farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) (12/14/90)
I recently received an HP DeskJet 500 printer, but when I went to use it with my Amiga 500, I was very dissappointed. Even though the printer can output up to 300x300 dpi (for $499!), the quality of the output from my word processor (ProWrite 3.1) is terrible (even though ProWrite is excellent!). After a little reading on printer drivers, I found out that (I think) that the printer drivers require the application to do all the imaging, then pass a bitmap or rast port to the driver to dump. Isn't this backwards? I mean, the application should tell the driver "Draw this text in this font at this location in this point size", and then the driver can do the best that it can, and remove the burden of some quality optimizing techniques from the application (or even the user). For example, if I want to use an 8 point font for my document, and if I print it out to a 300x300 dpi printer, then the driver should look for a font that is three to four times larger than 8 point, and substitute it for my 8 point font while scaling the overall size of the document down by three or four. This technique yields excellent quality output, and is relatively simple to do. The ProWrite documentation also covers this technique, but their solution is to have the user shrink the document down to 34% and then use 3x fonts, which is pretty unfeasable (I like to see the width of my document on the screen). Also, why aren't there any large font sizes included with the system software? I mean up to 72 point and beyond? Perhaps these have been addressed in WB2.0, I hope so. If not, however, then Commodore may wish to consider them. Cary -- +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Cary Farrier | Internet : farrier@apple.com | | Apple II Systems Software Engineering | UUCP : apple!farrier | | Apple Computer, Inc. | Fax : (408) 974-1704 | | 20525 Mariani Ave. | AppleLink : FARRIER | | Cupertino, CA 95014 | or farrier%applelink@apple.com | +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (12/15/90)
In article <47347@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: > >After a little reading on printer drivers, I found out that (I think) >that the printer drivers require the application to do all the imaging, >then pass a bitmap or rast port to the driver to dump. Yes. >I mean, the application should tell the driver "Draw this text in this >font at this location in this point size", and then the driver can >do the best that it can, and remove the burden of some quality optimizing >techniques from the application (or even the user). But to achieve this, every driver would have to know every existing font in every available size, or every driver would have to have a font scaling machine incorporated. I fear this is not feasible. And "try the best it can" would always lead to different results on different printers. So the word processing software simply wouldn't know how many characters fit on one line (prop spacing!) and it wouldn't be able to help the user in correct hyphenation. Or would you let this also to the printer driver? :-) The Amiga OS tries to get true copies of the screen bitplanes on every graphics capable printer, also dumb ones. You can choose density and anti-alisasing to improve quality. But there is no font engine built into the printer drivers. >Also, why aren't there any large font sizes included with the system >software? I mean up to 72 point and beyond? This is probably simply due to diskette space. If you have really big fonts, you only can put one or two on one diskette, and the Amiga OS is still distributed on floppies (not on tape, like UNIX). >Perhaps these have been addressed in WB2.0, I hope so. In WB 2.0 you have already simplified scalable fonts, a real scalable font engine (I think Compugraphic fonts) is said to appear soon. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) (12/15/90)
