yarnall@opusc.csd.scarolina.edu (Ken Yarnall) (10/20/90)
Fresh from the omnipresent `reliable source,' I have garnered the following
hot and spicy rumor (so good, it's bad): Commodore has, ready for sale, a
de-interlacer/scan doubler for the 2000/2500. Price $295. I honestly trust
the source, who says he recalls the name of the beast to be the A2320 (but
that could be incorrect). He even called someone at C= to verify this rumor
when he heard it, and was told it was available a couple of days ago. He was
further informed that it did not take up the video slot, though the way it
avoided this was unclear.
Anyone care to (respond to|back up|refute|complain about) this? I would be
fairly happy were this the case. The price seems close to reasonable,
depending on the street price, and I guess it will go on the educational
discount list. But, is it correct that I cannot buy this board through the
ed. program alone, that one must purchase a CPU with any order? I did buy
my computer through the ed, program, but I did so months ago. If this is the
policy, has a decent explanation of it been given?
Inquiring minds and all that jazz,
-ken
--
Ken Yarnall /// yarnall@opusc.csd.scarolina.EDU
Math Department, USC \\\/// yarnall@ucseast.UUCP
Columbia, S.C. 29208 \\\/ (803)777-5218
`You'd better tie me up.' -- from the movie, "Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down"bscott@isis.cs.du.edu (Ben Scott) (10/23/90)
In article <1990Oct20.035558.9158@opusc.csd.scarolina.edu> yarnall@opusc.csd.scarolina.edu (Ken Yarnall) writes: >Fresh from the omnipresent `reliable source,' I have garnered the following >hot and spicy rumor (so good, it's bad): Commodore has, ready for sale, a >de-interlacer/scan doubler for the 2000/2500. Price $295. I honestly trust >the source, who says he recalls the name of the beast to be the A2320 (but I have had a spec sheet on this for a few weeks. I haven't heard anything about it from anywhere else, including here, which seems odd. And I don't know anything about availability or price. I just picked it up at a store. But from the specs it seems to be just an Amber chip on a card for the 2000. >that could be incorrect). He even called someone at C= to verify this rumor >when he heard it, and was told it was available a couple of days ago. He was >further informed that it did not take up the video slot, though the way it >avoided this was unclear. Well, it says on my sheet that it does live in the video slot and I can't see any kind of passthrough (though how they'd do it I can't imagine) in the photo. If anyone needs full info on this I guess I could be persuaded to mail or even post the specs from the sheet but basically they pretty much match the specs for the Amber chip on the 3000. . <<<<Infinite K>>>> -- |Ben Scott, professional goof-off and consultant at The Raster Image, Denver| |FIDO point address 1:104/421.2, bscott@nyx.cs.du.edu, or BBS (303)424-9831 | |"Quantum Mechanics: The dreams that || The Raster Image IS responsible for| | stuff is made of..." - Michael Sinz || everything I say! ** Amiga Power**|
yarnall@opusc.csd.scarolina.edu (Ken Yarnall) (10/24/90)
In article <1990Oct23.091814.17000@isis.cs.du.edu> bscott@isis.UUCP (Ben Scott) writes:
+
+I have had a spec sheet on this for a few weeks. I haven't heard anything
+about it from anywhere else, including here, which seems odd. And I don't
+know anything about availability or price. I just picked it up at a store.
+But from the specs it seems to be just an Amber chip on a card for the 2000.
Seems odd to me, too. I fail to recall ever having heard a true rumor about
the Amiga from some source besides c.s.a, long before c.s.a got its teeth
into it.
+Well, it says on my sheet that it does live in the video slot and I can't
+see any kind of passthrough (though how they'd do it I can't imagine) in
+the photo.
At least one of the people my friend talked to muttered something very
befuddling about an external video connector, or some such nonsense. I
hypothesize that this particular person has a monitor port and a video slot
confused.
+If anyone needs full info on this I guess I could be persuaded to mail or
+even post the specs from the sheet but basically they pretty much match
+the specs for the Amber chip on the 3000.
What I guessed. I have now talked to someone who has sold this beastie,
though not in the US. My dealer called to order a couple, and was told that
everyone was off at a sales meeting. I guess that means everyone is gonna
get fired again in C= sales and marketing...isn't that what sales meetings
are for at Commodore?
