greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (10/15/90)
In article <1990Oct14.215059.12461@csmil.umich.edu> chymes@zug.csmil.umich.edu (Charles Hymes) writes: [Charles enclosed the following article, which I have edited into little, tiny pieces, mo-hahahaha......er....'scuse me.] [This is not a personal flame to Charles Hymes or Charles Perkins.] >Article 8066 of comp.sys.next: >From: clp@wjh12.harvard.edu (Charles L. Perkins) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.next >Subject: For more of a flavour of Intro day, here's a personal report. >A slide shows the Mac II ci >and fx at about 4 and 7 MIPS (I'm trying to write this all from memory, so >forgive silly errors), the average of the IBM and Compaq 386 and 486 PCs at >around 7 and 12 MIPS, and the SPARC SLC and about 12 and the SPARC 1+ at about >15 MIPS. Now remember that NeXT wants to be a "Super PC" not a traditional >workstation, thus the comparison to other PCs, and thus also its positioning at >15 MIPS -- equal to the SPARC 1+ and exceeding all other available PCs. ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ First of all, if I ever needed a reason to dislike Steve Jobs, I've got one now. Using (M)isleading (I)ndications of (P)rocessor (S)peed has got to be one of the most dishonest ways to benchmark a computer. Second of all, referring to the underlined phrase: Not even in Steve Jobs' wettest dreams. The 040's fast, but it's no RISC. > On the price issue, he showed the same MIPS slides with the prices written >above them for comparison. I believe they were approx. $8k for the ci, $12k >for the fx, about $7k and $10k for the 386/486 pair, $6500 for the SLC (all >machines had the cheapest disk added to them to get them up to the 105 MB >included in the NeXT), and $9k (?) for the 1+. The lowest cost NeXT comes in >at only $4995 retail price. This includes: > > - 68040 with 8 MB RAM - DSP 56001 / CD sound out > - 105 MB disk with 2.0 pre-installed - MegaPixel 17" display > - SCSI-2 interface and connector - 2 improved RS-423 ports > - Usual (LOTS) of bundled software - Integrated microphone > - 2.88 MB floppy disk drive - Twisted pair and BNC ethernet No color for this model. From what I hear, NO MATHEMATICA! I have heard from more than one person that this was the _ONLY_ reason to buy a NeXT. In fact, that's why my school has one... > For the applications issue, there were four main thrusts. Steve presented >the four areas of interest as: (1) business productivity apps (traditionally >dominated by the PC market), (2) desktop publishing and layout apps (Mac), >(3) custom-designed and tailored high-powered apps (Sun), and (4) To-be- >discussed-later. I'll talk about each presentation in turn: These people are afraid of Multimedia... > And, to address the fourth complaint, no color, Steve saved the best for >last. He introduced a version of the $4995 NeXTstation called NeXTstation >Color... >... >and costs only $7995. Yes, friends, a $3000 option. And guess what? You can't upgrade a NeXTstation to a NeXTstation Color... >A brand new NeXTdimension LIST PRICE is $14k, about 1/3 to 1/4 >the price of comparable ANYTHINGs, workstations, personal IRISes, PCs with all >those extra boards, etc. For the price, I'd buy a Toaster... Granted the NeXTDimension might (MIGHT) have better performance. Then again, since I haven't seen them side by side, I could be wrong about the performance being ANY better... > I think this really is the beginning of a new era, just as PCs brought down >the price of individual computing, this will bring down the cost of individual >multi-media, integrated environments that can as easily download and utilize ^^^^^ ^^^^^ It won't bring this price down with a pricetag of $14K for the NeXTDimension. >the latest movie, MTV video, and local songwriter's MIDI performance info. as >they can create their own programs, music, video, and movies. All information >services can now begin to combine distribution channels, all forms of media >can now be edited. I forget to mention, the NeXT also has a cheap CD-ROM. And ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ How cheap is cheap? A CD-ROM drive will cost the same amount for any computer, unless Apple or NeXT makes it, in which case it will cost more... >don't forget the integrated networking, multi-media mail, and services. You >can see the possibilities as well as I...it is an exciting time we live in. I agree that the new NeXT is exciting, but don't try to tell me that it's all that revolutionary. Anyone can advertise an 040 machine before they're out. Nowadays most manufacturers have the tact to wait until they can actually start shipping to avoid embarrasment. > Charles I'm not sure why this was re-posted to this newsgroup. If it was intended to clear up a few things, it has only proven that manufacturers can still get away with alot... Greg ---------------Greg-Harp---------------greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu---------------- AMIGA! // // Don't you just hate those long signature files? I mean, there oughta \X/ be a law. If I were in control, .sigs would get cut off if they were
