DLV101@psuvm.psu.edu (Dwaine VanBibber) (11/09/90)
I am planning to get rid of my clunky DOS box. I am considering purchasing one of the following: --NeXTstation 040 version --Amiga 3000UX when it arrives --Sun Sparcstation I'd like some objective opinions one the merits of these machines. I realize the 3000UX is not available yet, so this will be difficult. Here are my requirements: ---UNIX, Mathematica, TeX 3.0, C++ (AT&T 2.0), GNU stuff, lex, yacc, f2c, p2c ---Some GUI (no preference). If its big and clunky, a graphics processor ---Considerable raw processing power (the NeXT cube 030 is simply out of the question) ---Price is a big factor. I'm a student. $4000 ballpark ---MS-DOS emulation (hardware or software) is a MUST ---Standard UNIX tape drive + 3.5" ---Bus mastering architecture (if possible) ---I refuse to pay a lot for software ---The machine will primarily be used for software development (testing of data structures and algorithms and graphics work) and document preparation via FrameMaker and TeX. Color would be a plus since I do a lot of fractal programming. ---Monitor (800x600) 16" diagonal minimum ---I'm also a musician/composer, so MIDI would be a plus ---Need is not immediate, more like mid-January I could go for AmigaDOS if someone can convince me that the software development environment can be made very UNIX-like. Also, I don't want any problems getting UNIX apps to compile and run. I have enough problems with Mess-DOS and this stupid segmented architecture. I failed to mention that I'd like to have a postscript printer that (hopefully) can be run parallel rather than serial. Any good, objective opinions would be appreciated. This is not to be another stupid flame war. Any comments would be greatly appreciated, especially from those of you who have used more than one of the above machines. Thank you. --Dwaine
jjfeiler@nntp-server.caltech.edu (John Jay Feiler) (11/10/90)
DLV101@psuvm.psu.edu (Dwaine VanBibber) writes: >I am planning to get rid of my clunky DOS box. I am considering purchasing >one of the following: >--NeXTstation 040 version >--Amiga 3000UX when it arrives >--Sun Sparcstation >I'd like some objective opinions one the merits of these machines. I realize >the 3000UX is not available yet, so this will be difficult. Here are my >requirements: I'm also considering the purchase of two of the above three, (NeXT vs. A3000UX) so I thought I'd add my $.02 >---UNIX, Mathematica, TeX 3.0, C++ (AT&T 2.0), GNU stuff, lex, yacc, f2c, p2c 3000UX: full s5r4 unix, forget mathemaitca, maple is much better for research. (I've heard some very good things about Maple V). Radicel Eye (Tomas Rokicki) has most of TeX 3.0 proted, so I've heard. The previewer for AmigaTeX is one of the BEST. ANYWHERE, ANY MACHINE! Lattice has C++ 1.2a, and I talked to a guy from SAS at AmiExpo, who said that 2.0 will be available 2nd q '91. Also, Comeau (sp?) computing has announced a C++ 2.0 for the amiga, but I dno't know anything about supplied class libraries.... The GNU stuff is being ported even as wee speak. GNUEmacs and gcc are done, but shakey. G++ is in the works. lex and yacc hare already ported, I think. I dont know about f2c, but I'm pretty sure I heard that p2c is ported. NeXT: Mach, not UNIX, but close. Won't be able to take advantage of the "shrink-wrapped" unix binaries to be available soon..... Comes with Mathematica, TeX. Comes with Objective-C, which has its good and bad points compared to C++. C++ only allows compile time linking of objects, but I think that Objective-C allows runtime binding. Supposedly, G++ 2.0 will allow runtime binding. Release.... your guess or mine? I believe most GNU stuff is already ported, as well as lexx, yacc, etc. >---Some GUI (no preference). If its big and clunky, a graphics processor The Amiga GUI is quite nice, IMHO. 2.0 workbench is a VAST improvement over 1.3 It screams on an '030 machine. NeXT with an '030 is slow as a dog. The '040 NeXT's are supposed to be great. >---Considerable raw processing power (the NeXT cube 030 is simply out of the > question) A NeXT '040 vs. an AMiga with an '040 board --- probably a tossup. They'll probably both be available at the same time too. Even about the same price ('030 cube upgrade vs Amiga '040 card) >---Price is a big factor. I'm a student. $4000 ballpark If that $4000 is firm, forget the NeXT. The cheapest Color NeXT Educational price I've seen is