+. <<<<Infinite K>>>>
-ken
--
Ken Yarnall /// yarnall@usceast.cs.scarolina.EDU
Math Department, USC \\\/// yarnall@ucseast.UUCP
Columbia, S.C. 29208 \\\/ (803)777-5218
`You'd better tie me up.' -- from the movie, "Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down"stan@phx.mcd.mot.com (Stan Fisher) (10/24/90)
> >I have had a spec sheet on this for a few weeks. I haven't heard anything >about it from anywhere else, including here, which seems odd. And I don't >know anything about availability or price. I just picked it up at a store. >But from the specs it seems to be just an Amber chip on a card for the 2000. > >Well, it says on my sheet that it does live in the video slot and I can't >see any kind of passthrough (though how they'd do it I can't imagine) in >the photo. > >If anyone needs full info on this I guess I could be persuaded to mail or >even post the specs from the sheet but basically they pretty much match >the specs for the Amber chip on the 3000. > This being the second posting to substantiate the existance of a de-interlacer from Commodore has gotten my appetite really wetted for this thing!! I checked my local dealer and he basically says "uhh... yeah.. maybe by 3rd Quarter '91... uh they might have something.. uuh.. we haven't been notified yet of it's existance." What's the deal? Is this a product? Can I buy it? When/where? I sure hope so! This would put the competition into the flicker fixer market. At Ami-expo I saw a couple of flicker-fixer's competition boards coming out by a couple of different companies but they were pricing theirs right up there with MicroWays board. If this board comes out for $295 list, then I tip my hat to Commodore. Can someone at Commodore please comment? Stan Fisher - stan@teroach.phx.mcd.mot.com - asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!stan Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Arizona - Voice (602) 438-3228
dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) (10/25/90)
In article <13876@mcdphx.phx.mcd.mot.com> teroach!stan@phx.mcd.mot.com (Stan Fisher) writes: > >This being the second posting to substantiate the existance of a >de-interlacer from Commodore has gotten my appetite really wetted for this >thing!! I checked my local dealer and he basically says "uhh... yeah.. maybe >by 3rd Quarter '91... uh they might have something.. uuh.. we haven't been >notified yet of it's existance." > What a bunch of crap. Sorry, I shouldn't criticize the guy. I called my dealer yesterday (Slipped Disk, Southfield, MI (313)357-7272)) and they said they had a bunch in and one left. I told them to hold it for me until today and I'll be picking it up this afternoon. It exists, but I have to wonder if Commodore is trying to keep their products a secret even AFTER they're for sale. Maybe the new hush-hush policy is a bit too tight... > Stan Fisher - stan@teroach.phx.mcd.mot.com - asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!stan > Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Arizona - Voice (602) 438-3228 -- Dan Cogswell | You can shoot me now, INET: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu | or wait till you get home. BITNET: dlcogswell@oakland | HAIRNET: <fill-in dumb joke> |
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (10/25/90)
In article <13876@mcdphx.phx.mcd.mot.com> teroach!stan@phx.mcd.mot.com (Stan Fisher) writes: >> >>I have had a spec sheet on this for a few weeks. I haven't heard anything >>about it from anywhere else, including here, which seems odd. And I don't >>know anything about availability or price. I just picked it up at a store. >>But from the specs it seems to be just an Amber chip on a card for the 2000. >> >>Well, it says on my sheet that it does live in the video slot and I can't >>see any kind of passthrough (though how they'd do it I can't imagine) in >>the photo. >> >>If anyone needs full info on this I guess I could be persuaded to mail or >>even post the specs from the sheet but basically they pretty much match >>the specs for the Amber chip on the 3000. >> > > >This being the second posting to substantiate the existance of a >de-interlacer from Commodore has gotten my appetite really wetted for this >thing!! I checked my local dealer and he basically says "uhh... yeah.. maybe >by 3rd Quarter '91... uh they might have something.. uuh.. we haven't been >notified yet of it's existance." > >What's the deal? Is this a product? Can I buy it? When/where? > >I sure hope so! This would put the competition into the flicker fixer >market. At Ami-expo I saw a couple of flicker-fixer's competition boards >coming out by a couple of different companies but they were pricing theirs >right up there with MicroWays board. If this board comes out for $295 >list, then I tip my hat to Commodore. > >Can someone at Commodore please comment? > > Stan Fisher - stan@teroach.phx.mcd.mot.com - asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!stan > Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Arizona - Voice (602) 438-3228 Yes, the A2320 is a real product and the dealers (US) should be getting the marketing spec sheets and price lists within two weeks. The US price is suggested to be $299. This is basically the same display enhancer circuitry as in the A3000 but as a plugin card for 2000 owners. You should be able to get them from the dealers when they get the sheets. Also, AmigaWorld magizine will be running a review of the A2320 in a future issue - so life gets more interesting again!! Europe and Canada should already be selling these so they are available worldwide. Enjoy! Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/26/90)
In article <15387@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: >Yes, the A2320 is a real product and the dealers (US) should be getting >the marketing spec sheets and price lists within two weeks. The US >price is suggested to be $299. This is basically the same display The product is already available in the U.S. My local dealer has it. Unfortunately, they decided to make up a list price of $369 to make their $275 price seem cheap, which is probably illegal as they are a dealer, but it IS available. > >-- >-- >Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com > "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!" -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
phil@adam.adelaide.edu.au (Phil Kernick) (10/26/90)
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: >Yes, the A2320 is a real product and the dealers (US) should be getting >the marketing spec sheets and price lists within two weeks. The US >price is suggested to be $299. This is basically the same display >enhancer circuitry as in the A3000 but as a plugin card for 2000 owners. >You should be able to get them from the dealers when they get the >sheets. Also, AmigaWorld magizine will be running a review of the A2320 >in a future issue - so life gets more interesting again!! Europe and >Canada should already be selling these so they are available worldwide. Does worldwide include Australia. I was talking to the Australian marketing manager for C= on Wednesday (A3000UX release demo), and she knew nothing of th A2320, and said that just because it was being released in the US did not mean that it would ever make it over to Oz. Also, are there 2 versions of the card, a PAL one and an NTSC version? Could somebody post the specs or email them to me or something? Thanks, Phil. -- Phil Kernick EMail: phil@adam.adelaide.edu.au Departmental Engineer Phone: +618 228 5914 Dept. of Psychology Fax: +618 224 0464 University of Adelaide Mail: GPO Box 498 Adelaide SA 5001
jim@syteke.be (Jim Sanchez) (10/26/90)
The answer to this may be obvious to everyone but me but here goes
anyway. Does this thing (A2320) work in BOTH ntsc and pal modes? I
have a PAL machine but use it in NTSC mode from time to time. I do
have a multi-sync monitor (NEC 3D) so that is not an issue. Before I
buy one in the US I want to be SURE it works on my PAL system.