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (10/15/90)
In article <38267@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: >First of all, if I ever needed a reason to dislike Steve Jobs, I've got one >now. Using (M)isleading (I)ndications of (P)rocessor (S)peed has got to be >one of the most dishonest ways to benchmark a computer. Yes, but when everyone else talks in shades of green, sometimes you must, too. I assume they're quoting Dhrystone v1.1 MIPS, scaled relative to VAX 11/780 performance on same. Everyone does this; so? Actually, NeXT has in my opinion conservatively rated the NeXTstation's performance (based on my experience with, er, other brands of '040 boxes :). Kudos to them, if true (or tomatoes if their compiler is really that bad :). And sure, any single benchmark is misleading. Anyone with a brain listens for as many results on as many benchmarks as possible, and tries to fit that to what what he/she knows they'll use the box for. >Second of all, referring to the underlined phrase: Not even in Steve Jobs' >wettest dreams. The 040's fast, but it's no RISC. Uh-oh, another True Believer. I can assure you that a properly built 25MHz '040 system with decent compilers and runtime libraries will outperform a SPARCstation 1 on a wide variety of benchmarks, and bench equal to a 1+. 33 and 50MHz '040s are a block or so down the road. Yes, I know any handful of other RISCs will eat an '040 for breakfast, etc, etc -- my point is that RISC is only a philosophy, not a guarantee. A properly-built CISC can run rings round a poorly-built RISC. The '040 is a properly-built CISC. Who *CARES* which religious persuasion the underlying silicon holds to, if it delivers better performance? Pay attention to the facts, not the marketing dross. >Yes, friends, a $3000 option. And guess what? You can't upgrade a >NeXTstation to a NeXTstation Color... I observe that [a] the Mac managed to do quite well for years without color (with an icky 9" screen, too), and [b] for a lot of applications, a decent resolution grey-scale is good enough. Besides, "They" said you couldn't put a hard-drive in the original Macs; who's to say that if the NeXTstation is a big-hit, that some enterprising 3rd party won't come up with a way to retrofit color onto the basic slabs.. -- "I feel lightheaded, Sam. I think my | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com brain is out of air. But it's kind of | The Apollo Systems Division of a neat feeling..." -- Freelance Police | Hewlett-Packard
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) (10/16/90)
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) writes: >>Yes, friends, a $3000 option. And guess what? You can't upgrade a >>NeXTstation to a NeXTstation Color... > I observe that [a] the Mac managed to do quite well for years without >color (with an icky 9" screen, too), and [b] for a lot of applications, a >decent resolution grey-scale is good enough. Besides, "They" said you >couldn't put a hard-drive in the original Macs; who's to say that if the >NeXTstation is a big-hit, that some enterprising 3rd party won't come up >with a way to retrofit color onto the basic slabs.. And by then, what will the 3000 have stuck in it? If you're gonna gamble, gamble both ways. With a bus for all kinds of extras, and a color monitor from square one... Out of curiosity, what are the ties between Jobs and Apple (ie. for one, he had to use the black hole, had to include a 100mg HD). Is NeXT allowed to mass market? I heard somewhere that they could'nt until some date. Of course, I'm usually wrong anyway :-) Bye, Doug -- ---------------------------------//------------------------------------- Doug Dyer Clemson University // Check Is In The Mail (HeeHeeHaaHaa) ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu \\ // AMIGA3000 -----------------------------\X/----------------------------------------
amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) (10/16/90)
The one thing I despise the most is to try to solve a speed problem by throwing a faster processor at it. This is the fix for slow windows operation on an I**. It is now the fix for the NeXT and it's slow display! Dosen't anybody try and write fast code any more? (Yes, I do see the need for faster processors, but people seem to use this fix to much!) Paul
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/16/90)
