ifarqhar@sunc.mqcc.mq.oz.au (Ian Farquhar) (12/18/90)
I have been monitoring this discussion with great interest, and I have a few comments to make from the point of view of someone who has been (and is) involved in the production of software for consoles. Firstly, the majority of the posters have shown a total lack of the economic realities of software production. For instance, several people suggested filling the disk with artist-produced pictures. Do these people understand how much time is involved in the production of such artwork? Two or three days at least per picture, at a hundred or two hundred dollars per day in wages for the artist, plus capital depreciation on the equipment used, plus rent etc. Artist produced pictures are *very* expensive. Several people also suggested high-quality audio. Sure, this is possible, but then you need to compose, arrange, and (most expensive) mix such a soundtrack, at anm average cost of several hundred dollars per hour of studio time. There are tracks you could use for free, but I haven't heard much lift muzak I would want in a game with my name on it! :-) So what could you put onto the disk? Well, digitized pictures have been suggested, though again there is a cost involved here. This cost may be slight if these pictures are bought from copyright-free stock, or it may be expensive if sets and studioes must be constructed or hired (of course the Amiga, with a Toaster or something similar does reduce post-production costs on video substantially!) Also, someone suggested verification codes (not a bad idea but reading them will make the game slow, and is eaily hacked), or "type-a-word" protection scheme (which will *really* irritate the users. There is, at last, a perception amongst the computer community of the difficulty and expense in writing software, but the extra costs such as graphic design and composing is still undervalued. This discussion is very interesting, but let's get a bit of perspective into it, and realise that practically *any* data put onto the disk is going to be costly. The idea of copy-protection on CD ROMs *is* worth considering, as long it is transparent to the user, and (above all else) reliable across hardware platforms. -- Ian Farquhar Phone : 61 2 805-9404 Office of Computing Services Fax : 61 2 805-7433 Macquarie University NSW 2109 Also : 61 2 805-7205 Australia EMail : ifarqhar@suna.mqcc.mq.oz.au
olsen@hpfcdq.HP.COM (John Olsen) (12/18/90)
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: >That is only 4 years away(1995) and that implies that we will all have CD >ROM drives in 4 years. I have no plans to buy a device that only 2 or 3 >games use and several programs (such as encyclopedias, fred fishisks,etc) >use. And I am almost certain game manufacturers won't produce A LOT for >this thing until enough applications such as the encyclopedia appear that >many many people will already have one. How many of you can remember way way back to when you would never need a floppy drive because you had everything on those nifty cassette tapes? >My last arguement is, not to be overly fussy, but what game do you know of >that takes up an entire cd rom? The largest game I currently know of ... And how many of you remember way way back when games would fit into 16K? Those floppy disks (the ones you finally broke down and bought) that could store 132K were absolutely HUGE!! >There just AREN'T many 3.2 gigabyte games available for amiga! Yet. If something is available and useful, it will first get used, then later depended on, just like floppies, hard disks and multiple megs of RAM. >To agree with you though, I suppose some new games could be produced which >used LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of digitized music and Images. Expect it. Especially lots of pictures. Digitized sound tends to have a much higher load-time:play-time ratio, so it's not as effective as a couple thousand HAM images. (IMHO) Instead of saying "nothing today uses this technology" why not ask "what can you do with this that was impossible before?" -- John M. Olsen, Graphics Technology Division (303)229-6746 olsen@hpfcjo.HP.COM, olsen@hpfcdq.HP.COM Hewlett-Packard, Mail Stop 74, 3404 E. Harmony Road, Ft Collins, CO 80525
ifarqhar@sunc.mqcc.mq.oz.au (Ian Farquhar) (12/19/90)