Thanks
--
Jim Sanchez | jim@syteke.be (PREFERRED)
Hughes LAN Systems | OR uunet!mcsun!ub4b!syteke!jim
Brussels Belgium | OR {sun,hplabs}!sytek!syteke!jim
--
Jim Sanchez | jim@syteke.be (PREFERRED)
Hughes LAN Systems | OR uunet!mcsun!ub4b!syteke!jim
Brussels Belgium | OR {sun,hplabs}!sytek!syteke!jimpeck@ral.rpi.edu (Joseph Peck) (10/26/90)
In article <15387@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: >Yes, the A2320 is a real product and the dealers (US) should be getting >the marketing spec sheets and price lists within two weeks. The US >price is suggested to be $299. This is basically the same display >enhancer circuitry as in the A3000 but as a plugin card for 2000 owners. >You should be able to get them from the dealers when they get the >sheets. Also, AmigaWorld magizine will be running a review of the A2320 >in a future issue - so life gets more interesting again!! Europe and >Canada should already be selling these so they are available worldwide. > Is there an educational price yet? I demonstrated my amiga to a friend and now he wants to get a 2000. Since he wants to do some 640*400 plots, the de-interlacer would be helpful. So, any numbers yet? >Enjoy! > >Scott Hood > >-- >-- >Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com > "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!" Joe Peck peck@ral.rpi.edu
clemon@lemsys.UUCP (Craig Lemon) (10/27/90)
In a message posted on 25 Oct 90 16:09:25 GMT,
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) wrote:
SH>Yes, the A2320 is a real product and the dealers (US) should be getting
SH>the marketing spec sheets and price lists within two weeks. The US
SH>price is suggested to be $299. This is basically the same display
SH>enhancer circuitry as in the A3000 but as a plugin card for 2000 owners.
SH>--
SH>Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
What about the A2320 should convince the comsumer to buy it instead
of the FlickerFixer? What makes it better? (Except the price). The price
itself makes one wonder.
---
--
Craig Lemon - Kitchener, Ontario. Amiga B2000/10--2400 bps--AmigaUUCP 1.03D
clemon@lemsys.UUCP or lemsys!clemon@xenitec.on.ca
....!{uunet}!watmath!xenitec!lemsys!clemonFelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) (10/27/90)
The latest Amazing has an article about the CBM flickerfixer. Dana Bourgeois @ cup.portal.com
tinyguy@quiche.cs.mcgill.ca (Yeo-Hoon BAE) (10/28/90)
In article <13876@mcdphx.phx.mcd.mot.com> teroach!stan@phx.mcd.mot.com (Stan Fisher) writes: >> >>I have had a spec sheet on this for a few weeks. I haven't heard anything > >Can someone at Commodore please comment? > > Stan Fisher - stan@teroach.phx.mcd.mot.com - asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!stan > Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Arizona - Voice (602) 438-3228 I heard from a good source saying that he saw the de-interlacer in one of the dealers in Montreal. If it's here already, I'm sure it's available in US too. It's price was $450Ca, which means it will probably sell it for under $300US in the States. I'll check it out with my own eyes on Monday... *************************************************************************** * Yeo-Hoon Bae * Amiga /// * * Dept. Computer Science, McGill University. * 2000 /// * * tinyguy@calvin.cs.mcgill.ca, tinyguy@quiche.cs.mcgill.ca * \\\/// * * Amiga2000 + 3MB + 48MB HD + KX-P1124 + DiamondScan * \XX/ * ***************************************************************************
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (10/28/90)
In article <1654@syteke.be> jim@syteke.be (Jim Sanchez) writes: >The answer to this may be obvious to everyone but me but here goes >anyway. Does this thing (A2320) work in BOTH ntsc and pal modes? I >have a PAL machine but use it in NTSC mode from time to time. I do >have a multi-sync monitor (NEC 3D) so that is not an issue. Before I >buy one in the US I want to be SURE it works on my PAL system. > >Thanks >-- >Jim Sanchez | jim@syteke.be (PREFERRED) >Hughes LAN Systems | OR uunet!mcsun!ub4b!syteke!jim >Brussels Belgium | OR {sun,hplabs}!sytek!syteke!jim >-- Yes, the A2320 will work in both PAL and NTSC machines automatically - and you can change modes under AmigaDOS 2.0 if you have the 8372A new one meg Agnus chip which all A2000s have been shipping with over a year ago. The A2320 is a video slot card (half card in size, same size as the MicroWay FlickerFixer as well as most other video slot style cards). This card has not gotten alot of press due to other cards and machines that Commodore has recently rolled out, so even some of our dealers and sales people may not know about it just yet. The US dealers should be getting their sales information inside of two weeks (just in time for Christmas!) so keep bugging them about it if you want one (and I hope you all want one!). Enjoy! Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (10/28/90)
