 pounds (=$60) whereas the Medusa hardware/software emulator costs 200 pounds (=$400). I hope the atari emulator on xanth is not the same as this reported chameleon. Things are starting to get out of hand...lock up your daughters ...call in the judges, the lawyers and the House Of Lords! Nobody is safe!!!!!! Well thats my halfpenny ! -=Andy=- PS the ST version of SIM City runs ok on the emulator! =========================================================================== Name : A Mcsherry Degree: Computer Science & Artificial Intelligence // Univ : University Of Edinburgh, Scotland. \\ // Mail : aiajms%uk.ac.ed.castle@nsfnet-relay \X/ Motd : Don't be STingy, buy a decent computer --> AMIGA ==========================================================================
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) (10/18/90)
In article <6737@castle.ed.ac.uk> aiajms@castle.ed.ac.uk (-=Andy=-) writes: [some opinions and descriptions deleted] >I personally agree with what a guy said on comp.sys.atari.st concerning >Apple and GNU. GNU do not port their stuff onto Apple because of the >aggressive attitude they take to people emulating their products (NOT >PIRACY WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT) and the law suits that follow. Nope. As I understand it, the GNU issue had _nothing_ to do with emulation. It was a result of Apple's look-and-feel bull regarding the appearance of competing products such as MS Windows, HP New Wave, and earlier, GEM. Apple _popularized_ the use of a mouse and windows, but did not _invent_ it. Although the Free Software Foundation (creators of GNU and the associated utilities) do not claim a copyright to their work (in fact, they have a "copyleft"), they do not oppose others protecting their work. Apple has not bothered those who market Macintosh emulators based on legal copies of their ROMs. >-=Andy=- > > >PS the ST version of SIM City runs ok on the emulator! > > >=========================================================================== >Name : A Mcsherry >Degree: Computer Science & Artificial Intelligence // >Univ : University Of Edinburgh, Scotland. \\ // >Mail : aiajms%uk.ac.ed.castle@nsfnet-relay \X/ >Motd : Don't be STingy, buy a decent computer --> AMIGA >========================================================================== -- Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(()) UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) | Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ } GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----'
bartonr@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Robert L Barton) (10/18/90)
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) cross-posts: > Although the Free Software Foundation (creators of GNU and the associated > utilities) do not claim a copyright to their work (in fact, they have a > "copyleft"), they do not oppose others protecting their work. GNU Emacs is "Copyright (C) 1988 Free Software Foundation, Inc.". That sounds like a copyright to me.
jwright@cfht.hawaii.edu (Jim Wright) (10/18/90)
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: > Atari ST emulator for the Amiga: Atari's position > This message represents my opinions and things I believe to be true, > but it is not to be considered a legal opinion from Atari's legal > department or anybody else but me. Obvious conclusion: Allan Pratt *IS* Atari. -- Jim Wright jwright@cfht.hawaii.edu Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope Corp.
gunda@cbmehq.UUCP (Gunda O'Neal ESCO) (10/18/90)
In article <6737@castle.ed.ac.uk> aiajms@castle.ed.ac.uk (-=Andy=-) writes: > >One last twist! As a footnote in Amiga Format stated, there is a German >software ST emulator coming out called Chameleon. I know nothing about >this except it is meant to cost 30 pounds (=$60) whereas the Medusa >hardware/software emulator costs 200 pounds (=$400). I hope the atari > If you talk about the MEDUSA from MacroSystem (ex- Combitec), the price is DM 436,00, that's appr. $ 290,00. (as per Developers Application Form June 1990) > >-=Andy=- -- Gunda O'Neal, Assistant Commodore European Support & Coordination Office (ESCO) UUCP: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!gunda "I am easy to please, as long as things go my way ..."
scott@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Yelich) (10/19/90)
> does not fair much better than the version on xanth. [DELETED] > emulator on xanth is not the same as this reported chameleon. Things are > starting to get out of hand...lock up your daughters ...call in the judges I just want to clear things up.... xanth.cs.odu.edu is no longer the Amiga archive site (that it used to be). I could not find any atari emulator on xanth.cs.odu.edu... However, there used to be an apple][ emulator and root@xanth.cs.odu.edu DID receive a letter from apple.com :-( -- Signature follows. [Skip now] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott D. Yelich scott@[xanth.]cs.odu.edu [128.82.8.1] After he pushed me off the cliff, he asked me, as I fell, ``Why'd you jump?'' Administrator of: Game-Design requests to <game-design-request@cs.odu.edu> ODU/UNIX/BSD/X/C/ROOT/XANTH/CS/VSVN/ -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (10/19/90)
aiajms@castle.ed.ac.uk (-=Andy=-) writes: >[Medusa's] method of getting TOS is to go to an >ST and use an included utility called gettos. This has the effect of >copying the TOS from ROM into an image file. That does not constitute legal use of the TOS operating system. >This company is about to >market this product! I am quite sure they would not be so naive as to >market a utility of this sort without checking the legal circumstances >behind it!!! You're the one being naive. They certainly could go to market with a product without checking on its legality. Or, they could have checked, but decided the potential profit is worth the risk. >If the >emulator contains an image of TOS then it is illegal. It does, so it is. I think people should get this kind of elementary fact straight before commenting on Atari's position. I am tired of "I don't know anything about it, but here's my opinion" postings. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
david@doe.utoronto.ca (David Megginson) (10/19/90)
In article <40310@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Whitney) writes: >In article <6737@castle.ed.ac.uk> aiajms@castle.ed.ac.uk (-=Andy=-) writes: >>GNU do not port their stuff onto Apple because of the >>aggressive attitude they take to people emulating their products (NOT >>PIRACY WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT) and the law suits that follow. > >Nope. As I understand it, the GNU issue had _nothing_ to do with emulation. Emulating as in "copying the look and feel," I'd imagine. Certainly, Gnu does believe in free software (free from restrictions, not free in price), but their beef with Apple is that they have tried to keep other people from using the GUI concept at all, not that they have tried to keep people from pirating their own software. Most Gnu stuff is reverse-engineered from Unix tools, but none of it is stolen. If (to give a hardware example) Atari decided to run off and sue any micro supplier who sold PCs with a MIDI port built-in (an original selling point for the ST), the FSF might get upset. Atari has a right to protect its software, just like Apple does. I like free software and free movies, but I don't get upset because Cineplex keeps me from sneaking in. David Megginson -- //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / David Megginson david@doe.utoronto.ca / / Centre for Medieval Studies meggin@vm.epas.utoronto.ca / ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
hojo@cbnewsl.att.com (HC Johnson) (10/19/90)
In article <27583@usc.edu>, papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: > I am sorry but I have to concur with Atari's position. These emulators are > indeed a flagrant copyright violation, and the BBS sysops should be held > responsible and liable for their action of not policing the download > of software from their machines. > I think everyone is forgetting what's really happening. There is no problem with an Amiga Emulating an Atari. Its no different that a ST emulating a MAC or PC. If the Amiga Emulator simply read the original Atari TOS on a floppy (1.0) this would be just the same as PC_ditto booting a IBM DOS Disk. The subtlety lies in whether the ROMS are accessed (such as with Spectre) or copied to a different media (a floppy disk). It is this copying that is prevented by the Copywrite. If someone were to market a cartridge to hold the TOS ROMS then it would be both neat and leagle. Howard Johnson ATT BELL LABS att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott K Wood) (10/19/90)
>I think people should get this kind of elementary fact straight before >commenting on Atari's position. I am tired of "I don't know anything >about it, but here's my opinion" postings. > >============================================ >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. >reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt Regarding this entire thread of messages...Does it really matter what Atari's position is about the emulator? Whether the emulator is illegal or not doesn't change the fact that there are thousands of potential users of the emulator, and since there is no DEFINITIVE proof that it is illegal, those same users will most likely feel no guilt in using the emulator. As far as I am concerned, the program is a novelty, something to show you "ST friends" when they start bad-mouthing the Amiga. As far as usefullness: Why do Amiga users want to emulate an ST? There is NOTHING the ST can do that the Amiga can't do hundreds of times better. That's why you bought the Amiga, right? Scott BITNET: v092mgp5@ubmvs.bitnet INTERNET : v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu
dac@ukc.ac.uk (David Clear) (10/19/90)
Atari's position on this matter is correct. Although it may be considered
flattering for someone to emulate an ST on an Amiga (with all the "mine
is better than yours" type arguments around), the software copyright position
is clear - that software is illegal.
If you wrote a commercial piece of software and someone, without your
permission, ported this software to another machine would you not be
phoning your lawyer the instance you discovered it? Even worse, if your
software wasn't even ported - just binary copied and the target machine
hacked a bit so your software would work...
Whether or not there is a potential for loss of profit is not really the
issue. The issue is software copyright which is being breached. End of story.
Dave.
--
% cc life.c | David Clear dac@ukc.ac.uk +44 227 764000x7592
% a.out | Local Area Networks, Computing Laboratory,
Segmentation fault (core dumped) | University of Kent, Canterbury, England.
>>> Kernel R0M. His Mission: To rid the world of wobbly ZX-81 16K RAM packs. <<<swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (10/19/90)
In article <5799@harrier.ukc.ac.uk> dac@ukc.ac.uk (David Clear) writes: >If you wrote a commercial piece of software and someone, without your >permission, ported this software to another machine would you not be >phoning your lawyer the instance you discovered it? Even worse, if your >software wasn't even ported - just binary copied and the target machine >hacked a bit so your software would work... No, it doesn't matter, as long as the user has purchased the commercial software from the true owner of the copyright, or from someone else who got it legitimately (and didn't keep any illegal copies of it). There is no provision in copyright law saying that software may only be run on a particular machine. If I purchase a legal copy of TOS and decide I want to run it on an Amiga, Atari can do nothing about it, as long as I am not running it on any other machines and I am not distributing any copies of TOS to anyone else. Of *course* Atari's position is going to be that it is illegal. Nobody wants their machine to be successfully emulated by a competitor. But they can't really do anything to people who follow the rules, their whining to the contrary. -- _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM
gaudreau@juggler.East.Sun.COM (Joe Gaudreau - Sun BOS Software) (10/20/90)
In article <41568@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu: > Regarding this entire thread of messages...Does it really matter what >Atari's position is about the emulator? Yes, it does. >Whether the emulator is illegal >or not doesn't change the fact that there are thousands of potential Well... 1000's of potential uses is fine, but if you are breaking the law to do it, is that right? I can use a crowbar for many legit purposes but one B&E is more than enough. >users of the emulator, and since there is no DEFINITIVE proof that it is >illegal, Not yet anyway. I'm sure someone will get around to 'diffing' the code segments to see what they shall see. > those same users will most likely feel no guilt in using the >emulator. As far as I am concerned, the program is a novelty, something to >show you "ST friends" when they start bad-mouthing the Amiga. As far as I hope they feel guilty, I really do, even if it's a novelty. I have yet to bad mouth an Amiga, except their cost versus what I want a home machine for... :-) >usefullness: Why do Amiga users want to emulate an ST? There is NOTHING the >ST can do that the Amiga can't do hundreds of times better. That's why you >bought the Amiga, right? Well, I can think of a few things the St does *now* that the Amiga can't do (yet or never). There is a gadget called R/C aerochopper that is simply wonderful (heli *simulator*, 30 frame/sec animation, 3d, realtime). There *are* plans for it to be ported to Pc's and Mac's but that's it as far as I know... But this is silly and not at all to the point. The point is, as the saying goes, "does the end justify the means?" What do you think Apple would do if someone came out with cleanroom certified Mac ROM workalikes? They'ed go ape****. Believe it. Joe -=- -- /Joe-Gaudreau {ps-hacker juggler nice-guy add add} bind def Fone: (508)671-0461 INet: gaudreau@East.Sun.Com UUCP: sun!suneast!gaudreau Snail: Sun Microsystems Inc - BDC, 2 Federal St, Billerica, MA 01821 "Juggling, not just a way of life" The opinions I juggle may not be mine, but they aren't my employer's either.
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) (10/20/90)
I hope this isn't too hypothetical: Atari sells TOS ROMS; what would the legal
position be if someone sold an emulator that mounted genuine ROMS and used
them to mimic an ST? Would that be the same as Spectre? I suspect that a
large number of TOS 1.0 ROMS could be bought from individuals if there were
a demand for them.
Steve J.v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott K Wood) (10/20/90)
In article <5799@harrier.ukc.ac.uk>, dac@ukc.ac.uk (David Clear) writes... >Atari's position on this matter is correct. Although it may be considered >flattering for someone to emulate an ST on an Amiga (with all the "mine >is better than yours" type arguments around), the software copyright position > - that software is illegal. >Dave. I may have missed something in this discussion, but what is it about the Atari1 emulator that makes it so illegal? I honestly don't see any difference between the Atari1 emulator's method of emulation and the method used by the Transformer for IBM software. If I am incorrect in this assumption, please clarify what the difference, otherwise, I fail to see one. Scott BITNET : v092mgp5@ubvms.bitnet INTERNET : v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu
v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott K Wood) (10/20/90)
In article <2991@jaytee.East.Sun.COM>, gaudreau@juggler.East.Sun.COM (Joe Gaudreau - Sun BOS Software) writes... >In article <41568@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu: >> Regarding this entire thread of messages...Does it really matter what >>Atari's position is about the emulator? >Yes, it does. > Why does it matter? I honestly don't see what is going to be gained by prolonging this thread of messages. What will you do if it is proven illegal? No one but the author knows who wrote the program, so there certainly isn't a chance for prosecution. Beyond that, whether Atari thinks this product is illegal or not just doesn't make a difference. Sure we could all go into a long discussion about copyright violations and such, but I'm sure we are all familiar with them. If you want to discuss "Atari's position" post it in the Atari area, not the Amiga area. With nearly 300 messages a day in this area, I would rather read about Amigas than "Atari's position" on some harmless hack that isn't going to make a hell of a difference in the Amiga or ST world. Scott BITNET : v092mgp5@ubmvs.bitnet INTERNET : v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (10/20/90)
There is already a pirated version of AMAX with, yes, the Apple ROMs built
in; it emulates a Mac with NO hardware. And yes, Apple's going ape****...
--Rick Wrigley
fhwri@conncoll.bitnetedp367s@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Rik Harris) (10/22/90)
v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott K Wood) writes: >In article <2991@jaytee.East.Sun.COM>, gaudreau@juggler.East.Sun.COM (Joe Gaudreau - Sun BOS Software) writes... >>In article <41568@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v092mgp5@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu: >>> Regarding this entire thread of messages...Does it really matter what >>>Atari's position is about the emulator? >>Yes, it does. >> > Why does it matter? I honestly don't see what is going to be >gained by prolonging this thread of messages. What will you do if it is >proven illegal? No one but the author knows who wrote the program, so there >certainly isn't a chance for prosecution. Beyond that, whether Atari thinks >this product is illegal or not just doesn't make a difference. Sure we >could all go into a long discussion about copyright violations and such, >but I'm sure we are all familiar with them. If you want to discuss "Atari's >position" post it in the Atari area, not the Amiga area. I would expect that many of the people who are interested in the atari emulator (obviously some people, or no-one would be talking about it) would like to know whether they are going to have some lawyers knocking on their doors, and stealing their computers :-) besides, the atari newsgroups aren't all that much better than the amiga newsgroups. > With nearly 300 messages a day in this area, I would rather read about >Amigas than "Atari's position" on some harmless hack that isn't going to >make a hell of a difference in the Amiga or ST world. Then read about amigas, and ignore this subject, or better still, use the 'kill' key (apologies if you don't use a good newsreader). This is obviously why these groups should be split up. Stop whinging. If you want to see fewer messages here, then lobby harder for the group split-up. rik -- Rik Harris - edp367s@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au | Build a system that Faculty of Computing and Information Technology, | even a fool can use, Monash University, Caulfield Campus, Australia | and only a fool will (say that with your mouth full!) | want to use it.