TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu (10/23/90)
I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the
Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500.
As has been said before, the A500 blows the Classic away in terms
of color, multitasking, overall speed, and animation.
However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability
(the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup,
ease-of-use, quality of the display (the Classic has a high-quality
non-interlaced display, the A500 has a display that flickers
horribly), and quality of available software.
Given the above facts, I have to ask: which features are more
important to a consumer: a fast computer, or a more friendly and
useable computer? Obviously, for the average person that the
A500 and Classic are both tergeted at, the Classic is by far the
more appealing, because it is so much easier to setup and use for
anything other than games.
Unfortunately, unless Commodore starts making plans to include
AmigaOS 2.0 will ALL Amigas, including the A500, the Classic will
I'gform its own niche right in the middle of Commodore's strongest
market, because the Classic is so much easier to setup and use,
and has a higher-quality display and a hard drive.
Right now, by far the most damaging feature of the A500 is it's
*VERY* steep learning curve. In order to do anything at all with it,
you have to learn how to use the CLI. I know some people personally
who, in their first weeks with an Amiga, came very close to chucking
them out of the nearest window. With the Classic available, and the
reputation of the Amiga as a "game machine" or "toy", many people
probably will not buy an A500 in the first place. If the few that
do buy A500s end up selling them immediately, and buying a Classic,
then Commodore's reputation will be far worse than it is now.
The Classic also has advantages in that it is easier to setup and
use. This is important for the kind of people that both the Classic
and the A500 are aimed at. I went to a user's group meeting yesterday,
and at the end of the meeting, as some people were packing up their
systems to take them home, a couple of people mentioned how much of
a royal pain it is to unpack their Amiga systems and get them setup
again at home. With the Classic, you basically only have to plug
in the power cord, keyboard, and mouse, and you are done.
Let's compare two equally useable Classic and A500 systems. The
Classic seems to come with just about everything you would need,
including a hard drive, 1M of RAM, and monitor. The price for this
system is $1000.
Now let's put together a similar A500 system. We can use the A500P
system as a base. This system includes the A500, 1M of RAM, and a
monitor, for $1189. You still need a hard drive, so add $629 for the
A590. The resulting system costs $1818 -- almost twice as much as the
Classic -- and you still do not get a system with a GUI that is nearly
as easy-to-use or as powerful, and the display quality, well, sucks
compared to the display of the Classic. Sure, the A500 system is VERY
good for games, but what else is it good for? In order for the A500
is effectively compete against the Classic in anything but games, it
needs a hard drive and AmigaOS2.0.
The only reason that Commodore is not planning to include AmigaOS2.0
with any of the A500 systems is that they want to keep the A500
compatible with games. GAMES!!! By not planning to include AmigaOS2.0
with any of the A500s, Commodore is proving to the entire world that
their Amiga 500s are game systems!!
Due to the inherant advantages of the Classic, if Commodore does
not do anything about it, Apple will be able to form a nice, big
market niche right in the middle of what was Commodore's strongest
market. What can Commodore do about it? They can do the following:
(1) Discontinue all Amigas without hard drives, and start including
hard drives with all Amigas, including those A500s sold through the
mass-merchants. For the A500, remove the internal floppy drive and
put a 20M hard drive in its place.
(2) Discontinue all Amigas with less than 1M of RAM, and start
including 1M with all Amigas, including those aimed at the mass-
merchants. To satisfy the dealers, give them an A500 with 40M hard
drive, 880K floppy drive, AmigaOS2.0, AmigaVision, 1M of RAM,
and a detachable keyboard.
(3) Include AmigaOS2.0 with ALL Amigas, including the A500s sold
through the mass-merchants. For these A500s, strip AmigaOS2.0 down a
little, to remove those memory-cosuming features that most A500
buyers won't use anyway. Such features that can be removed (and
offered as an inexpensive upgrade option) include ARexx and
AmigaVision.
(4) To compete directly with the Classic, offer an A500 bundle
that consists of an A500 with 1M of RAM, 20M hard drive, AmigaOS2.0,
external floppy drive, and a monochrome multisync monitor.
-MB-cs472119@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs472119) (10/23/90)
I keep wanting to give you a chance, but you keep talking out your backside.
1) THE MAC CLASSIC DOES NOT NOT NOT come with a hard disk!
The literature says a HD is an OPTION.
2) You want to compare systems, so don't use the cost of a color monitor
when you build an amiga system to match the MAc plus.
$500 + $75 + $75 = $650
A500 A501 MONO
I used a magnavox composite monitor at first with my 500. It flickers
CONSIDERABLY less than any color monitor I've seen (in interlaced mode).
But, you're right about a couple of things.
1) We need a new chipset. So what. How many times do you think we should
bring that up??? We know it's being worked on right now.