In article <3465.656985754@lemsys.UUCP> clemon@lemsys.UUCP (Craig Lemon) writes: >In a message posted on 25 Oct 90 16:09:25 GMT, >hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) wrote: >SH>Yes, the A2320 is a real product and the dealers (US) should be getting >SH>the marketing spec sheets and price lists within two weeks. The US >SH>price is suggested to be $299. This is basically the same display >SH>enhancer circuitry as in the A3000 but as a plugin card for 2000 owners. >SH>-- >SH>Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > > What about the A2320 should convince the comsumer to buy it instead >of the FlickerFixer? What makes it better? (Except the price). The price >itself makes one wonder. > > >--- >-- > Craig Lemon - Kitchener, Ontario. Amiga B2000/10--2400 bps--AmigaUUCP 1.03D > clemon@lemsys.UUCP or lemsys!clemon@xenitec.on.ca > ....!{uunet}!watmath!xenitec!lemsys!clemon Speaking as the designer of the A2320 Display Enhancer I can tell you several benifits the A2320 has over the MicroWay product over and above the price. First, the A2320 has FULL overscan support for BOTH PAL and NTSC displays (768x489 for NTSC and 768x576 for PAL), then there is the automatic switching of de-interlacing of interlaced images to when in interlace mode to scan-doubling of non-interlaced images when in non-interlace modes that results in NO video artifacts (ghosting or smearing) which is a real plus for scrolling display, games, etc. There is also automatic genlock support (both for NTSC and PAL genlocks) such that if an external genlock is connected to the Amiga (and is meets our guidelines for how a genlock should interface with the Amiga) the A2320 will de-interlace the Amiga's reference RGB output to provide a flicker free display. The A2320 also works with the new ECS graphics modes such as the `Productivity' mode by automatically sensing this mode and bypassing the Amiga generated 31.5Khz video to the multiscan monitor connected to the A2320's video output connector. This allows the A2320 to work with this mode without moving cables or removing the video card as you might have to do with the MicroWay product. The card also has a user controlled bypass switch that allows you to manually do the bypassing of the video data for the ECS `Superhires' modes or any other graphics modes that you desire to bypass to the monitor. This also allows you to do a before and after enhancing effect so you can see what a difference the A2320 can make on your graphics screens! The A2320 also can automatically switch between PAL and NTSC video modes so that the card can more fully support AmigaDOS 2.0. The lower cost is due to the very high intergration of the AMBER gate array and the special video memorys that only recently have become available. I hope that this answers your questions, and sorry for the sloppy typing! Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer @ Wit's End) (10/29/90)
In article <15436@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes:
=-
=-Yes, the A2320 will work in both PAL and NTSC machines automatically -
=-and you can change modes under AmigaDOS 2.0 if you have the 8372A new
Since the 2320 uses Amber, does it exhibit the same top scan line
flicker as the 3000 deinterlacer?hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (10/30/90)
In article <235@mohawk.cs.utexas.edu> bryan@cs.utexas.edu writes: >In article <15436@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: >=- >=-Yes, the A2320 will work in both PAL and NTSC machines automatically - >=-and you can change modes under AmigaDOS 2.0 if you have the 8372A new > > Since the 2320 uses Amber, does it exhibit the same top scan line >flicker as the 3000 deinterlacer? Yes, the A2320 does exhibit the same top 1/3 scan line flicker as the A3000, but with the Commodore 1950 multiscan monitor (and some others) you can adjust the vertical and horizontal sizing controls to put the black boarder behind the monitor's faceplate and not see the top line flicker. This may not be the best solution, but it works! I am looking into this further... Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org ( Staff OACIS) (10/30/90)
In article <15437@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes:
[long list of 2320 features deleted]
I hope all of this is documented (unlike quite a few products I know of) :-)
--
John Meissen .............................. Oregon Advanced Computing Institute
jmeissen@oacis.org (Internet) | "That's the remarkable thing about life;
..!sequent!oacis!jmeissen (UUCP) | things are never so bad that they can't
jmeissen (BIX) | get worse." - Calvin & Hobbesronkko@cc.helsinki.fi (10/31/90)
In article <15450@cbmvax.commodore.com>, hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: > Yes, the A2320 does exhibit the same top 1/3 scan line flicker as the > A3000, but with the Commodore 1950 multiscan monitor (and some others) > you can adjust the vertical and horizontal sizing controls to put the > black boarder behind the monitor's faceplate and not see the top line > flicker. This may not be the best solution, but it works! I am looking > into this further... What exactly are these 'some other (monitors)'?! Because Commodore 1950 is not available everywhere (and maybe will never be in Finland;-), this information would be most valuable for many of us ... > Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com > "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!" -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reijo Ronkko University of Helsinki, Dept. of General Microbiology, Mannerheimintie 172, 00300 Helsinki, FINLAND Fax +358-0-4735426 Ronkko@cc.helsinki.fi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer @ Wit's End) (11/01/90)
In article <15450@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes:
=-
=-Yes, the A2320 does exhibit the same top 1/3 scan line flicker as the
=-A3000, but with the Commodore 1950 multiscan monitor (and some others)
=-you can adjust the vertical and horizontal sizing controls to put the
=-black boarder behind the monitor's faceplate and not see the top line
=-flicker. This may not be the best solution, but it works! I am looking
=-into this further...