In article <38267@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes a lot of downbeat stuff about the NeXT. Look, it's not just for students any more. I don't know about it not coming with Mathematica, they're probably bundling Lotus Improv instead. Here are some real advantages of the NeXT over those other workstations: (a) It doesn't run native BSD UNIX (AKA kitchen sink). They still run the standard stuff under BSD emulation, but new drivers and services don't have to go into the kernel. (b) It's not running Ecch Windows. For people actually interested in getting work done instead of hacking, this is a huge improvement. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of playing "what does this mouse button do in this application". > First of all, if I ever needed a reason to dislike Steve Jobs, I've got one > now. Using (M)isleading (I)ndications of (P)rocessor (S)peed has got to be > one of the most dishonest ways to benchmark a computer. So why pick on Steve Jobs for that? Does this mean you hate his opposite numbers at Sun, DEC, MIPS, etc... as well? > Second of all, referring to the underlined phrase: Not even in Steve Jobs' > wettest dreams. The 040's fast, but it's no RISC. It's more than that. 040+DSP+better O/S. > No color for this model. If your primary output device is videotape, color is vital. If it's a laserprinter, color is a distraction. > These people are afraid of Multimedia... The NeXT is *shipping* multimedia mail, and it works. For them Multimedia is a productivity tool, not the main application. > For the price, I'd buy a Toaster... The Toaster and NeXTdimension are completely different products with different markets. The Toaster is a video processing board for TV resolution images. The NeXTdimension is a Postscript accelerator and high-res display card. Comparing the two is like comparing a Porsche 911 and a Mercedes Benz. Now I get to comment two levels up: > >I think this really is the beginning of a new era, just as PCs brought down > >the price of individual computing, this will bring down the cost of > >individual multi-media... The Amiga created the multimedia market, really. And it's a lot less than the NeXT. I'm not sure that the NeXT is that good for the sort of TV-class stuff the Amiga excells at, but it's a lot better at getting everyday multimedia on people's desks. Not for production work, but just to help them get their everyday work done. Superior e-mail and financial projection software, not Digiview and Sculpt-4d. The NeXT is very like a high-end Amiga... and it *does* do a lot of stuff a lot better than Ami. Some stuff Ami does better. But apart from the Amiga UNIX offering they're in completely different markets. They're complementary, not competition. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/16/90)
In article <38292@ut-emx.uucp> amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) writes: > The one thing I despise the most is to try to solve a speed problem by > throwing a faster processor at it. This is the fix for slow windows > operation on an I**. It is now the fix for the NeXT and its slow display! What slow display? It's at least as fast as any equivalent workstation. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
cring@hpihoah.cup.hp.com (Craig Ring) (10/17/90)
Greg Harp writes about the new NeXT computers: > Yes, friends, a $3000 option. And guess what? You can't upgrade a > NeXTstation to a NeXTstation Color... The new bottom of the line NeXTstation is not color. But why would you want to pay for color if you don't need it? Color is rarely useful for spreadsheets and word processing. If these are the primary uses for the machine, an 1120 x 832 grey-scale display is probably all you need. No one wants to pay for "features" that are of no use to them. Color is available if you want it. The $3000 is the difference in list prices. It is closer to $1900 with educational discounts, and includes more RAM. >>A brand new NeXTdimension LIST PRICE is $14k, about 1/3 to 1/4 >>the price of comparable ANYTHINGs, workstations, personal IRISes, PCs with all >>those extra boards, etc. > >For the price, I'd buy a Toaster... Granted the NeXTDimension might (MIGHT) >have better performance. Then again, since I haven't seen them side by >side, I could be wrong about the performance being ANY better... NeXTdimension has very impressive performance. It includes an i860 RISC graphics co-processor, and a dedicated JPEG image compression processor, allowing real-time compression and decompression to hard disk. This means video from a hard disc! NeXTdimension provides 32-bit color, and can display any of these colors on any of the pixels on an 1120 x 832 pixel display. That's tough to do on an Amiga. As far as speed, I saw the Wizard of Oz being played in a window in full color with full windowing operations going on including clipping. That means while the video was playing, you could grab the window and move it around, or pull other windows on top of it without affecting the video in any way. NeXTdimension has Closed-caption, TeleText, and VITC support, and includes composite video, S-VHS, and RGB inputs. Video output is genlocked to input video source. While the Wizard of Oz was playing in one window, clicking on a "grab" button produced a nother window with the frame "grabbed" for use in a paint program instantly. How much would it cost to make an Amiga do these things? Amigas are supposed to be the platform of choice for desk-top video, but they are sorely limited in resolution and number of colors. A complete NeXTdimension system including monitor and disc is around $9000 with an educational discount. Craig Ring cring@hpihoah.cup.hp.com
