fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (11/24/90)
Unfortunately, FLIGHT SIM II for the Amiga is marketed and developed exclusively by SubLogic. I called them about a year ago and asked if they had any plans to port 3.0 (that long ago!) to the Amiga. They said that they had no such plans...when FS II came out for the Amiga in '87, it was state-of- the-art. Now, it's getting pretty long in the tooth... --Rick Wrigley fhwri@conncoll.bitnet
jcs@crash.cts.com (John Schultz) (11/25/90)
In <37096@nigel.ee.udel.edu> fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes: >Unfortunately, FLIGHT SIM II for the Amiga is marketed and developed >exclusively by SubLogic. I called them about a year ago and asked if they had >any plans to port 3.0 (that long ago!) to the Amiga. They said that they had >no such plans...when FS II came out for the Amiga in '87, it was state-of- >the-art. Now, it's getting pretty long in the tooth... A colleague of mine had the opportunity to do the UFO port to the Amiga. It seems subLOGIC subCONTRACTED the project to a company which was going to be subCONTRACTED to an Amiga programmer. They sent him a preview package with the finished PC version and some Amiga flight sim code. He took a look at the code for both the PC version and the Amiga version. He stated that the code for the PC was fairly documented and looked ok, while the Amiga code appeared to be a very sloppy port, with little or no comments and terrible coding style (not maintainable or useable for anything). He checked out the running PC version and after seeing the game (simulator), decided that he didn't want to port a UFO simulator where the goal was to suck energy out of buildings for power, plus the fact that he was going to have to rewrite the thing from scratch (they also wanted the project done in a month). He declined, and they gave the project to someone else. To date, I have not seen UFO on the shelves, or heard of anyone who has seen it on the market. If subLOGIC feels it is worthwhile to port FS 4.0 to the Amiga, they should produce a pseudocode version that is system and language independent for developers to port. Then all they'd need are programmers that knew the machine to be ported to, not cryptologists... A while back, I compared a few flight simulators to see if any are actually modelling flight realistically (no special case hacks). The test I used was a power on stall. First I tried Jet. After the stall warning came on, the nose just dropped and stopped as if though it had hit an invisible force field when the plane was level. Further, the rate of rotation was fixed: an obvious hack (and a poor one at that). Next, I tried the newly released F-19 Stealth Fighter. The thing's stall warning was highly inaccurate- when banked to past (about) 60 degrees, the *very* annoying stall warning comes on. This is at full throttle, full speed, level flight. Apparently the designers are not aware of lift produced by the fuselage and vertical surfaces when the plane is knife edge. Further, with full throttle and max speed, the plane is almost ballistic (doesn't need lift to counter gravity; thrust alone can do the job). Finally, stall can occur at any attitude and any speed (any time the angle of attack of the main lifting surface exceeds the critical angle and the lift drops rapidly as the smooth airflow breaks up into turbulent drag with little perpendicular lift force). Anyway, F-19's stall is only slightly better than Jet's: F-19 doesn't hit an invible force field when it becomes level, it hits the invisible force field at nadir (straight down). It still has a constant rotation rate. I don't (now) have F-18 Interceptor of Falcon to test. But, I can say that of all the Amiga flight simulators, Interceptor has by far the most realistic flight and sound model. I have heard that Falcon is fairly accurate too, but from the one time I used it, it was completely wrong (When the plane was rolled to knife edge, the stick controls were relative to the world frame of reference (not the jet's). This may have been because the "easiest" mode was in use, and may be different when used in the more advanced modes. I have no idea how A-10 Tank Killer, F-29 Retaliator, Fighter Bomber, F-16 Combat Pilot, or Blue Angels deal with realistic flight and motion. Finally, I tried Flight Sim 4.0 on a colleagues PC. He stalled the Cessna, and it stalled correctly. The whole plane fell downward (no rotation), and as the force of drag increased, the moment arm of the tail surfaces rotated the *tail* upward about the center of mass (cockpit), hence a correctly implemented torque about the center mass. FS 4.0 (PC) passed the stall test, both power on and off. It also does adverse yaw, ground effects, slips, skids, random wind/clouds, and other traffic. Most important to some users is the accurate instrumentation (ie. you really can learn from them). You can fly from point A to point B using just instruments, and some users get a real kick out of that. Porting FS 4.0 to the Amiga would be a major undertaking (probably all in 80x86 assembly), and subLOGIC (or Microsoft) probably do not feel that their effort is worthwhile in terms of time and money. If enough users wrote letters, that may make a difference. Or if some really talented Amiga programmers convinced subLOGIC that they could do it profitably, that may also do it. John PS: Falcon 3.0 for the PC is supposed to use the 80287 and have a realistic flight model, as well as ground terrain.
jerry@truevision.com (Jerry Thompson) (12/04/90)
In article <5854@crash.cts.com> jcs@crash.cts.com (John Schultz) writes: > If subLOGIC feels it is worthwhile to port FS 4.0 to the Amiga, they >should produce a pseudocode version that is system and language independent >for developers to port. Then all they'd need are programmers that knew >the machine to be ported to, not cryptologists... ... > Porting FS 4.0 to the Amiga would be a major undertaking (probably all >in 80x86 assembly), and subLOGIC (or Microsoft) probably do not feel that >their effort is worthwhile in terms of time and money. If enough users >wrote letters, that may make a difference. Or if some really talented Amiga >programmers convinced subLOGIC that they could do it profitably, that may >also do it. > Years and years ago I saw Bruce Artwick speak to the Apple Users Group in Champaign. He showed subLOGIC's proprietary cross developement system. At the time, they WERE writing pseudo-assembler-code versions which could be compiled for either PC or Apple II (no such thing as a Mac or Amiga then.) I also worked with someone from subLOGIC who said a helicopter(?) simulation had been written by a group of programmers in association with subLOGIC and released under a different company name. I don't think subLOGIC was too impressed with the Amiga. Well, this was back in 1987, and I couldn't remember all the details if you put a gun to my head. Any takers? (To provide any more details, NOT to put a gun to my head!) I once sat next to Bruce in a Wendy's. I proceeded to describe to my lunch companion the virtues of the Amiga and it's graphics, and to bitch about how some ports, like Flight Simulator, didn't take advantage of the machine. He seemed to be listening. Flight Simulator is by far the most realistic, but I personally prefer the flight programs designed more for entertainment. I know students at the U of I who could probably do a good port, but I don't think subLOGIC would want to rely on students for development and maintenance of software. -- Jerry Thompson | // checks ___________ | "I'm into S&M, "What I want to know is, have | \\ // and | | | | Sarcasm and you ever seen Claude Rains?" | \X/ balances /_\ | /_\ | Mass Sarcasm."
honp9@jetson.uh.edu (Jason L. Tibbitts III) (12/06/90)
In article <560@epicb.com>, jerry@truevision.com (Jerry Thompson) writes: > Years and years ago I saw Bruce Artwick speak to the Apple Users Group in > Champaign. He showed subLOGIC's proprietary cross developement system. At > the time, they WERE writing pseudo-assembler-code versions which could be > compiled for either PC or Apple II (no such thing as a Mac or Amiga then.) > I also worked with someone from subLOGIC who said a helicopter(?) simulation > had been written by a group of programmers in association with subLOGIC and > released under a different company name. I don't think subLOGIC was too > impressed with the Amiga. Well, this was back in 1987, and I couldn't remember > all the details if you put a gun to my head. Any takers? (To provide any more > details, NOT to put a gun to my head!) Anyone remember Radar Raiders? That neat jet simulator program by subLOCIC that only ran under v27 AmigaDOS (or was it 1.0)? It had a rather acceptable frame rate for the time, and was quite nice to fly. Unfortunately, the advence demo copy I have is nowhere near finished, and as far as I know all development stopped dead soon after. Too bad, too, as the software market back then needed all the help it could get. This was all back in late 1985, or maybe earlier. Those were the days. It seems, though, that there was someone at subLOGIC who was impressed with the Amiga early on. > Jerry Thompson | // checks ___________ | "I'm into S&M, -- \/ Jason L. Tibbitts III // | THEnet: {George|Jane|Elroy|Judy}::HONP9 /\/"Blob Shop Programmers: // | SesquiNet, Telnet, etc: HONP9@JETSON.uh.edu \/ Because We're Bored!" \X/ | CREN (BitNet): HONP9@UHVAX1 "Ewige /\ . DISCLAIMER ." Whose opinions did you think there were?" ; Blumenkraft"
m0154@tnc.UUCP (GUY GARNETT) (12/14/90)
I have heard this rumor in the Bad Old Days of the Amiga, and have the program which it refers to (Radar Raiders) on disk here. In the beginning of the Amiga, subLOGIC was indeed very interested, and was working on a killer new combat flight simulator for it. The program was along the lines of Jet, but was to feature some really neat innovations. Unfortunately the Amiga OS was not at all stable prior to release 1.1; during the development of the program several new versions of the OS and programming guidelines came out, and each time, something in the program broke. This was getting very expensive, and eventually the project was scrapped. The last program fragment was distributed as Radar Raiders; you can fly the jet around a test landscape, with sounds. When AmigaDOS settled down and became something a programmer could trust (v1.2), they ported the current version of Flight Simulator. Unfortunately, F/A 18 Interceptor and some other good combat flight simulators were not far behind the actual release of subLOGIC flight simulator. As I understand it, subLOGIC was burned, and the whole thing soured the company on any more amiga projects (after having lost money on the thing not once, but twice, you'd be reluctant to start a third go-round, too). --Wildstar