=-
Sure, it works, but if one uses full vertical overscan, then the top
corners of the display disappear behind the rounded corners of the bezel. The
1950 doesn't, as far as I could tell, have a proportional horizontal size
control that would allow the picture to be narrowed just enough to make up for
this. The horizontal size switch is much too coarse an adjustment. In any
case one shouldn't have to fiddle with knobs to make up for an inadequate
deinterlacing algorithm.
If, as has been suggested, this top scan line flicker is an artifact of
NTSC, there must still be a way to overcome the problem, since the flickerFixer
does not behave in the same way. Perhaps it throws away the first scan line in
every odd field. This would seem to be a reasonable solution, and I wouldn't
expect the marginal cost of the extra logic to do this to be large, though I'll
certainly defer to the opinions of people who actually design these things.etxtomp@eos.ericsson.se (Tommy Petersson) (11/01/90)
In article <3793.272de4cc@cc.helsinki.fi> ronkko@cc.helsinki.fi writes: -In article <15450@cbmvax.commodore.com>, hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) -writes: - -> Yes, the A2320 does exhibit the same top 1/3 scan line flicker as the -> A3000, but with the Commodore 1950 multiscan monitor (and some others) -> you can adjust the vertical and horizontal sizing controls to put the -> black boarder behind the monitor's faceplate and not see the top line -> flicker. This may not be the best solution, but it works! I am looking -> into this further... - -What exactly are these 'some other (monitors)'?! Because Commodore 1950 is not -available everywhere (and maybe will never be in Finland;-), this information -would be most valuable for many of us ... - -> Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. -> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com -> "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!" --- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reijo Ronkko University of Helsinki, Dept. of General Microbiology, - Mannerheimintie 172, 00300 Helsinki, FINLAND - Fax +358-0-4735426 - - Ronkko@cc.helsinki.fi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A simpler method is ofcourse to put a thin stripe of black electrical tape (or whatever) at the top of the screen... Tommy Petersson
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (11/02/90)
etxtomp@eos.ericsson.se (Tommy Petersson) writes: |-> Yes, the A2320 does exhibit the same top 1/3 scan line flicker as the |A simpler method is ofcourse to put a thin stripe of black electrical tape |(or whatever) at the top of the screen... Eeee! How Tacky (pun intended :-) [I know, I know. I'll never make it as a comedian so I better STICK to my day job] -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (11/05/90)
In-Reply-To: message from etxtomp@eos.ericsson.se I found that if you'd go into your OVERSCAN preferences and position the settings box exactly ONE pixel below the top line, then you won't even notice the frag is there. This solution is just a tad more elegant than the black electrical tape :') Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | Dual A3000 based, custom Help keep the | computer graphics, RealWorld: Sean Cunningham competition // | animation, presentation, Voice: (512) 992-2810 under \X/ | simulation, accident- | scene re-creation, and "Does anyone remember laughter?" Robert Plant| recreation...(whew!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer @ Wit's End) (11/06/90)
In article <5463@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes:
=-
=-I found that if you'd go into your OVERSCAN preferences and position the
=-settings box exactly ONE pixel below the top line, then you won't even notice
=-the frag is there.
=-
That's fine for the workbench, but what do you think happens when some
program comes along and opens a custom screen without looking at the prefs?
You guessed it.
Every time this subject comes up, I ask why the C-A deinterlacer can't
handle the first scan line in whatever way the flickerFixer does. I've never
seen any answer to this. I'd just like to know whether the problem is due to a
design or manufacturing error, or is the deliberate result of some cost
reduction measure. In either case, is it with us forever?peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (11/06/90)
In article <239@mohawk.cs.utexas.edu> bryan@cs.utexas.edu writes: > (about the flickering first half line) > Every time this subject comes up, I ask why the C-A deinterlacer can't >handle the first scan line in whatever way the flickerFixer does. I've never >seen any answer to this. I'd just like to know whether the problem is due to a >design or manufacturing error, or is the deliberate result of some cos >reduction measure. In either case, is it with us forever? It has already been answered by one of the chip guys. The reason is the definition of an interlaced TV screen where the Amiga sticks to. In this norm one half picture starts in the upper left, but the other half picture starts with a half line at the top in the middle. And they obviously did their best to manage this also on the Amiga. So the question arises: What does flickerFixer put in there? To get an understanding for this half line, you must imagine that during a horizontal scan the vertical scan already and also is running, but much slower. So all lines are bent a little downwards (if you don't twist the tube). So for the second half picture to match perfectly inbetween the lines of the first half, they (TV norm definers) chose to start at the very top but offset by half a line horizontally. When you draw this on paper you will see, that this way you get a perfect interlacing of the two half pictures. And Amiga is dedicated to follow TV norms. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer @ Wit's End) (11/07/90)
In article <565@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes:
=-
=-It has already been answered by one of the chip guys. The reason is the
=-definition of an interlaced TV screen where the Amiga sticks to. In this
=-norm one half picture starts in the upper left, but the other half picture
=-starts with a half line at the top in the middle. And they obviously did
=-their best to manage this also on the Amiga.
Fine. That's what the interlaced output looks like. Now tell me why
the DEinterlaced output has to look like that. It's not going to an NTSC
monitor, after all.
