xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/28/90)
There's a LOT of this, PLEASE read it ALL before posting responses.
BOILERPLATE RANTING - you've seen the "why", here's just the "what":
THIS IS _NOT_ THE TIME TO VOTE (though I will accept proxies).
PLEASE NOTE AND RESPECT THE FOLLOWUP-TO LINE.
PLEASE USE THIS THREAD SUBJECT WHEN RESPONDING.
PLEASE BE PATIENT. Going public 1 Nov 1990, and NOT before.
Thanks to those who have already emailed/posted many excellent
suggestions. The rest of you too. ;-)
PLEASE EMAIL suggestions to me, post also if of general interest.
LITTLE TIN DICTATOR MODE: sometimes _I_ decide, when that's the only way.
YOUR SITE IS NOT THE UNIVERSE! Other sites REQUIRE a split! COOPERATE!
NEW RANTS:
Subgroups are based on posting volume, not quality. Please don't waste
your time and mine telling me group X doesn't deserve to exist because
"it's junk". I know it's junk! That's exactly why i want to put it
somewhere most of the subscribers can avoid it! The volume _won't_ go
away by itself, wish though you may, inveigh though you do.
I should have put this in the first proposal; live and learn. Please
catch up on the group before responding, to be sure you're answering the
most recent revision! A week after the first revision, I'm still getting
comments on revision zero. Sigh.
END RANT MODE.
To simplify things, a list of the proposed groups with a brief
description is first, and the extensive discussion follows.
PROPOSAL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
comp.sys.amiga.misc
Replaces c.s.a; general talk group.
comp.sys.amiga.announce
Moderated: FF-disks, meetings, new products, product updates, shareware
releases, uploads to archives, bug reports, etc.
comp.sys.amiga.reviews
Moderated, archived: where to put your formally written up impressions
of new stuff: hardware and freeware, shareware, or commercial serious
and game software.
comp.sys.amiga.introduction
Frequently asked questions, how to use the groups, and other standard
and slow expiring postings, also new users' questions and the answers to
them from sympathetic gurus go here.
comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Hardware developers', hobbiests', and users' shop talk and assistance
forum.
comp.sys.amiga.programmer
(Renames .tech) Software developers' and programming hobbiests' shop
talk and assistance forum.
comp.sys.amiga.games
Talking about buying and playing games; archival quality games reviews
go to .reviews, but discussions go on here; "used games forsale" ads go
to .market.
comp.sys.amiga.multimedia
Graphics, video, music, speech, and multimedia combinations.
comp.sys.amiga.applications
The rest of the applications software discussions: business
productivity, desk top publishing, personal finance, fonts, printer
drivers, word processing, utilities, hacks, etc. Commercial, shareware
and freeware non-games, non-multimedia software applications talk. How
to use, how to interface, and so on.
comp.sys.amiga.market
Talk about and personal ads about buying and selling stuff for the
Amiga. Where to find, who to buy from, who to avoid, good prices,
product ratings.
comp.sys.amiga.emulations
Discussions of the several hardware and software emulations of other
computers (Mac, IBM-PC, Atari, C64, Apple 2 series, ...) that run on/in
(software/hardware emulations, respectively) the Amiga.
comp.sys.amiga.influence
All the "here's what the other folks are doing and how the Amiga
compares" postings; benchmarks; discussions of future goals for the
Amiga, rumors, general "do it better" ranting.
comp.sys.amiga.datacomm
Terminal emulators, networking, using and passing archives, downloading
and uploading, archive site pointers, general machine to machine stuff.
comp.unix.amiga
Amiga Minix and Unix SYSV4 and successors, all aspects.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSSION
1) Changes from last proposal.
------------------------------
Many of the descriptions got cleaned up.
In response to overwhelming demand, it is now comp.unix.amiga.
There was a lot of recent support for .telecomm, it got back in as
.datacomm, a name that describes the archiving part of the contents a
little better, while still evoking the .telecomm idea as well.
With the help of a thesaurus, .compare is now .influence, a name that
better captures the .futures and the .ranting aspects of the group.
All Unix discussion, including the stuff that might have ended up in
.tech, is now in comp.unix.amiga; comments? If the existing product
takes off, that group can be split in turn. I tossed Minix in there too;
comments?
2) Some chat about the proposed groups and their names and placement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
comp.sys.amiga.misc
This is the net standard "chat" subgroup name for groups that have
leafed. By creating this and removing c.s.a as a target for postings, we
force an immediate upgrade across the net; the proposal, once newgrouped
and rmgrouped, can't be "put off for later". This also has some news
software and general tidiness niceness for users; there won't be a group
that contains both articles and directories, so scripts can be simpler.
Post here to reach general c.s.a.* readership, rather than crossposting
to several other subgroups, if at all possible. This will be a big win
for all subscribers. The intention of having so many subgroups is that
this group be small, not large, so that everyone can afford to read it.
Whenever possible, post to a single, more specific group.
comp.sys.amiga.announce
This seems highly popular; it will probably be the most read group.
Think of it as the executive summary of c.s.a.*.
comp.sys.amiga.reviews
This seemed highly popular, also. Having it archived should make the
search for information on products easier and faster, and, if we can
educate c.s.a.* subscribers to look there first, cut down on a lot of
postings.
comp.sys.amiga.introduction
This name seems fairly well accepted now, modulo a couple of people
who'd like the shorter .intro. Per my previous plan, I want to use full
English words where no prior standard exists, for the sake of
subscribers in non-English speaking countries. The FAQ postings could
also go to .announce, but I think having them here with the newbie
"help" interaction is best placement.
comp.sys.amiga.applications
This name seems popular, again modulo the slow typists.
comp.sys.amiga.hardware
This should get a little more of its appropriate traffic now that .tech
is renamed and c.s.a is going away. This is one of my favorite groups,
because it is one whose content I rarely read, and I can find the things
I do want to read just by reading the subject lines. While it's
dreadfully unfair to have one hardware group and all these software
groups, the fact of the matter is that the number of folks competent to
hack hardware is much smaller.
comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Renames .tech; this should eliminate the stuff appropriate for
.hardware, while still focusing the discussion around software
develop{ers,ment}. This name seems most popular, though ".programming"
has been suggested a couple of times. I think there is precedent in some
other microcomputer groups for the current choice.
comp.sys.amiga.games
My baby! ;-) Needs to propagate a little better to match the current
c.s.a distribution, and I'm trying to get in touch with the
amiga-relay@udel.edu folks to get the relay subdivided, so games stuff
from them doesn't end up in c.s.a; this is another reason to newgroup
c.s.a.misc and nuke c.s.a. Anyway, the current success at damping games
postings to c.s.a shows what a good idea partitioning c.s.a is; there
are lots of people using this group, but also lots joyful _not_ to read
its contents any more.
comp.sys.amiga.market
My name choice here seems to have slipped by with only a little
grumbling. Yea! Some still suggest using the netwide forsale group, but
1) no one does, 2) this will get the ads out of .misc by creating an
obvious correct place to put them, 3) there will be a lot of Amiga
specific vendor discussions here. Please DO NOT crosspost to _any_ other
newsgroup; that's obnoxious and you'll get flamed, deservedly.
comp.sys.amiga.multimedia
There was a little support for shredding this out into multimedia,
graphics, music, video, speech, but there was more opposition; for now,
I bundled them all together, and we'll look again in 1992 or so. The
proposal to _have_ a multimedia group seemed well supported. I put the
print media stuff in .applications, though; comments?