In article <47347@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: >I recently received an HP DeskJet 500 printer, but when I went to use >it with my Amiga 500, I was very dissappointed. Even though the printer >can output up to 300x300 dpi (for $499!), the quality of the output from >my word processor (ProWrite 3.1) is terrible (even though ProWrite is >excellent!). > >After a little reading on printer drivers, I found out that (I think) >that the printer drivers require the application to do all the imaging, >then pass a bitmap or rast port to the driver to dump. Isn't this backwards? You might read the 1.3 Dos update manual about the dithering and other adjustments in preferences. Also make sure you have preferences set for 300x300 resolution (on my vanilla DeskJet the setting is 4). The drivers do more than you think. Also the shipped DeskJet driver is not perfect. There is another out there called some- thing like betterdj or something like that. (any help here net??) >I mean, the application should tell the driver "Draw this text in this >font at this location in this point size", and then the driver can >do the best that it can, and remove the burden of some quality optimizing >techniques from the application (or even the user). For example, if The Amiga does not yet do scalable fonts as the mac so the application must still handle the generation of the bit map. The drivers (I believe) handle some smoothing functions, etc. Monty Saine
johnhlee@piccolo.cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) (12/15/90)
In article <47347@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: >I recently received an HP DeskJet 500 printer, but when I went to use >it with my Amiga 500, I was very dissappointed. Even though the printer >can output up to 300x300 dpi (for $499!), the quality of the output from >my word processor (ProWrite 3.1) is terrible (even though ProWrite is >excellent!). [...] >Perhaps these have been addressed in WB2.0, I hope so. If not, however, >then Commodore may wish to consider them. I believe this is the fault of ProWrite rather than the O/S. The printer driver accepts only two things: ANSI character output, and rastport bitmapped graphics dump. ProWrite uses the latter but scales the bitmap fonts so they look rather bad on your deskjet. Excellence! also gives poor results on my 180x180dpi PaintJet when using "normal" output mode. What you are asking for is system support for scalable fonts. However, since you can't ask the O/S to handle variable font sizes automatically without implementing something like TeX or Quickdraw, applications (ProWrite) must request the font and draw the rastport itself. Bitmapped scaled fonts are (will be? I'm not sure) supported in 2.0, with true outline fonts supported in the next release. The former does close to what you suggested, take the closest available font size to the needed resolution and scale. The latter takes a mathematical model of the font and creates the individual glyphs with the at the exact resolution desired when needed. In both cases, however, ProWrite is responsible for requesting the font at the right size, draw to a rastport, then dump it to the printer. Why do this? This allows the applications to do things like include graphics on the same page. On the other hand, you can do what I did and buy and use software that already supports outline fonts internally: Professional Page and Professional Draw. The Compugraphic Fonts are outline fonts that are created when needed (screen and printer) for maximum resolution. The output on my PaintJet looks absolutely gorgeous. I use it for reports. It's nice to turn in almost laser-sharp reports with color. With your DeskJet, output should look just like it came from a laser printer. Disclaimer: I have no connection to Gold Disk, other than being a satisfied customer. I am, however, awaiting notice of my upgrade to PPage 2.0... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (12/15/90)
I have found the awnser to "fixing the print quality" of Word procesors is to send then as NLQ or Draft... and even on Draft, may DJ+ more than satisfies (altough NLQ is for reports and such...) Raoul Rodriguez "Several errant electrons jumped when they shouldn't have at a place they shouldn't have, resulting in what shouldn't have. In short, a short." -Bloom County
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (12/15/90)
While you are mentioning PPage 1.3 and Pro Draw 2.0, both very good programs
indeed, let's not forget Pagestream 2.0, which handles all the Compugraphic
fonts that PPage handles, has a huge library of proprietary fonts (over 100)
available, and can (!) use unhinted Adobe fonts, giving the user access
to great display fonts like Am. Typewriter Bold, Cooper Black, Brush Script,
Dom Casual and many, many more. I have tried some Adobe fonts from Mac
format (xfered with Mac-To-DOS) and, while they are painfully slow displaying
to the screen on my A1000, print out just as fast as other fonts, and look
terrific. I bought PPage and Pagestream and used both extensively, and
tried PDraw 2.0. I have found the structured graphics tools in Pagestream
to be FAR easier to use than anything that Gold Disk's estimable products
can offer. And Pagestream 2.1 can import PDraw clips, according to the
advertisement!