=-So the question arises: What does flickerFixer put in there?
=-
=-To get an understanding for this half line, you must imagine that during
=-a horizontal scan the vertical scan already and also is running, but
=-much slower. So all lines are bent a little downwards (if you don't
=-twist the tube). So for the second half picture to match perfectly
=-inbetween the lines of the first half, they (TV norm definers) chose to
=-start at the very top but offset by half a line horizontally. When you
=-draw this on paper you will see, that this way you get a perfect
=-interlacing of the two half pictures. And Amiga is dedicated to follow
=-TV norms.
=-
I'm not sure I see your point here. To get rid of the flicker all you
have to do is suppress the RGB signals that light up the dots on the screen
during the first scan line of the odd field. You don't have to touch the synch
signals, which are what you're describing. All you're doing in this case is
throwing away some information that's useless anyway because of the flicker.drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (11/08/90)
>> (about the flickering first half line) >> Every time this subject comes up, I ask why the C-A deinterlacer can't >>handle the first scan line in whatever way the flickerFixer does. I've never >>seen any answer to this. I'd just like to know whether the problem is due to >>a design or manufacturing error, or is the deliberate result of some cost >>reduction measure. >> In either case, is it with us forever? >It has already been answered by one of the chip guys. The reason is the >definition of an interlaced TV screen where the Amiga sticks to. In this >norm one half picture starts in the upper left, but the other half picture >starts with a half line at the top in the middle. And they obviously did >their best to manage this also on the Amiga. >So the question arises: What does flickerFixer put in there? > >To get an understanding for this half line, you must imagine that during >a horizontal scan the vertical scan already and also is running, but >much slower. So all lines are bent a little downwards (if you don't >twist the tube). So for the second half picture to match perfectly >inbetween the lines of the first half, they (TV norm definers) chose to >start at the very top but offset by half a line horizontally. When you >draw this on paper you will see, that this way you get a perfect >interlacing of the two half pictures. And Amiga is dedicated to follow >TV norms. Yes, but what does the electron beam scan have to do with the problem? Whatever happens to the signal at the monitor isn't causing the 1/3 line flicker, the de-interlacer is. That means that the timing in the A2320 doesn't sync every frame until about 1/3 of the way into the first scan line. The lack of sync causes a variation from frame to frame that results in oposing information appearing as flicker. Obviously the FF overcomes this by syncing earlier or (more likely since I talked to the FF guy and this seems to be his technique for eliminating problems - i.e. garbage on the right edge) just covering the offending video with blanking. A similar solution for the A2320 would be reasonable (BTW, the FF displays "about 719 by 479 hi-res pixels", I wonder why :-). Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (11/08/90)
In article <1990Nov7.181228.3182@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu> drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >>> (about the flickering first half line) >>> Every time this subject comes up, I ask why the C-A deinterlacer can't >>>handle the first scan line in whatever way the flickerFixer does. I've never >>>seen any answer to this. I'd just like to know whether the problem is due to >>>a design or manufacturing error, or is the deliberate result of some cost >>>reduction measure. >>> In either case, is it with us forever? > >>It has already been answered by one of the chip guys. The reason is the >>definition of an interlaced TV screen where the Amiga sticks to. In this >>norm one half picture starts in the upper left, but the other half picture >>starts with a half line at the top in the middle. And they obviously did >>their best to manage this also on the Amiga. >>So the question arises: What does flickerFixer put in there? >> >>To get an understanding for this half line, you must imagine that during >>a horizontal scan the vertical scan already and also is running, but >>much slower. So all lines are bent a little downwards (if you don't >>twist the tube). So for the second half picture to match perfectly >>inbetween the lines of the first half, they (TV norm definers) chose to >>start at the very top but offset by half a line horizontally. When you >>draw this on paper you will see, that this way you get a perfect >>interlacing of the two half pictures. And Amiga is dedicated to follow >>TV norms. > >Yes, but what does the electron beam scan have to do with the problem? >Whatever happens to the signal at the monitor isn't causing the 1/3 >line flicker, the de-interlacer is. That means that the timing in >the A2320 doesn't sync every frame until about 1/3 of the way into the >first scan line. The lack of sync causes a variation from frame to >frame that results in oposing information appearing as flicker. >Obviously the FF overcomes this by syncing earlier or (more likely >since I talked to the FF guy and this seems to be his technique for >eliminating problems - i.e. garbage on the right edge) just covering >the offending video with blanking. A similar solution for the A2320 >would be reasonable (BTW, the FF displays "about 719 by 479 hi-res >pixels", I wonder why :-). > >Rick Tillery >(drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) I guess that I should put this one to rest once and for all. The problem is with the way that the Amber chip did the de-interlacing. It has nothing to do with beam position or sync or any other such infromation, but these are not unreasonable guesses! When the Amber chip was in development I did not think that this was such a bad artifact (I know, I know, how could one be so foolish!) and only a few people said anything about this flickering 1/2 line. By the way, it really is 1/2 of the total 910 (NTSC) or 908 (PAL) line, that is flickering, because of the position of active video in the line it appears to be only 1/3 of the line. It is possible to fix this `artifact' by changing part of the internal circuitry of Amber and work is under way to investage this. I can not say much about this for may reasons but your concerns are not going unheard! When it is appropriate for me to make further comments about this I will do so. Remember that most things are not cast in stone! Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) (11/08/90)
First off: I got my 2320 last week and after a week of use, I can say it's a decent board. I wish these people would quit complaining because a small portion of ONE line out of > 500 flickers a little. If you crank up the vertical size, you can't even see it! Heck, I got the thing for $100 less than a flickerFlixe. One question: (to Scott Wood, preferably) I'm using a Mitsu Diamondscan 14" with my 2320 and I cannot get the thing to expand it's horizontal size enough to get rid of the black border around the screen. It looks kinda bad compared to the 1950 (but appears sharper with better color saturation; sorry :-). Any advice on this one? (Take it slow: I'm a software guy...). Thanks... (And nice job on the board!) -- Dan
clemon@lemsys.UUCP (Craig Lemon) (11/10/90)
In a message posted on 7 Nov 90 22:03:45 GMT,
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) wrote:
SH>In article <1990Nov7.181228.3182@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu> drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes:
SH>>>> (about the flickering first half line)
SH>>>> Every time this subject comes up, I ask why the C-A deinterlacer can't
SH>>>>handle the first scan line in whatever way the flickerFixer does. I've never
SH>>>>seen any answer to this. I'd just like to know whether the problem is due to
SH>>>>a design or manufacturing error, or is the deliberate result of some cost
SH>>>>reduction measure.