2) 2.0 should be supported on the 500. I think it will be, but I have
heard conflicting reports from people who should be good sources.
3) The MAC is the best computer for you. Buy it, enjoy it.
Why put yourself through all of this?
-Larryes1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/23/90)
Rather than argue with the many fallacies in Marc Barrett's post, such as claiming that the Mac Classic comes standard with a hard drive, which it doesn't, or say that it costs $1,000 with HD, which it doesn't (Columbia's price is $1,171), I will simply point out one simple fact: No one will respect someone who finds it necessary to post to the net from a different account every time, just to make sure that people trying to kill your posts fail. Not only don't you put the word Apple or Mac in the subject, but this time you out did yourself: your full name didn't appear! BTW, for those people who ARE interested in this subject, STILL. A valid point is that the A500 can allow users to be introduced to just about ANY field of computing. Perhaps we don't have an excellent database or spreadsheet, but we have a little bit of everything, including color and yes, we have good games. That is something I'd look for in a computer if I am buying a low-end machine. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (10/23/90)
In article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu> TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu writes: > > I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the >Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500. .... > -MB- WARNING: There is an evil plot afoot to make people post so many flames to the c.s.a. group that it will be permanently cancelled by many sites, thereby short-circuiting the efforts there to break up the group before the volume gets completely out of hand. Do NOT repeat NOT respond to the post. It purposely makes errors (the hard drive is an option on the Classic, but you did that on purpose) so that at least five dozen people will respond to them. It is lengthy, so that everybody will have something to respond to. It is insidious, and dangerous, and there will be seemingly genuine plants that will respond to the points raised here. Do not respond to these either. Ignore all of them, or we will have THE THREAD FROM HELL! These subtle, nefarious forces must be vanquished. The kill file is our only weapon. Fire at will! Ok, now that I have your attention, note that this has already all been hashed over several times before. Let's please not go through it all over again (it is probably too late, I know). -Dan Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240 Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (10/23/90)
You made a big mistake; the McClassic comes with ONE floppy and ONE meg of
RAM for $1000; a hard drive and another meg (making it at least a usable
machine) bring the cost up to about $1500 list, which is about what you'd
pay for a 2 meg HD A500.
I'm the first to agree that AmigaDOS has a steep learning curve, but I
FAR prefer a machine with the extendable power of the Shell to one that
in the words of a friend of mine, insults the intelligence of the user.
BTW: The Mac screen IS interlaced; its frequency is 90 Hz. That way, it
doesn't APPEAR to flicker. Great, but useless for video. Broadcast TV,
which most people watch from time to time, is NTSC interlace, just like
Amiga 640 * 400...
--Rick Wrigley
fhwri@conncoll.bitnetes1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/23/90)
In article <34316@nigel.ee.udel.edu> fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes: >You made a big mistake; the McClassic comes with ONE floppy and ONE meg of >RAM for $1000; a hard drive and another meg (making it at least a usable >machine) bring the cost up to about $1500 list, which is about what you'd >pay for a 2 meg HD A500. > Why is it that so many people here are unable to distinguish the concepts of list price and selling price? The unfortunate thing is that you, literally, stated things correctly. It costs $1,500 list for the Mac Classic 2MB/40MB and $1,500 street price for the equivalent Amiga (including color monitor). The $1,500 classic sells for $1,171 on educational here at Columbia. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (10/23/90)
In article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu> TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu writes: ...Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah... [...vintage Marc Barrett rantings, stoopid comparisons, etc. deleted...] > > > -MB- Note this header, which I saved from Marc's posting: >Article: 54165 of comp.sys.amiga >Path: convex!texsun!newstop!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!udel!mmdf >From: TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ???? >Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga >Subject: Comments about the Classic. >Message-ID: <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu> >Date: 23 Oct 90 01:12:39 GMT >Sender: mmdf@ee.udel.edu >Lines: 96 Now I have been quite content and happy to ignore Marc's ignorant postings, which normally I would flame repeatedly. The reason is because of this line in my KILL file: /Marc Barrett/h:j This line has, up till now, allowed me to go on blithely enjoying reading comp.sys.amiga without the need to respond to Marc's pathetic whining. I have noted with particular relish certain days when at least ten of Marc's postings were eliminated by my KILL file. This left me with a wonderful feeling of accomplishment ;^). Now it is