In article <9Baeu1w163w@kennels.actrix.gen.nz> sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Sleeping Beagle) writes: >ifarqhar@sunc.mqcc.mq.oz.au (Ian Farquhar) writes: > >[stuff deleted] > >> [Costs of producing a CD soundtrack for a game ] >This one's easy. People already make up soundtracks using such stuff as >Soundtracker/NoiseTracker/etc. Basically, with a CD-ROM you could make up >these and then TAPE them! (Just to annoy the pirates, no other benefit). Yes, but if people are going to buy a system that produces CD-quality sound (as CDTV is reported to do), then this is not going to satisfy them, is it? The sound output of the Amiga, though excellent by computer standards, is sneered at by every audio engineer I know. [...] >Don't you think that ten minutes of action sequences from Robocop (for >example) would greatly enhance the game? And of course it would be >VERY hard to copy. (THe film makers would like it too - it would >work as a sort of trailer/preview to encourage film sales.) Excellent point, though I am sure that the filmmakers would actually like the royalties much, much more... >Again, one of the best anti-pirate devices I saw was on Shadow of the >Unicorn for the Spectrum. It was a dongle with additional RAM and a >joystick port. Basically you had to have the dongle before you COULD play >the game! (It's a pity that the game was a flop... :-) Unless the cartridge plays an active role in the game which cannot be duplicated in software, the system is vulnerable. This one did, but then it also would have added an enormous cost to producing the game. -- Ian Farquhar Phone : 61 2 805-9400 Office of Computing Services Fax : 61 2 805-7433 Macquarie University NSW 2109 Also : 61 2 805-7420 Australia EMail : ifarqhar@suna.mqcc.mq.oz.au
sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Sleeping Beagle) (12/19/90)
ifarqhar@sunc.mqcc.mq.oz.au (Ian Farquhar) writes: [stuff deleted] > Several people also suggested high-quality audio. Sure, this is > possible, but then you need to compose, arrange, and (most expensive) > mix such a soundtrack, at anm average cost of several hundred dollars > per hour of studio time. There are tracks you could use for free, but I > haven't heard much lift muzak I would want in a game with my name on it! :-) This one's easy. People already make up soundtracks using such stuff as Soundtracker/NoiseTracker/etc. Basically, with a CD-ROM you could make up these and then TAPE them! (Just to annoy the pirates, no other benefit). Alternativewly, you could have one person using a computer for MIDI output which would then be taped. Both of these solutions are exactly as easy as current methods of developing music - and because the music would take up lots of ROM space - they would hard to pirate. > So what could you put onto the disk? Well, digitized pictures have been > suggested, though again there is a cost involved here. This cost may be > slight if these pictures are bought from copyright-free stock, or it may > be expensive if sets and studioes must be constructed or hired (of > course the Amiga, with a Toaster or something similar does reduce > post-production costs on video substantially!) Also, someone suggested > verification codes (not a bad idea but reading them will make the game > slow, and is eaily hacked), or "type-a-word" protection scheme (which > will *really* irritate the users. More to the point, there are a LOT of "game of the film" types out there. Don't you think that ten minutes of action sequences from Robocop (for example) would greatly enhance the game? And of course it would be VERY hard to copy. (THe film makers would like it too - it would work as a sort of trailer/preview to encourage film sales.) These of course would be digitised and take up a very large amount of space... The same applies to digitised sounds. It's not too hard to make up long sound samples (which still sound better than Speak on the Amiga) which could also add to the game. I think CD-Rom could definitely slow down piracy. Of course, this is assuming that there aren't people in the world with the capability to copy CD's to other CD's... However this is not home piracy but commercial piracy of course. Again, one of the best anti-pirate devices I saw was on Shadow of the Unicorn for the Spectrum. It was a dongle with additional RAM and a joystick port. Basically you had to have the dongle before you COULD play the game! (It's a pity that the game was a flop... :-) -- ** Official Signature for Sleeping Beagle (aka Thomas Farmer)! ** Mail : sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz Thomas.Farmer@bbs.actrix.gen.nz ** ** Disclaimers are for sick societies with too many lawyers.
glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) (12/19/90)
In article <4710021@hpfcdq.HP.COM> olsen@hpfcdq.HP.COM (John Olsen) writes: >Instead of saying "nothing today uses this technology" why not ask "what can >you do with this that was impossible before?" At first I expect to see intro sequences that run for 5 minutes with HAM ray-traced animation with huge soundtracks. It will take a while for people to begin to use the huge amount of data. Expect to see megabytes of data used for generating entire worlds in games, and all represented in 3d. Games where you can hook into a mapping system and view the world in 2d from above, with zoom etc. The games are going to be incredible, and other applications will be amazing too. I have already seen an ad for pysgnosis asking for more programmers to develop for CDTV. I think C= should send them a copy of Randell Jesups recent flame about game programming in comp.sys.amiga.tech and make them write it out 1000 times before giving them a development kit!! >John M. Olsen, Graphics Technology Division (303)229-6746 >olsen@hpfcjo.HP.COM, olsen@hpfcdq.HP.COM >Hewlett-Packard, Mail Stop 74, 3404 E. Harmony Road, Ft Collins, CO 80525 Regards, -- Matt Crowd Amiga Man Email Address glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au
andrewsr@steely.rutgers.edu (Rich Andrews) (12/20/90)
In article <4710021@hpfcdq.HP.COM> olsen@hpfcdq.HP.COM (John Olsen) writes: > specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: > > >That is only 4 years away(1995) and that implies that we will all have CD > >ROM drives in 4 years. I have no plans to buy a device that only 2 or 3 > >games use and several programs (such as encyclopedias, fred fishisks,etc) > >use. And I am almost certain game manufacturers won't produce A LOT for > >this thing until enough applications such as the encyclopedia appear that > >many many people will already have one. > > How many of you can remember way way back to when you would never need > a floppy drive because you had everything on those nifty cassette tapes? > True. But consider: 1. You cannot write to a CD-ROM. 2. Very large hard drives are dropping in price fast. 3. Prices on WORM drives are also dropping. 4. New technology around 5 years away will potentially wipe not only the CD-ROM, but WORM and hard drives. (Anyone else hear about the hologram-based technology which the Bandido mentioned? 1,000 Gigabytes, access in the nanoseconds, writable, etc.) Of course, it will take a few years for this technology to reduce in price to grab the lion's share. But, if it can even come close to what it sounds like, it *will* take over. I just think that the CD-ROM is fated. Mainly since you cannot write to them. But, if the price drops *significantly*, then it may sell enough to keep it around for a while. std. disclaimer. -Rich -- // Rich | "If there is nothing wrong with me, then maybe there is \X/ Andrews | something wrong with the universe." - Beverly (STTNG)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (12/20/90)
In article <Dec.19.22.32.44.1990.522@steely.rutgers.edu> andrewsr@steely.rutgers.edu (Rich Andrews) writes: > >I just think that the CD-ROM is fated. Mainly since you cannot write >to them. But, if the price drops *significantly*, then it may sell ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >enough to keep it around for a while. The last figure I heard was $2 for a CD in mass production. (Or was it 2 DM which would be 1$30?) So this is very similar to the price of a floppy or of the rest of the packaging. In my eyes this is "significantly low" in price. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (12/21/90)
In article <9Baeu1w163w@kennels.actrix.gen.nz> sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Sleeping Beagle) writes: >ifarqhar@sunc.mqcc.mq.oz.au (Ian Farquhar) writes: > >[stuff deleted] > >I think CD-Rom could definitely slow down piracy. Of course, this is >assuming that there aren't people in the world with the capability >to copy CD's to other CD's... However this is not home piracy but >commercial piracy of course. > I believe that commercial piracy will grow explosively if we ever manage to make a copy protection that normal hackers can't crack. >Again, one of the best anti-pirate devices I saw was on Shadow of the >Unicorn for the Spectrum. It was a dongle with additional RAM and a >joystick port. Basically you had to have the dongle before you COULD play >the game! (It's a pity that the game was a flop... :-) > If I recall correctly the protection device added a bit to the price. Was it 50% more expensive than similar games? The most interesting with this discussions is seeing how wrong we where when we can see the results. /Jorgen -- ******************************************************************************* email dvljhg@cs.umu.se - other ways to communicate are a waste of time. Everything I say is always true, just apply it to the right reality. "Credo, quia absurdum est." Credo in absurdum est?