SH>>>So the question arises: What does flickerFixer put in there?
SH>>Yes, but what does the electron beam scan have to do with the problem?
SH>>Whatever happens to the signal at the monitor isn't causing the 1/3
SH>>line flicker, the de-interlacer is. That means that the timing in
SH>>the A2320 doesn't sync every frame until about 1/3 of the way into the
SH>>first scan line. The lack of sync causes a variation from frame to
SH>>frame that results in oposing information appearing as flicker.
SH>>Obviously the FF overcomes this by syncing earlier or (more likely
SH>>since I talked to the FF guy and this seems to be his technique for
SH>>eliminating problems - i.e. garbage on the right edge) just covering
SH>>the offending video with blanking. A similar solution for the A2320
SH>>would be reasonable (BTW, the FF displays "about 719 by 479 hi-res
SH>>pixels", I wonder why :-).
SH>>
SH>>Rick Tillery
SH>>(drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
SH>I guess that I should put this one to rest once and for all. The
SH>problem is with the way that the Amber chip did the de-interlacing. It
SH>has nothing to do with beam position or sync or any other such
SH>infromation, but these are not unreasonable guesses! When the Amber
SH>chip was in development I did not think that this was such a bad
SH>artifact (I know, I know, how could one be so foolish!) and only a few
SH>people said anything about this flickering 1/2 line.
SH>
SH>Scott Hood
This is necessarily a reply directly to Scott. When I first heard
of the release of the A2230, I thought, "Great!, and look at the price!"
Now I'm wondering if it is so great. Is the general conensus that the FF
is much better than the A2230? Is this flickering problem ONLY on the
first scan line or does the whole screen flicker a bit? Are there any
other known problems with the A2230? What about colour etc...How does the
actual picture quality compare with the FF (should be exactly the same, I
know. I'm just making sure.)?
--
Craig Lemon - Kitchener, Ontario. Amiga B2000/10--2400 bps--AmigaUUCP 1.03D
clemon@lemsys.UUCP or lemsys!clemon@xenitec.on.ca
....!{uunet}!watmath!xenitec!lemsys!clemonhood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (11/11/90)
In article <3766.658255715@lemsys.UUCP> clemon@lemsys.UUCP (Craig Lemon) writes: >In a message posted on 7 Nov 90 22:03:45 GMT, >hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) wrote: >SH>In article <1990Nov7.181228.3182@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu> drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >SH>>>> (about the flickering first half line) >SH>>>> Every time this subject comes up, I ask why the C-A deinterlacer can't >SH>>>>handle the first scan line in whatever way the flickerFixer does. I've never >SH>>>>seen any answer to this. I'd just like to know whether the problem is due to >SH>>>>a design or manufacturing error, or is the deliberate result of some cost >SH>>>>reduction measure. > >SH>>>So the question arises: What does flickerFixer put in there? > >SH>>Yes, but what does the electron beam scan have to do with the problem? >SH>>Whatever happens to the signal at the monitor isn't causing the 1/3 >SH>>line flicker, the de-interlacer is. That means that the timing in >SH>>the A2320 doesn't sync every frame until about 1/3 of the way into the >SH>>first scan line. The lack of sync causes a variation from frame to >SH>>frame that results in oposing information appearing as flicker. >SH>>Obviously the FF overcomes this by syncing earlier or (more likely >SH>>since I talked to the FF guy and this seems to be his technique for >SH>>eliminating problems - i.e. garbage on the right edge) just covering >SH>>the offending video with blanking. A similar solution for the A2320 >SH>>would be reasonable (BTW, the FF displays "about 719 by 479 hi-res >SH>>pixels", I wonder why :-). >SH>> >SH>>Rick Tillery >SH>>(drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) > >SH>I guess that I should put this one to rest once and for all. The >SH>problem is with the way that the Amber chip did the de-interlacing. It >SH>has nothing to do with beam position or sync or any other such >SH>infromation, but these are not unreasonable guesses! When the Amber >SH>chip was in development I did not think that this was such a bad >SH>artifact (I know, I know, how could one be so foolish!) and only a few >SH>people said anything about this flickering 1/2 line. >SH> >SH>Scott Hood > > This is necessarily a reply directly to Scott. When I first heard >of the release of the A2230, I thought, "Great!, and look at the price!" >Now I'm wondering if it is so great. Is the general conensus that the FF >is much better than the A2230? Is this flickering problem ONLY on the >first scan line or does the whole screen flicker a bit? Are there any >other known problems with the A2230? What about colour etc...How does the >actual picture quality compare with the FF (should be exactly the same, I >know. I'm just making sure.)? > >-- > Craig Lemon - Kitchener, Ontario. Amiga B2000/10--2400 bps--AmigaUUCP 1.03D > clemon@lemsys.UUCP or lemsys!clemon@xenitec.on.ca > ....!{uunet}!watmath!xenitec!lemsys!clemon The flickering 1/3 line in on the top left-hand extreme corner and does not effect the rest of the display!! It is present in both NTSC and PAL interlace modes but not the non-interlace screen modes. The A2320 supports all 4096 colors of the Amiga, as many colors as the Amiga is capable of generating, which of course also works with the `Dymanic HiRes' modes of the Newtek (TM) Digaview device. As for picture quality there should be no differance, only more functionality for less money. I hope this helps! The A2320 also is available on the developer price list (not sure for how much though). Scott Hood (Check it out for yourself!) -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
jcs@crash.cts.com (John Schultz) (11/13/90)
In questions about which is better, the FlickerFixer or the 2320, the 2320 will properly handle X-Specs. This means you can get LC 3D on the Amiga with the scan lines filled in, which looks much better. The FlickerFixer, although it handles the first scan line correctly, does not work with X-Specs, or any other LC 3D multiplex scheme. I have a FlickerFixer and had to wire up a switch box (another $50) to switch between Amiga Video and FlickerFixed Video. So, for those interested in stereo 3D on the Amiga, the 2320 is your best bet. John
stan@phx.mcd.mot.com (Stan Fisher) (11/14/90)
> In questions about which is better, the FlickerFixer or the 2320, the >2320 will properly handle X-Specs. This means you can get LC 3D on the Amiga >with the scan lines filled in, which looks much better. The FlickerFixer, >although it handles the first scan line correctly, does not work with X-Specs, >or any other LC 3D multiplex scheme. I have a FlickerFixer and had to wire * stuff deleted * > John That's very interesting... I assumed that the two boards performed de-interlacing similarly. Why would X-specs work on the 2320 and not the flicker-fixer? Maybe Scott can shed a technical light on this topic (or John for tht matter). I've got a set of Sega LCDs that I hacked into X-spec compatibles, so this is an important consideration for my de-interlacer decision (I've already pretty much decided to get the 2320 anyway. ;^)) stan Stan Fisher - stan@teroach.phx.mcd.mot.com - asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!stan Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Arizona - Voice (602) 438-3228
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (11/15/90)
In-Reply-To: message from clemon@lemsys.UUCP The top scanline "problem" doesn't happen on the flickerFixer because it can't handle screens of 480 pixels high. The top line artifact isn't found in just the Amiga. In my RTV class, all of our camera and studio moniters display the same thing. The moniters show you everything that goes on-air without borders. Viewers would never see this, just as they'd never see it in recorded Amiga screens. I still suggest having your menubar set one pixel down from the top...you'll never notice after that. Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | Dual A3000 based, custom Help keep the | computer graphics, RealWorld: Sean Cunningham competition // | animation, presentation, Voice: (512) 992-2810 under \X/ | simulation, accident- | scene re-creation, and "Does anyone remember laughter?" Robert Plant| recreation...(whew!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (11/16/90)
In article <14047@mcdphx.phx.mcd.mot.com> teroach!stan@phx.mcd.mot.com (Stan Fisher) writes: > >> In questions about which is better, the FlickerFixer or the 2320, the >>2320 will properly handle X-Specs. This means you can get LC 3D on the Amiga >>with the scan lines filled in, which looks much better. The FlickerFixer, >>although it handles the first scan line correctly, does not work with X-Specs, >>or any other LC 3D multiplex scheme. I have a FlickerFixer and had to wire >* stuff deleted * >> John > >That's very interesting... I assumed that the two boards performed >de-interlacing similarly. Why would X-specs work on the 2320 and not the >flicker-fixer? Maybe Scott can shed a technical light on this topic (or >John for tht matter). >I've got a set of Sega LCDs that I hacked into X-spec compatibles, so this >is an important consideration for my de-interlacer decision (I've already >pretty much decided to get the 2320 anyway. ;^)) > > stan > > Stan Fisher - stan@teroach.phx.mcd.mot.com - asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!stan > Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Arizona - Voice (602) 438-3228 I have not played with the 3-D stuff yet (sniff, sniff) but it may be to because the A2320 does the scan-doubling in Amiga non-interlaced display modes and the FlickerFixer (TM) only trys to de-interlace all the time. This may effect the 3-D effect since the LCD glasses open and close their shutters at the field rate and expect each field to be DIFFERENT and not de-interlaced together. That is only a guess though..... Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"