becoming obvious that in order to KILL marc's postings, I am going to have to KILL all postings from iastate. If you are a student at iastate who is *not* Marc Barrett, and this makes you mad, then I suggest you talk to Marc about it. He is jumping accounts on purpose in order to keep our KILL files from recognising his account. If he sends me personal email detailing a keyword which he will include in all posts to this group, so that I can KILL his posts, then I will take iastate out of my KILL file. Here is how to get rid of all iastate posts: /iastate/h:j If he keeps jumping accounts so that even this doesn't work, then I will continue to flame him. If you don't want to read my flames, then you can include this line in your kill file: /YAGMBF/h:j I will include this as a keyword in any MBFlame I post here. -- _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (10/24/90)
In article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu> Marc Barrett writes: > The only reason that Commodore is not planning to include AmigaOS2.0 >with any of the A500 systems is that they want to keep the A500 >compatible with games. Where do you get your FACTS, man? Commodore has NOT said that 2.0 won't be included with the A500. Why are you spreading damaging rumors and calling them facts? You must love all the abuse you get in this newsgroup. Why else would you keep posting obnoxious rumors and lies? Dan (no relation!) //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Department of Computer Science Johns Hopkins University | | INTERNET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | | COMPUSERVE: >internet:barrett@cs.jhu.edu | UUCP: barrett@jhunix.UUCP | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) (10/24/90)
On 23 Oct 90 01:12:39 GMT you said: > Here we go again. Let's see how many wrong things I can point out this time. > I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the >Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500. > > As has been said before, the A500 blows the Classic away in terms >of color, multitasking, overall speed, and animation. > > However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability >(the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup, >ease-of-use, quality of the display (the Classic has a high-quality >non-interlaced display, the A500 has a display that flickers >horribly), and quality of available software. Ok. There are two models of the Classic. One of them HAS the HD and one doesn't. I tend to believe that the $999 model doesn't. The one with the HD will be more costly. It will probably more close to the cost of an Amiga 500 with an HD. As far as the monitor is concerned, you can get the new denise and have a non-interlaced Amiga 500. You can then CHOOSE the multisync that suits you rather than having to be stuck with little B/W display offered by the Classic. > Given the above facts, I have to ask: which features are more >important to a consumer: a fast computer, or a more friendly and >useable computer? Obviously, for the average person that the >A500 and Classic are both tergeted at, the Classic is by far the >more appealing, because it is so much easier to setup and use for >anything other than games. I disagree. I got my 500 up and running in 20-30 minutes when I bought my 500 in '88. Yes, I had to learn CLI, but the 1.2 GUI handled me until then. With 2.0 CLI (or Shell as it's now called) isn't necessarily needed. > > Unfortunately, unless Commodore starts making plans to include >AmigaOS 2.0 will ALL Amigas, including the A500, the Classic will >I'gform its own niche right in the middle of Commodore's strongest >market, because the Classic is so much easier to setup and use, >and has a higher-quality display and a hard drive. They do plan on including it. On ALL Amigas. Yes, even the 512k machines. When it's available. The reason for the questionable date of 2.0 for the 500 comes from the fact that Commodore (and the dealers) just don't want to be SWAMPED with upgrades on the first day of release. That has to be at least part of the reason. Of course, this is speculative. One thing that ISN'T is that Commodore WILL support upgrades of 2.0 on ALL Amigas. Even the 1000s of you have enough memory (so I have heard about the 1000s). > Right now, by far the most damaging feature of the A500 is it's >*VERY* steep learning curve. In order to do anything at all with it, >you have to learn how to use the CLI. I know some people personally >who, in their first weeks with an Amiga, came very close to chucking >them out of the nearest window. With the Classic available, and the >reputation of the Amiga as a "game machine" or "toy", many people >probably will not buy an A500 in the first place. If the few that >do buy A500s end up selling them immediately, and buying a Classic, >then Commodore's reputation will be far worse than it is now. Yes, I agree that the learning curve of the Amiga is a bit more steep than the Mac. But for that matter then the IBM is quite a bit more than either the Amiga or the Mac. Yet more people keep buying IBMs than Amiga OR MAC. > The Classic also has advantages in that it is easier to setup and >use. This is important for the kind of people that both the Classic >and the A500 are aimed at. I went to a user's group meeting yesterday, >and at the end of the meeting, as some people were packing up their >systems to take them home, a couple of people mentioned how much of >a royal pain it is to unpack their Amiga systems and get them setup >again at home. With the Classic, you basically only have to plug >in