vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM (Paul Vervalin) (10/31/90)
I'm posting this for a friend of mine interested in buying a computer. At
first he was interested in a MacIIsi but, I convinced him that he would
get more for his money by buying an A3000. He agreed, but then a guy on
campus told him about the NeXTStation, and he asked me which he should buy.
I know the following information:
A3000 NeXTStation
---------------------------------------------
25 MHz 68030 ? MHz 68040
100 Mb Harddrive 105 Mb Harddrive
880K Floppy 2.88K Floppy (I think)
5 Mb RAM 8 Mb RAM
MultiTasking ?
? Ethernet Built in
Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb)
Large S/W base Small S/W base
Cost: $3899 (edu. dis.) Cost: $3340 (edu. dis.)
This is all I know which IMHO makes them look pretty competitive. Is there
anything I can tell him to help him decide this "tie-breaker"? I just ordered
an A3000 which I'm certain was the right decision for me but, I need help
convincing him. Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
vervalin@austin.lockheed.comgeff@iastate.edu (Underwood Geoffrey Dale) (10/31/90)
In article <405@shrike.AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM> vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM (Paul Vervalin) writes: > >I'm posting this for a friend of mine interested in buying a computer. At >first he was interested in a MacIIsi but, I convinced him that he would >get more for his money by buying an A3000. He agreed, but then a guy on >campus told him about the NeXTStation, and he asked me which he should buy. >I know the following information: > A3000 NeXTStation >--------------------------------------------- > 25 MHz 68030 ? MHz 68040 25 MHz > 100 Mb Harddrive 105 Mb Harddrive > 880K Floppy 2.88K Floppy (I think) 2.8M (twice the capacity of the so-called 1.44M floppies found on IBMs, Macs, and some Suns) > 5 Mb RAM 8 Mb RAM > MultiTasking ? 4.3 BSD UNIX(tm) with a Mach kernel > ? Ethernet Built in ? Networkable windowing system (NeXTStep) > Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb) > Large S/W base Small S/W base ? Display PostScript color gray > Cost: $3899 (edu. dis.) Cost: $3340 (edu. dis.) > >This is all I know which IMHO makes them look pretty competitive. Is there >anything I can tell him to help him decide this "tie-breaker"? I just ordered >an A3000 which I'm certain was the right decision for me but, I need help >convincing him. Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks! > vervalin@austin.lockheed.com A 68040 is several times faster than a 68030. Interface Builder is very impressive. If I could buy a NeXT at the price you list, I would have done so by now (at this University, it's Apple, IBM, IBM clones, and possibly DEC). geff@iastate.edu
gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (11/01/90)
In article <405@shrike.AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM> vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM (Paul Vervalin) writes: > A3000 NeXTStation >--------------------------------------------- > 25 MHz 68030 ? MHz 68040 The NeXTStation's clock is 25 MHz. You might be interested to know that the 040 is not up to production quantities. It will be a long time before he will be able to get a machine even if he orders now. I called NeXT and was told that I would have to wait until at least Februrary (or later) before they could process all of their backorders and get around to me (if I were to order that is). When the 040 is up to production quantities, you will be able to take an 040 coprocessor board and stick it in your 3000 to really boost performance (the 040 is about 10 times as fast as an 882 in floating point, and several times faster in regular instructions) > 100 Mb Harddrive 105 Mb Harddrive > 880K Floppy 2.88K Floppy (I think) > 5 Mb RAM 8 Mb RAM > MultiTasking ? Absolutely. The NeXT does multitask. It is UNIX after all. > ? Ethernet Built in There are several makes of ethernet boards for the Amiga. > Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb) Well, the software you get for the NeXT is generally PD. There is a LOT of PD software for the Amiga as well. > Large S/W base Small S/W base > Cost: $3899 (edu. dis.) Cost: $3340 (edu. dis.) >This is all I know which IMHO makes them look pretty competitive. Is there >anything I can tell him to help him decide this "tie-breaker"? I just ordered >an A3000 which I'm certain was the right decision for me but, I need help >convincing him. Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks! > vervalin@austin.lockheed.com See ya, Ralph Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (11/01/90)
In article <1990Oct31.160214.2131@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: >In article <405@shrike.AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM> vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM (Paul Vervalin) writes: >> Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb) > >Well, the software you get for the NeXT is generally PD. There is a LOT >of PD software for the Amiga as well. > Since when are Lotus and Mathematica PD? They both come with the NeXT, although there is a time deadline (end of the year) for Lotus. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
coco@cbnewsl.att.com (felix.a.lugo) (11/01/90)
