bk@tadtec.uucp (Brian Kelly) (11/30/90)
I'm joining this thread quite late, however I have a few points to make:
#PONTIFICATE_MODE_ON
Firstly, some of the postings in this thread have been obnoxious. I'm not
going to name names, coz if you don't know yourself, then pointing it out
isn't going to help. Please get your act together and stop this "my computer's
better than yours" and "you shouldn't be playing games on that" sort of remark.
The Amiga is a wonderful machine in *all* it's guises and IMHO there are
far better things about this machine and it's community to talk about than
wasting valuable bandwidth on that sort of noise.
#PONTIFICATE_MODE_OFF
A bit closer to the subject, there really is only one reason that a game won't
run on a all machines and that is copy protection. There is very legal way of
chucking the operating system and running the show yourself. I don't agree
that *all* games should multitask, or should be installable on a hard disk.
There are certain games that lend to this, Battlechess and Tetris come to mind,
but some games just won't co-exist with the OS and still have their features
intact. Here I'll cite Treasure Trap as an example (coz I wrote it, plug plug
;-)).
This game, before copy protection, would run on any Amiga I could find,
This included 4Mb 68020 A2000's, it even used give smart remarks if it found
any strange combinations. As soon as the copy protection, which I didn't write,
was installed, it would only run on machines with vanilla 68000's in them.
The reason why copy protection is such a big thing on this side of the Atlantic
is because as soon as a game is released, it appears almost immediately on
pirated disks. Of course just about no copy protection scheme is going to
stop these people, but ya gotta try something. We even had a game appear on a
pirate disk *before* we had sent the final master to the publishers, that is a
pre-release version had been spirited away from them and appeared as a cracked
game on one of these compilation disks.
As for co-existing with the OS. The beginning of the game (for the benefit of
everyone but the five people who bought it *sigh*) has a paddle steamer scroll
on to the screen and a little diver jump off it. This is a 50/60Hz scroll with
rippling/fading out reflections. The copperlist for this is quite large, and
needs constant tending to. I honestly cannot see any way of making that sort
of thing work with exec still running. Apart from the space problem on
a 512k machine, trying to get a copperlist that uses the wait instruction in
anything apart from explicit mode, to work with MrgCop() (sp?) is pretty
tedious. I have to admit I didn't try too hard but it seemed like a lotta work
that I could avoid by running the show.
Apart from that I would definitely have run out of space on a 512k machhine
without taking over.
People with expanded systems should bear this in mind, most games are written
so they *must* run on the 512K machines, software houses just cannot afford
to make special versions of these sort of games for a huge minority of
machines.
Let me clarify this by saying I *do* agree it should run on your machines,
and please get off your high horse about going to vanilla 68000 mode, but
don't flame it about not multitasking, after all a reboot is only
two minutes away and if you can't afford that then you probably can't afford
the time to play the game in the first place.
Unfortunately software protection is here to stay (in Europe anyway) until the
cracking scene realises they are strangling the life out of small software
houses that produce most of the innovative games we see today and causing
the large ones to go for the License/Hype approach :-(.
To summarise:
1) All games shouldn't have to multitask.
2) All games should run on all platforms.
3) Good (??) copy protection will invariably screw up no 2.
I shall now don my asbestos underwear and wait with extinguisher in hand :-)
Brian Kelly mwm@raven.relay.pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) (12/01/90)
In article <BK.90Nov29222757@tadtec.uucp> bk@tadtec.uucp (Brian Kelly) writes:
[Description of graphics display deleted.]
needs constant tending to. I honestly cannot see any way of making that sort
of thing work with exec still running. Apart from the space problem on
a 512k machine, trying to get a copperlist that uses the wait instruction in
anything apart from explicit mode, to work with MrgCop() (sp?) is pretty
tedious. I have to admit I didn't try too hard but it seemed like a lotta
work that I could avoid by running the show.
