ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) (12/18/90)
I was sitting around today, thinking about expansion for my 500, when
I came upon what seems to be a very good idea. What is Commodore famous
for? I mean, what makes Commodore the company we all know and love? It's
the fact that they always have offered tomorrow's computer at today's
price. Well, as much as I love my 500 (And it's still a more advanced
machine than most of what Apple or IBM puts out.), I think it's time for
Commodore to reposition theirself as a clear winner in the under-$1000
market range. Note that I'm not talking about the 2000+ series of machines,
they're another topic all together. I am saying that I think Commodore
needs to introduce one or two new models in the under-$1000 market range.
Here's what I came up with:
If you want to keep the 500 as a under-$500 Amiga:
1) Commodore should provide the 500 with a new expansion box which you can
buy as an addon and plug into the expansion bus on the 500, in much the
same style and fashion as the Bodega Bay. Price- $300 to $350. This box can
be used to bring your ordinary 500 into the world of the newer features
found on newer Amigas (IE: 24bit graphic cards, 68030 CPU cards, RAM, etc.)
2) Add one new model to the Amiga line for a price of around $800. This
new machine is mainly a 1500A ( "?" See info about Commodore's new model
show in Europe.) look-alike. This machine will have the following features:
o 68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o 1.5 MEG of true 32 BIT RAM
o 3 Amiga ZorroIII slots o A CPU Slot o A Video Slot (All slots same as
2000's.) o A new Commodore STANDARD 24BIT Graphic Board (Lowrell U? (SP?)
This board will either be a card in one of the ZorroIII slots or built into
the motherboard.) o 3.5" 1.5 (or more) MEG Floppy [END OF FEATURE LIST]
This machine, incase you haven't seen the 1500 (?), has a detached keyboard
and looks somewhat like a 1000. You can also order this machine with SCSI
controller and hard drive installed. The machine has room for one more 3.5"
drive, so you can either add another floppy, put a hard drive there, or
stick the hard drive on your hardcard if you want. Remember that the mother-
board is 32 bit, with the custom chips all using 32 bit pathways (or at
least as much as the 3000 does). Remember too that we are not competing
with the 2000 series machines here. They'll be fitted and priced similarly.
If you are ready to drop the 500, in a sense:
1) The above machine will still be the same, price and everything.
2) The 500 with simply be changed, motherboard-wise. The changes to the
normal-looking 500 will include: o A 32 Bit Motherboard o 1 or 1.5 MEG RAM
(32 bit) o The new 32 bit special Chips o 24bit Graphics built in o A
68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o The provision of a expansion
box which can be bought later on, to bring the 500's ability up to that of
the above computer, along with the 2000 and 3000 series machines.
Well, I think this would be a killer idea for Commodore to think over.
Commodore well sell a lot of machines by providing the first '30 CPU and
24bit graphics machine at a under-$1000 price. Nobody has done this yet.
If you think about it, the market of under-$1000 machines has been unchanged
since the 68000s were introduced. The 68000 machines are still there, with
no new breed of computer hitting the market (yet). Also forgot to mention
that people shouldn't worry about 24bit graphics being an incompatible
issue in the future. I'm sure Commodore will come up with some type of
driver, along with maybe a little hardware, to make the thing emulate the
old Amiga graphic modes. No problem there, probably. What does everybody
think?
Tom
--
...............................