comp.sys.amiga.emulations
The support for this has grown a lot since the last posting. There are
several who suggested bundling this in with what is now .influence, but
I'm not going to. Emulation discussions are a legitimate topic of high
value to the folks doing emulations, they are just of limited interest
to the rest ot the group. I don't find it fair to dump the emulations
people into the general ranting of .infulence.
comp.sys.amiga.influence
Name changed; best one I've found yet, suggestions still welcome; this
beats .compare, .futures, .rumors, .suggest, and several other ideas
seen so far (see below). The outbreaks of "why the Amiga should be a
{mac, ps/2, atari-tt, and so on}" postings are episodic, as are the real
benchmark postings, and the "why Commodore should add feature X at no
additional cost" postings, but when they hit, they're hell, so let's
give them and the "what the Amiga needs to adopt from new technology" a
place here. There's no perfect name but this one _is_ a grand magnet for
the c.s.a version of alt.religion.computers.
comp.sys.amiga.datacomm
A couple of people, a day apart, suggested folding terminal emulators,
Ethernet, DNET, Amiga UUCP, Amiga FIDONET, file archivers, packing
uploads, unpacking downloads, ftp questions, data transfer
({x,y,z}modem, kermit, etc.), and archive site locating threads in one
subgroup; arranged that way, there's plenty of traffic to justify a
separate subgroup. I chose .datacomm instead of .telecomm to reflect the
large data packaging component, when I put the subgroup back into this
proposal.
Henrik Clausen made the excellent point that _every_ USENet subscriber
accessing the net form an Amiga is in some sense interested in this
thread, since that's how the newsgroups are accessed, so it should be in
the current proposed partition.
comp.unix.amiga
By the time this proposal is enacted, the A3000UX will be street
hardware/software, if all goes well on both sides. There are perhaps
thousands of the machines in the field by now, hundreds for sure, and
the level of existing discussion already justifies a subgroup (see NEW
RANTS, above). Let's save the trouble of another vote in three months,
and get this done now. This group should, as Bill Vermillion noted, get
the Amiga specific Unix postings. The generic stuff is discussed in
comp.unix.{admin,internals,programmer} or comp.os.minix.
As stated earlier, I was willing to be outshouted on the name -- you ALL
win! Can I have my mailbox back now? ;-)
3) The capture and care of moderators.
--------------------------------------
The moderators' job is to filter (pass on the suitability of) postings,
and to add appropriate Followup-To: target newsgroups to postings.
We have at least these volunteers:
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) Sacremento, California
HONP9@jetson.uh.edu (Jason L. Tibbits III) Houston, Texas
[ peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) WITHDREW! ]
Dan's site is nicely available for quick turnaround on announcements, so
I'd like to suggest that he moderate the announce group. Dan, can you
provide coverage for summer/breaks? Announce needs continuous
availability, even if that just means that moderation is replaced by an
autoposting mail-to-newsgroup script during vacation times.
Jason has an accessible site and a reasonably endurable account, but
needs some hand holding to get started. I've asked him to look into the
support available for doing .reviews; we'll see.
In addition, limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) said he'd found
another volunteer to moderate, but gave no name. Is your volunteer still
nibbling, Tom?
I'd still appreciate some more volunteers, since I'm not in a position
to teach the skills of moderating, but there are lots of moderators on
the net to ask for scripts and advice. Also, the more volunteers who are
available, the better the chance that two can get full, long term site
support pledged.
I'd really appreciate the moderator volunteers sorting out among
themselves who gets which group, to save me refereeing. Trust me, I'm
already busy enough.
4) Proposals not added.
-----------------------
> comp.sys.amiga.whine_like_a_baby_but_don't_do_anything_positive_about_it
Cute, real cute. Not included because of the 14 character directory name
limit on older SYSV sites. Otherwise it was in like a shot to cover some
of the responses to this and all previous partition proposals.
Alternatives for .compare:
> comp.sys.amiga.wars
> comp.sys.amiga.mongering (both war and rumors :-)
> comp.sys.amiga.soapbox
> comp.sys.amiga.forum (naw -- too mild)
> comp.sys.amiga.trashcan
>
>. . . Oh no! I can't stop myslef! (Marc made me do it :-)
>
> comp.sys.amiga.free4all
> comp.sys.amiga.tagteam
> comp.sys.amiga.inferiority.complex (oops - 5 levels deep ;-)
> comp.sys.amiga.pixel_envy
> comp.sys.amiga.flatulence
Sure. ;-)
5) Other comments.
------------------
COMP.SYS.AMIGA BYE BYE.
The goal is to turn comp.sys.amiga into a node rather than a group
"immediately". I have no plan to touch comp.{sources,binaries}.amiga,
nor alt.sources.amiga.
RELAYS.
I know about amiga-relay@udel.edu, but can only deduce from the effects
how it works. Please let me know if you subscribe to this or another
relay, how I can contact the operator of the relay by email, and how the
relay works (mechanism, utility) from your point of view. The partition
is going to have a drastic effect on relays of c.s.a, and I need to make
arrangements with the relay operators to get the needed changes done,
and to clean up some of the existing problems (like dumping games
postings back in c.s.a). I already have the udel.edu operator's personal
email address, but not his attention. Sigh.
NUMBER OF GROUPS.
To the complaints that we can't pass a vote with a lot of groups: we not
only can (comp.unix, comp.sys.mac, and the IBM-PC groups just did so),
the group is causing such sysadmin and readership problems, we have to
partition it severely. A cut in two or three pieces won't be nearly
enough.
HUMAN NATURE.
To the complaints that the problems could all be solved with decent
subject lines and modern newsreaders: 1) people _don't_ use sensible
subject lines, and you won't change that behavior by wishful thinking,
though it is still a good idea (see below); 2) many, many readers have
no choice in their newsreaders, being in BITNET land or other barbarian
districts [ ;-) ], and some have only "Mail" as a choice of newsreader
for c.s.a. For the general readership, therefore, this opinion is simply
false, not to mention self-centered (see BOILERPLATE RANTING, above).
AGGLOMERATIONS.
Several people have suggested lumping things related (at least in their
minds) together to cut down the number of groups. The goal of the
partition is to create groups to exclude, not groups to include. The
more stuff that is lumped together in a single group, the greater the
chance you or the next person will have to read it all to get the small
part you want, the same problem c.s.a gives now. By dividing the same
set of postings into more, logical subgroups, you can choose to exclude
some of them more easily without missing what you want to read. There
are some compromises here. For the folks doing Mac emulations, plowing
through the Bridgeboard discussions is a nuisance, but to the greater
net that bought the Amiga to be an Amiga, avoiding all emulation
discussions is a Good Thing. Thus there is a .emulations, but not a
.emuMac, .emuIBM-PC, etc., the (fairly) happy medium.
On the other hand, just because there are two topics you personally
don't want to read doesn't make them good candidates for the same
subgroup; there are other people who will want to read exactly one of
them, and not plow through both in one subgroup. Thus dumping
.emulations and .influence (strange bedfellows indeed) together is very
unfair to the .emulations subscribers.
SUBJECT LINES.