about $5700, with a 105 meg HD, no optical drive, no printer, 2.88M floppy, monitor, 8M ram. We still have virtually nothing as to the price of the a3000UX, bu I've heard projections of about $4500 total EduDisc., but I think $5000 is more likely. >---MS-DOS emulation (hardware or software) is a MUST Well, you can get a bridgeboard for the amiga, and run MS-DOS in parallel. I think that there is a SoftPC for the NeXT. This doesn't matter much to me. >---Standard UNIX tape drive + 3.5" >---Bus mastering architecture (if possible) ????? I don't have any idea. >---I refuse to pay a lot for software From what I've seen, Amiga software is considerably cheaper than for the NeXT. FrameMaker for NeXT and Mac cost the same, and we know how expensive Mac software is. Maple for the Amiga costs $395 Edu Disc. Lotus Improv will list for $695 for the NeXT, if you don't get it by Dec. 31. I don't have much in the way of direct comparisons. >---The machine will primarily be used for software development (testing of > data structures and algorithms and graphics work) and document preparation > via FrameMaker and TeX. Color would be a plus since I do a lot of fractal > programming. iBoth would be good for this, i guess. Again, color NeXT gets pricey. >---Monitor (800x600) 16" diagonal minimum Both Edu. packages come with monitors, as far as I know. The standard amiga color monitor resolution is 640x400 NTSC w/o overscan. 7xx by 5xx overscan. Next monitors are Megapixels, something like 1200x800. I'm not sure exactly. The Amiga monitor is about 13" diag, but you can always get a bigger monitor. If you don't mind grayscale, the "Hedley" Monitor gives you 1280x800 2-plane on an Amiga. >---I'm also a musician/composer, so MIDI would be a plus Quite a bit of MIDI stiff is available for the AMiga. Dr. T's KCS is very good, though I'm no expert. The NeXT has a built-in 56001 DSP, which allows for some fun. There are DSP boards avail. for the Amiga, but they are a bit expensive.... >---Need is not immediate, more like mid-January Well, delivery of the '040 NeXTs is expected about then, assuming that Motorola gets around to shipping some '040s. I've heard that the A3000UX might be released as soon as Comdex next week, but this is only RUMOR!!!! At any rate, I expect to see it before January. >I could go for AmigaDOS if someone can convince me that the software >development environment can be made very UNIX-like. The amiga dev environment is already similar to that of unix. If you have a A3000UX, it IS unix! I have heard that the recently posted curses library works quite well, removing many of the impediments to unix porting. > Also, I don't want any >problems getting UNIX apps to compile and run. I have enough problems with >Mess-DOS and this stupid segmented architecture. I failed to mention that >I'd like to have a postscript printer that (hopefully) can be run parallel >rather than serial. Any good, objective opinions would be appreciated. This >is not to be another stupid flame war. Any comments would be greatly >appreciated, especially from those of you who have used more than one of the >above machines. Thank you. >--Dwaine Well, I've said enough. If anybod else has any CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms of either machine, I'd like to hear them. Both machines have their good and bad points. "Make up your own mind....after youv'e considered all the reasonable possibilities...." John Feiler
knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) (11/10/90)
Can't say that my opinions are completely objective, since I'm a NeXT software developer, but here's my two bit worth. jjfeiler@nntp-server.caltech.edu (John Jay Feiler) writes in a comparison of the NeXT and Amiga: >NeXT: Mach, not UNIX, but close. Won't be able to take advantage of the >"shrink-wrapped" unix binaries to be available soon..... NeXT has 4.3BSD Unix with a Mach kernel. 