netnews@ccc.amdahl.com (Jonathon L. Jenkins) (10/17/90)
/* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */
gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (10/17/90)
In article <38292@ut-emx.uucp>, amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) writes: |> The one thing I despise the most is to try to solve a speed problem by throwing |> a faster processor at it. This is the fix for slow windows operation on an I**. |> It is now the fix for the NeXT and it's slow display! Dosen't anybody try and |> write fast code any more? (Yes, I do see the need for faster processors, but |> people seem to use this fix to much!) |> |> Paul Well, they have done several things actually. On the NeXTDimension, they have a separate computer executing the Color Postscript stuff, thus offloading stuff from the main processor (040). Version 2.0 of the OS is revamped and much more efficient. In all, the display stuff is faster. One thing that I wish Commodore had done for Intuition is incorporated jump scrolling support in their windows. Do a type in a shell window, and it scrolls pitifully slowly. See ya, Ralph gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu gilgalad@zip.eecs.umich.edu gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ralph_Seguin@ub.cc.umich.edu gilgalad@sparky.eecs.umich.edu USER6TUN@UMICHUB.BITNET Ralph Seguin | "You mean THE Zaphod Beeblebrox?" 536 South Forest | Apartment 915 | "No. Haven't you heard, I come in six packs!" Ann Arbor, MI 48104 | (313) 662-4805
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (10/17/90)
In article <1990Oct16.201359.29059@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: >One thing that I wish Commodore had done for Intuition is incorporated >jump scrolling support in their windows. Do a type in a shell window, >and it scrolls pitifully slowly. Yes, yes, yes, yes.... [in emulation of a certain "bit" in TRON] David Navas navas@sim.berkeley.edu "Excuse my ignorance, but I've been run over by my train of thought." -me
joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (10/17/90)
I don't fell that the NeXT has a big student base since the hardware can cost you big $$$$ and the software isn't that cheap. (Isn't Improv $1000? There's no WAY I'd pay that much for a spreadsheet, unless: 1) It was REALLY good and I was confident that I wouldn't need another for the net 10 years. 2) IT comes with a whole bunch of other little goodies, like deveopment tools, or a worksheet compiler, etc. 3) I was on Steve Job's daily salary. :) -Joseph Hillenburg UUCP: ...iuvax!valnet!joseph ARPA: valnet!joseph@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu INET: joseph@valnet.UUCP
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (10/17/90)
In article <6813@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <38292@ut-emx.uucp> amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) writes: >> The one thing I despise the most is to try to solve a speed problem by >> throwing a faster processor at it. This is the fix for slow windows >> operation on an I**. It is now the fix for the NeXT and its slow display! >What slow display? It's at least as fast as any equivalent workstation. I have to agree with the original poster. The Cube with system 1.0 seemed to me about as slow as a Sun 3/50 running SunView. I find that kind of performance pretty hard to accept, since the NeXT is clocked at twice the speed of a 3/50, and the processor itself should be so much faster at a given clock rate. When I first heard about the NeXT cube, I thought to myself, "wow, this is gonna be one Hot machine! 25 MHz 68030, 68882, DSP, 12 channel DMA! Cool!" The reality left me completely underwhelmed. Reading the propaganda for the new NeXTStations, I found myself thinking, "wow, this sounds really hot!" But, I believe I have to have faith that Steve Jobs will once again take wonderful hardware and mire it down in terrible software. He's been doing it since the days of the Apple III and Lisa; I'm sure he will continue. -- -- Howard Chu @ University of Michigan one million data bits stored on a chip, one million bits per chip if one of those data bits happens to flip, one million data bits stored on the chip...