In article <405@shrike.AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM>, vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM (Paul Vervalin) writes: > > I'm posting this for a friend of mine interested in buying a computer. At > first he was interested in a MacIIsi but, I convinced him that he would > get more for his money by buying an A3000. He agreed, but then a guy on > campus told him about the NeXTStation, and he asked me which he should buy. > I know the following information: > A3000 NeXTStation > --------------------------------------------- > 25 MHz 68030 ? MHz 68040 ^^^ I believe it is also 25 MHz (???) > 100 Mb Harddrive 105 Mb Harddrive > 880K Floppy 2.88K Floppy (I think) ^^^ Correct > 5 Mb RAM 8 Mb RAM > MultiTasking ? ^^^ Very Multitasking (Mach/UNIX) > ? Ethernet Built in > Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb) ^^^ More, if he later obtains the extended package and a larger HD!!! > Large S/W base Small S/W base ^^^ NeXT is 2 years old versus 5 years for the Amiga!!! > Cost: $3899 (edu. dis.) Cost: $3340 (edu. dis.) > Tell him to buy a NeXT, I'm convinced that he would get more for his money!!!!! 8^) ------------ Felix A. Lugo coco@ihlpb.att.com
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) (11/01/90)
coco@cbnewsl.att.com (felix.a.lugo) writes: >> A3000 NeXTStation >> --------------------------------------------- >> 25 MHz 68030 ? MHz 68040 > ^^^ I believe it is also 25 MHz (???) >> 100 Mb Harddrive 105 Mb Harddrive >> 880K Floppy 2.88K Floppy (I think) > ^^^ Correct >> 5 Mb RAM 8 Mb RAM >> MultiTasking ? > ^^^ Very Multitasking (Mach/UNIX) >> ? Ethernet Built in >> Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb) > ^^^ More, if he later obtains the extended > package and a larger HD!!! >> Large S/W base Small S/W base > ^^^ NeXT is 2 years old versus 5 years > for the Amiga!!! >> Cost: $3899 (edu. dis.) Cost: $3340 (edu. dis.) >> And what of this? Get the A3000/16 and upgrade to a 68040 later! You get a bus, color, and loads of affordable software is available. A3000/16 is around $2500 on the ed. discount. 2 megs, 50 meg hd. If anyone has more information on upgrading the A3000 cpu slot, please let me know. I understand that if the CPU card has a clock on it, the hardware will run at that speed (25mhz)? Take the $800 and invest in some software. Be wary of memory and disk requirements for UNIX software. On the other hand, if you like grey and have deep pockets for UNIX, have use for the ethernet card (a waste for me) and really want UNIX now the NeXT looks good. One thing you might consider is that the A3000 has many chips to aid the CPU's task, so a CPU measurement might not be that accurate. The NeXT has things like that too, doesn't it? I guess your friend needs to decide what he or she needs the computer for. An Amiga suits my needs and then some. -- ---------------------------------//------------------------------------- Doug Dyer Clemson University // "Splunge!" - MP ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu \\ // -----------------------------\X/----------------------------------------
garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett) (11/01/90)
The 3000 is cheaper with educational pricing.
Two points which need to be mentioned is the Next's lack of color.
And seeming inability to upgrade to color, NeXt still hasn't said
that an upgrade route would be offered. Another thing that needs to be
brought out is that NeXt's system will not fit on the supplied hard
disk. You get the Unix variant MACH but not much else! You can't fit
the compiler and includes and you can't fit NeXt's famed software
development environment. All that free software is also not on the
hard drive, because of space limitations. You need at least a 200
- 300 meg hard drive to make the NeXt machine really fun to use. Once
you get the extra hard drive (and pay the extra money, NeXt wants over
$1000 for the bigger harddrive) the only way to get the rest of the system
is through NeXt. They will gladly send you an optical disk with the rest
of the system on it. But wait, the new NeXtstation doesn't have a built in
optical disk drives. So you need to be connected somehow to someone who
does or buy one. We wanted to connect the NeXtstation to a network of
sparc-stations in the lab. After all the Next has standard ethernet.
Welllll the NextStation has standard thin-wire ethernet. The suns here
use thick wire ethernet. Quick call to next, what should we do, Next's
answer "Buy a transceiver", "great how much", "oh, about $1000". Okay
so we'll get one, could come in handy later anyway. So the student who
wanted the next goes and plops down his cash. When do I get the computer
he asks. Maybe by Christmas he's told. Come on guys, enough is enough.
--
Bill Garrett ARPA: garrett@cs.rochester.edu
University of Rochester UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!garrett
Rochester NY 14627 VOX: (716) 275-5605zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (11/01/90)
[followups redirected to comp.sys.next] In article <1990Oct31.192547.23318@cs.rochester.edu> garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett) writes: >- 300 meg hard drive to make the NeXt machine really fun to use. Once >you get the extra hard drive (and pay the extra money, NeXt wants over >$1000 for the bigger harddrive) the only way to get the rest of the system >is through NeXt. Our campus rep suggested you hang on to the smaller drive and hook up an external one in a shoebox, to get two drives. The price for NeXT's drive is a little unreasonable, but you've always got the external SCSI port! >optical disk drives. So you need to be connected somehow to someone who >does or buy one. We wanted to connect the NeXtstation to a network of >sparc-stations in the lab. After all the Next has standard ethernet. >Welllll the NextStation has standard thin-wire ethernet. The suns here >use thick wire ethernet. Quick call to next, what should we do, Next's >answer "Buy a transceiver", "great how much", "oh, about $1000". Okay The rep has his own NeXT, and sez you can come hook your machine up to his and copy the stuff over. $1000 is a rip-off price for a transceiver. You can get them for much less than this. -Dan Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240 Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.
jnmoyne@lbl.gov (Jean-Noel MOYNE) (11/01/90)
Just for the point, the NextStation is easily expandable to color.