Yup, you didn't try very hard. Remember, the AmigaOS is designed so
you _can_ pretty much take over the machine, and give it back in a
friendly fashion. Doing so should survive OS upgrades.
That leaves the space problem. That's actually easy - you blow off the
grahics demo unless 1) there's space to run it, or 2) your
distribution disk was the boot disk. The only people who won't get the
fancy graphics demo are the ones who install the program in a
multitasking environment, but only have 512K. Do make sure to explain
this in the manual to cut down on calls complaining about it being
broken after the install, though.
<mike
--michael@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (michael gersten) (12/01/90)
bk@tadtec.uucp (Brian Kelly) writes: >I'm joining this thread quite late, however I have a few points to make: >This game, before copy protection, would run on any Amiga I could find, >This included 4Mb 68020 A2000's, it even used give smart remarks if it found >any strange combinations. As soon as the copy protection, which I didn't write, >was installed, it would only run on machines with vanilla 68000's in them. First, let me congratulate you for the game. Now let me flame you for the distribution company you chose. You *DO* have a choice of who distributes your game; insist on one that will do it right. >The reason why copy protection is such a big thing on this side of the Atlantic >is because as soon as a game is released, it appears almost immediately on >pirated disks. Of course just about no copy protection scheme is going to >stop these people, but ya gotta try something. We even had a game appear on a >pirate disk *before* we had sent the final master to the publishers, that is a >pre-release version had been spirited away from them and appeared as a cracked >game on one of these compilation disks. Ok, I have just a few questions: 1. Who did you give copies of that version to, 2. How well do you know those people? >rippling/fading out reflections. The copperlist for this is quite large, and >needs constant tending to. I honestly cannot see any way of making that sort >of thing work with exec still running. Apart from the space problem on Now for my nitpicking. EXEC knows NOTHING about the copperlist. It doesn't care. Don't bother it. INTUITION (and graphics.library) is what knows about the copper list. That is what needs to be taken care of. I don't care what you do with the screen while you are running. Just as long as I can get to another screen when I pause your game. *** AND NEVER *** shall a game destroy my dnet'd remote connections nor my serial connections (which only depend on exec, not intuaition) just because it wants a fancy **INTRODUCTION SCREEN*** (Not even the game, can you say pathetic excuse for a takeover). <SIGH>. I used to think that it would be better if publishers would indicate the author of the games on the packages. But if they did, I'd never buy you programs. Michael
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/04/90)
bk@tadtec.uucp (Brian Kelly) writes: >I'm joining this thread quite late, however I have a few points to make: >A bit closer to the subject, there really is only one reason that a game won't >run on a all machines and that is copy protection. No, that should be "BAD copy protection". There is NO reason that ANY game shouldn't work on all machines, even if it's a take-over-the-machine-only-boot- from-this-disk-no-hard-drive-reboot-won't-work monster. Your example proves my thesis. Crummy copy protection == crummy game. Regardless of the game's other merits. >Of course just about no copy protection scheme is going to stop [pirates] That's why I don't believe in copy protection, but that's a different topic. >As for co-existing with the OS. The beginning of the game (for the benefit of >everyone but the five people who bought it *sigh*) has a paddle steamer scroll >on to the screen and a little diver jump off it. This is a 50/60Hz scroll with >rippling/fading out reflections. The copperlist for this is quite large, and >needs constant tending to. I honestly cannot see any way of making that sort >of thing work with exec still running. You didn't try hard enough, seems to me. My options would have been to try it within the context of exec (what does exec care about your copperlist?), installing myself in front of the exec interrupt handlers, if timing was really tight, and blowing the fancy demo if it didn't work. People generally don't like demos after the first time, anyhow. In NO event should it be necessary to totally and permanently disable multitasking. Please note that nobody is saying you can't take over - just that you shouldn't trash anything else if you do, and you should return the machine to