--Rick Wrigley
fhwri@conncoll.bitnetroddi@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU (Roddi Walker) (12/15/90)
Hello, Net! I am looking for a program (or a combination of programs) that will give me printed text to the maximum resolution of my printer (an Epson LQ400 - 360x360 dpi, tho' the driver only goes up to 360x180). I need to be able to print documents with various font of varying sizes without the dreaded "jaggies". To so this, I fooled around with Excellence! 2.0 - it came with Postscript fonts of various sizes, which crashed my machine (A500 + 1MB ram) when I attempted to them out in "Graphic" mode. When I tried to print them out in "Postscript" mode, my printer just spewed out a document containing the postscript text description of my program. a document containing them. Do I need a program to convert the postscript commands to a bit- map my printer will understand - if so, any recommendations (preferably PD). If there is no hope for me using Excellence!, can anyone recommend another program that will give me smooth, large fonts on my printer. I do not really need DTP facilities such as including diagrams in my documents - in fact I would like to avoid DTP programs, as they tend to run nauseatingly slowly on my A500. Thanks in Advance, Roddi Walker roddi@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
hb136@leah.albany.edu (Herb Brown) (12/15/90)
In article <969@sagpd1.UUCP> monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) writes: > > 4). The drivers do more than you think. Also the shipped DeskJet > driver is not perfect. There is another out there called some- > thing like betterdj or something like that. (any help here net??) > > > Monty Saine Gerald Hull has written an excellent driver for the HPDJ called Super_DJ. It is part of a very very very helpful piece of software called DJ_Helper (Creative Focus, Box 580, Chenango Bridge, NY, 13745-0580). It permits you to bypass Preferences with many options resulting in spectacular output (If I can do it, YOU can do it!) I am a satisfied customer. I have no affiliation with Creative Focus. Herb -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herb Brown Math Dept The Univ at Albany Albany, NY 12222 (518) 442-4640 hibrown@leah.albany.edu or hibrown@cs.albany.edu or hb136@ALBNYVMS.BITNET ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (12/17/90)
In article <969@sagpd1.UUCP>, monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) says: > > The Amiga does not yet do scalable fonts as the mac so the > application must still handle the generation of the bit map. The printouts I get on my LaserJet IIP with ProPage 1.31 and Compu- graphic fonts dispute your claim that Amiga does not do scalable fonts. It most certainly does. Yes, the application handles the scaling itself, but that is because on the Mac, the scalable fonts you are referring to are Postscript; ATM works by interfacing with Postscript and downloading the fonts to the printer. If the printer is not Postscript, then ATM works exactly like the Amiga, creating the bitmap in memory and sending it as a bitmapped image. In that respect, the Mac and Amiga work the same way. And both ATM on Mac and Amiga CompuGraphic supporting applications show the fonts on the screen without jaggies. > The drivers (I believe) handle some smoothing functions, etc. The drivers do not handle the smoothing functions. Those are handled either by the applications on the computer (such as ATM on the Mac or ProPage on the Amiga) or the printer itself, if you are using Postscript and turn the smoothing function on. > Monty Saine Kurt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || With. Without. And who'll || || 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || deny it's what the fighting's || || Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || all about? - Pink Floyd || || jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || -----------------------------------------------------------------------
rosenber@ra.abo.fi (Robin Rosenberg INF) (12/17/90)
In article <90350.111658JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu> JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) writes >In article <969@sagpd1.UUCP>, monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) says: >> >> The Amiga does not yet do scalable fonts as the mac so the >> application must still handle the generation of the bit map. >The printouts I get on my LaserJet IIP with ProPage 1.31 and Compu- >graphic fonts dispute your claim that Amiga does not do scalable >fonts. It most certainly does. Yes, the application handles the >scaling itself, but that is because on the Mac, the scalable fonts >you are referring to are Postscript; ATM works by interfacing with >Postscript and downloading the fonts to the printer... The difference is whether the all applications have to do scaling themselves or if the system software does it. ProPage knows how to scale fonts, but it doesn't share this knowledge with other software. So runnimng ProPage doesn't give smooth scalable fonts in other programs than ProPage. >> The drivers (I believe) handle some smoothing functions, etc. >The drivers do not handle the smoothing functions. Those are handled >either by the applications on the computer (such as ATM on the Mac or >ProPage on the Amiga) or the printer itself, if you are using Postscript >and turn the smoothing function on. The printer device *does* handle smoothing for all graphics capable printers. Turn it on in the printer preferences. PostScript doesn't have smoothing built in. The jaggies may be well hidden in an image with low contrast due to the way the halftoning mechanism works. >> Monty Saine >|| Kurt Tappe ---------- Robin Rosenberg
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (12/17/90)
The improved (and how!) Deskjet printer driver is called DJHelper, and
is from:
Creative Focus
Box 580
Chenango Bridge NY
13745-0580
It's not just a printer driver; it comes with a Preferences-like program
that allows you to completely reconfigure your driver, either permanently
or on the fly. It is $49.95 and WORTH EVERY PENNY.