(just pay for it). But the 'old' cube will still be B&W for a while. And
the nexstation doesn't come with an optical disk (thank god, you spend
your time waiting because of this optical disk, I mean Next cube is
_extremely_ frustrating to use because of its optical disk). But with a
hard disk, if you want to really use Unix, you'll need 300 Mo.
JNM
--
These are my own ideas (not LBL's)
" Just make it!", BO in 'BO knows Unix'gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (11/01/90)
In article <1990Oct31.192547.23318@cs.rochester.edu> garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett) writes: >Two points which need to be mentioned is the Next's lack of color. >And seeming inability to upgrade to color, NeXt still hasn't said >that an upgrade route would be offered. Another thing that needs to be Well, when I talked to the guy from NeXT, he said that the only way he could think of was to swap motherboards, and get a new monitor. Not cheap! Also, he said that this was NOT something that they would likely do. We'll see what third party does. >wanted the next goes and plops down his cash. When do I get the computer >he asks. Maybe by Christmas he's told. Come on guys, enough is enough. I was told that it would be at least February if I ordered immediately (2 weeks ago). They are severely back ordered. >-- >Bill Garrett ARPA: garrett@cs.rochester.edu >University of Rochester UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!garrett >Rochester NY 14627 VOX: (716) 275-5605 See ya, Ralph Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805
Dorsun.Satoglu@f910.n153.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Dorsun Satoglu) (11/04/90)
AREA:UUCP_AMIGA
Amiga users always talk about amigas vs ibm, atari, or macs, but how about the NeXT? How does the Amiga stand up against the NeXT? My guess is that the NeXT should be better since its higher in the 'computer evolutionary scale', but maybe
not... Give me some info please...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFIT Amiga Users BBS/UFGateway |Dorsun Satoglu - via FidoNet node 1:110/300
1:110/300 Dayton, Ohio |UUCP: afitamy!153!910!Dorsun.Satoglu
(513)-252-7681 |ARPA: Dorsun.Satoglu@f910.n153.z1.FIDONET.ORG
----------------------------------------------------------------------------seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (11/05/90)
In-Reply-To: message from vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM One thing you could tell him is that that's the price for the B/W NextStation. This one CAN NOT be upgraded to the color NeXTStation, so you're locked into it's 4-grey (but sharp) display. He could always add their i860 graphics card, but that'll run him another $15K... While OS support is still a big issue on the Amiga, several display upgrades are appearing, and more are likely to come. Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | Dual A3000 based, custom Help keep the | computer graphics, RealWorld: Sean Cunningham competition // | animation, presentation, Voice: (512) 992-2810 under \X/ | simulation, accident- | scene re-creation, and "Does anyone remember laughter?" Robert Plant| recreation...(whew!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (11/07/90)
In article <1990Oct31.160214.2131@engin.umich.edu>, gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: > In article <405@shrike.AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM> vervalin@AUSTIN.LOCKHEED.COM (Paul Vervalin) writes: >> A3000 NeXTStation >>--------------------------------------------- >> 25 MHz 68030 ? MHz 68040 > > The NeXTStation's clock is 25 MHz. You might be interested to know that > the 040 is not up to production quantities. It will be a long time before > he will be able to get a machine even if he orders now. I called NeXT > and was told that I would have to wait until at least Februrary (or later) > before they could process all of their backorders and get around to me (if > I were to order that is). When the 040 is up to production quantities, you > will be able to take an 040 coprocessor board and stick it in your 3000 > to really boost performance (the 040 is about 10 times as fast as an 882 in > floating point, and several times faster in regular instructions) But how much will a 68040 coprocessor board cost for Amiga? On NeXT it is standard equipment... > >> 100 Mb Harddrive 105 Mb Harddrive >> 880K Floppy 2.88K Floppy (I think) >> 5 Mb RAM 8 Mb RAM >> MultiTasking ? > > Absolutely. The NeXT does multitask. It is UNIX after all. > >> ? Ethernet Built in > > There are several makes of ethernet boards for the Amiga. ..Which are not free, I assume. > >> Workbench and Misc S/W Lots!! of Software (50-60 Mb) > > Well, the software you get for the NeXT is generally PD. There is a LOT > of PD software for the Amiga as well. I think this was about BUNDLED system software. No third party PD. (There is third party PD for NeXT, too.) When you buy a NeXT, you get a dictionary, objective C, mathematica (if educational), a super editor, mail facilities, thesaurus, complete works of shakespeare (-: , and lots of other stuff (the bundled software takes about 200MBs, to my knowledge). And all this if you only buy the computer. > >> Large S/W base Small S/W base >> Cost: $3899 (edu. dis.) Cost: $3340 (edu. dis.) What kind of monitor is included in that Amiga packgage? You get a 1120x832 pixel 4-shade monitor as standard with the NeXT. (And these kind of monitors aren't cheap, if you try to buy them for other computers.) Oh, and because NeXT has Unix as standard, you don't have to spend several hundred (thousand?) bucks to get Unix. > >>This is all I know which IMHO makes them look pretty competitive. Is there >>anything I can tell him to help him decide this "tie-breaker"? I just ordered >>an A3000 which I'm certain was the right decision for me but, I need help >>convincing him. Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated. >>Thanks! >> vervalin@austin.lockheed.com > > See ya, Ralph > > Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu > 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu > Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805 BTW, you didn't even talk about the DSP processor, which is a very strong point for NeXT if you intend to do music or electronic analysis. I think that A3000's, Atari TT and Mac IIsi are about the same price/performance ratio, but NeXTstation is FAR better. Reclaimer: I have now an Atari MEGA4. But I will soon have a NeXTstation, there is no serious competitor for it. (Only weak point is limited availability of commercial software, but the software base grows surprisingly fast.) Jouni