the previous (multitasking) state when you're done, or if the player chooses to pause. >Apart from that I would definitely have run out of space on a 512k machhine >without taking over. Then you definitely either (A) didn't try hard enough, (B) don't optimize effectively enough, (C) didn't design correctly, or (D) didn't realize that people will accept a 1M game (look at SimCity, which nobody can claim didn't sell well), and go with that. If you're really serious about running in a 512K machine, then you should design with that in mind, and skip the memory-intensive stuff if you need to. Or, at least, clean it up. You can't get my sympathy with a claim that you "needed" all of the 512K, when the system takes comparatively little of that, and there are so many ways to get around the problem. >To summarise: > 1) All games shouldn't have to multitask. Right, but they do have to be polite about it. > 2) All games should run on all platforms. Right. > 3) Good (??) copy protection will invariably screw up no 2. Totally, absolutely, wrong. And you forgot #4: 4) Taking over the machine and requiring a reboot is o.k. WRONG! -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (12/05/90)
bk@tadtec.uucp (Brian Kelly) writes: >The reason why copy protection is such a big thing on this side of the Atlantic >is because as soon as a game is released, it appears almost immediately on >pirated disks. Of course just about no copy protection scheme is going to >stop these people, but ya gotta try something. This is an attitude that game publishers have that I don't understand. If they know that their copy protection screws up the game so that it won't work with all hardware platforms anymore, and they KNOW that it isn't even going to slow down the pirates (Matter of fact the harder the protection the more the pirates try to break it.), then WHY BOTHER? Why do you 'gotta try something' when you know that 'something' does nothing to stop the pirates, but *does* harm your legitimate customers? 1> You cut down your potential user base because the copy protection makes it so that the game only runs on a generic 68000 based machine only. 2> You make it hard for legitimate owners to backup their software for safe keeping 3> You make it hard or impossible to install the game on a hard drive. On the other hand, once the pirate gets your copy protected software he will remove the protection and then all the pirates get all the advantages that legitimate owners do not: 1> They can now run it on any platform. 2> They can backup the software (to all their friends) 3> They can probably now install it on a hard drive. So by copy protecting software you are actually sending out the message that it's better to get a pirated version of the software than to go and buy the commercial version. IMHO you are actually SUPPORTING pirating with this attitude. With or without copy protection, games will be pirated. So why not give your real customers a break and not use copy protection? It may earn you some more loyalty from us end users and get you more legitimate customers. -- John Sparks |D.I.S.K. Public Access Unix System| Multi-User Games, Email sparks@corpane.UUCP |PH: (502) 968-DISK 24Hrs/2400BPS | Usenet, Chatting, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|7 line Multi-User system. | Downloads & more. A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of----Ogden Nash
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) (12/05/90)
I agree totally with John Sparks on the fact that Copy Protection does promote piracy. It sometimes can cause alignment problems with your drive. I can see where some games have no need to be hard drive installed, but it is a great advantage! I am all for password protection and code wheel types: most games of this type run! (wow how startling!!) and they are more HD installable. And the fact is that people can copy most protections with hardware copies (IE image copiers) just as easy as they can copy password protections. "BROKEN" copies don't even have to come into the picture with the current reproduction tools. Come on, it is ridiculous to spoil a good program with copy protection that harms the drive in any way or will not boot! Byron
jafo@miranda.UUCP (Sean Reifschneider) (12/09/90)