torrie@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Evan James Torrie) (10/17/90)
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) writes: >In article <6813@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>In article <38292@ut-emx.uucp> amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) writes: >>> The one thing I despise the most is to try to solve a speed problem by >>> throwing a faster processor at it. This is the fix for slow windows >>> operation on an I**. It is now the fix for the NeXT and its slow display! >>What slow display? It's at least as fast as any equivalent workstation. >The reality left me completely underwhelmed. Reading the propaganda for the >new NeXTStations, I found myself thinking, "wow, this sounds really hot!" >But, I believe I have to have faith that Steve Jobs will once again take >wonderful hardware and mire it down in terrible software. He's been doing it >since the days of the Apple III and Lisa; I'm sure he will continue. At a recent meeting, Bud Tribble (NeXT Software Engineer and former Mac software engineer) stated something along the lines of "I believe that 80-90% of a computer's power should be used to run the user interface. With a 15 MIPS computer, we still have a few cycles left over to do some work". (Whether you agree with him or not is another matter of course) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "The All Blacks? Who are they? - some plebian
gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (10/19/90)
In article <f2ou02gZ02Q501@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com writes: >Now let's see if I wanted a comprable Mac system I could buy well???? >Nothing because none of them have 68040 chips in them. Same with >Atari, and Amiga. IBM(clones) are a different story because they >do have i486 which is equal in perf. to a 68040. The 486 is nowhere near the 68040 in performance. Commodore and Apple will be coming out with their own 040 boxes. I think I will wait to see what they come out with before I purchase my NeXT (pun intended 8-) machine! I want to get a machine with 68040, megapixel color display, UNIX and BIG hard drive (all for nothing 8-)! I hope that Commodore can deliver the package that I want for a good price. People should also note that NeXT is seriously backordered on the NeXTs and will only start production in November. If you order now, you can expect to get your machine sometime after January (and the 16000+ people that ordered machines before you). >The NeXT comes with lots of software and some damn good hardware and it >has performance that is better than a Sparc. Depends on the SPARC. >The NeXT also has IB which is terrific if you want to roll your own >software. Also who says there are no applications for the NexT. There >is about 400Mb of FREE; that't right FREE software ditributed Lighthouse >Designs called The First Compilation and it has a $125.00 media fee. >Included is X11 and some other things for MIDI, complete GNU stuff, and >a lot more. This is true. The IB is beautiful. I hope that we get something like it for the Amiga. I see the quality of Amiga products improving at a dramatic rate. > Kent. See ya, Ralph gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ralph Seguin | "You mean THE Zaphod Beeblebrox?" 536 South Forest | Apartment 915 | "No. Haven't you heard, I come in six packs!" Ann Arbor, MI 48104 | (313) 662-4805
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/19/90)
In article <1990Oct17.020736.6223@math.lsa.umich.edu> hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) writes: > >What slow display? It's at least as fast as any equivalent workstation. > I have to agree with the original poster. The Cube with system 1.0 seemed to > me about as slow as a Sun 3/50 running SunView. Oh come on. The only slow thing I noticed was program startup. I have no idea why it takes so long to launch a program, but once it's up it's zippy. Where Sun drags a window by dragging a crosshatch outline (much like the Amiga) NeXT manages to drag the whole window in real time. Other actions are similarly quick. It's as fast as any Sun running X. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
andrey@astride.cs.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew) (10/19/90)
Before all the Amiga owners get panicky over the $3300 NeXTstation,
they should know certain things.
On 18 Oct 90 17:54:03 GMT, kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) said:
KLS> Now let's see if I wanted a comprable Mac system I could buy well????
KLS> Nothing because none of them have 68040 chips in them. Same with
KLS> Atari, and Amiga. IBM(clones) are a different story because they
KLS> do have i486 which is equal in perf. to a 68040.
This is not necessarily true. It all depends on what you want to do.
KLS> The NeXT comes with lots of software and some damn good hardware and it
KLS> has performance that is better than a Sparc.
This is also not true. Again, it depends on what you want your
computer to do.