the power cord, keyboard, and mouse, and you are done. If you want a pack-up computer, you buy a Laptop. > > Let's compare two equally useable Classic and A500 systems. The >Classic seems to come with just about everything you would need, >including a hard drive, 1M of RAM, and monitor. The price for this >system is $1000. You had better read your literature again. I don't think the $1000 gets you an HD. It may get you a SuperDrive and 1 meg, but I seriously doubt an HD. I have the literature for the Classic and it mentions two models. One with an HD and one without. Common sense dictates that the one without will be the less expensive. And the $999 price tag is their lowest priced Mac. So it must be devoid of an HD. > Now let's put together a similar A500 system. We can use the A500P >system as a base. This system includes the A500, 1M of RAM, and a >monitor, for $1189. You still need a hard drive, so add $629 for the >A590. The resulting system costs $1818 -- almost twice as much as the >Classic -- and you still do not get a system with a GUI that is nearly >as easy-to-use or as powerful, and the display quality, well, sucks >compared to the display of the Classic. Sure, the A500 system is VERY >good for games, but what else is it good for? In order for the A500 >is effectively compete against the Classic in anything but games, it >needs a hard drive and AmigaOS2.0. Since the HD issue is no longer an issue the $1189 price tag is all that matters. So it's $189 (by your costs which I question) more than a Classic. What do you get for that? An Amiga with 1 meg of memory, Floppy drive, and color monitor. Also they are shipping AmigaVision with CPUs now (for some undetermined amount of time). What else can you do with an Amiga 500 beside games? Ok... How about Ray-tracing (yes on 1 meg), word processing, painting, titling, genlocking, DCTV, Ham-e, music (internal or external), and the list goes on.... > The only reason that Commodore is not planning to include AmigaOS2.0 >with any of the A500 systems is that they want to keep the A500 >compatible with games. GAMES!!! By not planning to include AmigaOS2.0 >with any of the A500s, Commodore is proving to the entire world that >their Amiga 500s are game systems!! Sorry, here you are completely wrong. 2.0 will be available for ALL Amigas. Once 2.0 has shipped as an upgrade then Commodore should include it on all successive machines. 1.3 should then be a thing of the past. > Due to the inherant advantages of the Classic, if Commodore does >not do anything about it, Apple will be able to form a nice, big >market niche right in the middle of what was Commodore's strongest >market. What can Commodore do about it? They can do the following: > > (1) Discontinue all Amigas without hard drives, and start including >hard drives with all Amigas, including those A500s sold through the >mass-merchants. For the A500, remove the internal floppy drive and >put a 20M hard drive in its place. This isn't necessary. Remember the Classic comes in 2 models. > (2) Discontinue all Amigas with less than 1M of RAM, and start >including 1M with all Amigas, including those aimed at the mass- >merchants. To satisfy the dealers, give them an A500 with 40M hard >drive, 880K floppy drive, AmigaOS2.0, AmigaVision, 1M of RAM, >and a detachable keyboard. I agree that 1 meg should be the minimum memory configuration. The Fatter agnus should facilitate this. As I have said, Commodore will provide 2.0 for ALL Amigas as Commodore has already state this. > (3) Include AmigaOS2.0 with ALL Amigas, including the A500s sold >through the mass-merchants. For these A500s, strip AmigaOS2.0 down a >little, to remove those memory-cosuming features that most A500 >buyers won't use anyway. Such features that can be removed (and >offered as an inexpensive upgrade option) include ARexx and >AmigaVision. The only thing that consumes ram on 2.0 is the ROM. Everything else is user defineable. Meaning that you can take up as much or as little ram as possible with your system configuration and the programs you run. One other thing that I have noticed. An Amiga with 1 meg of RAM goes MUCH MUCH further than a Mac with 1 meg. > (4) To compete directly with the Classic, offer an A500 bundle >that consists of an A500 with 1M of RAM, 20M hard drive, AmigaOS2.0, >external floppy drive, and a monochrome multisync monitor. One thing I do agree with is an inexpensive 40 meg HD upgrade for the 500. That product is necessary. The A590 with it's 20 meg is just too small. Why not drop that 20 meg out of there and replace it with a 40 meg. If Commodore could produce a machine with an 20 (or 40 meg) HD, 1 meg, 880k floppy and monitor for $1000-$1200 then that would blow the Classic away. Otherwise, I'd say the Amiga 500 still holds enough over the Classic to make the keep it's lead. > > -MB- As usual MB didn't read all of his literature and jumps to conclusions. There are going to be 2 Classic models. One with an HD and one without. It is only obvious that the one without will be the least costly (i.e. $999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================= ||NeXT- (nekst) N. The only PC to have sold less than 10,000 units and || || not be considered a flop. || ||------------------------------------------/ /------------------------|| ||---Brian Wright | / / || ||---s36666wb@etsuacad.etsu.edu | \ \/ / Only Amiga || ||---Commercial Artist and Amigaphile| \/\/ Makes It Possible!! || =======================================================================
perley@caesar (Donald P Perley) (10/24/90)