4.3BSD Unix is considered by many to be the most complete and powerful Unix around. It is also the most popular in academic computing. The Mach kernel has facilities for things like parallel processing. Which "shrink-wrapped" unix binaries do you refer to? The NeXT should be able to run most 4.3BSD unix binaries. > [the NeXT] comes with Objective-C, which has its good and bad points >compared to C++... The NeXT now comes with a C/C++/Objective-C compiler. You can compile straight C++ code with this compiler. >I believe most GNU stuff is already ported, as well as lex, yacc, etc. Yep, all the standard GNU stuff is there on the NeXT, including emacs. lex, yacc, sed, etc. also all come standard with 4.3BSD Unix and the NeXT. DLB101@psuvm.psu.edu (Dwaine VanBibber) writes: >>Price is a big factor. I'm a student $4000 ballpark. If color is not absolutely essential, you can get a NeXT and some extra hardware for this sum of money. A 400 dpi NeXT laser printer is around $1200-1300 with an educational discount. A NeXTstation is $3000-$3500, depending on the school. >MS-DOS emulation is a MUST SoftPC will be available in February for the NeXT. It claims 100% MS-DOS compatibility, and I hear it will run MS-DOS software as fast as a decent 286 machine. [To be continued...our system's going down for maintenance]
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (11/10/90)
To follow up a bit more on NeXT and Amiga Unix request: Amiga UNIX comes with industry-standard tape drive. Don't know about NeXT. I'd suggest using a keyboard with MIDI if you're really interested in computer music; don't mess with the computer sound chip, however good. IMHO, of course. Thom
laughlin@fornax.UUCP (Bob Laughlin) (11/10/90)
The choice between a NeXT and an Amiga is an interesting one.
I've had an Amiga for 4 years (first a 1000 then a 2000) and
have been working on a NeXT for the last 4 months (sound synthesis).
They both have definite and generally non-overlapping pros and cons.
The 030 NeXT I've been using is slow at times (not always). I've NEVER
waited 5 seconds for an icon to hilight on the Amiga (even a 68000)
but you tend to run more things at once on the NeXT, and even if you
don't there will be more things running anyway.
Waiting 20 seconds for an application to open is tiresome on a
fast harddrive (330 meg) equipped computer. A 68000 Amiga loads
the 300K of Dpaint3 off my Quantum in less than 2 seconds. Speed is
being fixed with 040 NeXTs which will bring it up to a hopefully
acceptable level. Even 2.0 on an 030 really speeds up the screen display.
The NeXT is driving a lot of software and it shows. Theres also
all that swapping going on with virtual memory.
The NeXT display is elegant and well thought out. Workbench 1.3
is truly embarrassing. I never use it. The NeXT is a pleasure to use
for its GUI and 2.0 is a big improvement. The Amiga has its own
2.0 and from what I've seen its terrific. The 1kx1k pixels on the
NeXT make multitasking a lot easier. I don't miss color at all when
I'm being productive but I love DigiViewing in 4096+ colors on the
Amiga. I think you'd eventually want color on the NeXT but you
can't upgrade the grayscale NeXTStation. A 105 meg harddrive
NeXTStation would be virtually useless as a stand-alone unit. You
need an Ethernet connection or a bigger harddrive, or an optical :<
A really good example of whats good about the Amiga is DigiView.
$400 for a real blast and a truly useful tool. Amiga SW (and in this
case HW) is cheaper for sure, but NeXT has got the big software
companies involved (and probably fascinated) right from the start.
Its no surprise to me that major players like Lotus would develop for
an installed base of 15,000 NeXT's versus the half million U.S. Amigas.
The game machine syndrome, the cheesy TV ads, the legendary Commodore
management ineptitude <==> versus the professional street-smarts
of Steve Jobs AND a truly innovative machine.
The Amiga enthusiasts (and obviously the Commodore guys that frequent
the net are in that category) are what made the Amiga whatever success
it is; not commercially (the games did that) but as a serious machine.
Arexx is a good example. IPC on the NeXT is simple and always available.
The NeXT guys didn't have to grow into the hardware. The system software
is just as elegant and innovative, if not more.
The strongest point for the NeXT IMHO is the development environment.
Its a dream. I love Objective-C and Interface Builder (for quick
prototyping mostly). I've also written large programs for the Amiga.
Intuition and the graphics library arn't bad and from what I've heard
much better than Macs and IBM equivalents. How the Mac got all that
gorgeous software is a mystery to some people. And 2.0 is supposed to
make gadget fiddling easier on the Amiga. All NeXTs have a DSP,
one of many ways that its on the cutting edge.
Amigoids should be proud to be considered competition for the NeXT.