KLS> The NeXT also has IB which is terrific if you want to roll your own
KLS> software. Also who says there are no applications for the NexT. There
KLS> is about 400Mb of FREE; that't right FREE software ditributed Lighthouse
KLS> Designs called The First Compilation and it has a $125.00 media fee.
KLS> Included is X11 and some other things for MIDI, complete GNU stuff, and
KLS> a lot more.
Remember that the basic NeXTstation does not come with any compilers.
True, you get a license to all of NeXTstep 2.0, but you're going to have to
somehow get that software onto your NeXT, and try to shoehorn the stuff you
need onto the disk. Also, isn't the Lighthouse compilation on optical disks?
The basic NeXTstation at $3300 does not have an optical drive. Adding an
optical drive would drive the cost up severely. It's a nice letter writing
machine at $3300, but has close to no programming functionality.
Andre Yew
KLS> --
KLS> /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */
KLS> /* For I can only express my own opinions. */
KLS> /* */
KLS> /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */
--
andrey@through.cs.caltech.edu Andre Yew
131.215.128.1
--gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (10/19/90)
>> I have to agree with the original poster. The Cube with system 1.0 seemed to >> me about as slow as a Sun 3/50 running SunView. >Oh come on. The only slow thing I noticed was program startup. I have no idea >why it takes so long to launch a program, but once it's up it's zippy. Where >Sun drags a window by dragging a crosshatch outline (much like the Amiga) >NeXT manages to drag the whole window in real time. Other actions are similarly >quick. Yeah! I wish that they had that on Intuition! Hmmm... I don't seem to notice too much of a problem with applications starting up (speedwise that is). Are you loading off of the magneto-optical? I'm using a 660, and things are quite snappy. Also, you might want to go up from the piddly 8 megs that comes standard. 16 gives you enough space to keep paging down, and 32 is just plain great. Ohhh, one more thing, NeXT applications are HUGE. Simple applications can run over a meg easily (just like X stuff). >It's as fast as any Sun running X. Ummmm... Sun 4/380? I doubt that 8-) How about RS/6000 Station 730? >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. See ya, Ralph gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ralph Seguin | "You mean THE Zaphod Beeblebrox?" 536 South Forest | Apartment 915 | "No. Haven't you heard, I come in six packs!" Ann Arbor, MI 48104 | (313) 662-4805
bartonr@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Robert L Barton) (10/19/90)
Isn't there a NeXT group where these things can be posted?
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/19/90)
In article <1990Oct19.080037.13261@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: > Yeah! I wish that they had that on Intuition! Hmmm... I don't seem to > notice too much of a problem with applications starting up (speedwise > that is). Go into Mail and click open a sample. It takes quite a while to load the voice player. All the program loads are slow. And this was on a standard NeXTstation with the 100M, and a NeXT cube with a 660. The 8 Megs might not be enough... reasonable diagnosis. But overall display speed is quite adequate. It's up to Amiga speeds, where most X systems seem more like an 8-color Mac-II. > >It's as fast as any Sun running X. > Ummmm... Sun 4/380? I doubt that 8-) How about RS/6000 Station 730? I haven't seen those, but they're quite a bit more expensive. It's also slower than the Intergraph with its accelerated graphics. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (10/19/90)
So when will we get a NeXT emulator for the Amiga? Maybe when we have a 68040 board? I wonder how the 3000 would do? Let's see the emulators so far are: Mac AppleII (running under Amax) Atari ST BBC (British computer) IBM CP/M Timex (I believe I saw someone post that there is one of these) Commodore 64 About the only ones I think we are missing so far are: CoCo, TI/99, Atari 800, NeXT, SUN and Sun Sparc, Pixar, Iris, PDP-11s, Vaxen, and Crays (and a few other esoteric workstations and super computers). Let's get cracking guys! I wanna Cray PC. -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
SCK@ibm.com (10/20/90)
>>It's as fast as any Sun running X. >Ummmm... Sun 4/380? I doubt that 8-) How about RS/6000 Station 730? ||| Excuse me, but if you want real speed from an RS/6000, why not choose the 540 which is 41.1 MIPS ( No flames on use of MIPS please) compared to the 730 which is only 34.5 MIPS. Not to mention the 540 has more slots for memory. X windows runs faster on the 540 anyhow due to the speed differences in the graphics boards, it just can't display 16.7 million colors. >>-- >>Peter da Silva. `-_-' >><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. >Ralph Seguin | "You mean THE Zaphod Beeblebrox?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scott C. Kennedy (SCK @ YKTVMV) | (QP06 @ PACE) High Performance Computing Environment | Computer Science Dept. I.B.M. Thomas J. Watson Research Facility | Pace University ------------------------------------------------------------------------ RS/6000 makes a great fileserver to an Amiga 2500!! I love NFS!!!!