Edwin Wiles made an excellent email suggestion with respect to the
.applications group: since this group is going to mix a lot of topics,
posters should be especially diligent to put the name of the application
prominently (and probably first) in the subject line to assist the folks
using intelligent newsreaders to bypass/choose certain topics. For
example:
Subject: WORDPERFECT 5.0 -- How do I get my new Farsi font to work?
This is really a good comment for all the groups, but he made it
especially for this one. Checking the subject line last thing before
posting to be sure it is still appropriate to the contents of your
article is an important part of responsible posting.
Don't change the subject line arbitrarily; that makes it hard to follow
threads. But don't leave it in an old thread when you've really chosen a
new topic, either.
CROSSPOSTING.
Unnecessary crossposting when the groups are split will cause all grades
of grief to the primitive newsreader sites. Part of the goal of a
complex partition is to provide an explicit and appropriate place for
each posting. If you have something that you feel needs to be in several
groups, post it to .misc instead. If that becomes the primary use of
.misc, and we can keep crossposting down to 1% or less, this partition
will be a big win. This in turn means that if you follow up a .misc
thread and only talk about the part appropriate to _one_ of the
subgroups, you should change the newsgroups line to just that one group,
and not continue in .misc. That will make the threads a little choppier,
but you will be reaching the audience focused on your intended topic
better this way.
KITCHEN SINKS.
If I'm asked many times, fervently, (it's a horrid editing task of about
450K of stuff), I'll post an enormous compendium of email and posted
comments on the rev 0 and rev 1 versions, but the above, I think,
captures the leanings and good new ideas, and I doubt anyone would
actually read the other.
BOUNCED EMAIL.
My apologies to several email correspondents from out in weird address
land; I've had lots of email bounce (email to waterloo.edu is breaking
at toronto.edu, for example, and I suddenly can't get email through
relay.cs.net, and lots of bitnet address are so bogus by the time they
get here and get turned around by Zorch, they break the NASA Ames mailer
going out, one of the most robust mailers worldwide, and ...), and I
don't have time right now for all the postmaster interactions it would
take to get things fixed, while also following the c.s.a discussions and
posting revisions and answering the flood of email on the proposals and
trying to arrange moderation.
VOTING.
When (LATER!) it is time to vote, I'll put up a ballot to cut and paste
(or inclusive "R"eply, but change the address!) with yes/no votes on the
functionality of each proposed subgroup; net rules for Yes > (No + 100)
and Yes > (2 * No) will hold for these votes.
Where there is still significant disagreement about a name (not one
person posting often and loudly but lots of people posting on each
side), there will be a subordinate vote on the names proposed,
_plurality_ wins, Little Tin Dictator breaks ties and decides which
names deserve even to get a vote on them included in the first place.
Even those voting against the functionality should still vote on a name
to get your choice noted in case the subgroup passes.
I'll be using an awk script to score the ballots, so the cut and paste
is mandatory to keep a format that awk can process. My sysop has
promised me a separate mailbox for ballots, too; posted ones or ones
mailed to my personal mailbox will be ignored, trashed, spindled,
shredded, spat upon, and mutilated.
YOUR COMMENTS.
Open season for support, comments, and criticisms; I'll comment on
responding postings in c.s.a as needed.
SCHEDULE.
I'll read all the email and comments on this I can find, and the next
version will go to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups, as well as
_all_ the Amiga groups. I've only got a couple days past the weekend to
get something sent to Eliot Lear to make his Friday posting effort, so
respond quickly, please, if you have input.
Kent, the man from xanth.
<xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
--
And they're off!peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/29/90)
Merge announce and introduction. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (10/29/90)
In article <1990Oct28.001448.25414@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >comp.sys.amiga.influence >All the "here's what the other folks are doing and how the Amiga >compares" postings; benchmarks; discussions of future goals for the >Amiga, rumors, general "do it better" ranting. IMHO, this name needs to be changed. Even though I have 5 years experience reading USENET news, I'm unable to guess (from the name) the purpose of the newsgroup. I don't have any fantastic suggestions for a new name, but here are a few attempts that might give other people inspiration: c.s.a.competition c.s.a.comparisons c.s.a.gripes c.s.a.improvements >comp.sys.amiga.datacomm I like ".telecomm" better; easier to parse. >comp.sys.amiga.market I think ".marketplace" is better. With all the talk about CBM "marketing" in this group, the given name could be ambiguous. Dan //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Department of Computer Science Johns Hopkins University | | INTERNET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | | COMPUSERVE: >internet:barrett@cs.jhu.edu | UUCP: barrett@jhunix.UUCP | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
jimmy@uhunix1.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jimmy Chan) (10/29/90)
When the call for votes go out, will we be able to vote yes/no for each group or will all the groups be lumped together for one vote?
ruslan@uncecs.edu (Robin C. LaPasha) (10/29/90)
> PROPOSAL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > comp.sys.amiga.misc >Replaces c.s.a; general talk group. Fine, whatever. > comp.sys.amiga.announce >Moderated: FF-disks, meetings, new products, product updates, shareware >releases, uploads to archives, bug reports, etc. Excellent... though I'd modify your description to make the submitters less tempted towards crass commercial announcements ;^). > comp.sys.amiga.reviews >Moderated, archived: where to put your formally written up impressions ^^^^^^^^^^(huh?) >of new stuff: hardware and freeware, shareware, or commercial serious >and game software. Again, good idea I guess, though the moderator should be of stern enough stuff to reject sloppy materials (especially if it's going to be archived.) > comp.sys.amiga.introduction >Frequently asked questions, how to use the groups, and other standard >and slow expiring postings, also new users' questions and the answers to >them from sympathetic gurus go here. I liked someone else's (Peter's?) idea of combining this with announce, though not if this is unmoderated (you don't specify that here.) In fact, I don't see there to be a need for an _unmoderated_ "introduction" - or perhaps we should call it "newusers" - group. If the "what's a fish disk" and "where's ftp and how do I do it" are regularly posted, folks shouldn't have to INSTANTLY ask the really odd questions. I think if you REALLY want an interactive group that doesn't overlap with ".announce" too much, you should make it ".questions". > comp.sys.amiga.hardware Of course. > comp.sys.amiga.programmer (Renames .tech) I too have been one of those folks who sometimes wondered about the diff between ".hardware" and ".tech" - this would clarify where to post. > comp.sys.amiga.games Fine, away, away from here! (As in yes, it helps.) > comp.sys.amiga.multimedia >Graphics, video, music, speech, and multimedia combinations. Now WAIT just a doggone minute! Kent, whoa! Not _all_ of that in one group. It would be too BIG. My hypermedia mailing list has over 100 folks on it - I think I'd better go grab their comments on this if you need convincing - a LOT of them have asked to be on the list because they can't handle the type of traffic in c.s.a.. This multimedia group would get all of the graphics, all of the sound, AND all of the multimedia stuff. And by stuff I mean both software (which would get erroneously crossposted to .apps as well as .misc) and hardware (which would get crossposted to hardware.) I for one wouldn't be able to read it. Every Dpaint bug? Every Dr.T's question? The Video Toaster and the graphics boards (which would be crossposted to... influence??) No, no, I can't deal with something that BIG. In case you need a reference - our hypermedia group deals with the dozen or so major multimedia software products (like AmigaVision, Deluxe Video, etc...) We can surely see the relevance of talking about more than one type of product in terms of hooking it all together. (Like, how do you convert Music-doohickey files to SMUS so that AmigaVision will play them? How big do those multimedia files get when your DPaint graphics are all overscan?) But - to open up a group to ... essentially anything and everything the Amiga has special goodies in (gfx, sound, video)... makes the group too big. If you intend such a catchall you should call it comp.sys.amiga.multipurpose, not multimedia. I'm not against the idea of a multimedia group (neither are a lot of folks in the mailing list, as I'm sure they'll follow up themselves. ;^)) I just say what you're proposing is too wide a scope. We've already gone over the idea of separate...music, midi, speech, stillgfx, video, and multimedia groups - and the problem of too much crossposting comes up. Thus said - 1) Does anyone have any bets on how a "sound" group would do, encompassing speech (generation and recognition) AND music (midi and 8SVX and SMUS and all that stuff?) 2) What about a "graphics" group, concerning still pics of all kinds, PLUS animations and video fx? (This group would have lots of crossposting to comp.graphics, but no more than already occurs.) 3) The "multimedia" group would have crossposting from the above groups, yes, but would be reserved for discussion of - a) the special products that handle more than one of the above, and b) other, unusual or ad-hoc, multimedia linkages (like the Atlanta Olympics presentation, for example.) Do folks think that multimedia can go as a separate group WITHOUT major huge amounts of crossposting from sound and sight camps? I do, but I'm biased. ;^) Note that I have lumped all sounds and all graphics into 2 groups NOT since I feel that MIDI is just like synthesized speech or that the Toaster is just like DPaint, but because I think the combination of VOLUME would be less likely to either starve or overload the groups, considering that (IMHO) they are generally coherent topic groupings. Again, I just say that lumping ALL sound and ALL sight together as "multimedia" makes too big a group. > comp.sys.amiga.applications Somehow it seems vague. Call it bizapps instead? (I know, you're trying to keep like the rest of the net...) >The rest of the applications software discussions:... >non-multimedia software applications talk. I can see the sharks here. Mebbe re-think how to chop up software, as what do Amigoids do for biz... > comp.sys.amiga.market Ah. Combo forsale and "Montgomery Grant" tales. Not a bad cohabitation, really. I like it. > comp.sys.amiga.emulations Good, better than a MONGO kill file (and yes, I can see where it's an "okay," "legit" group to have too!) > comp.sys.amiga.influence Would they really stay there? Most "ranters" seem to cross-post just to attract flamage. Be nice if it worked, though... I liked the "mongering" title too. ;^) > comp.sys.amiga.datacomm Zzz... what? Huh? Oh, yeah. ;^) (The narrow topics of the "perfect vt100 emulation" and "how to do a shared zmodem" generate a LOT of traffic, frequently of a pretty good s/n ratio. In other words, I don't wanna read it but somebody must, and they're honorably serious when they do it. ;^)) > comp.unix.amiga Minix? Uh, there is a minix group already somewhere. Comp.os.minix or something. It could have some possibly unwelcome crossposting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >VOTING. >When (LATER!) it is time to vote, I'll put up a ballot to cut and paste >(or inclusive "R"eply, but change the address!) with yes/no votes on the >functionality of each proposed subgroup; net rules for Yes > (No + 100) ^^^^ Okay, as long as we can vote for/against them separately. >YOUR COMMENTS. Open season Boom ;^) >Kent, the man from xanth. ><xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> >-- >And they're off! Their... -- Robin LaPasha |Keeper of the Amiga ruslan@ecsvax.uncecs.edu |Hypermedia Mailing List
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (10/29/90)
Well, I've been mostly skimming the articles on the subject, not paying a lot of attention, in the hopes that this would lead to a sort of a fuzzy knowledge of what the different groups were for, and this morning, it paid off. I just read a posting that made me react just like someonone new to Usenet, finding some of the titles to be exactly right, while others leave me wonering what they could possibly be about. My comments are a reflection of this state of mind. In <Oct.29.16.20.14.1990.11541@pilot.njin.net>, limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: > >I THINK KENT HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB, AND THAT THIS >REORGANIZATION IS VERY NEEDED. Chances are, I will vote for >whatever proposal makes to Call For Votes. Anything is better than >the current situation. I agree... lots of effort has been expended, and in a productive manner, by both Kent and the commenters. >In article <1990Oct28.001448.25414@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > >> comp.sys.amiga.announce >> comp.sys.amiga.reviews > >Fine. Yup. >> comp.sys.amiga.introduction I like it. Says it perfectly. '.into' would do it as well, and in a shorter form, but no matter. >> comp.sys.amiga.hardware >> comp.sys.amiga.programmer >> comp.sys.amiga.games > >Yea! (If I recall, with the c.s.a.tech vote was running, I posted >".tech is ambiguous... let's go with .programmer". Gloat, gloat, :-) Agreed. >> comp.sys.amiga.multimedia >> comp.sys.amiga.applications > >I still think that ".multimedia" is too broad. >I still think that ".appliations" should be ".apps". Not because >of the long name (I'm the fastest typist I know), but because of >the precident that the c.s.mac has set. I won't argue it a second time, >but I expect the news.groups people will bring it up. Again... says exactly what it means. I like it. >> comp.sys.amiga.market > >I know the definintion, you know the definition, but dispite that >we're going to get a million marketing questions and flames. If I >was a new user and want to rant: "C0mm0d0re sh00d do more advertz, >d00d!", I'd be tempted to post it (incorrectly) here. Don't you >think? I know that ba.market sets a precident for this name, but I >see ".classified" and ".forsale" as better names. I won't argue >this, but I think the news.groups people will. (and I promise a >big "I told you so" message if my prediction comes true :-=) (big >smilie with teeth!)) Strongly agree. Since we don't capitalize group names, I would read this as a 'big M Market', with its attendant connotation of Marketing, as in a Marketing Department; as in that part of CBM that sits around deciding what colour pamphlets they will give out at the next trade show. >> comp.sys.amiga.emulations Neutral. No matter. This probably reflects a personal desire on my part to not ever read anything in the group, no matter what we call it. >> comp.sys.amiga.influence > >I hate to say it, but the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups >are going to say, "this should be called comp.sys.amiga.flame". >Now, it can be argued that there is an alt group for this, and it >can be argued that since the group will deal with multiple >computers, it shouldn't be under just the c.s.a groups. Maybe a >comp.flame should be proposed? >Again, I am just bring these points up because news.groups will; I >have not formed an opinion on this issue. 'influence'? Frankly, I would not have known what sort of thing would be appropriate for a group with this name, were it not for the hint supplied by the suggested ',flame'. I might have guessed that it was meant for postings about (a) convincing CBM to follow a particular path in Marketing (cf.) The Amiga, or (b) What impact the Amiga is having on the industry, in business, in art, etc. >> comp.sys.amiga.datacomm > >I like it (but I know at least one person will request that it's >called "c.s.a.dcom". How about comp.sys.amiga.marco.papa ? :-) :-) >> comp.unix.amiga > >I like it, but I think news.groups will complain that it's a >newsgroup for a product that's not out yet. But it _is_ out. Well, it is if you count the shipments that are sort of more than beta, and less than full release.... the 'selected customer preview', if you will. >>4) Proposals not added. >>----------------------- >> >>> comp.sys.amiga.whine_like_a_baby_but_don't_do_anything_positive_about_it > >Damn. Double Damn. >I won't argue too much about these names, life if too short to take >Usenet seriously. I think the people of news.groups will (they >must plan on living a long time). I'm merely trying to bring up >points that IMHO they will bring up. Same here... The universe will click another notch on its journey regardless of what we call the groups. Please note that these comments are not meant to be anything more than an attempt to look at the proposal from the point of view of someone with a posting looking for a place to live, and with no previously ingrained ideas of namespace suitability. -larry -- It is not possible to both understand and appreciate Intel CPUs. -D.Wolfskill +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (10/30/90)