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (11/07/90)
In article <11287@hubcap.clemson.edu>, ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) writes: > One thing you might consider is that the A3000 has many chips > to aid the CPU's task, so a CPU measurement might not be that accurate. > The NeXT has things like that too, doesn't it? > Yup. Like Motorola DSP56001 digital signal processor (25Mhz, 10MIPS, 24-bit, two internal 56-bit accumulators) with which you can output 16-bit 44.1 kHz STEREO sound without slowing the machine down noticeably. You can also use that chip for many other purposes, like computation. NeXT also has a 12-channel custom VLSI I/O processor. > -- > ---------------------------------//------------------------------------- > Doug Dyer Clemson University // "Splunge!" - MP > ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu \\ // > -----------------------------\X/---------------------------------------- Jouni
gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (11/07/90)
In article <3949.273715c2@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >But how much will a 68040 coprocessor board cost for Amiga? On NeXT it >is standard equipment... First things first. You kinda quoted my message in a deceptive way making some other person's message seem like mine. Anyways, there will be 040 Amigas as soon as the 040 ships in production quantities. I figure that the 040 upgrade board will run aroun $1200 to $2000 depending upon manufacturer and features. >I think this was about BUNDLED system software. No third party PD. >(There is third party PD for NeXT, too.) When you buy a NeXT, you get a >dictionary, objective C, mathematica (if educational), a super editor, >mail facilities, thesaurus, complete works of shakespeare (-: , and lots >of other stuff (the bundled software takes about 200MBs, to my >knowledge). And all this if you only buy the computer. Well, this may be a little deceptive. You only get Shakespeare and the other goodies if you get a 300 or 600 meg drive. Objective C and mail are, of course, included (as in ALL other UNIX boxes). I'm saying that most of the "other stuff" is either GNU or PD, or what have you, and is just compiled by NeXT and put on their systems. I don't object to this at all. I was simply trying to point out that there is scads more software available for the Amiga than for NeXTs. >What kind of monitor is included in that Amiga packgage? You get a >1120x832 pixel 4-shade monitor as standard with the NeXT. (And these >kind of monitors aren't cheap, if you try to buy them for other >computers.) The standard Amiga monitors are not megapixel. There is no doubt about this. Megapixel displays color, grey scale or mono are not cheap. >Oh, and because NeXT has Unix as standard, you don't have to spend >several hundred (thousand?) bucks to get Unix. Amiga OS comes with the systems that they sell. It is very UNIX like in many respects, but is much more flexible and has a much slimmer kernel, has better scheduling, etc. Amiga will be releasing their own UNIX boxes soon enough and the price will be included in the price of the systems. The price of UNIX is in the price of the NeXTs. >BTW, you didn't even talk about the DSP processor, which is a very >strong point for NeXT if you intend to do music or electronic analysis. There are DSPs available for the Amiga. >price/performance ratio, but NeXTstation is FAR better. This is simply because it is 040. Please don't comare 040 machines to 030 machines. Everybody knows that the 040 simply kills the 030 in performance. >Reclaimer: I have now an Atari MEGA4. But I will soon have a >NeXTstation, there is no serious competitor for it. (Only weak point is >limited availability of commercial software, but the software base grows >surprisingly fast.) How soon? Remember the 040 is NOT shipping in quantity yet. One thing that I love about the NeXT is the Interface Builder. This is not that big of a concern to me though since Open Look has something similar but in my opinion better. Thanks, Ralph Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) (11/07/90)
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <11287@hubcap.clemson.edu>, ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) writes: >> One thing you might consider is that the A3000 has many chips >> to aid the CPU's task, so a CPU measurement might not be that accurate. >> The NeXT has things like that too, doesn't it? >> >Yup. Like Motorola DSP56001 digital signal processor (25Mhz, 10MIPS, >24-bit, two internal 56-bit accumulators) with which you can output >16-bit 44.1 kHz STEREO sound without slowing the machine down >noticeably. You can also use that chip for many other purposes, like >computation. >NeXT also has a 12-channel custom VLSI I/O processor. Well, thats all? The sound chip in Amiga is not as good, but it is capable of stereo. Other than that there are MANY chips on the motherboard. I was more or less interested in any graphics chips that are standard equipped. I purchased the A3000 over the NeXT for a couple of reasons. First being the low overhead GUI (it provides true