S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) (10/20/90)
On 19 Oct 90 08:00:37 GMT you said: >>> I have to agree with the original poster. The Cube with system 1.0 seemed to >>> me about as slow as a Sun 3/50 running SunView. > >>Oh come on. The only slow thing I noticed was program startup. I have no idea >>why it takes so long to launch a program, but once it's up it's zippy. Where >>Sun drags a window by dragging a crosshatch outline (much like the Amiga) >>NeXT manages to drag the whole window in real time. Other actions are >similarly >>quick. Funny, the NeXT that I have toyed with was plain slow all the way around. The mouse pointer jumps, the windows jump while dragging them, the icons have no names so you have no idea what you are running. Great B/W display a little fuzzy though. Applictions started slow. Once you had the program started I guess it was pretty usable, but the wait was incredible. >Yeah! I wish that they had that on Intuition! Hmmm... I don't seem to >notice too much of a problem with applications starting up (speedwise >that is). Are you loading off of the magneto-optical? I'm using >a 660, and things are quite snappy. Also, you might want to go up >from the piddly 8 megs that comes standard. 16 gives you enough >space to keep paging down, and 32 is just plain great. Ohhh, Oh come now, 32 megs? What a ridiculous amount of memory. It takes 32 megs for a NeXT to run quickly? I have 4 megs on my 3000 and it's quite snappy. Who has the money to buy 32 megs of memory? Kinda reminds me of the 500 syndrome to an extreme. It comes with 512k but to do anything with a 500 you have to get the 512k expansion to 1 meg. When you start talking 16 megs and 32 megs, you have already priced it out of the home market by leaps and bounds. That just seems to be a total waste of memory. When I first read this I thought it was a joke. But you are quite serious. >one more thing, NeXT applications are HUGE. Simple applications >can run over a meg easily (just like X stuff). I won't say anything about this. SIMPLE applications on the Amiga are around 10k. >Ralph Seguin | "You mean THE Zaphod Beeblebrox?" >536 South Forest | >Apartment 915 | "No. Haven't you heard, I come in six packs!" >Ann Arbor, MI 48104 | >(313) 662-4805 When a system NEEDS 16 megs to run properly there is something QUITE wrong if that system is to be considered any kind of home computer. I just wonder what market this system is trying to hit. I mean the Amiga can run and multitask to some degree on 1 meg. On 4 megs it's just about right. You put 8 on there and you'd run out of chip ram before you'd run out of fast. 16 megs and who knows what you could do. Put 32 megs on it and ??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================= ||NeXT- (nekst) N. The only PC to have sold less than 10,000 units and || || not be considered a flop. || ||------------------------------------------/ /------------------------|| ||---Brian Wright | / / || ||---s36666wb@etsuacad.etsu.edu | \ \/ / Only Amiga || ||---Commercial Artist and Amigaphile| \/\/ Makes It Possible!! || =======================================================================
torrie@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Evan James Torrie) (10/20/90)
S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) writes: >>Yeah! I wish that they had that on Intuition! Hmmm... I don't seem to >>notice too much of a problem with applications starting up (speedwise >>that is). Are you loading off of the magneto-optical? I'm using >>a 660, and things are quite snappy. Also, you might want to go up >>from the piddly 8 megs that comes standard. 16 gives you enough >>space to keep paging down, and 32 is just plain great. Ohhh, >Oh come now, 32 megs? What a ridiculous amount of memory. It takes >32 megs for a NeXT to run quickly? I have 4 megs on my 3000 and it's >quite snappy. Who has the money to buy 32 megs of memory? Kinda Is your 3000 with 4 megs running Unix? Does it have demand-paged virtual memory? Please compare apples to apples... Wait till the A3000UX comes out and then compare. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "To tell the truth, I'm absolutely buggered" - Peter Jones
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/20/90)
In article <34029@nigel.ee.udel.edu> S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) writes: > When a system NEEDS 16 megs to run properly I found it quite acceptable at 8 Megs. > there is something QUITE wrong if > that system is to be considered any kind of home computer. It's not a home computer. It's a personal computer. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) (10/21/90)