Intro: I just want to say that I used to read news.groups continually until about 2 months ago. I doubt the philosophy that they hold has changed much. My suggestions are based on what I think they will yell and scream about. I'm keeping most of my personal nit-picking to myself. Life it too short to get angry about Usenet. I THINK KENT HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB, AND THAT THIS REORGANIZATION IS VERY NEEDED. Chances are, I will vote for whatever proposal makes to Call For Votes. Anything is better than the current situation. In article <1990Oct28.001448.25414@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: [Much deleted] > comp.sys.amiga.announce > comp.sys.amiga.reviews Fine. > comp.sys.amiga.introduction First of all, the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups will dislike this name. ".newuser" has precident, why not use it? (I admit to often siding with the name.space.control.freaks, maybe I'm a n.s.c.f wanna-be? :-) ) > comp.sys.amiga.hardware > comp.sys.amiga.programmer > comp.sys.amiga.games Yea! (If I recall, with the c.s.a.tech vote was running, I posted ".tech is ambiguous... let's go with .programmer". Gloat, gloat, :-) > comp.sys.amiga.multimedia > comp.sys.amiga.applications I still think that ".multimedia" is too broad. I still think that ".appliations" should be ".apps". Not because of the long name (I'm the fastest typist I know), but because of the precident that the c.s.mac has set. I won't argue it a second time, but I expect the news.groups people will bring it up. I predict that every .multimedia post will be crossposted to ".applications" and ".software" *or* crossposted to ".hardware" (depending on the software/hardware nature of the question). Is this good or bad? I don't know. I prefer .multimedia, .apps.biz, and .apps.misc. I know that's a big change from the current proposal, so just consider it food for thought. I'd just rather see .apps be a hub. > comp.sys.amiga.market I know the definintion, you know the definition, but dispite that we're going to get a million marketing questions and flames. If I was a new user and want to rant: "C0mm0d0re sh00d do more advertz, d00d!", I'd be tempted to post it (incorrectly) here. Don't you think? I know that ba.market sets a precident for this name, but I see ".classified" and ".forsale" as better names. I won't argue this, but I think the news.groups people will. (and I promise a big "I told you so" message if my prediction comes true :-=) (big smilie with teeth!)) > comp.sys.amiga.emulations Wow! One of my ideas makes it this far! Makes me glad I collected those statistics. Comment: Where would a new user post "What's the best vt100 emulator?"? Temptation would be to post it here. Is this good? Well, I guess a VT100 emulator is software that emulates an actual machine. It could be argued either way. Again, no opinion. > comp.sys.amiga.influence I hate to say it, but the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups are going to say, "this should be called comp.sys.amiga.flame". Now, it can be argued that there is an alt group for this, and it can be argued that since the group will deal with multiple computers, it shouldn't be under just the c.s.a groups. Maybe a comp.flame should be proposed? Again, I am just bring these points up because news.groups will; I have not formed an opinion on this issue. > comp.sys.amiga.datacomm I like it (but I know at least one person will request that it's called "c.s.a.dcom". How about comp.sys.amiga.marco.papa ? :-) > comp.unix.amiga I like it, but I think news.groups will complain that it's a newsgroup for a product that's not out yet. >3) The capture and care of moderators. >-------------------------------------- >In addition, limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) said he'd found >another volunteer to moderate, but gave no name. Is your volunteer still >nibbling, Tom? He didn't say that I could publicly announce his name, but he didn't say I couldn't. I'll send him email and ask him to crawl out from under his rock (or keyboard garage). BTW, his initials are MM. :-) >4) Proposals not added. >----------------------- > >> comp.sys.amiga.whine_like_a_baby_but_don't_do_anything_positive_about_it Damn. Some other notes: ----------------- People didn't seem to understand that I was joking about electing a c.s.a net.police person to enforce certain rules. IT'S A JOKE. I won't argue too much about these names, life if too short to take Usenet seriously. I think the people of news.groups will (they must plan on living a long time). I'm merely trying to bring up points that IMHO they will bring up. -Tom -- tlimonce@drew.edu Tom Limoncelli "Freedom and justice tlimonce@drew.uucp +1 201 408 5389 are opposites" tlimonce@drew.Bitnet limonce@pilot.njin.net -me
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (10/30/90)
[This is a re-post... I canceled the original.] Intro: I just want to say that I used to read news.groups continually until about 2 months ago. I doubt the philosophy that they hold has changed much. My suggestions are based on what I think they will yell and scream about. I'm keeping most of my personal nit-picking to myself. Life it too short to get angry about Usenet. I THINK KENT HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB, AND THAT THIS REORGANIZATION IS VERY NEEDED. Chances are, I will vote for whatever proposal makes to Call For Votes. Anything is better than the current situation. In article <1990Oct28.001448.25414@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: [Much deleted] > comp.sys.amiga.announce > comp.sys.amiga.reviews Fine. > comp.sys.amiga.introduction First of all, the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups will dislike this name. ".newuser" has precident, why not use it? (I admit to often siding with the name.space.control.freaks, maybe I'm a n.s.c.f wanna-be? :-) ) > comp.sys.amiga.hardware > comp.sys.amiga.programmer > comp.sys.amiga.games Yea! (If I recall, with the c.s.a.tech vote was running, I posted ".tech is ambiguous... let's go with .programmer". Gloat, gloat, :-). > comp.sys.amiga.multimedia > comp.sys.amiga.applications I still think that ".multimedia" is too broad. I still think that ".appliations" should be ".apps". Not because of the long name (I'm the fastest typist I know), but because of the precident that the "c.s.mac" has set. I won't argue it a second time, but I expect the news.groups people will bring it up. I predict that every .multimedia post will be crossposted to ".applications" and ".software" *or* crossposted to ".hardware" (depending on the software/hardware nature of the question). Is this good or bad? I don't know. I prefer ".multimedia", ".apps.biz", and ".apps.misc". I know that's a big change from the current proposal, so just consider it food for thought. I'd just rather see ".apps" be a hub. > comp.sys.amiga.market I know the definintion, you know the definition, but dispite that we're going to get a million marketing questions and flames. If I was a new user and want to rant: "C0mm0d0re sh00d do more advertz, d00d!", I'd be tempted to post it (incorrectly) here. Don't you think? I know that ba.market sets a precident for this name, but I see ".classified" and ".forsale" as better names. I won't argue this, but I think the news.groups people will. (and I promise a big "I told you so" message if my prediction comes true :-=) (big smilie with teeth!)) > comp.sys.amiga.emulations Wow! One of my ideas makes it this far! Makes me glad I collected those statistics. Comment: Where would a new user post "What's the best vt100 emulator?"? Temptation would be to post it here. Is this good? Well, I guess a VT100 emulator is software that emulates an actual machine. It could be argued either way. Again, no opinion. > comp.sys.amiga.influence I hate to say it, but the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups are going to say, "this should be called comp.sys.amiga.flame". Now, it can be argued that there is an alt group for this, and it can be argued that since the group will deal with multiple computers, it shouldn't be under just the c.s.a groups. Maybe a comp.flame should be proposed? Again, I am just bringing these points up because news.groups will; I have not formed an opinion on this issue. > comp.sys.amiga.datacomm I like it (but I know at least one person will request that it's called "c.s.a.dcom". How about comp.sys.amiga.marco.papa ? :-) > comp.unix.amiga I like it, but I think news.groups will complain that it's a newsgroup for a product that's not out yet. >3) The capture and care of moderators. >-------------------------------------- >In addition, limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) said he'd found >another volunteer to moderate, but gave no name. Is your volunteer still >nibbling, Tom? He didn't say that I could publicly announce his name, but he didn't say I couldn't. I'll send him email and ask him to crawl out from under his rock (or keyboard garage). BTW, his initials are MM. :-) Some other notes: ----------------- People didn't seem to understand that I was joking about electing a c.s.a net.police person to enforce certain rules. IT'S A JOKE. I won't argue too much about these names, life if too short to take Usenet seriously. I think the people of news.groups will (they must plan on living a long time). I'm merely trying to bring up points that IMHO they will bring up. -Tom -- tlimonce@drew.edu Tom Limoncelli "Freedom and justice tlimonce@drew.uucp +1 201 408 5389 are opposites" tlimonce@drew.Bitnet limonce@pilot.njin.net -me
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (10/30/90)
In article <Oct.29.16.47.42.1990.12671@pilot.njin.net> limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: > > >> comp.sys.amiga.influence > >I hate to say it, but the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups >are going to say, "this should be called comp.sys.amiga.flame". Nobody likes any of these names, (.compare, etc.), but everybody agrees that it is needed, if only so we don't have to read it. How about: comp.sys.amiga.ideas I think it's a very positive name, and it pretty much covers what people are trying to accomplish in many of the posts. It would also neatly encompass those annoying "Commodore should make a standard for a 29-bit whizbanger, just like everyone else has!!" >> comp.unix.amiga >I like it, but I think news.groups will complain that it's a >newsgroup for a product that's not out yet. Out in Australia. Out at Virginia Tech. Good enough for me. >People didn't seem to understand that I was joking about electing a >c.s.a net.police person to enforce certain rules. IT'S A JOKE. Why? You can't get someone to ENFORCE RULES, but there's nothing to keep you from REMINDING someone about ETIQUITTE. This is done elsewhere on the net. If you don't believe me, try crossposting something to misc.forsale.computers and comp.anything. You will get read the rules so fast it makes your head spin (yes, I found out the way you think I found out). Yes, I know a lot of you reading this just got annoyed. Followup for good reasons, e-mail for flames. >I won't argue too much about these names, life if too short to take >Usenet seriously. I think the people of news.groups will (they >must plan on living a long time). I'm merely trying to bring up >points that IMHO they will bring up. You're probably right. How about this: For those groups which have some question about what the name should be, we vote on the charters, and we also vote on what the name should be. For example: (vote yes or no) Group to discuss the way fleas always grow on your keyboard and jump into your shorts, biting you horribly. (vote for one name for the above group) comp.sys.amiga.fleas comp.sys.amiga.fleabite comp.sys.amiga.keyboard comp.sys.amiga.bugs comp.bugs.fleas I don't know if this is a "legal" way to do this, but it should be. Anyway, we've got four more days to work this out before the official call for discussion. -Dan Zerkle vapor-moderator Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240 Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/30/90)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >Merge announce and introduction. Huh? Group .announce is there to provide a _moderated_, _minimal_ group for the person who is too busy to follow the discussions but would like to know about important happenings, sort of like news.announce.newgroups compared to news.groups. The group to read if you have time to read just one. On the other hand .introduction is _the_ place to start interacting with the c.s.a group as a newbie; standard postings of c.s.a.* charters and FAQ and "Welcome to c.s.a", and to get beginners' questions answered. Dumping the newbie Q&A into .announce would destroy its utility to the busy reader and make it obnoxious. Putting a moderation timelag into the newbie Q&A would make it nearly useless as a forum. In brief, not just NO, but ... On another issue, Robin La Pasha (spelled without looking back, sorry), has put forward a strong email argument for splitting away .sound and .graphics from .multimedia. Seems the Amiga hypermedia mailing list maintained by Robin has a hundred eager readers/writers, many driven out by the volume of c.s.a, and .multimedia would quickly grow too big with their return if all the current topics are kept in the subroup. Robin's suggestion is to have the two indicated additional subgroups, and reserve .multimedia for discussions which truly blend the media. I think it's going to n.a.n that way; someone who is running a mailing list big enough to qualify as a newsgroup by itself is a "more equal pig" in Orwell's parlance, and gets a heavier "vote" in deciding the partition. Also, I have been reminded I seem to need to come up with full blown charters for each subgroup. Volunteer authors, don't ask, just email your effort to me for any subgroup you want to describe and I'll cut and paste the results and write the ones myself for which I get no input within a week or so. Again, moderation seems to be going well, Dan Zerkle and Jason L. Tibbitts III have agreed how to split .announce and .reviews, and how to cover for vacations, and Mike Meyer has also volunteered to moderate if one of the others can't make local arrangements. Hmmm. We could always cut the bandwidth by moderating _all_ the subgroups if we get enough moderators ... that would be an interesting net precedent. ;*( Hey, where did all the flames go? ;-) =^) /// It's Amiga /// for me: why Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? -- Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/30/90)
In article <1990Oct29.060811.10094@uncecs.edu> ruslan@uncecs.edu (Robin C. LaPasha) writes: > 1) Does anyone have any bets on how a "sound" group would do, Be pretentious and call it "audio". And call the other one "video" to make sure the desktop publishing folks don't get confused. They really belong in the .applications group (or comp.sys.mac). The amount of cross dressing between the two groups is unlikely to be a problem. Besides, "multimedia" used to be called "audiovisal". > > comp.sys.amiga.influence > Would they really stay there? Most "ranters" seem to cross-post just to > attract flamage. Be nice if it worked, though... I liked the "mongering" > title too. ;^) I still prefer something like ".futures". Or be honest and call it .flame. > > comp.unix.amiga > Minix? AMIX. > Uh, there is a minix group already somewhere. Comp.os.minix or > >And they're off! > Their... They're. They are off. Jesus, don't nobody learn to talk English good no more? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/30/90)
In article <Oct.29.16.20.14.1990.11541@pilot.njin.net> limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: > Yea! (If I recall, with the c.s.a.tech vote was running, I posted > ".tech is ambiguous... let's go with .programmer". Gloat, gloat, :-) You're right. I was wrong. (news flash, Peter da Silva apologises. Clip this article, it's a collector's item) > I know the definintion, you know the definition, but dispite that > we're going to get a million marketing questions and flames. If I > was a new user and want to rant: "C0mm0d0re sh00d do more advertz, > d00d!", I'd be tempted to post it (incorrectly) here. Good. That way I won't have to read these rants. > > comp.sys.amiga.influence > I hate to say it, but the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups > are going to say, "this should be called comp.sys.amiga.flame". They'd be right. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/30/90)
In article <6727@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: > >comp.sys.amiga.datacomm > I like ".telecomm" better; easier to parse. How about ".telecom", to follow the precedent of the somewhat redundantly named "comp.dcom.telecom"? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (10/31/90)
In article <1990Oct30.022453.2043@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >Also, I have been reminded I seem to need to come up with full blown >charters for each subgroup. Volunteer authors, don't ask, just email >your effort to me for any subgroup you want to describe and I'll cut and >paste the results and write the ones myself for which I get no input >within a week or so. This is a draft charter. If you have suggestions for revisions, please E-MAIL them to ME. When I feel happy with the revisions, I'll send it to Kent for the official Call For Discussion. Here you go: _____________________________________________________________________ Draft Charter For Comp.Sys.Amiga.Announce Name: comp.sys.amiga.announce Moderated: yes Purpose: The "news" group of the Amiga computer newsgroups. Announcements concerning new products and releases of hardware and software, meetings, and events. Also, brief news reports of general interest to the Amiga community. General comments: This is the group that everybody can read quickly to keep up with developments in the Amiga computing community. The traffic is purposely kept low so that users can quickly find important information without wading through an excessive amount of traffic on other issues. This is not an advertising forum. Product announcements should list only the features or improvements of a product, with no sales hype, comments about competing products, or instructions on how to buy. They may list a telephone number or postal address to contact for further information. Any product announcements should include an availability date. Subsequent announcements about any product or event may only include corrections to earlier errors. It is preferred that announcements be from official representatives. Quotes from magazines or newspapers are copyrighted and are not acceptable. Questionable sources are verified and confirmed before posting. No discussion of announcements is permitted, as this group is intended to be short and easy to read. Followups for discussion are redirected to the appropriate other groups. For example, followups to an announcement of a new memory card are directed to comp.sys.amiga.hardware. Rejected postings are returned by the moderator with an explanation of the problem and possible suggestions on how to fix it. _________________________________________________________________ I think this is pretty good, but I want to make sure that nobody out there has some brilliant idea that I should throw in. One thing I'm not sure on: should companies be permitted to give the list price of their products, or should that be given over the phone? Also, are e-mail addresses permissible sources of "other information"? Something tells me we shouldn't use the Internet for blatant commercialism, but e-mail is so nice.... Again, please E-MAIL your suggestions to ME. Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240 Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/31/90)
In article <10068@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> jimmy@uhunix1.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jimmy Chan) writes: > >When the call for votes go out, will we be able to vote yes/no for each >group or will all the groups be lumped together for one vote? There will be a yes/no for each group, and, if there is still significant quibbling about names for some groups, a subordinate "plurality wins" vote for the two or three names most supported. Nevertheless, I urge each voter to vote yes on the whole split or no on the whole split. There are lots of combinations that could come out of a partially approved proposal that would be worse than leaving things as is. Remember, we're really not voting on whether we approve of the traffic that will be in a group, the traffic will exist with or without this proposal; we're just voting on where that traffic will appear. I personally plan to create an emailer daemon that sends "take it to .influence" letters to the author of every rambling flame in another c.s.a group. ;-) /// It's Amiga /// for me: why Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? -- Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/31/90)
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: > xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >>comp.sys.amiga.influence > IMHO, this name needs to be changed. Even though I have 5 years >experience reading USENET news, I'm unable to guess (from the name) the >purpose of the newsgroup. Well, I agree I'd like a better name, I just haven't seen it yet. For the really dedicated newsreader, there will be a charter to read. I'm still open to suggestions... > I don't have any fantastic suggestions for a new name, but here >are a few attempts that might give other people inspiration: > > c.s.a.competition > c.s.a.comparisons > c.s.a.gripes > c.s.a.improvements ... but none of those capture the full flavor of the group, either. >>comp.sys.amiga.datacomm > I like ".telecomm" better; easier to parse. But not the name of the group where you'd post your lharc questions. "Datacomm" is an older name for telecomm, but it carries the extra meaning needed. I'm keeping it unless the protest volume rises and there's no support for this one. >>comp.sys.amiga.market > I think ".marketplace" is better. With all the talk about CBM >"marketing" in this group, the given name could be ambiguous. I was going with a local name, ba.market, which seems to attract the appropriate traffic, but your name is nice, too. You'll know what I decided by the weekend, when the CFD I send in tonight should be widely available from news.announce.newusers and news.groups. Right now I'm leaning toward marketplace. /// It's Amiga /// for me: why Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? -- Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (10/31/90)
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: > [what news.groups] will yell and scream about: >> comp.sys.amiga.introduction >First of all, the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups will >dislike this name. ".newuser" has precident, why not use it? (I >admit to often siding with the name.space.control.freaks, maybe I'm >a n.s.c.f wanna-be? :-) ) We are combining for the c.s.a group the functions of news.announce.newusers, news.newusers, and comp.unix.questions. The current name better captures the combined functionality. >> comp.sys.amiga.multimedia >> comp.sys.amiga.applications > >I still think that ".multimedia" is too broad. You and Robin. It gets split as a group, kept as a name. >I still think that ".applications" should be ".apps". No, the number of English as a second language folks on the net is growing rapidly. We can't afford to ignore the problems our acronyms and abbreviations cause this group. Rename the existing .apps groups, don't make me make a poor choice for this one. Take a look at the number of French, German, Swedish, Japanese, Spanish and Danish speaking readers _currently_ posting to c.s.a. >I prefer .multimedia, .apps.biz, and .apps.misc. I know that's a >big change from the current proposal, so just consider it food for >thought. I'd just rather see .apps be a hub. Again, no. We're much better off with a flat address space; it makes things easier for thousands of users. We can spin off .productivity later if the demand is demonstrated. >> comp.sys.amiga.market > >I know the definintion, you know the definition, but dispite that >we're going to get a million marketing questions and flames. If I >was a new user and want to rant: "C0mm0d0re sh00d do more advertz, >d00d!", I'd be tempted to post it (incorrectly) here. Don't you >think? I know that ba.market sets a precident for this name, but I >see ".classified" and ".forsale" as better names. Ads aren't the primary purpose of this group, "where do I buy, who's an honest vendor, what's a good price" postings far outweigh the two or three ads a day. If we name it .forsale, the net won't buy it as different from misc.forsale.computers, even though no one here will ever use it. .classified also fails to capture the intent of the group. Nevertheless, you're right, that is a problem, so you win; it gets changed. The recently proposed alternative .marketplace will replace .market. With some luck that will repulse the marketing flames to .influence or whatever it ends up called, without calling down the wrath of the net on the subgroup. >> comp.sys.amiga.emulations > >Wow! One of my ideas makes it this far! Makes me glad I collected >those statistics. It was a big area I'd missed, I was greatful for the suggestion. >Comment: Where would a new user post "What's the best vt100 >emulator?"? Temptation would be to post it here. Is this good? >Well, I guess a VT100 emulator is software that emulates an actual >machine. It could be argued either way. Again, no opinion. I can live with the occasional mistargeted post; as long as we get 80% right, I'll be delighted. There will be lots of people willing to help steer newbies straight. >> comp.sys.amiga.influence >I hate to say it, but the name.space.control.freaks of news.groups >are going to say, "this should be called comp.sys.amiga.flame". >Now, it can be argued that there is an alt group for this, and it >can be argued that since the group will deal with multiple >computers, it shouldn't be under just the c.s.a groups. Maybe a >comp.flame should be proposed? Our problem is not what to do with flames, or cross computer flames, it is what to do with a certain portion of the existing traffic in comp.sys.amiga. For that we _must_ have a group in the c.s.a.* heirarchy, and the net WILL NOT let us have it if it is named .flame. There is a legitimate function of comparing God's Gift to Microcomputers with the trashy competition ;-) which is why the benchmark postings go here; if .compare would have attracted all the other stuff we want to wall off here, I would have kept the name. I'm still open for an _excellent_ suggestion for a better name, but variations on pejoratives are NOT being considered; see again 'legitimate function". >> comp.sys.amiga.datacomm >I like it (but I know at least one person will request that it's >called "c.s.a.dcom". How about comp.sys.amiga.marco.papa ? :-) Well, nice as Atalk probably is (I'm using a four year old freeware package in complete contentment, even though I'm five releases behind), there's lots of other stuff in here, so we'll wait until Marco goes into sales to retire his jersey. >> comp.unix.amiga > >I like it, but I think news.groups will complain that it's a >newsgroup for a product that's not out yet. Two responses: 1) yes it is, and 2) we're still talking traffic, not hardware/software. The _talk_ about it is rife. >>3) The capture and care of moderators. >>-------------------------------------- >>In addition, limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) said he'd found >>another volunteer to moderate, but gave no name. Is your volunteer still >>nibbling, Tom? >He didn't say that I could publicly announce his name, but he >didn't say I couldn't. I'll send him email and ask him to crawl >out from under his rock (or keyboard garage). BTW, his initials >are MM. :-) Already emerged, then. >Some other notes: >----------------- >People didn't seem to understand that I was joking about electing a >c.s.a net.police person to enforce certain rules. IT'S A JOKE. Not that bad an idea to appoint a traffic monitor over .introduction, though, if just to notice what questions need to go in the FAQ posting, and maybe flame the occasional maggot by email. I'm pushing MM for the job, since it looks like .announce and .reviews are now moderated. We'll see. >I won't argue too much about these names, life if too short to take >Usenet seriously. Second the motion. I only put up with this garbage because my life has nothing else in it to take seriously. /// It's Amiga /// for me: why Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? -- Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.