multitasking and doesnt demand enormous resources to stay alive). That disk space will be all mine. Applications will be less expensive and IMHO just as good. Your NeXT is good for DTP, but I want DTV and that can demand a lot of resources that the OS would otherwise absorb. Amigavision is infinitly more intriguing to me than LOTUS or WORDPERFECT. As for your future software developers. I am curious, would developers bother to write a wordprocessor, or spreadsheet or math app? Would they mind being stuck with objective-C? The A3000 is well worth the money I paid, and is more suited to my desires than the NeXT. In fact, if there is ANY pc that has no trouble holding its own, strangely its the A3000. The NeXT is a threat to MAC (DTP) and well, IBM doesnt have much to offer at this price. All in all, the A3000 and NeXT I say complement eachother quite well. Both have the best looking OS in the business ( Amiga edges on top :) ) and both present true multitasking even at the hardware level, yet they are aimed at different markets. I would like to see the A3000 given away, but... Anyway, these are just IMHO's. Enjoy your new machine, God I will. Bye guys -- ---------------------------------//------------------------------------- Doug Dyer Clemson University // "Splunge!" - MP ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu \\ // -----------------------------\X/----------------------------------------
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (11/07/90)
In article <1990Nov6.235708.17534@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: >Anyways, there will be 040 Amigas as soon as the 040 ships in production >quantities. I figure that the 040 upgrade board will run aroun $1200 >to $2000 depending upon manufacturer and features. > Progressive Peripherals' 68040DC card for the Amiga 3000 lists in the $1200 range (forget exactly) and includes a fully implemented 68040 with full-bandwidth access to the motherboard RAM and also como includes circuitry for real time peripheral-storage data compression, transparent to the user and without slowdown. Floppies, hard disks, Syquests, optical disks, whatever--all are compressed to store 3 to 10 times their stated capacity. This can of course be turned off (presumably the disks aren't readable by an unenhanced Amiga). Without the data compression the 68040 cards list under $1000. BTW, I like lots of things about NeXTs, but (1) be civilized and (2) quote all the numbers you like, but I've seen NeXTstations run and they seem quite slow. Haven't seen the 68040 in either NeXTstation model. Whatever chip is in the machines, it seems Amiga has less overhead chewing on the processor. Oh, and this part isn't addressed to Ralph, obviously, regardless of what it says up there, for obvious reasons. Enough already. Thom
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (11/07/90)
In article <1990Nov6.235708.17534@engin.umich.edu>, gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: > In article <3949.273715c2@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > >>Oh, and because NeXT has Unix as standard, you don't have to spend >>several hundred (thousand?) bucks to get Unix. > > Amiga OS comes with the systems that they sell. It is very UNIX like > in many respects, but is much more flexible and has a much slimmer kernel, > has better scheduling, etc. > Amiga will be releasing their own UNIX boxes soon enough and the price > will be included in the price of the systems. The price of UNIX > is in the price of the NeXTs. > Hmm. I thought that you could get Unix for A3000 as upgrade. I just thought it could cost a bit. > >>BTW, you didn't even talk about the DSP processor, which is a very >>strong point for NeXT if you intend to do music or electronic analysis. > > There are DSPs available for the Amiga. Yeah, quite a few things are AVAILABLE, but they are not free. They might even be quite expensive. And because NeXT has it as default, many applications can support it. > >>price/performance ratio, but NeXTstation is FAR better. > > This is simply because it is 040. Please don't comare 040 machines to > 030 machines. Everybody knows that the 040 simply kills the 030 in > performance. I was talking about price/performance. If you can get a 68040-box cheaper than a 68030-box (and the 68040-box even had better configuration), the 68040-box certainly is better price/performance. > >>Reclaimer: I have now an Atari MEGA4. But I will soon have a >>NeXTstation, there is no serious competitor for it. (Only weak point is >>limited availability of commercial software, but the software base grows >>surprisingly fast.) > > How soon? Remember the 040 is NOT shipping in quantity yet. One thing > that I love about the NeXT is the Interface Builder. This is not that > big of a concern to me though since Open Look has something similar > but in my opinion better. Well, the software base grows all the time. One reason it grows faster than you'd excpect from a 22000 volume computer is that every machine has complete development enviroment bundled. And another reason is that NeXT is said to have the most sophisticated programming environment around (Word perfect reserved 12 months time for doing the NeXT conversion of WP5.0 but they got it ready in 6 months). > I am not bashing Amigas. I just think that NeXT is an incredible machine for it's price (and even if don't think about the price). I think that this kind of posts are useful at least in one way. In comp.sys.mac.misc some people have said that they have sold their old MAC's and got a NeXTstation for about the same money. And they had read about NeXT in a MAC vs. NeXT thread. > Thanks, Ralph > > > Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu > 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu > Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805 Jouni Alkio, University of Helsinki, Finland.