ProWrite users who are disappointed with Deskjet output should seriously
consider either ProPage or Pagestream, which use Compugraphic fonts, and
make the Deskjet shine. My current fave is Pagestream, which has FAR more
fonts (almost all of which print just great) than ProPage, and can do things
that ProPage 1.3 (I haven't seen PPage 2.0 yet) simply cannot do.
--Rick Wrigley
fhwri@conncoll.bitnetfarrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) (12/19/90)
In article <49751@cornell.UUCP> johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) writes: >I believe this is the fault of ProWrite rather than the O/S. The printer >driver accepts only two things: ANSI character output, and rastport bitmapped >graphics dump. ProWrite uses the latter but scales the bitmap fonts so they >look rather bad on your deskjet. Excellence! also gives poor results on >my 180x180dpi PaintJet when using "normal" output mode. > >What you are asking for is system support for scalable fonts. However, since >you can't ask the O/S to handle variable font sizes automatically without >implementing something like TeX or Quickdraw, applications (ProWrite) must >request the font and draw the rastport itself. What about graphics.library? All that Quickdraw is is just the Mac/GS version of the Amiga graphics.library. In order for an application to draw into a bitmap, it is most likely using the graphics library routines to draw into an offscreen rast port structure, then sending the resulting output to the printer driver. Also, the fault lies in the system software, not in the application. Would you ask every developer to create their own screen rendering routines, rather than supply a graphics.library? No, you wouldn't, because the results would be too varied and the quality would vary greatly. This is the same with printer drivers. > Bitmapped scaled fonts are >(will be? I'm not sure) supported in 2.0, with true outline fonts supported >in the next release. The former does close to what you suggested, take the >closest available font size to the needed resolution and scale. I don't suggest the automatic scaling of fonts, I suggested that a printer driver would be able to hunt for larger font sizes in the system that could be substituted. > The latter >takes a mathematical model of the font and creates the individual glyphs with >the at the exact resolution desired when needed. In both cases, however, >ProWrite is responsible for requesting the font at the right size, draw to >a rastport, then dump it to the printer. Why do this? This allows the >applications to do things like include graphics on the same page. This is a backwards approach. The application should tell the driver to draw all text, regardles of font and size. This would not hinder the rendering of graphics on the same page, as the application can just as easily send a bitmap to be placed at a given location on the page. >On the other hand, you can do what I did and buy and use software that already >supports outline fonts internally: Professional Page and Professional Draw. >The Compugraphic Fonts are outline fonts that are created when needed >(screen and printer) for maximum resolution. The output on my PaintJet looks >absolutely gorgeous. I use it for reports. It's nice to turn in almost >laser-sharp reports with color. With your DeskJet, output should look just >like it came from a laser printer. Yes, it sounds like I will have to do something along those lines. I think that I will be getting the PostScript module for ProWrite, and a utility to dump postscript to my DJ. > John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu >The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine. Thanks for the opinions. Cary -- +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Cary Farrier | Internet : farrier@apple.com | | Apple II Systems Software Engineering | UUCP : apple!farrier | | Apple Computer, Inc. | Fax : (408) 974-1704 | | 20525 Mariani Ave. | AppleLink : FARRIER | | Cupertino, CA 95014 | or farrier%applelink@apple.com | +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) (12/19/90)
In article <641@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >But to achieve this, every driver would have to know every existing >font in every available size, or every driver would have to have a >font scaling machine incorporated. I fear this is not feasible. Not really, the driver could just look for a larger existing font size or scale the existing font. Scaling would not be too hard, it is simply a bit map magnification, and smoothing is already implemented. >And "try the best it can" would always lead to different results on >different printers. So the word processing software simply wouldn't >know how many characters fit on one line (prop spacing!) and it wouldn't >be able to help the user in correct hyphenation. Or would you let this >also to the printer driver? :-) No, it