>In article <4647@disk.UUCP> specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: >I agree totally with John Sparks on the fact that Copy Protection does promote >piracy. It sometimes can cause alignment problems with your drive. I can see >where some games have no need to be hard drive installed, but it is a great >advantage! > >I am all for password protection and code wheel types: most games of this type >run! (wow how startling!!) and they are more HD installable. And the fact is >that people can copy most protections with hardware copies (IE image copiers) >just as easy as they can copy password protections. "BROKEN" copies don't even >have to come into the picture with the current reproduction tools. > >Come on, it is ridiculous to spoil a good program with copy protection that >harms the drive in any way or will not boot! I fully agree. I paid $50 for Falcon about a year ago. I can't get it to boot correctly anymore. I've decided not to buy any more Spectrum Holobyte games in the future. It's too bad because I'd like to try out Vette, also. I'm planing on calling them and seeing what they offer to remedy this situation. I hacked my copy of F-18 Interceptor to work on my hard disc, and love it! I just got a copy of Test Drive, and find the copy protection to be acceptable. I have it installed on my hard drive. If you try to run the program without the origional disc in the drive, it crashes. If you run it with the origional disc in the drive, it access the disc for a few seconds, then you can play from hard/ram disc. Works great! Sean -- From the desk of Sean Reifschneider. Isn't Amiga UUCP great? Thanks Matt. uunet.uu.net!ccncsu.colostate.edu!ncuug!miranda!seanr
caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) (12/11/90)
In article <jafo.3932@miranda.UUCP> jafo@miranda.UUCP (Sean Reifschneider) writes: >I just got a copy of Test Drive, and find the copy protection to be acceptable. >I have it installed on my hard drive. If you try to run the program without >the origional disc in the drive, it crashes. If you run it with the origional ^^^^^^^ >disc in the drive, it access the disc for a few seconds, then you can play >from hard/ram disc. Works great! This is acceptable? I'd hardly call a copy protection that deliberately crashes your machine when it fails acceptable. SimCity used to do this before they went to the look-it-up-in-the-manual type of protection and I hated it. There is no excuse for crashing the user's machine on purpose. The software ought to (optionally) print a blurb and then simply exit, or do what some of the games do and run with a limited subset of all features (such as Red Storm Rising letting you play a training mission). -=> CAW /////////////////////////////////////|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Christopher A. Wichura |Real programmers don't play tennis, or caw@miroc.chi.il.us (my amiga) |any other sport that requires you to u12401@uicvm.uic.edu (school account)|change clothes. Mountain climbing is |OK, and real programmers wear their Please! Do not send mail to my school|climbing boots to work in case a account unless mail to miroc bounces.|mountain should suddenly spring up in I often do not check uicvm.uic.edu |the middle of the machine room. for periods in excess of a week. | --Unix Fortune \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|//////////////////////////////////////
jafo@miranda.UUCP (Sean Reifschneider) (12/12/90)
>In article <caw.3789@miroc.Chi.IL.US> caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) writes: >In article <jafo.3932@miranda.UUCP> jafo@miranda.UUCP (Sean Reifschneider) writes: >>I just got a copy of Test Drive, and find the copy protection to be acceptable. >>I have it installed on my hard drive. If you try to run the program without >>the origional disc in the drive, it crashes. If you run it with the origional > ^^^^^^^ >>disc in the drive, it access the disc for a few seconds, then you can play >>from hard/ram disc. Works great! > >This is acceptable? I'd hardly call a copy protection that deliberately >crashes your machine when it fails acceptable. SimCity used to do this >before they went to the look-it-up-in-the-manual type of protection and I >hated it. There is no excuse for crashing the user's machine on purpose. >The software ought to (optionally) print a blurb and then simply exit, or >do what some of the games do and run with a limited subset of all features >(such as Red Storm Rising letting you play a training mission). I think it's acceptable. Since the program forces you to reboot to exit it anyway. My machine reboots anyway. Protection like FA/18 is good (look up wheel). The way it's protected now is great (no protection at all). Test drive is accpetable (because I can still install it on my hard drive). Falcon and Populous are unacceptable (can't install them on my hard drive, and Falcon is now unusable. Those are my criteria. I do like games with no protection that will exit and you are back to where you were before you loaded the game. There are very few games that do that, though. Sean -- From the desk of Sean Reifschneider. Isn't Amiga UUCP great? Thanks Matt. uunet.uu.net!ccncsu.colostate.edu!ncuug!miranda!jafo