donb@bushido.uucp (Donald Burnett) (11/07/90)
I mentioned this before however, I will do so again. The A2024 is very close to a MEGAPIXEL display and is about the same price as the 1950 multiscan and is currently available. Why do people forget about these things. Of course if you really want grey scale, just like the NeXT you can get it (talking of the low-end machine). It's an incredible display and on the 2000 the updating screems. 1000x800 with 4 greys is nothing to ignore. -- ************************************************************************ ************** donb@bushido.uucp *********** ************** "My Opinions are my own, no one else's" *********** ************** Organizational Affiliation: *********** ************** CreativEdge Systems *********** ************** An Amiga Business Multimedia Developer *********** ************************************************************************
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (11/08/90)
In article <11416@hubcap.clemson.edu>, ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) writes: > jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > >>In article <11287@hubcap.clemson.edu>, ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) writes: >>> One thing you might consider is that the A3000 has many chips >>> to aid the CPU's task, so a CPU measurement might not be that accurate. >>> The NeXT has things like that too, doesn't it? >>> >>Yup. Like Motorola DSP56001 digital signal processor (25Mhz, 10MIPS, >>24-bit, two internal 56-bit accumulators) with which you can output >>16-bit 44.1 kHz STEREO sound without slowing the machine down >>noticeably. You can also use that chip for many other purposes, like >>computation. > >>NeXT also has a 12-channel custom VLSI I/O processor. > > > Well, thats all? The sound chip in Amiga is not as good, but it is capable > of stereo. Other than that there are MANY chips on the motherboard. I > was more or less interested in any graphics chips that are standard equipped. Hmm. The Amiga soundchip is next to nothing for me, because it can't produce professional quality sound. (I make computer music.) And for me, the NeXT DSP is more valuable than the Amiga's "special" chips together. Sure, the Amiga's blitter is absent from the NeXT, but if I need decent color graphics, I require Iris standard graphics a'la NeXTDimension (but I don't need color graphics, so I will buy a mono NeXTstation). If you want not-so-expensive color graphics, the A3000 could be a good buy. But you only need color graphics for pictures, animation and games. I personally prefer a grey-scale GUI to a color GUI. > > I purchased the A3000 over the NeXT for a couple of reasons. First > being the low overhead GUI (it provides true multitasking and doesnt > demand enormous resources to stay alive). That disk space will be all mine. > Applications will be less expensive and IMHO just as good. > Your NeXT is good for DTP, but I want DTV and that can demand a lot > of resources that the OS would otherwise absorb. Amigavision is infinitly > more intriguing to me than LOTUS or WORDPERFECT. There should (at least very soon) be a program called "Renderman" for NeXTs, which I believe will be VEERY powerful graphic/animation program. > As for your future software developers. I am curious, would developers > bother to write a wordprocessor, or spreadsheet or math app? Would they mind > being stuck with objective-C? What does this mean? The best spreadsheet ever made (Improv) is only available for NeXT. You can get Mathematica bundled. There is WP5.0 for NeXT. Or did you mean that since such good programs are already available, there would be no good reason to write other good software?!? How come should the be stuck with objective-C? There are several different languages for the NeXT. > > The A3000 is well worth the money I paid, and is more suited to my > desires than the NeXT. In fact, if there is ANY pc that has no trouble holding > its own, strangely its the A3000. The NeXT is a threat to MAC (DTP) and > well, IBM doesnt have much to offer at this price. You keep talking about NeXT as a plain DTP machine. (I read it between the lines.) What is the reason for this? > > All in all, the A3000 and NeXT I say complement eachother quite well. > Both have the best looking OS in the business ( Amiga edges on top :) ) and > both present true multitasking even at the hardware level, yet they are aimed > at different markets. IMHO, the only thing that Amiga2000 is better choice than NeXT for is not-so-expensive animation work. (And if you want really good graphics, NeXT is hard to beat.) > > I would like to see the A3000 given away, but... Anyway, these are > just IMHO's. Enjoy your new machine, God I will. > > Bye guys > > -- > ---------------------------------//------------------------------------- > Doug Dyer Clemson University // "Splunge!" - MP > ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu \\ // > -----------------------------\X/---------------------------------------- Yup, I will. Jouni