wouldn't. The point sizes of fonts and the kerning information is standard information in the system, readily available. By "try the best it can", I meant that the driver could attempt the best possible output quality, but it doesn't have to break the rules to do so. >The Amiga OS tries to get true copies of the screen bitplanes on every >graphics capable printer, also dumb ones. You can choose density and >anti-alisasing to improve quality. But there is no font engine built >into the printer drivers. There doesn't need to be, a printer driver can use graphics.library just as easily as any other process. >In WB 2.0 you have already simplified scalable fonts, a real scalable >font engine (I think Compugraphic fonts) is said to appear soon. I look forware to the day that 2.0 will run on all the Amigas, then. Cary -- +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Cary Farrier | Internet : farrier@apple.com | | Apple II Systems Software Engineering | UUCP : apple!farrier | | Apple Computer, Inc. | Fax : (408) 974-1704 | | 20525 Mariani Ave. | AppleLink : FARRIER | | Cupertino, CA 95014 | or farrier%applelink@apple.com | +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
cfarmer@convex.com (Claude Farmer) (12/19/90)
Having bought a LaserJet IIP recently, I too have noticed some problems
with print quality, especially using converted MAC fonts. I know there
is DJHelper for deskjets, but is there something similar for LaserJets?
This would be a great help, especially since I don't have the money to
upgrade to Postscript in the near future or get an accelerator board.
Thanks,
--
----
Claude Farmer Convex Computer Corporation Richardson, Texas
{uiucdcs,sun,uunet,harvard,usenix}!convex!cfarmer Home: (214) 363-0987
convex!cfarmer@a.cs.uiuc.EDU Work: (214) 497-4732peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (12/19/90)
The reason the Apple fonts looks so good on dot matrix printers is simple: they designed the printer and the fonts alike to match the screen. Until very recently the only printers you could really use on the Mac were *their* dot matrix printer and laserprinters. If you have to support a wide variety of printers it's a lot harder to make them all look good, with different print densities and aspect ratios. You pays your money and takes your choice... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
johnhlee@hermod.cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) (12/21/90)
In article <47459@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: [...] >What about graphics.library? All that Quickdraw is is just the Mac/GS version >of the Amiga graphics.library. In order for an application to draw into >a bitmap, it is most likely using the graphics library routines to draw >into an offscreen rast port structure, then sending the resulting output >to the printer driver. > >Also, the fault lies in the system software, not in the application. Would >you ask every developer to create their own screen rendering routines, >rather than supply a graphics.library? No, you wouldn't, because the >results would be too varied and the quality would vary greatly. This is the >same with printer drivers. You misunderstood me. Of course graphics.library supplies drawing primitives. You are asking for an image description model like Postscript. The fault is not in the system software because the system software was never designed to support such capabilities. The application has very clear idea of what you want (print using a font at a specific point-size) and it can print that font at the printer's resolution by using a font with larger pixel dimensions, utilizing the system-supplied routines. [...] >I don't suggest the automatic scaling of fonts, I suggested that a printer >driver would be able to hunt for larger font sizes in the system that could >be substituted. The printer driver has no concept of a font. [...] >This is a backwards approach. The application should tell the driver to >draw all text, regardles of font and size. This would not hinder the >rendering of graphics on the same page, as the application can just as >easily send a bitmap to be placed at a given location on the page. Again, you are assuming the printer driver has more capabilities than it does. It does not implement a high-level output model like Postscript, nor does it maintain a printer image buffer (too much memory.) There is no way to tell the driver to "print font x at size y at position z" besides the limited ANSI character-based printer control. The printer driver is designed to be fast, lightweight, and simple--present an ANSI ASCII printer and a rastport-dump interface. However, this job is ideal for a different system driver that supports such a model and dumps to the printer driver. The HPGL driver posted previously is a perfect example. [...] >Thanks for the opinions. You're welcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.
farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) (12/22/90)
In article <50001@cornell.UUCP> johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) writes: >You misunderstood me. Of course graphics.library supplies drawing >primitives. You are asking for an image description model like Postscript. >The fault is not in the system software because the system software was >never designed to support such capabilities. The application has very clear >idea of what you want (print using a font at a specific point-size) and it >can print that font at the printer's resolution by using a font with larger >pixel dimensions, utilizing the system-supplied routines. Why don't you quit saying that I misunderstood you and quit telling me what I am asking for. Of course I know what I am asking for, I don't need you to repeat it back to me. The problem *IS* in the system software *BECAUSE* it *WAS NOT* designed to support such capabilities. The problem is being addressed in the >2.0 versions of the system, so Commodore obviously recognizes it as a problem. >The printer driver has no concept of a font. So tell me something I don't know! The whole problem with the printer drivers is that they have no concept of anything other than ASCII text and bitmaps! In order to get good print quality as a standard for all applications, the *DRIVER* needs to know about such things. >Again, you are assuming the printer driver has more capabilities than it >does. It does not implement a high-level output model like Postscript, nor >does it maintain a printer image buffer (too much memory.) There is no way >to tell the driver to "print font x at size y at position z" besides the >limited ANSI character-based printer control. You shouldn't assume that I am assuming. I wouldn't have started this thread if the driver had these capabilities, because the problem would not exist. > John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu Cary -- +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Cary Farrier | Internet : farrier@apple.com | | Apple II Systems Software Engineering | UUCP : apple!farrier | | Apple Computer, Inc. | Fax : (408) 974-1704 | | 20525 Mariani Ave. | AppleLink : FARRIER | | Cupertino, CA 95014 | or farrier%applelink@apple.com | +---------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
johnhlee@hermod.cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) (12/22/90)
In article <47537@apple.Apple.COM> farrier@Apple.COM (Cary Farrier) writes: [...] >Why don't you quit saying that I misunderstood you and quit telling me what >I am asking for. Of course I know what I am asking for, I don't need you >to repeat it back to me. The problem *IS* in the system software *BECAUSE* >it *WAS NOT* designed to support such capabilities. The problem is >being addressed in the >2.0 versions of the system, so Commodore obviously >recognizes it as a problem. [...] >So tell me something I don't know! The whole problem with the printer >drivers is that they have no concept of anything other than ASCII text >and bitmaps! In order to get good print quality as a standard for all >applications, the *DRIVER* needs to know about such things. [...] >You shouldn't assume that I am assuming. I wouldn't have started this >thread if the driver had these capabilities, because the problem would >not exist. First of all, calm down. I never meant to make a personal attack on you. It was never clear to me that what you want is a complete redesign of the printer device specifiication. I agree that it would be nice, but it's not really feasible given that the printer device must work with practically every and any printer out there known to Science. Others have better stated this. 2.0 and beyond still does not add advanced text capabilities to the printer driver. It only adds the ability of applications to request an arbitrary font size and have the system either resize an existing bitmap font or, in later systems, create it from an outline font specification. Period. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.