The NeXT marketing-persons' idea of competition is no-doubt Macs and Suns
(at least the NeXT should get Sun to focus on decent interfaces
and more elegant software, and Apple to re-assess the strategy of charging
too much for machines that run terrific idiot-proof software).
For some of us though the real competition for the NeXT is the Amiga.
I greatly admire Steve Jobs for doing so many innovative things with
the NeXT. I wish the optical had worked out. I considered getting
a NeXT recently but got a GVP 33mHz 030 with 4 megs instead for my aging
68000 2000---it screams. I took into consideration all the SW/HW I'd
acquired with the Amiga, and cost---030 was much cheaper. If I had to make
the choice of a NeXT or Amiga without already owning one I'd probably
get a NeXT. But you'd have to be a gambler (I was when I got the Amiga).
It could fail and you'll wait and wait for new software. But if you just
wanted terrific software irregardless of anything else you'd get a Mac
anyway. In many ways the NeXT is like the Amiga was in '85 only a lot
better. But thats to be expected.
--
Bob Laughlin laughlin@cs.sfu.ca knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) (11/11/90)
[this is continued from my previous post] DLV101@psuvm.psu.edu (Dwaine VanBibber) writes: > [want a machine with] Standard UNIX tape drive... The NeXT supports SCSI-II (backward compatible with SCSI-I with $7 adaptor). Basically, any tape drive you can run on a 4.3BSD Unix system, you can run on a NeXT with little difficulty. 8 mm Exabytes seem to be popular with NeXT users. >I refuse to pay a lot for software Mathematica comes free with the NeXT for educational users. A nice word processor, a great spreadsheet, and a lot of other useful stuff comes free with the NeXT. NeXT software, though, seems to be at least as pricey as Mac software. However, there's a growing library of freeware and shareware. The Amiga, of course, has much more software available today. But the situation can change, especially in the business software area. >The machine will primarily be used for software development (testing of >data structures and algorithms and graphics work) and document >preparation via FrameMaker and TeX. Color would be a plus since I do >a lot of fractal programming. NeXT color will take you up beyond $5000 with educational discount. But it is nice and quick color on a 16" Megapixel Sony Trinitron. For programming, the NeXT is simply wonderful. For graphics applications, NeXT's Display PostScript is a nice plus. The DSP chip has features for matrix and array processing. TeX comes free on the NeXT. FrameMaker will set you back a bit. >Monitor(800x600) 16" diagonal minimum The standard NeXT megapixel display is 17" with 1120x832 resolution at 2 bits/pixel. It comes included with the computer. The color monitor is the 16" megapixel Sony Trinitron I mentioned above. It has the same resolution as the gray monitor. The color monitor is included with the color machine. >I'm also a musician/composer, so MIDI would be a plus The NeXT has a DSP chip, a DSP port, a microphone jack, a built-in mic, a SCSI port, and two serial ports. So it has all the hardware you'd need. The DSP stuff also allows you to do CD quality sound and music. For the programmer, there are Sound and Music objects in the AppKit, the toolbox of objects used to build programs. There is a significant body of public domain sound and music software for the NeXT. You'll have to wait until First Quarter 1991 for commercial software though. First Chair, a MIDI and sound sequencer should be available, as should MusicProse by Coda for music publishing and composition (it will also support real-time MIDI input and playback). Hope this info helps to make your decision.