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) (11/08/90)
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <11416@hubcap.clemson.edu>, ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug) writes: >> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >> >> Well, thats all? The sound chip in Amiga is not as good, but it is capable >> of stereo. Other than that there are MANY chips on the motherboard. I >> was more or less interested in any graphics chips that are standard equipped. >Hmm. The Amiga soundchip is next to nothing for me, because it can't >produce professional quality sound. (I make computer music.) And for me, >the NeXT DSP is more valuable than the Amiga's "special" chips together. >Sure, the Amiga's blitter is absent from the NeXT, but if I need >decent color graphics, I require Iris standard graphics a'la NeXTDimension >(but I don't need color graphics, so I will buy a mono NeXTstation). I DONT produce computer music. the NeXTdimenson is cool. You need the color monitor and a bus, that puts the NeXT out of my range. >If you want not-so-expensive color graphics, the A3000 could be a good >buy. But you only need color graphics for pictures, animation and games. >I personally prefer a grey-scale GUI to a color GUI. a'la video. You want grey-scale, set your color to greys, or use the 1000x800 mono (4-grey?) monitor. The Amiga GUI is almost infinitly configurable. >> Your NeXT is good for DTP, but I want DTV and that can demand a lot >> of resources that the OS would otherwise absorb. Amigavision is infinitly >> more intriguing to me than LOTUS or WORDPERFECT. >There should (at least very soon) be a program called "Renderman" for >NeXTs, which I believe will be VEERY powerful graphic/animation program. Renderman is not unique to NeXT it is a port. It will demand A LOT of resources. >> As for your future software developers. I am curious, would developers >> bother to write a wordprocessor, or spreadsheet or math app? Would they mind >> being stuck with objective-C? >NeXT. Or did you mean that since such good programs are already >available, there would be no good reason to write other good software?!? Exactly. A good bundle causes some interesting problems for developers. That wasn't an attack, just an observation. afterall, the end-user is what counts. I thought that was kinduv funny. >How come should the be stuck with objective-C? There are several >different languages for the NeXT. Good. I was wrong. I thought I read somewhere that to use the IB you needed to use objective-C. >> The A3000 is well worth the money I paid, and is more suited to my >> desires than the NeXT. In fact, if there is ANY pc that has no trouble holding >> its own, strangely its the A3000. The NeXT is a threat to MAC (DTP) and >> well, IBM doesnt have much to offer at this price. >You keep talking about NeXT as a plain DTP machine. (I read it between >the lines.) What is the reason for this? To raise the NeXT to video ala color and their RISC chip video board is very expensive. As the affordable NeXTs have good DTP capability (Mono, postscript, a good laser printer) that would be it's stong point to me. The IB is the neatest thing, though. Ofcourse, with the hires mono monitor and Amiga software improving by leaps and bounds... >IMHO, the only thing that Amiga2000 is better choice than NeXT for is >not-so-expensive animation work. (And if you want really good graphics, >NeXT is hard to beat.) The NeXT ain't that hard to beat- I don't care for your features. I need NTSC output, blitter, color, speed, memory & diskspace (low-overhead os) multitasking, video & animation software, entertainment software alright? If you want to talk about the NeXT, do it in the NeXT camp. I don't mind being corrected - that is important, but your computer is a far cry from God. I even got email from NeXTers over and over advertising their own machine a while back. The NeXT needs no advertising here -- you have to do a lot of computer searching to come up with the Amiga as visibility goes. I am NOT going to buy a NeXT. You did, great. I am not an amiga expert. I searched for a computer to suit my needs\budget and bought an A3000. I like the NeXTs, but I liked the A3000 even more. Many people do. Please respond e-mail, I don't have time to sort through all these threads and this one is kinduv boring (no offense, but I'd read the NeXT group if I was interested). So long, -- ---------------------------------//------------------------------------- Doug Dyer Clemson University // "Splunge!" - MP ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu \\ // -----------------------------\X/----------------------------------------
amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) (11/08/90)
Contrary to popular misconseptions the 68040 is NOT out yet! If you tell me your NeXT has an 040, at least wait till it's out! Also Display PostScript will slow the system down to the speed of an 030. Amiga@walt.utexas.edu .....Paul...... I like boats, they're healthier than valium. Cost more tho.