In article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu>, TAAB5@ccvax writes: > > I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the >Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500. > > However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability >(the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup, I have some apple literature on the new models in front of me. It doesn't have a full spec sheet, but there is no mention of a hard drive on the $999 classic. They have a classic with hard drive and 2 meg memory for $1499. >ease-of-use, quality of the display (the Classic has a high-quality >non-interlaced display, the A500 has a display that flickers >horribly), Ah, the classic mac (as opposed to mac classic) display quality scam. If you put a 9 inch display on a 500 with a non-interlace screen it will look pretty good too, with no flicker. You get nice looking characters.... just not enough of them on the screen. > Let's compare two equally useable Classic and A500 systems. The >Classic seems to come with just about everything you would need, >including a hard drive, 1M of RAM, and monitor. The price for this >system is $1000. $1499, really. Now how much more is it with 640x400 display? Oh, you don't like flicker... ok, how much is for a 640x200 display? how about color? You have told us repeatedly that the amiga will die if all models don't have bizillion colors, but the mac is ok with just B&W? > > (1) Discontinue all Amigas without hard drives, and start including >hard drives with all Amigas, including those A500s sold through the >mass-merchants. For the A500, remove the internal floppy drive and >put a 20M hard drive in its place. How are people going to buy software if there is no floppy drive? I suppose its possible that the basic classic ($999 version) has a hard drive, but one would think they would mention it in the literature. (The piece I have is titled "INTRO NEWS") -don perley perley@trub.crd.ge.com
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (10/24/90)
In article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu> TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu writes: > > I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the >Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500. Indeed. I suppose you would. > (4) To compete directly with the Classic, offer an A500 bundle >that consists of an A500 with 1M of RAM, 20M hard drive, AmigaOS2.0, >external floppy drive, and a monochrome multisync monitor. Or, better yet, CBM could purchase all the Classics they could possibly buy (making a wise purchase, I-MB-SO), tape the A500 motherboard to the chassis, make all the connections, and sell it for $500 bucks less than the Classic. Will the net give me permission to compare -MB- to a ruptured appendix? It'd be more relevant, and much more entertaining. > > -MB- Dave Hopper | /// Yesterday, CS. | Academic Info Resources | /// Today, Anthropology. | Mac & UNIX Consultant bard@jessica. | \\\/// | "Somebody get me a job Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Tomorrow... bleeding ulcers. | with a computer I LIKE"
perley@caesar (Donald P Perley) (10/25/90)
In article <1990Oct23.141531.24732@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, es1@cunixb (Ethan Solomita) writes: >In article <34316@nigel.ee.udel.edu> fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes: >>You made a big mistake; the McClassic comes with ONE floppy and ONE meg of >>RAM for $1000; a hard drive and another meg (making it at least a usable >>machine) bring the cost up to about $1500 list, which is about what you'd >>pay for a 2 meg HD A500. >> > Why is it that so many people here are unable to >distinguish the concepts of list price and selling price? > The $1,500 classic sells for $1,171 on educational here >at Columbia. I would rephrase that... Why is it that so many people here are unable to distinguish the concepts of educational price and "normal" selling price? Great, you are a student (or faculty).. Apple will give you a deal.. Please don't act like that is a price that anyone can get. Based on local conditions, Amigas are easier to get a discount on than Macs. I imagine even more so if the Mac is a new model. For ME, and a lot of other people, comparing a moderately discounted amiga price to Mac's list price is the realistic thing to do. I suppose I could get some student to buy one for me, but then I might as well use only pirated software too. I guess I'm just stuck in the middle. I don't qualify for an educational discount. Even though I make a significant amount of money using my home computer, I can't adequately certify that I would lose my job without it, so I don't get any tax breaks from it either. -don perley perley@trub.crd.ge.com
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (10/25/90)
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
< Why is it that so many people here are unable to
< distinguish the concepts of list price and selling price?
Probably for the same reason that so many people are unable to
distinguish between street prices and educational discounts.
< The unfortunate thing is that you, literally, stated things
< correctly. It costs $1,500 list for the Mac Classic 2MB/40MB and
< $1,500 street price for the equivalent Amiga (including color
< monitor). The $1,500 classic sells for $1,171 on educational here
< at Columbia.
< -- Ethan
This is not a flame. I just wish people would realize that many
of us do not qualify for educational discounts. Therefore, $1,171
is a meaningless comparison value for me.
--
Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | /--\
cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | | | "This is as real as
...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | | \ | your so-called 'Life' gets"
The Home of the Killer Smiley | \--X__es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/25/90)
In article <44972@sequent.UUCP> cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) writes: >es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >< Why is it that so many people here are unable to >< distinguish the concepts of list price and selling price? > >Probably for the same reason that so many people are unable to >distinguish between street prices and educational discounts. > My point was that in comparisons one kind of price should be used, not list and educ or list and street, which is so often done by certain 'mac oriented' parties. 8) To defend use of educational prices: 1) probably over 50% of the readers here have access to educational discounts. 2) in general the difference between the two educational prices bears some resemblance to the difference between the two street prices, although not always. 3) In general Mac educational prices are slightly lower than street prices on Mac IIs and slightly higher on Mac Classics. The store in question is Computer Era, the largest Mac dealer in the country. Also, educational Amiga prices can be given exactly. "street price" is a vague term which depends on who you ask and who that person has talked to, kinda like "multitasking". 8) -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) (10/25/90)
I would like to make a new twist in this line of thought. Lets compare the Mac Classic with A C64 running Geos. I will Say the Mac is a bit faster however the price/preformance of the C64 still beats it. Mac Classic $800 -(A mediating value) C64 with Geos and a 3 1/2'' Drive will cost around $250. The C64 also gives you more expansion with the Cartridge and User Ports. You also cannot discount the fact that the C64 comes ready with Basic!!! Paul Amiga@walt.utexas.edu .....Paul...... I like boats, their healthier than valium. Cost more tho.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/25/90)
In article <1990Oct23.141531.24732@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > Why is it that so many people here are unable to > distinguish the concepts of list price and selling price? Because they're trying to do a level comparison, instead of comparing apples to oranges like you. > It costs $1,500 list for the Mac Classic 2MB/40MB and > $1,500 street price for the equivalent Amiga (including color > monitor). The $1,500 classic sells for $1,171 on educational here And what's the educational price for the Amiga 500? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
wuethri@gorgo.ifi.unizh.ch (Charles Wuethrich) (10/25/90)
In article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu> TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu writes: > > However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability >(the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup, >ease-of-use, quality of the display (the Classic has a high-quality >non-interlaced display, the A500 has a display that flickers >horribly), and quality of available software. > -MB- I, for instance, particularly appreciate the HUGE display and its TREMENDOUS resolution. It makes you feel close to the machine's viewpoint (at least phisically). :-) :-) :-) :-) Charles -- Charles Wuethrich, Dept. of Computer Science | wuethri@ifi.unizh.ch Univ. of Zurich, 8057 Zurich-Irchel, Switzerland | k114910@czhrzu1a.bitnet
md41@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Marcus Dolengo) (10/26/90)
In article <38699@ut-emx.uucp> amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) writes: >I would like to make a new twist in this line of thought. Lets compare >the Mac Classic with A C64 running Geos. I will Say the Mac is a bit >faster however the price/preformance of the C64 still beats it. > >Mac Classic $800 -(A mediating value) > >C64 with Geos and a 3 1/2'' Drive will cost around $250. Problem is Geos comes on 5 1/4 " disks :( however REU's are really cool..... nice ram disks.... > >The C64 also gives you more expansion with the Cartridge and User Ports. >You also cannot discount the fact that the C64 comes ready with However, there are accelerator catridges, accelerating the 64 to 4Mhtz.... supposed to speed things up REALLLY well, faster than an 4mhtz 8088 computer <supposedly...shrug> > Paul > > >Amiga@walt.utexas.edu .....Paul...... > >I like boats, their healthier than valium. > Cost more tho. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o o | This Space For Rent Only Amiga!! // << md41@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu >> | Amerikkka's Most Wanted \\ // /> <\ | \X/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think out actions _show_ what's in our hearts." Hobbes Who's the Mack...
md41@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Marcus Dolengo) (10/26/90)
All this talk about the Amiga's flicker, when yesterday I went to a computer room at columbia <@ IAP btw> where there were alot of macs being used <mac IIci s i think, B&W display though> and I noticed quite a few were flickering show- ing normal ordinary text.... although I was 15 feet away, I thought it was very bad and strange coonsideing MB's ranting about how "clear the mac display is" as is compared to the A500.... btw when you wanna compare the A500 to the mac + wouldnt it be fair to use a B&W monitor for the Amiga? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o o | This Space For Rent Only Amiga!! // << md41@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu >> | Amerikkka's Most Wanted \\ // /> <\ | \X/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think out actions _show_ what's in our hearts." Hobbes Who's the Mack...
cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Anubis) (10/26/90)
I've got a question that I just know is going to generate lots of 'What a moron you are' messages...This is for you A3000 users... I have an Amiga 3000 and a 1950 monitor. Why is it that I can't fine tune the pixel jittering out of Superhires Interlace mode? Not Interlace mode, mind you...Superhires Interlace. Is this because this is intended for monochrome use only? Thanks -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=That is not dead which may eternal lie-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= * Christoper Roth * "Machines have no * InterNet : cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu * Conscience..." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=Yet with strange eons even death may die-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (10/26/90)
TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu -MB- writes:
MB> However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability
MB> (the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup,
MB> ease-of-use,
[...]
MB> The Classic is much easier to setup and use for
[...]
MB> because the Classic is so much easier to setup and use,
[...]
MB> The Classic also has advantages in that it is easier to setup and
MB> use.
[I wonder what Marc is trying to tell us :-)]
I am reminded of a quote I saw once {sorry I lost the author's name, it
might have been Mark Twain?}
"Make something so simple that even a fool can use it, and only a fool would
want to use it"
Think about it.
--
John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email
sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more.
A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nashfhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (10/29/90)
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From: Donald P Perley <perley@caesar>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Comments about the Classic.
Message-Id: <13059@crdgw1.crd.ge.com>
Date: 24 Oct 90 17:43:17 GMT
Organization: GE Corp. R & D, Schenectady, NY 12345
To: amiga-relay@udel.edu
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Status: O
In article <1990Oct23.141531.24732@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, es1@cunixb (
Solomita) writes:
>In article <34316@nigel.ee.udel.edu> fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.
writes:
>>You made a big mistake; the McClassic comes with ONE floppy and ONE me
>>RAM for $1000; a hard drive and another meg (making it at least a usab
>>machine) bring the cost up to about $1500 list, which is about what yo
>>pay for a 2 meg HD A500.
>>
> Why is it that so many people here are unable to
>distinguish the concepts of list price and selling price?
> The $1,500 classic sells for $1,171 on educational here
>at Columbia.
I would rephrase that... Why is it that so many people here are unable
to distinguish the concepts of educational price and "normal" selling
price?
Great, you are a student (or faculty).. Apple will give you a deal..
Please don't act like that is a price that anyone can get.
Based on local conditions, Amigas are easier to get a discount on than
Macs. I imagine even more so if the Mac is a new model. For ME, and
a lot of other people, comparing a moderately discounted amiga price to
Mac's list price is the realistic thing to do.
I suppose I could get some student to buy one for me, but then I might a
well use only pirated software too.
I guess I'm just stuck in the middle. I don't qualify for an
educational discount. Even though I make a significant amount of money
using my home computer, I can't adequately certify that I would lose
my job without it, so I don't get any tax breaks from it either.
-don perley
perley@trub.crd.ge.com
You'd probably be better off to buy an A500 with a hard drive (like GVP's)
and extra RAM (GVP's will take up to 8 megs) and then buy A-MAX than to buy
a Mac Classic. The Amiga would cost roughly $400-500 more, (the educational
discount for an A500 with external drive and monitor is $799!) but you'd
be able to run Mac AND Amiga software. You'd also be able to, for another
$499, run all IBM software with the Pulsar board. Forget the Macccc(oops...stuck
--Rick Wrigley
fhwri@conncoll.bitnetken@cbmvax.commodore.com (Ken Farinsky - CATS) (10/29/90)
In article <25128@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: > >I have an Amiga 3000 and a 1950 monitor. Why is it that I can't fine >tune the pixel jittering out of Superhires Interlace mode? Not >Interlace mode, mind you...Superhires Interlace. Is this because this >is intended for monochrome use only? The display enhancer on the A3000 does not work with superhires or productivity modes. You must disable the display enhancer in these modes. -- -- Ken Farinsky - CATS - (215) 431-9421 - Commodore Business Machines uucp: ken@cbmvax.commodore.com or ...{uunet,rutgers}!cbmvax!ken bix: kfarinsky
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (10/30/90)
In article <15447@cbmvax.commodore.com> ken@cbmvax.commodore.com (Ken Farinsky - CATS) writes: >In article <25128@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: >> >>I have an Amiga 3000 and a 1950 monitor. Why is it that I can't fine >>tune the pixel jittering out of Superhires Interlace mode? Not >>Interlace mode, mind you...Superhires Interlace. Is this because this >>is intended for monochrome use only? > >The display enhancer on the A3000 does not work with superhires or >productivity modes. You must disable the display enhancer in these >modes. >-- >-- >Ken Farinsky - CATS - (215) 431-9421 - Commodore Business Machines >uucp: ken@cbmvax.commodore.com or ...{uunet,rutgers}!cbmvax!ken >bix: kfarinsky Not quite right but close! The display enhancer will AUTOMATICALLY detect the Productivity modes and bypass them to the monitor connected to the 31Khz video port. The user must manually toggle the bypass switch on the back of the A3000 to do the same thing when in the Superhires modes. No the display enhancer does not enhace or de-interlace either the productivity-interlaced or superhires-interlace modes because it would require twice as much video memory and add GREATLY to the cost of the machine. Also, when you are in these modes you do releize that you have only four colors to chose from and your system bandwidth (DMA, etc.) is greatly increased - so I prefer to not use these modes. Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
rwashbur@bambam.UUCP (Bob Washburne) (11/02/90)
From article <34248@nigel.ee.udel.edu>, by TAAB5@ccvax.iastate.edu: > > I would like to compare the recently-introduced MAC Classic to the > Amiga model that comes closest to matching it in price, the Amiga 500. > > As has been said before, the A500 blows the Classic away in terms > of color, multitasking, overall speed, and animation. > > However, the Classic blows the A500 away in overall useability > (the Classic has a hard drive, the A500 does not), ease-of-setup, > ease-of-use, quality of the display (the Classic has a high-quality > non-interlaced display, the A500 has a display that flickers > horribly), and quality of available software. > > Given the above facts, I have to ask: which features are more > important to a consumer: a fast computer, or a more friendly and > useable computer? Obviously, for the average person that the > A500 and Classic are both tergeted at, the Classic is by far the > more appealing, because it is so much easier to setup and use for > anything other than games. > > -MB- As a person who has had all of the major pc's foisted upon himself I feel qualified to add a flame to this analysis. While I can agree that the mac has a far better display and availability of DTP software, I dissagree that it is neccessarily easier to use and strongly disagree that is is easier to set up. I hve been placed in the position of being told "Here is the computer the last group bought. See if you can't get it to work. There may be some documentation floating around here somewhere." My backround has been with APL and PRIMOS programming, no systems administration or operator experiance. My first experiance was with an IBM (true blue) PC/AT. It had a hard disk with the OS already installed and I found that "setting it up" was little more than cleaning up directories and making sence of what was on it. There were no drivers to worry about, no special preferences or control pannels to pour over. Neither was there any consistancy between programs as to how they should be run. And the one time I attempted some system programming to create a special DMA dump from disk, I thought I would go insane trying to understand MS/DOS internals. The project never saw the first line of code. Bottom line was that the software was all professional and consistant WITHIN each program, no setup was requires other than possibly copying down to the hard drive, but I did have to learn a new OS command set. My second experiance was with an Amiga 2000 which I bought for myself. The documentation was sketchy at best, but the only setup appeared to be making a backup of the system (1.2) disk. I don't recall ever having to use the CLI for any system function. Prefferences and printer setup was all available and straight forward from the workbenck. I did play with the CLI just to poke around the system and compare it to MS/DOS, but that was my own fault. This experiance was repeated last month when I helped a paster set up his new A500. I was able to configure his system and set up his word processor all through the workbench. Bottom line was a very simple setup, at least as easy as the PC/AT. No OS commands to learn, but a new concept of mice and windows to get used to. No hard disk, but the system seemed to know which disk it needed and told me to swap them at the times I would expect. Now that I have all this pc experiance, I get a new job and the office has inherited a gaggle of Mac Plus' from the previous occupents (I'm on the sales support staff and the turnover of an entire office staff is common). There were even manuals, of sorts, and I was tasked with bringing them to life. The first thing I found was that the docs were next to useless; they happily showed you how to point, click, and drag, butt always seemed to assume you had a system which was already set up. True, I probably didn't have the right manual. So I tried to do an install myself. You will have to imagine the confusion. There were installer scripts, but they kept complaining that they couldn't install on the disk I had booted from, there wasn't enough disk space, or other errors I have since blocked from memory. The Mac Plus only has one floppy drive, like the Amiga, no hard drive. The Mac was also thoughtfull enough to tell me when it needed a different disk. But the Mac does an unbelieveable disk shuffle. Instaed of the single swap I had grown use to on the PC/AT and AMI, five or more swaps were common. I remember one sesion were I had to sit for over forty-five minutes constantly swapping disks as the machine would take a teaspoon of data from each. It was not a pretty sight. Then there were the matter of drivers. Some needed only to be placed in the system directory (Imagewriter), others had to have an install script run (LaserWriter) and no clue as to which were which. Bottom line is that there were a far greater number of inconsistancies in the Mac setup than either the AT or AMIGA. The base machine was almost unusable. Since every new device, font, or special program had to have something in the system folder as soon as the system disk filled up you could no longer add software or devises. The only solution was to buy a hard disk, something not required by AT or AMIGA. Then there was the problem of printing on the ImageWriter. A document on the PC or AMI prints the same on any printer, adjusting to its resulution and features. Not so the Mac. Every printing mode on the IW created a different size document, and none of them was the size implied by the screen. The only solution was to buy a LaserWriter to get the proper size printed. So, the only way to get a user friendly Mac (at least to the same level as a A500) was to buy a hard disk and laser writer and then have someone who somehow already knew Macs to set it up for you. I wasn't impressed. What do I use? The Mac has much better DTP software available and I use it for that. Anything else I use my Amiga. But I don't kid myself about "user friendly" ledgons. Flame all you like. These were my experiances and I see little improvement since then. Bob Washburne Evans & Sutherland (717) 564-9714 rwashbur@dsd.es.com The above oppinions represent on that of the author and any other Right Thinking individual who reads them. My boss is not responcible.