hclausen@adspdk.UUCP (Henrik Clausen) (11/01/90)
In article <6929@sugar.hackercorp.com>, Peter da Silva writes: > In article <1990Oct29.060811.10094@uncecs.edu> ruslan@uncecs.edu (Robin C. LaPasha) writes: > > 1) Does anyone have any bets on how a "sound" group would do, > > Be pretentious and call it "audio". And call the other one "video" to make > sure the desktop publishing folks don't get confused. What about them DPaint, DigiPaint etc. folks who don't use their graphics for video? .graphics is fine, .audio sounds better than .sound to me. .sound is more like a sound effect group :-) > > > comp.unix.amiga > > Minix? > AMIX. Would be nice. But the product _is_ Unix! -Henrik | Henrik Clausen, Graffiti Data (for i=0; *Text[i]; i++) | | ...{pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!adspdk!hclausen | \__"Do not accept the heart that is the slave to reason" - Qawwali trad__/
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (11/01/90)
In article <1990Oct30.022453.2043@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > On the other hand .introduction is _the_ place to start interacting with > the c.s.a group as a newbie; standard postings of c.s.a.* charters and > FAQ and "Welcome to c.s.a", and to get beginners' questions answered. Then change the bloody name. I was confused by it, even after reading your discussion I thought it was a place for FAQ postings and the like. Other people are confused too. I think here (and with the .influence group) you're getting carried away with innovation. Call it .questions. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (11/02/90)
In article <6958@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1990Oct30.022453.2043@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >> On the other hand .introduction is _the_ place to start interacting with >> the c.s.a group as a newbie; standard postings of c.s.a.* charters and >> FAQ and "Welcome to c.s.a", and to get beginners' questions answered. ^^^ > >Then change the bloody name. I was confused by it, even after reading your >discussion I thought it was a place for FAQ postings and the like. Other >people are confused too. I think here (and with the .influence group) you're >getting carried away with innovation. Call it .questions. It's for both standardized postings and for beginners to ask questions. I think .introduction is appropriate for a name. For those who don't like three letter acronyms (TLA's), FAQ = Frequently asked questions However, I have to agree on the name .influence. I think the group is a good idea, if only so I don't have to read those messages. I think the name SUCKS. It's not perfect, but I think my suggestion for a name does a little better: comp.sys.amiga.ideas What do other people think of this idea? ----- On a remotely related note, we have a volunteer (who can name himself if he wants) that will write the introduction document for the c.s.a heirarchy, letting people know where and how to post. His job can also entail helping out beginners in the .introduction group, and reminding people of the guidelines if they make a mistake. This person would not be a moderator per se of .introduction, so Kent thought we could call him a "monitor". The group is not to be moderated, but it would be nice to have someone with a little experience responsible for helping out. One of the people I have discussed this with noted that this may or may not go over well with the net, but it would be worth a trial run for two or three months. I tend to agree that it would be worth a shot to see if people like it. Certainly, anything to cut down on misposts and all the bitching people do about them would be appreciated. Any (intelligent) opinions on this latter idea? Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240 Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (11/02/90)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >> On the other hand .introduction is _the_ place to start interacting with >> the c.s.a group as a newbie; standard postings of c.s.a.* charters and >> FAQ and "Welcome to c.s.a", and to get beginners' questions answered. >Then change the bloody name. I was confused by it, even after reading your >discussion I thought it was a place for FAQ postings and the like. Other >people are confused too. I think here (and with the .influence group) you're >getting carried away with innovation. Call it .questions. I don't know how they do things in Oz, Peter, but here when you start reading something, you start with the introduction. Nothing could be clearer; the confusion is your desire to have absolutely everything you espouse become law; there is nothing wrong with that name as a way to get newbies started in the group. Back off. /// It's Amiga /// for me: why Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? -- Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.
eeh@public.BTR.COM (Eduardo E. Horvath eeh@btr.com) (11/03/90)
In article <1990Oct31.024011.22787@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: [...] > comp.sys.amiga.influence >... I'm still open for an >_excellent_ suggestion for a better name, but variations on pejoratives >are NOT being considered; see again 'legitimate function". O.K., here's my suggestion: comp.sys.amiga.Marketing While it may become confused with comp.sys.amiga.marketplace, it does summarize the precise meaning we are looking for. It perfectly describes where certain people (names changed to protect the innocent 8^) can flame C='s marketing or other companies they don't particularly care for. Now if we caould only get the name.space.control.freaks to go along with it, or call it c.s.a.Mktng ========================================================================= Eduardo Horvath eeh@btr.com ..!{decwrl,mips,fernwood}!btr!eeh "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer =========================================================================
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (11/03/90)
In article <1990Nov2.024156.27836@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > I don't know how they do things in Oz, Peter, but here when you start reading > something, you start with the introduction. I don't know where you are, but in Usenet it's traditional to call these sorts of groups "newusers" or "questions". All I'm asking is that you follow this tradition. Sure, it's a newbie magnet... but isn't that what you're proposing this group *for*? Flames cheerfully ignored. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (11/03/90)
In article <1823acbc.ARN03880@adspdk.UUCP> hclausen@adspdk.UUCP writes: > In article <6929@sugar.hackercorp.com>, Peter da Silva writes: > > Be pretentious and call it "audio". And call the other one "video" to make > > sure the desktop publishing folks don't get confused. > What about them DPaint, DigiPaint etc. folks who don't use their > graphics for video? Good point. How about ".audio" and ".graphics" then? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.