On 20 Oct 90 01:25:17 GMT you said: >S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) writes: > > Is your 3000 with 4 megs running Unix? Does it have demand-paged virtual >memory? Please compare apples to apples... Wait till the A3000UX comes out >and then compare. Thanks, but no thanks. UNIX is a Dinosaur that has become the trendy operating system as of late. It can and will consume every last amount of memory that you throw at it. Why anyone would need 32 megs on a home computer is beyond me. I don't even think that the HP UNIX machines we have here on campus have more than 8 and certainly not more than 16 megs. > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"To tell the truth, I'm absolutely buggered" - Peter Jones ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================= ||NeXT- (nekst) N. The only PC to have sold less than 10,000 units and || || not be considered a flop. || ||------------------------------------------/ /------------------------|| ||---Brian Wright | / / || ||---s36666wb@etsuacad.etsu.edu | \ \/ / Only Amiga || ||---Commercial Artist and Amigaphile| \/\/ Makes It Possible!! || =======================================================================
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (10/21/90)
In article <34088@nigel.ee.udel.edu> S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) writes: > Why anyone would need 32 megs on a home computer is beyond me. This is a red herring. Yes, it's a damn shame that all systems don't still run in 64K. I'm bummed out that you can't run 2.0 in a 1000... how dare it use all that memory! Why, the 256K in the original 1000 should be enough for anyone! Crap. The fact that it's over $2000 kills it as a home computer. Of course, that also kills your Amiga 3000. Why $2000? That's about the most disposable income you can expect an average middle-class working stiff to come up with, short of taking out a loan. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (10/22/90)
torrie@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Evan James Torrie) writes: [about why the NeXT just _has_ to have 32 Megs...] > Is your 3000 with 4 megs running Unix? Does it have demand-paged virtual >memory? Please compare apples to apples... Wait till the A3000UX comes out >and then compare. No, but my 3b1, with 2 Megs, is running Unix with demand paged virtual memory. Goes pretty good, too, for just a 68010 :-) -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org ( Staff OACIS) (10/22/90)
In article <34088@nigel.ee.udel.edu> S36666WB%ETSUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu (Brian Wright) writes: >Thanks, but no thanks. UNIX is a Dinosaur that has become the trendy operating "Unix is a dinosaur, CPM and MSDOS are toys! Only OS-1 will survive!" OS-1? What's that :-) :-) Anybody else remember this? -- John Meissen .............................. Oregon Advanced Computing Institute jmeissen@oacis.org (Internet) | "That's the remarkable thing about life; ..!sequent!oacis!jmeissen (UUCP) | things are never so bad that they can't jmeissen (BIX) | get worse." - Calvin & Hobbes
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (10/29/90)
In article <3411@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: > >Let's see the emulators so far are: > >Mac >AppleII (running under Amax) >Atari ST >BBC (British computer) >IBM >CP/M >Timex (I believe I saw someone post that there is one of these) >Commodore 64 Add a CBM 8032 emulator to the list. It is existing, though not publicly released (but I have a copy from the author :-). -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (11/02/90)
>In article <3411@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: >>Timex (I believe I saw someone post that there is one of these) My error. It's the Sinclair Spectrum that is emulated. not the timex (I was thinking Timex-Sinclair) -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
rblewitt@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Richard Blewitt) (11/04/90)
In article <3443@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: > >>In article <3411@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: >>>Timex (I believe I saw someone post that there is one of these) > >My error. It's the Sinclair Spectrum that is emulated. not the timex >(I was thinking Timex-Sinclair) > The Timex-Sinclair 2068, and the ZX Spectrum were practally the same computer, the 2068 just had a few extras thrown in. Rick Blewitt rblewitt@ucsd.edu