| Amiga...The computer for _ |
| the creative mind! _ // |
|.......................\\//..|kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/18/90)
In <9012180315.AA23854@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)... >[gives a neat list of features for a hot computer and concludes...] >Well, I think this would be a killer idea for Commodore to think over. >Commodore well sell a lot of machines by providing the first '30 CPU and >24bit graphics machine at a under-$1000 price. Nobody has done this yet. Great list! And yes, I bet they'd sell zillions, no doubt about it. Alas, there is a reason nobody has done this yet... cost. We recently looked into building a similarily equipped machine. Surprise: our estimated retail price was right up there past the current A3000. Simply designing around the 030 itself adds minimum $400-600 to retail. And then you still have video, I/O, memory, keyboard, case, etc costs. But perhaps in a coupla years someone will take you up on it! >I'm sure Commodore will come up with some type of driver, along with >maybe a little hardware, to make the thing emulate the old Amiga >graphic modes. No problem there, probably. Hard to judge. Depends on whether they include backward-mode hardware, or pull a Bridgeboard video trick. My instinct is that virtually all the "fancy" Amiga apps directly diddle video memory at some point (I'd be happy to know of exceptions; AmigaVision probably doesn't (?)). Perhaps the best solution is a video overlay: continue using original video hardware for current programs, use new hardware only for newer apps. I'd like to hear a knowledgeable discussion of this. - kev | <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>, who seems stuck as a devil's advocate <sigh> | Must be a consequence of pushing 40, with your own biz. Help! ;-) | (But I swear I'm still trying to change the world!)
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (12/19/90)
Re: Amiga marketing
A friend of mine in the local computer store, after seeing the Amiga ads in
the British AMIGA RESOURCE, wrote CBM and offered to pay for the plane ticket
for the guy who designed the various Amiga packages (the graphics) to come
here, if they'd pay his salary. To put it another way, most people, seeing
the 500C and the 500P side-by-side, will buy the 500C.
--Rick Wrigley
fhwri@conncoll.bitnetlcline@sequent.com (Larry Cline) (12/19/90)
In article <9012180315.AA23854@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) writes: I was sitting around today, thinking about expansion for my 500, when I came upon what seems to be a very good idea. What is Commodore famous for? I mean, what makes Commodore the company we all know and love? It's the fact that they always have offered tomorrow's computer at today's price. Well, as much as I love my 500 (And it's still a more advanced machine than most of what Apple or IBM puts out.), I think it's time for Commodore to reposition theirself as a clear winner in the under-$1000 market range. Note that I'm not talking about the 2000+ series of machines, they're another topic all together. I am saying that I think Commodore needs to introduce one or two new models in the under-$1000 market range. Here's what I came up with: If you want to keep the 500 as a under-$500 Amiga: 1) Commodore should provide the 500 with a new expansion box which you can buy as an addon and plug into the expansion bus on the 500, in much the same style and fashion as the Bodega Bay. Price- $300 to $350. This box can be used to bring your ordinary 500 into the world of the newer features found on newer Amigas (IE: 24bit graphic cards, 68030 CPU cards, RAM, etc.) 2) Add one new model to the Amiga line for a price of around $800. This new machine is mainly a 1500A ( "?" See info about Commodore's new model show in Europe.) look-alike. This machine will have the following features: o 68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o 1.5 MEG of true 32 BIT RAM o 3 Amiga ZorroIII slots o A CPU Slot o A Video Slot (All slots same as 2000's.) o A new Commodore STANDARD 24BIT Graphic Board (Lowrell U? (SP?) This board will either be a card in one of the ZorroIII slots or built into the motherboard.) o 3.5" 1.5 (or more) MEG Floppy [END OF FEATURE LIST] This machine, incase you haven't seen the 1500 (?), has a detached keyboard and looks somewhat like a 1000. You can also order this machine with SCSI controller and hard drive installed. The machine has room for one more 3.5" drive, so you can either add another floppy, put a hard drive there, or stick the hard drive on your hardcard if you want. Remember that the mother- board is 32 bit, with the custom chips all using 32 bit pathways (or at least as much as the 3000 does). Remember too that we are not competing with the 2000 series machines here. They'll be fitted and priced similarly. If you are ready to drop the 500, in a sense: 1) The above machine will still be the same, price and everything. 2) The 500 with simply be changed, motherboard-wise. The changes to the normal-looking 500 will include: o A 32 Bit Motherboard o 1 or 1.5 MEG RAM (32 bit) o The new 32 bit special Chips o 24bit Graphics built in o A 68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o The provision of a expansion box which can be bought later on, to bring the 500's ability up to that of the above computer, along with the 2000 and 3000 series machines. Well, I think this would be a killer idea for Commodore to think over. Commodore well sell a lot of machines by providing the first '30 CPU and 24bit graphics machine at a under-$1000 price. Nobody has done this yet. If you think about it, the market of under-$1000 machines has been unchanged since the 68000s were introduced. The 68000 machines are still there, with no new breed of computer hitting the market (yet). Also forgot to mention that people shouldn't worry about 24bit graphics being an incompatible issue in the future. I'm sure Commodore will come up with some type of driver, along with maybe a little hardware, to make the thing emulate the old Amiga graphic modes. No problem there, probably. What does everybody think? Tom -- ............................... | Amiga...The computer for _ | | the creative mind! _ // | |.......................\\//..| It seems like you think that C= is making huge profits off it's 500 sales and can afford to redesign the thing, add more to it and sell it for less. While I can't state it as fact, I am reasonably assured by my experience and knowledge that in order to do what you want would put the cost of the 500 over the 'under-$1000' range. The price of the 500 will probably continue to fall as the initial costs of development and production are regained through existing sales, but there will always be a bottom and it won't be $179.95 B-) Second, why should C= be responsible for producing all these add-ons. That's what 3rd party developers are for. Why should C= make an expansion box like the Bodega Bay when the Bodega Bay is already there. To jump into competition with their supporters in the 3rd party market is cutting their own throat. Another good reason for C= not to produce such things is cost. You have to remember that with large companies you have large overhead. Everything that a company has to sell has to cover its share of the overhead and make a profit. I don't know how many times I've heard somebody say; 'This part only costs $.79. The Company could put it in, charge $.85 and make more money.' Except a large company might end up having to charge a lot more to actually make money. Some company figures I have seen have that small addition charged at $2.50 to make money. The best bet is for medium sized companies which can buy in the volumes to get the price break and have a smaller overhead than the large company. I feel that it might help C= to come out with two new machines, one is a 68030 based 500 (I like to call it the Hi-Five) with 2.0 and all that fun stuff. Basically a low end 3000 that is minimally expandable. (And I'm not even going to suggest a price because it would probably fall in the $2000 range.) The second machine would actually be a low end 2000 designed to fall in the mid range between the 500 and 2000. The usual cost cutting measures such as reduced footprint, no I*M slots or Bridge slots, smaller power supply and such. Might be able to put it at a suggested list between $1000 and $1200. There is a lot more to all this but it would take a couple of years and a few business and economics courses to explain it all. Larry -- Larry Cline lcline@sequent.sequent.com lcline@crg8.sequent.com ".sig! Contractors don't need no stinkin' .sig!!!"
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (12/19/90)
In article <9012180315.AA23854@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) writes... > > > I was sitting around today, thinking about expansion for my 500, when [Stuff deleted] >Here's what I came up with: > > If you want to keep the 500 as a under-$500 Amiga: > >1) Commodore should provide the 500 with a new expansion box which you can >buy as an addon and plug into the expansion bus on the 500, in much the >same style and fashion as the Bodega Bay. Price- $300 to $350. This box can >be used to bring your ordinary 500 into the world of the newer features >found on newer Amigas (IE: 24bit graphic cards, 68030 CPU cards, RAM, etc.) > >2) Add one new model to the Amiga line for a price of around $800. This >new machine is mainly a 1500A ( "?" See info about Commodore's new model >show in Europe.) look-alike. This machine will have the following features: >o 68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o 1.5 MEG of true 32 BIT RAM >o 3 Amiga ZorroIII slots o A CPU Slot o A Video Slot (All slots same as >2000's.) o A new Commodore STANDARD 24BIT Graphic Board (Lowrell U? (SP?) All of this, especially the 040, would cost Commodore quite a bit more than $800 to make. It might be possible to do this with a 68020. Hardly with an 030 or even 040. >This board will either be a card in one of the ZorroIII slots or built into >the motherboard.) o 3.5" 1.5 (or more) MEG Floppy [END OF FEATURE LIST] What you are suggesting is basically what the 3000 already is. If that is the case, why redesign the machine when they can just drop the price of the 3000. Then to add the graphics card will add even MORE to the price, assuring that Commodore couldn't produce this machine for $800. What might be more reasonable for the A1520 (renamed from the A1500) ? A 68020 w/o math chip with 1 or 2 Zorro II slots. 1 of those slots is a video slot. 1 meg. A deinterlacer, if possible. A SCSI on motherboard, if possible. Motherboard memory expansion to 4 megs. 1 meg chip. Standard graphics. Video slot would assure graphics upgrades or the toaster. For about $1000. Then introduce the A2020. The same setup as the 2000 with an 020 chip on motherboard and a math chip, for about $1600. The A1520 would have room for only 2 3.5 floppies internally. The SCSI would be external. [stuff about SCSI's, Detachable keyboards and floppies deleted] >If you are ready to drop the 500, in a sense: > >1) The above machine will still be the same, price and everything. > >2) The 500 with simply be changed, motherboard-wise. The changes to the >normal-looking 500 will include: o A 32 Bit Motherboard o 1 or 1.5 MEG RAM >(32 bit) o The new 32 bit special Chips o 24bit Graphics built in o A >68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o The provision of a expansion >box which can be bought later on, to bring the 500's ability up to that of >the above computer, along with the 2000 and 3000 series machines. To add the above modifications to the 500 would remove it from the market it is in now. Let's just leave the 500 the way it is in the processor sense. Once you have added an 030 or 040 then it's not quite a 500 is it? Not to mention the developmental costs. > Well, I think this would be a killer idea for Commodore to think over. >Commodore well sell a lot of machines by providing the first '30 CPU and >24bit graphics machine at a under-$1000 price. Nobody has done this yet. I agree, but I think Commodore might lose out in the end trying this. It's probably not a good idea at this point. >If you think about it, the market of under-$1000 machines has been unchanged >since the 68000s were introduced. The 68000 machines are still there, with >no new breed of computer hitting the market (yet). Also forgot to mention >that people shouldn't worry about 24bit graphics being an incompatible >issue in the future. I'm sure Commodore will come up with some type of >driver, along with maybe a little hardware, to make the thing emulate the >old Amiga graphic modes. No problem there, probably. What does everybody >think? About the ONLY possibility of a > 68000 CPU computer going below the the $1000 price is the 020. 68020's can be had for a relatively cheap price retail, so I can imagine what Commodore could get them for. > Tom -Brian Wright -wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu
WHE46@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Marc Barrett) (12/19/90)
In Message <9012180315.AA23854@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> <ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> writes: >2) The 500 with simply be changed, motherboard-wise. The changes to the >normal-looking 500 will include: o A 32 Bit Motherboard o 1 or 1.5 MEG RAM >(32 bit) o The new 32 bit special Chips o 24bit Graphics built in o A >68030 or 68040 CPU running at at least 16Mhz o The provision of a expansion >box which can be bought later on, to bring the 500's ability up to that of >the above computer, along with the 2000 and 3000 series machines. > > Well, I think this would be a killer idea for Commodore to think over. >Commodore well sell a lot of machines by providing the first '30 CPU and >24bit graphics machine at a under-$1000 price. Nobody has done this yet. Sure, and while Commodore is at it they can sell me a Ferarri Testerosa on a stick for five dollars and 98 cents. I doubt Commodore could MANUFACTURE the systems you are talking about for less than $800, let alone sell them profitably at that price. Remember than most of the cost of a system is not the cost to make it, but added costs such as dealer profit margins, quality control and marketing costs, and profit margins for Commodore themselves. A new machine is needed to go mid-way between the Amiga 500 in the low-end and the Amiga 3000/16 in the high end. The A2000 is just far too overpriced and underpowered to fill this role. Such a machine to fill this gap should simply be an Amiga 500 with detached keyboard, 30M hard drive, and display enhancer. No 600Ghz clock speeds, no 32-bit pseudo-RISC processors, no 32-bit color. Commodore could give such a machine a list price of $1500, discount it to $1000, and still make bundles on it. >[some mindless mumbling deleted] >What does everybody >think? I think you need to learn a little about economics and marketing. > Tom > >-- > ............................... > | Amiga...The computer for _ | > | the creative mind! _ // | > |.......................\\//..|
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (12/19/90)
Ok, it's Christmas time, time for wishes. So I'm going to throw
in my thoughts of about what seems possible to me to blow up
the A500 to even more power:
- replace that A501 bay by an array of RAM sockets as in the 3000
(is perhaps rather cost-neutral)
- provide one Zorro II and one video slot, the cards arranged
lying flat above the main board (perhaps the case would get
a little higher). The two slot connectors are arranged ca. in
the middle of the main board so that one card covers the back
half and the other one the front half of the mainboard.
The cards would have their end strips at the
left side, replacing the current expansion connector. There
could be provided a means to make it still possible to connect
current expansion devices by using a simple adapter cable from
the Zorro II slot plus an extra connector inside that provides
the remaining pins for the expansion bus. Or make this cable
really a Zorro card, stretching to the outside with the
compatible expansion connector, fetching the remaining bus
signals from that mentioned internal extra connector.
- put an RTC on the mainboard
- perhaps provide a SCSI controller on-board
- processor: as far as I heard, the 68020 has no big future,
so either take a 68000 with 14 MHz or a 68030 (aren't there
rumors of Motorola launching a cheap, 16-bit version of it?)
Make processor speed switchable back to 7 MHz for compatibility
purposes
- naturally, use ECS, provide for 2 MB chip RAM
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterkpeter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (12/19/90)
In article <1990Dec18.214018.15242@solo.csci.unt.edu> wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu writes: > About the ONLY possibility of a > 68000 CPU computer going below the the > $1000 price is the 020. 68020's can be had for a relatively cheap price > retail, so I can imagine what Commodore could get them for. What about the 68EC030? That's a 68030 with no MMU targeted at the embedded controller market. It's supposed to be considerably cheaper than the '030, and the lack of an MMU wouldn't be a major handicap in an Amiga. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (12/19/90)
[why do people insist on quoting the WHOLE BLOODY ARTICLE?] How about this: the Amiga 750: An Amiga 500 in an Amiga 1000 case, with a small (read, cheap) built-in hard drive. You get the separate keyboard and hard disk, which clearly marks it as "not a toy", but you can retail for O($1000) and wipe the Mac Classic out of the ring. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) (12/19/90)
(Reply to Mark Barrett: Yes, I have followed the market, for well over
ten years now...Enough to invest and make money, how about you?)
To all saying that such a machine is impossible:
You seem to be forgetting what the computer market place is all about.
This is not a far-featched idea. Remember that what was priced high
yesterday is sold dirt cheap today. Let's take a look at a few of the
higher priced features (And remember that this was a wish list, not the
bible! I swear...): A 68030 CPU running at 16Mhz. Aren't plain 68000s
running real cheap now compared to how much they cost one or two years ago?
What's the reason behind this? It is, of course, the release of newer CPUs
in the series which have made the 68000 old news. The same is happening
with the 68020 and will soon happen with the 68030. Anybody who thinks the
68020 won't be selling for the 68000's price real soon now, and that the
68030 won't be dropping any time soon either doesn't follow computers much.
24bit graphics: There are already "24"bit graphics cards out for the Amiga
line costing under or about $300. The MAST production is one that I can
think of.
1.5 MEG 3.5" drives costing $300 or more (sent to me in email)? Come on,
when's the last time you picked up an IBM publication. Their doing it with
normal drives and encoding through software. While this is impossible for
the current line of Amigas, a new Paula chip with a little tweaking will
cure the problem.
Zorro slots and a detached keyboard: Anybody SEE the Bodega Bay or the
A1500?
Don't reply to me like that list is written in stone. A 680X0 based machine
with 1 to 1.5 MEG or RAM, 24BIT graphics, a drive the reads and writes 1.5
MEG disks, a detached keyboard, and 3 Zorro slots is not an impossible task.
I wager that Commodore could do it now, but by the time the thing comes out
in a year or more it'll be even more "cheap" to build. Where are people's
imaginations? Is it so hard to think back to around 86 when the 1000 was
selling for over $1000? The market changes, and Commodore has always pushed
value to the edge.
One thing is very obvious to me. The under-$1000 market needs something
newer than the plain 68000 CPU and 8 bit graphics. If Commodore doesn't do
it, somebody will. As a matter of fact, an Atari user wrote me about a new
Atari pushing this edge. Rumors...rumors...rumors...
Tom
--
...............................
| Amiga...The computer for _ |
IBM (I've Been Mislead) | the creative mind! _ // | Amiga+AMAX=MAC+$$$!!!
|.......................\\//..|kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/20/90)
In gentle reply to ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)'s <9012191335.AA17268@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu>: > I wager that Commodore could do it now, but by the time the thing > comes out in a year or more it'll be even more "cheap" to build. Okay, that makes your intent _much_ clearer. A "year or more" from now is a long time, and brings it more into the realm of possibility. Please allow me to add some side comments which may be of interest or help, from our experience designing those new OS-9 68K machines: You're right about the 1.5meg drives! They're inexpensive if you have a disk controller that can handle them. OEM cost? <$50. The 68020: Dirt cheap now. But we couldn't find a supplier willing to guarantee quantities. Our guesses are that Apple grabbed all in sight, and also that Motorola intends to drop it soon (anyone know?). We did make a board set (it's now in use around the country in things such as 125 feet per minute 36" printers) with a 16mhz 68030...and for our own home use we added DMA HDfloppy/SCSI and 256 from 16-million color graphics boards into the 6-slot backplane. The actual parts cost (excluding the 6-layer board layout, etc) was only around $500 to hand assemble one. But throw in floppies, case, keyboard, mouse, pwr supply, packaging, software costs, and dealer discounts (can't forget that!)... and you'd end up with an easily $3000-range *retail* machine. The question is then: how much will the cost change in a year or so? <scratching head> Hard to say. I wonder just how much Motorola will drop the 030 price without risking undermining the 040, for instance. RAM will drop more, we hope. But some of the main costs (labor, case and other needed hardware, marketing, software) will stay fairly level. > One thing is very obvious to me. The under-$1000 market needs something > newer than the plain 68000 CPU and 8 bit graphics. If Commodore doesn't > do it, somebody will. Yes, somebody surely will. And if it pushes others in the 68K market to do the same, then all the better! cheers - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/20/90)
In article <9012191335.AA17268@cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu> ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes: > You seem to be forgetting what the computer market place is all about. >This is not a far-featched idea. Remember that what was priced high >yesterday is sold dirt cheap today. But these things drop in price evolutionarily, not revolutionarily. The only drastic price breaks happen with revolution, and not even then. If one semiconductor vendor figured out some magic new process that cut the cost of a DRAM down to 10% of today's cost, they wouldn't necessarily deliver it at that rate if they could sell all they can make at some higher price. You have to look at the main reason for price cuts, which is competition. >Let's take a look at a few of the higher priced features (And remember that >this was a wish list, not the bible! I swear...): A 68030 CPU running at 16Mhz. >Aren't plain 68000s running real cheap now compared to how much they cost >one or two years ago? Not really. They've been well under $5.00, in quantities, for many years. >What's the reason behind this? It is, of course, the release of newer CPUs >in the series which have made the 68000 old news. Partially. But it's much more so that Motorola isn't the only one making 68000s. You can get them from Thompson/Signetics, Hitachi, probably a few other companies. So if Motorola prices theirs at $10, and everyone else at $5, Motorola wouldn't likely sell any 68000s. The same thing happened to '286 chips for the PC clones to a degree; with AMD competing with Intel, the '286 prices plunged. Expect that to happen eventually with the '386, but not the '030, since the '030 is still single sourced. It's rare that the cost of a medium to high end microprocessor is based that much on what it costs the company to make. The cost is based on what the market will take. With so many folks absolutely dependent on the '386, Intel has managed to keep the price so far at astronomical levels compared to the value of the part had these folks an alternative. The Motorola market is better -- while folks like C= and Apple building PCs are dependent on the 680x0 family for much the same reasons, Motorola sells a much higher volume of parts into industrial control and other markets, where a hot new RISC chip at a low enough price might convince a company not overly concerned with binary compatibility to switch over. So pricing on '030 is balanced by the market it's in, but there is still no obvious force pushing it toward the price point you'd need to put it in an A500. >Anybody who thinks the 68020 won't be selling for the 68000's price real soon >now, and that the 68030 won't be dropping any time soon either doesn't follow >computers much. Anyone who thinks it will doesn't follow computers enough. The only way you'll see a drastic drop in the 68020 price is to let other folks make it, which was discussed some time ago. The 68030, though, still looks to be single sourced for many days to come. Motorola has been good about it, though. They can offer lower cost packaging or cheaper versions and maintain their profit margins while giving us the option of more price points. Examples, other than the PQFP 68030 used in the A3000 (much less cost that the PGA version used in the A2630), are the 68EC030, which is an '030 without MMU, and the 680EC020, which is a low cost '020 with only around 24 bits of address. And you don't necessarily have to have a CPU cost AS low as a 68000 to put it in an A500, but you have to have one under a certain point, so as not to push the A500 cost beyond certain "consumer buy points". > 24bit graphics: There are already "24"bit graphics cards out for the Amiga >line costing under or about $300. The MAST production is one that I can >think of. There is, of course, a world of difference between a true graphics device and a "clever hack". Both have their place, I suppose. But as add ons, you have a choice. Built in, we realize that some folks would like a 24 bit display buffer that ran at 340x(400|512) interlace, while other would rather have a 1024x768x8 or 1680x1200x2 display. You might find that these are at considerable odds with one another when it comes to building them into a single chip set. Especially for a low end machine. > Don't reply to me like that list is written in stone. A 680X0 based machine >with 1 to 1.5 MEG or RAM, 24BIT graphics, a drive the reads and writes 1.5 >MEG disks, a detached keyboard, and 3 Zorro slots is not an impossible task. Nothing's impossible, especially if you control most of the variables. But if you're holding them all, you may find you have achieved that elusive impossible situation. Sure, something that what you want could be done. For under $1000, probably not. For example, that machine won't really work. A 24 bit display at 320x512 takes just under 512K for a single screen. On a one meg machine, that doesn't leave any preceptible room for the OS and a single small application happening at the same time. You would need at least 2-4 megs of memory for such a system to be very useful. That's $$$, even at today's reasonable memory prices. And what you're proposing is basically an A3000 with a couple of add-ons. Even if you integrate a new chip set that does the 24 bit graphics for you, you can't expect it to cost less than today's chip set. So, even if such a machine gets done some day, expect it to be on the A3000 price curve, not the A500 price curve. You won't see an A3000 type machine at under $1000 for some time to come. Perhaps never -- a good portion of that machine's costs isn't in the PCB. Slots add cost, for cooling, power supply, case work, all kind of things that don't drop as the price of electronics do. The main reason this new unexpandable "pizza box" configuration has become so popular in the Workstation market is that, when you eliminate the slots, you take lots of cost with you. >The market changes, and Commodore has always pushed value to the edge. And will hopefully continue to do so. But it takes a long, long, time for "impossible" to change to "impractical" and then to "here it is", especially when it's the cost you're after. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/22/90)
rang@cz2.ics.uci.edu (Roger Penaranda Jr. Ang) writes: >On a different note. Yesterday I saw the Consumers Buyer's Guide, the >one put out by the people of Consumer Report magazine. In the >computers section, for computers list priced at $3000 or more (I >think), they recommended the ... > Amiga 3000 >second place recommendation went to the Mac IIcx. Now, that's what I >call a respectable plug. Hmmm. The A3000 makes the cover of BYTE. The A3000 makes Consumer's Guide. The A500 is shown on the Today show. The Toaster/Amiga is shown all over. Omigod! The college critters were right! There _is_ a conspiracy!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Paul) (12/24/90)
I think that if C= is going to put out a new computer like the 500 but with a 68030, it should be a portable. Lets say a 030 (or 020) with a 50meg HD and 2 megs of real memory. The monitor is a big discussion here as far as price vs color and resoltion. I could see this machine for around $2000. Another big cost here is making the custom chip set CMOS. Ramblings end here. -- Amiga@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu .....Paul......