jjfeiler@nntp-server.caltech.edu (John Jay Feiler) (11/12/90)
knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) writes: >Can't say that my opinions are completely objective, since I'm a NeXT >software developer, but here's my two bit worth. >jjfeiler@nntp-server.caltech.edu (John Jay Feiler) writes in a >comparison of the NeXT and Amiga: >>NeXT: Mach, not UNIX, but close. Won't be able to take advantage of the >>"shrink-wrapped" unix binaries to be available soon..... >NeXT has 4.3BSD Unix with a Mach kernel. 4.3BSD Unix is considered by many ^^^^^^^ but not all... >to be the most complete and powerful Unix around. It is also the most >popular in academic computing. The Mach kernel has facilities for things >like parallel processing. A strong point in favor of NeXT. See below. >Which "shrink-wrapped" unix binaries do you refer to? The NeXT should be >able to run most 4.3BSD unix binaries. One of the big selling points of AT&T S5R4 Unix, (supposedly a confluence of AT&T and BSD) is a standard binary code format. In other words, one will be able to go into (instert national software store name) and by Jim's Boffo Application for 68030 Unix, and it will run on an amiga, or ANY OTHER MACHINE, BY ANY VENDOR, THAT HAS A 68030 AND RUNS S5R4. No more individual binaries for each machine. Unless NeXT conforms to this binary code standard, it will not be able to benifit from this large increase in software market, and consequent greater availability and quality of software. I happen to prefer the Mach kernel to the Unix kernel, but S5R4 is a big win in this respect. >> [the NeXT] comes with Objective-C, which has its good and bad points >>compared to C++... >The NeXT now comes with a C/C++/Objective-C compiler. You can compile >straight C++ code with this compiler. I stand humbly corrected. John Feiler
tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Todd L. Masco) (11/13/90)
I really hate to get into this discussion, but...
68030 binaries can be run on NeXT Mach after "atom"ing them, to change
from the a.out format to the mach format.
For about the last year, I've at various times taken Sun2 and 3
binaries, "atom"ed them, and run them, no problem.
By the way, I think I prefer the Amiga to the NeXT, and have probably
used the NeXT an order of magnitude more than the Amiga (I just bought
an old A500 a couple of weeks ago...) If a few months, I'll be faced
with buying either a NeXTStation or an A3000 (or maybe A4000, if it's
out by then) -- right now, I'm leaning to the A3/4000 choice
(Mathematica is the only really strong argument for the NeXT (I'm a
physicst), and Maple V may suffice... I'm not yet sure).
--
Todd L. Masco | tm2b+@{andrew.cmu.edu,andrew.bitnet} | "Boxes."joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (11/15/90)
Maple (and possibly now Mathematica) is no longer a real arguement for
the NeXT, since, as before mentioned, Maple V is almost done for the
Amiga. Wolfram Research is also looking into an Amiga port.
Joseph Hillenburg
Secretary, Bloomington Amiga Users Group
joseph@valnet.UUCP ...!iuvax!valnet!joseph
"Only Apple could slow down a 68000 chip." -Computer Shopperkutem@motcid.UUCP (Jon Kutemeier) (11/16/90)
tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Todd L. Masco) writes: >I really hate to get into this discussion, but... >68030 binaries can be run on NeXT Mach after "atom"ing them, to change >from the a.out format to the mach format. >For about the last year, I've at various times taken Sun2 and 3 >binaries, "atom"ed them, and run them, no problem. I think this works for Sun binaries that have been compiled under 3.5, not 4.0.x/4.1. Something to do with run-time linked libraries. Anyone care to substantiate this? [stuff deleted] >Todd L. Masco | tm2b+@{andrew.cmu.edu,andrew.bitnet} | "Boxes." -- Jon Kutemeier___________________________________________________________________ ------------------Software Engineer /XX\/XX\ phone:(708) 632-5433 Motorola Inc. Radio Telephone Systems Group ///\XX/\\\ fax: (708) 632-4430 1501 W. Shure Drive, Arlington Heights, IL 60004 uucp: !uunet!motcid!kutemj
korp@atlantis.ees.anl.gov (Peter Korp) (11/17/90)
In article <5308@berry12.UUCP> kutem@motcid.UUCP (Jon Kutemeier) writes: > >>For about the last year, I've at various times taken Sun2 and 3 >>binaries, "atom"ed them, and run them, no problem. > >I think this works for Sun binaries that have been compiled under 3.5, >not 4.0.x/4.1. Something to do with run-time linked libraries. Anyone >care to substantiate this? > That is correct, when the app tries to link to the run-time librarys it does not find what it needs. We still have one Sun3 at 3.5, and "atom" many apps to run them on the cube. > >-- >Jon Kutemeier___________________________________________________________________ >------------------Software Engineer /XX\/XX\ phone:(708) 632-5433 >Motorola Inc. Radio Telephone Systems Group ///\XX/\\\ fax: (708) 632-4430 >1501 W. Shure Drive, Arlington Heights, IL 60004 uucp: !uunet!motcid!kutemj Peter