mp@ccvr1.ncsu.edu (Manoj Kumar Patel) (11/08/90)
In article <3965.273871dd@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > >Hmm. The Amiga soundchip is next to nothing for me, because it can't >produce professional quality sound. (I make computer music.) And for me, >the NeXT DSP is more valuable than the Amiga's "special" chips together. >Sure, the Amiga's blitter is absent from the NeXT, but if I need >decent color graphics, I require Iris standard graphics a'la NeXTDimension >(but I don't need color graphics, so I will buy a mono NeXTstation). > >If you want not-so-expensive color graphics, the A3000 could be a good >buy. But you only need color graphics for pictures, animation and games. yep - I agree, color graphics is useless for real work. Of course, so is sound - totally useless (except for demoes and games of course). In fact - why doesn't someone make a monochrome high horsepower machine with no sound, graphics or expansion slots. That should cut down the cost and still let me get real work done. Wait - I see an intel 486 box, available NOW - yeah - great!! just what I need!! Seriously though - I am glad that you found a machine that suits your needs, but don't imply that graphics are only for games - I suspect that (currently) there are far more business and scientific applications that use graphics than ones that use music. Not all of these require Iris quality stuff (so no point in spending the extra to get it). Of course, I wouldn't mind a hi-res 24 bit board on the market, but I suspect that I would not be able to afford one anyway. >not-so-expensive animation work. (And if you want really good graphics, >NeXT is hard to beat.) > An Iris would beat a NeXT any day. Yes it costs more than a slab, but a useful color capable slab costs way more than an Amy. I am not trying to knock the NeXT machines - they are nice machines. However, they are too expensive for me (I don't mean just the CPU, I mean the package - extra drive, color, any "toys" I may need - such as a scanner etc.). Enjoy whatever machine you have, Manoj Patel
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (11/09/90)
In article <7840@dog.ee.lbl.gov> jnmoyne@lbl.gov (Jean-Noel MOYNE) writes: > Just for the point, the NextStation is easily expandable to color. >(just pay for it). According to both the NeXT press releases and the BYTE article, Nextstations are not expandable. There are no slots. If you buy a monochrome system, you keep a monochrome system, unless they eventually introduce a tradein program to move you to the color system. >But the 'old' cube will still be B&W for a while. The "cube" configuration systems can be upgraded, once this fancy NextDimension board is released. Around $4000 for a display board, but it sounds like a cool one. > JNM -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Standing on the shoulders of giants leaves me cold -REM
al158305@mtecv2.mty.itesm.mx (Gustavo Cordova Avila) (11/10/90)
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >Hmm. The Amiga soundchip is next to nothing for me, because it can't >produce professional quality sound. (I make computer music.) And for me, >the NeXT DSP is more valuable than the Amiga's "special" chips together. >Sure, the Amiga's blitter is absent from the NeXT, but if I need >decent color graphics, I require Iris standard graphics a'la NeXTDimension >(but I don't need color graphics, so I will buy a mono NeXTstation). Well, then if you don't need such a machine, then obviously you also don't need to be talking about them, right? Why not better talk in a newsgroup dedicated to NeXT instead of flaming around "just because"? >There should (at least very soon) be a program called "Renderman" for >NeXTs, which I believe will be VEERY powerful graphic/animation program. Well, that's good news. Not that it surprises us, we've had rendering software since the beginning (anybody remember the original Sculpt-3D?) >You keep talking about NeXT as a plain DTP machine. (I read it between >the lines.) What is the reason for this? Here in campus we have some NeXT's, and, in using them I've had that impression, like it's only a bigger mac, and sometimes slower like when it's moving windows and mouse. i really get desperate when I move a mouse and the machine takes a second or three to *start* to take notice about it. etc etc. It's display postscript is nice, specially to do previews, but I prefer a *real* fast gui, like amiga's, even the macs are quicker at that. >IMHO, the only thing that Amiga2000 is better choice than NeXT for is >not-so-expensive animation work. (And if you want really good graphics, >NeXT is hard to beat.) Well, precisely, that was the philosophy behind the original creators of the amiga, to build a fast, capable and low-cost graphics machine, and they really succeeded at that. It's a diffrent market niche than the NeXT if you're talking about the A2000, but in my opinion, the A3000 is for people who want a *fast* machine but saw the light before plunging into NeXTdom. Well, that's MHO, I still prefer the amiga over anything I've seen yet, and maybe with some expansion, a 68020/030, math chip and some 8 megs autoconfig/8 megs 32-bit RAM, ECS, I'll have a machine better than anything in campus (unless it's the rs/6000). Enough rambling, gotta go have dinner... cu@the.mouse Ranger Elf -- ************************** Gustavo Cordova Avila *************************** * al158305@mtecv2.mty.itesm.mx | Majoring in Electronics Systems Eng. * * pl158305@tecmtyvm.mty.itesm.mx | in Monterrey Tech, Mexico. * ****************************************************************************
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (11/17/90)
Dorsun.Satoglu@f910.n153.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Dorsun Satoglu) writes: > How does the Amiga stand up to the NeXT What's that old saying about bad things coming in threes? This message makes two people trying to start trouble on Amiga vs. NeXT, I guess we can expect someone else in a week or so to start it up again after this one dies down. I am redirecting followups to alt.religion.computer Hey does anyone know how the Amiga stands up next to a Cray? :-) Or how about my TI-60 calculator? -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash