pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) (12/12/90)
Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, even for a hard drive. IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David M. Pochron | from Rescue Rangers, _A Fly in the Ointment_ pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu| Gadget to Dale: "Keep the hands off the body!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/12/90)
In <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >even for a hard drive. Well, that isn't exactly true. There are hard drives available that could hold the contents of at least 2 absolutely FULL CD-ROM. Not only that, but the hard drives can be set up so that they use the appropriate file system. Your point is well taken though. It just isn't going to be the same for the thieves. No more collecting copies of 300-400 programs, just to be able to say they have them. >IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry >doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... Borrowing never really hurts. Thing is, if you borrow a game, and play it, you will either like it enough to buy, or you will not. You might like it, but feel that it is too easy, or you might really hate it. If you don't buy, consider the reason. CD-ROM is as close to perfect copy protection as we have right now, and it means that the vendor can't whine about piracy being the reason sales are down. Perhaps one or two of them might even get the idea that the product is crap, or overpriced, or both. I have a feeling that a lot of the decrease in sales after the first release of a product is sometimes due as much to the word getting around about it, as it is to any other reason. -larry -- The only things to survive a nuclear war will be cockroaches and IBM PCs. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (12/12/90)
In article <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >even for a hard drive. > >IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry >doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... > And boy, will they be surprised when they notice how few games people will buy. Children that are used to having a plethora of poor games to discard will stop buying new ones as they notice that they spend maybe 2 hours on a game that will cost more than games do today. The games will, in the beginning at least, be larger, prettier and with as much playability as my left shoe. /Jorgen -- ******************************************************************************* email dvljhg@cs.umu.se - other ways to communicate are a waste of time. Everything I say is always true, just apply it to the right reality. "Credo, quia absurdum est."
jam@lonex.radc.af.mil (Joel A. Mussman) (12/12/90)
In article <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >even for a hard drive. Huh? Thats not exactly true, there are many large drives around. Plus, I can NFS off of my VAX, which has merely a few gigabytes available online. And if I need more, I can fill out the appropriate forms... Actually, I don't condone or participate pirating, I'm just expressing a technical viewpoint. >IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry Very easy. A reader will run you about $500.00, but then again it costs about the same for a CD-ROM drive. >doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... I suspect myself that most games will not take up the capacity of the CD-ROM, so I don't see how this will cause any changes in the attitudes and actions of many people. If I'm missing something, I certainly would like to be enlightened! Joel Mussman jam@lonex.radc.af.mil.
252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) (12/13/90)
In article <2401@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >In <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >>Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >>is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >>even for a hard drive. > >Well, that isn't exactly true. There are hard drives available that could hold >the contents of at least 2 absolutely FULL CD-ROM. Not only that, but the hard >drives can be set up so that they use the appropriate file system. > >Your point is well taken though. It just isn't going to be the same for the >thieves. No more collecting copies of 300-400 programs, just to be able to say >they have them. > >>IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry >>doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >>of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... > >Borrowing never really hurts. Thing is, if you borrow a game, and play it, you >will either like it enough to buy, or you will not. You might like it, but feel >that it is too easy, or you might really hate it. If you don't buy, consider >the reason. CD-ROM is as close to perfect copy protection as we have right now, >and it means that the vendor can't whine about piracy being the reason sales are >down. Perhaps one or two of them might even get the idea that the product is >crap, or overpriced, or both. I have a feeling that a lot of the decrease in >sales after the first release of a product is sometimes due as much to the word >getting around about it, as it is to any other reason. > >-larry > >-- >The only things to survive a nuclear war will be cockroaches and IBM PCs. >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| // Larry Phillips | >| \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | >| COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't be copied is if it's 100% full. I would just like to see a game with that much data! (Jeesh it'd have to be bigger then an encyclopedia britanica set). If the program isnt as big, then a simple algorithm could transfer the CD ROM game to HD. Some sort of copying device could be rigged up so that only the data on the CD ROM that is accessed will be copied. Mearly keeping track of the sector, etc. Heck, they even had those for the C64 (not for CD's of course). If a program is to successfully be copyrighted on a CD-ROM it will have to be encrypted, just like now-a-days. But since CD ROMS are relatively SLOW, it'll take longer to load. Im just trying to say that in the eyes of a European Hacker, nothing is impossible (especially when DAT's and Floptical's are so commonly available.) Phil Dietz <<<=================--------- Cheap Ad ---------===================<<< Phil Dietz SWL Lincoln 565 MEGS! 2 lines 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (402)421-1963 AMIGA, IBM, MAC, GIFS IBM'ers and Mac'ers are shopping for a life. Amiga the best!
sjorr@sunee.waterloo.edu (Stephen Orr) (12/13/90)
In article <2401@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >In <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >>Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >>is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >>even for a hard drive. > >Well, that isn't exactly true. There are hard drives available that could hold >the contents of at least 2 absolutely FULL CD-ROM. Not only that, but the hard >drives can be set up so that they use the appropriate file system. > While this is indeed true (I have a friend who owns enough HD space to do just that, the CDTV still gives you copy protection because: a) a 500+ Meg HD costs an awful lot more than a $30-$60 CD b) CDTV has in the anim decompressing hardware, the ability to mix amiga data with CD Audio (cool sound in those games) and a wide variety of other bits and pieces like bookmark memory, the luminous display, and the ability to mix Amiga audio (from midi if desired) with CD Audio. There are a number of other things that make pirating a virtual inpossibility unless you have something like a CTRAC emulator which can run entirley in an Amiga (as opposed to requiring a CDTV as well). I am developing for CDTV, and very little effort one can easily prevent CDTV software from running on anything but a CDTV. Stephen Orr SandIsoft
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/13/90)
In <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: > >Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't >be copied is if it's 100% full. Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GByte SCSI hard drive. -larry -- The only things to survive a nuclear war will be cockroaches and IBM PCs. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) (12/14/90)
pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >even for a hard drive. >IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry >doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... Haha I shouldn't have replied to this, cause I am sure about 5 other people will have the same "Type" of reply, but here goes. That is only 4 years away(1995) and that implies that we will all have CD ROM drives in 4 years. I have no plans to buy a device that only 2 or 3 games use and several programs (such as encyclopedias, fred fishisks,etc) use. And I am almost certain game manufacturers won't produce A LOT for this thing until enough applications such as the encyclopedia appear that many many people will already have one. My last arguement is, not to be overly fussy, but what game do you know of that takes up an entire cd rom? The largest game I currently know of (I am certain there are other large ones but don't flame) is Kings Quest V for IBM (do they have it for amiga?) which is like 10 megs. Maybe even dragons lair! But the point is, it takes 10X the amount of time to produce a 10 meg game than it does to produce a one 3 1/2 880k floppy game. This means more production on the part of the software dudes, and less income during that time of production. Ok, supposing they do put 880k floppies on a laserdisk, now they are not preventing piracy..880k could be easily transferred to floppy. My final point is, even if they put large 10 meg games on the cd, they will will still fit on a hard drive. There just AREN'T many 3.2 gigabyte games available for amiga! To agree with you though, I suppose some new games could be produced which used LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of digitized music and Images. I'm sure though that pirates would eliminate the music playing code, and transfer what images they could to floppy for hard drive installation. MUSIC would take up the most space. Byron Guernsey "Happiness is eating only the well seasoned doritos"
davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) (12/14/90)
>>>>> On 11 Dec 90 21:02:32 GMT, lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) said:
Larry> CD-ROM is as close to perfect copy protection as we have right now, and
Larry> it means that the vendor can't whine about piracy being the reason
Larry> sales are down.
Can we really expect that most software vendors will be putting out CD-ROM
software that uses such a large amount of space as is available on a CD-ROM?
Point being that if it doesn't require a hard drive of significant size to
make a copy of CD-ROM software, what protects the software any more than
putting it on a floppy with no write-protect notch?
--
====================================================================
David Masterson Consilium, Inc.
(415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct.
uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043
====================================================================
"If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!"ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (12/14/90)
In <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: >Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't >be copied is if it's 100% full. In article <2406@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GByte >SCSI hard drive. Feel free. You get to copy one or two CD-ROMs, for a media cost in the neighborhood of $3500. This doesn't sound like piracy to me... -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
hclausen@adspdk.UUCP (Henrik Clausen) (12/14/90)
In article <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, Phil Dietz writes: > In article <2401@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: > >In <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: > >>Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology > >>is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, > >>even for a hard drive. > If a program is to successfully be copyrighted on a CD-ROM it will have > to be encrypted, just like now-a-days. That's too easy to break. Just never compress anything, and the sheer price and hassle of getting it down to a hundred or more floppies will bog the pirates. HST modems won't be of any help, and even the price of enough floppies to hold a CD-ROM will approach that of the original! Not to mention the amount of disk swapping it takes to play it. > Im just trying to say that in the eyes of a European Hacker, nothing is > impossible (especially when DAT's and Floptical's are so commonly > available.) Well, but it will take a significant amount of HW investement to be a pirate. You don't start off by getting a machine and an extra floppy drive. A nice _big_ Quantum could take *ONE* CD-ROM, if it ain't too full. DAT drives or Flopticals aren't standard equipment yet, either. The DAT might hold a CD-ROM, but you can't use it directly off the tape. The Floptical doesn't hold enough to emulate the CD format. While it's not a major theoretical obstacle in copying a CD ROM, the practical consequences will be nil currently, except if the pirates get as far as mastering their own disks.. :-] I've pursuaded my boss into getting the Xetec drive, so I'm waiting eagerly. -Henrik ______________________________________________________________________________ | Henrik Clausen, Graffiti Data | If the Doors of Perception where cleansed, | | ...{pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax! | Man would see Reality as it is - Infinite. | \______cbmehq!adspdk!hclausen___|_________________________________W. Blake___/
manes@vger.nsu.edu (12/14/90)
In article <CIMSHOP!DAVIDM.90Dec13101409@uunet.UU.NET>, cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: >>>>>> On 11 Dec 90 21:02:32 GMT, lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) said: > > Larry> CD-ROM is as close to perfect copy protection as we have right now, and > Larry> it means that the vendor can't whine about piracy being the reason > Larry> sales are down. > > Can we really expect that most software vendors will be putting out CD-ROM > software that uses such a large amount of space as is available on a CD-ROM? > Point being that if it doesn't require a hard drive of significant size to > make a copy of CD-ROM software, what protects the software any more than > putting it on a floppy with no write-protect notch? Ah, how quickly we all forget! One of the most popular copy protection schemes in the past has been to place errors on the media and then having the software looking for this error. Since CDs are not writable, it would (at least in my opinion) be difficult to reproduce the disk. It probably is not a big deal for the software manufacturer to produce a piece of software that knows whether the original was in the drive. what ya'll think? > -- > ==================================================================== > David Masterson Consilium, Inc. > (415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct. > uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043 > ==================================================================== > "If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!" -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (12/15/90)
In article <4751@disk.UUCP> specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: > >My last arguement is, not to be overly fussy, but what game do you know of >that takes up an entire cd rom? The largest game I currently know of (I >am certain there are other large ones but don't flame) is Kings Quest V >for IBM (do they have it for amiga?) which is like 10 megs. Maybe >even dragons lair! Well, experts tell me that the price of the CD media goes rapidly down, so who will care when one CD is not completely full? The result is, the price depends on the software developing costs (plus marketing), but not on the distribution media. So this is no big argument. And on the other side, it is VERY easy to get some megabytes filled with only several nice HAM or other hires pictures, where you have today C64 like graphics instead. I think, they could make better graphics for many of these games already today, they just aren't able to cram it onto one distribution disk. >To agree with you though, I suppose some new games could be produced which >used LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of digitized music and Images. I'm sure though >that pirates would eliminate the music playing code, and transfer what >images they could to floppy for hard drive installation. MUSIC would >take up the most space. Oh, sorry, you said the same as I, at least for some parts :-). -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/15/90)
In <24013@grebyn.com>, ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >In <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: >>Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't >>be copied is if it's 100% full. > >In article <2406@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >>Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GByte >>SCSI hard drive. > >Feel free. You get to copy one or two CD-ROMs, for a media cost in the >neighborhood of $3500. This doesn't sound like piracy to me... Well, that was the entire point in the posting in which I spoke of CD-ROMs being the closest thing to theft protection that we curently have. Read the sentence I am replying to. It states that you cannot copy a full CD-ROM to a hard drive. My refutation of that statement makes no mention of piracy. -larry -- The best way to accelerate an MsDos machine is at 32 ft/sec/sec. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
stephen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Stephen Holmstead) (12/15/90)
In <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: >Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't >be copied is if it's 100% full. In article <2406@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GByte >SCSI hard drive. To which grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) responds: >Feel free. You get to copy one or two CD-ROMs, for a media cost in the >neighborhood of $3500. This doesn't sound like piracy to me... No problem. I have a 660 Mb SCSI floptical (removable) drive. That media only costs about $80-$100 per cartridge. ____ ____ | / /_ __\ | Disk 0S/2 == 1/2 OS (Leo Schwab) Stephen Holmstead | | / / /_/ | | Mechanisms // ...!hplabs!hpdmlge!stephen |___\ / /___| Division \X/ Amiga stephen@hpdmlge.boi.hp.com
pochron@cat56.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) (12/15/90)
In article <CIMSHOP!DAVIDM.90Dec13101409@uunet.UU.NET> cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: >X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.12 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ] > >Can we really expect that most software vendors will be putting out CD-ROM >software that uses such a large amount of space as is available on a CD-ROM? Is it VERY EASY to fill up a CD ROM...If you put a full-blown digital soundtrack in the game, most of the CD will get used up. What about animation? It may be that the frames for the game are loaded on the fly (sort of) and there may be thousands of them...digitized, of course. You could even fill the remainder of the disk with codewords that the program will need or look for, but a pirate might hack the program executable to ignore this. Bypassing the animation or soundtrack in a game would be pretty much impossible, and would defeat the purpose of the game. Psychologically speaking, a pirate is going to want EVERYTHING in the game to work. If the soundtrack is missing, they might as well buy the game. Of course, I'm not a pirate, so I could be wrong here. It just seems that it would be so from looking at their psych. profile. Also, how many pirates with their Amiga 500's are going to spend $$$ for a mega-mega harddrive? Again, it is beyond their fiscal abilities. >David Masterson Consilium, Inc. >(415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct. >uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David M. Pochron | from Rescue Rangers, _A Fly in the Ointment_ pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu| Gadget to Dale: "Keep the hands off the body!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (12/15/90)
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) writes:
< And I am almost certain game manufacturers won't produce A LOT for
< this thing until enough applications such as the encyclopedia appear that
< many many people will already have one.
I wouldn't bet my life savings on that if I were you.
< My last arguement is, not to be overly fussy, but what game do you know of
< that takes up an entire cd rom? The largest game I currently know of (I
< am certain there are other large ones but don't flame) is Kings Quest V
< for IBM (do they have it for amiga?) which is like 10 megs. Maybe
< even dragons lair! But the point is, it takes 10X the amount of time to
< produce a 10 meg game than it does to produce a one 3 1/2 880k floppy
< game. This means more production on the part of the software dudes, and
< less income during that time of production.
You assume that all the graphics will be 'hand-drawn' graphics. What is
to stop a developer from digitizing live action sequences, or producing
spectacular ray-traced animations. Admittedly, these may still require
some touch-up, but you could easily (and relatively inexpensively) fill
200-300 Megabytes of CD-ROM space. And this doesn't even mention sound,
which can take up LARGE amounts of disk space.
< Ok, supposing they do put 880k floppies on a laserdisk, now they are not
< preventing piracy..880k could be easily transferred to floppy.
Suppose that a developer places specific block number references in their
software. Blocks which could not exist on an 880K floppy. They could
then scatter their files all over the CD-ROM, or not even use a file
structure at all, but just randomly selected absolute sectors. There
are many ways to prevent even a (relatively) small game from being
pirated from a CD-ROM.
Regards,
Chris
--
Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ___-/^\-___
cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | //__--\O/--__\\ nI' yIyIn 'ej yIchep.
...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | // \\
The Home of the Killer Smiley | `\ /'re0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ronald William Ely) (12/15/90)
Gee, what a great idea. All software producers have to do to keep
from losing their market to piracy is to lose their market by distributing
their product on a medium that a large number of individuals don't have
access to. Of course you are assuming that this is in the future when
everyone has a CD ROM drive. But then again, how do you know that 250
meg readable/writeable optical drives like on the NeXT cubes won't become
popular, giving pirates a suitable medium for copying CD ROMS onto...
Really, using a new medium will in no way prevent piracy. There are
just too many people with nothing better to do than sit around and try to
get around all the producers' protection schemes.
**********************************************************************
* Ronald W Ely: re0t+@andrew.cmu.edu *
* ronb0+@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Screen flicker isn't a bug--it's a feature" *
* "Scheme is just an adventure game, and if you win, you get to *
* program in C" *
*-------May Spirit of the Radio be with you. 8-D ;) :-> *
**********************************************************************hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) (12/15/90)
How about a small program on CD using SCSI CMD's?? Tell it to seek to block
xxx on the CDROM. Now if xxx lies in the 500M range it would make it difficult
to copy since the HD might not go that high or if it did the data might not be
there due to disk fragmentation.
Or if you KNEW the game was going to be on CDTV one could interleave the
AUDIO data with a portion of the regular data. Or one could query the
BLOCK_SIZE which on CDTV is in the 2K or greater range.
Now if a hacker could defeat a combo of these:
1) He could make a better living as a programmer.
2) He is EXTREMELY bored :-)
--
adam hill
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA!
Amiga... Multimedia NOW
Most Common Phrase at DevCon '90 - "Shhhhhhh.." joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (12/16/90)
stephen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Stephen Holmstead) writes: > In <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Diet > >Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't > >be copied is if it's 100% full. > > In article <2406@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phil > >Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GBy > >SCSI hard drive. > > To which grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) responds: > >Feel free. You get to copy one or two CD-ROMs, for a media cost in the > >neighborhood of $3500. This doesn't sound like piracy to me... > > No problem. I have a 660 Mb SCSI floptical (removable) drive. That media > only costs about $80-$100 per cartridge. Yeah, but you can get the CD-ROMS for ~$50-70, and it doesn't seem worth it. > > ____ ____ > | / /_ __\ | Disk 0S/2 == 1/2 OS (Leo Schwab) Stephen Holmstea > | | / / /_/ | | Mechanisms // ...!hplabs!hpdmlge!stephe > |___\ / /___| Division \X/ Amiga stephen@hpdmlge.boi.hp.co -jph joseph@valnet.UUCP or ...!iuvax!valnet!joseph IMHO: The "H" means "honest"!
lordbah@bisco.kodak.COM (Lord Bah) (12/17/90)
A CD writing unit for the home computer market is in the near future.
Cost in the neighborhood of optical drives. Point being that one
doesn't need a huge hard drive -- just read from one CD and copy onto
another. I don't foresee CD technology having any effect on the amount
of piracy which takes place or the inclination of publishers towards
copy protection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Van Epps amusing!lordbah@bisco.kodak.com
lordbah@cup.portal.com
sun!portal!cup.portal.com!lordbahifarqhar@sunc.mqcc.mq.oz.au (Ian Farquhar) (12/17/90)
In article <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >even for a hard drive. I have been told (I haven't seen it myself), that the Mac CD game "Virtual Vallery" has been pirated. This is because the game is really only about 30M or so long, and the vast majority of the disk is empty. I am sure that this will be the case with most CD-ROM games for a while to come. You should also remember that R/W and Worm technology may make it possible to pirate CD games extremely easily. >IC ROMs can, and have been, pirated. I suspect by 1995 (if the game industry >doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... Well, if someone has the manufacturing skills to pirate carts on a medium scale, pirating CD's from Taiwan is even easier. All you need is a bent CD manufacturer, or one who is not too fussy about the contracts her/she/it takes on. These are not uncommon, and don't make the assumption that just because Taiwan has signed the Berne convention that the Taiwanese authorities are actively chasing Taiwanese cloners (chasing people who clone Taiwanese technology is another matter though...) -- Ian Farquhar Phone : 61 2 805-9404 Office of Computing Services Fax : 61 2 805-7433 Macquarie University NSW 2109 Also : 61 2 805-7205 Australia EMail : ifarqhar@suna.mqcc.mq.oz.au
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (12/17/90)
I don't find it hard to pirate CD-ROM. I've got this old TTY33 with a paper tape punch hooked to my SER:. I get tape really cheap from Turing Supply. lee 8-)
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) (12/18/90)
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) writes: >specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: >< And I am almost certain game manufacturers won't produce A LOT for >< this thing until enough applications such as the encyclopedia appear that >< many many people will already have one. >I wouldn't bet my life savings on that if I were you. Would you really want to be the first to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on production of a program on CD when the current CD user base is relatively low. What about compatibility? Aren't there about 3 or 4 different types of CD drives? I'm sure production of games on the CD's would help boost the user base, but its just not convenient *RIGHT NOW* for companies to produce these things. Your talking about a "GAME" that would costs ALOT of money in developement. You would have to pay animators, digitizers, musicians, programmers (by the ton- it would take a huge number for any realistic total CD project), ANd if that isn't ENOUGH- If you are a company like PSYGNOSIS, *IT WON'T EVEN WORK FOR THE FIRST SEVERAL RELEASES* :} This "GAME" has just went up from 50$ for the DISK to about 200$ because they don't have enough people to buy it and TOO many people to pay. This is REALISTIC thinking. You have to consider the COST. Without CD it is expensive to pay programmers to make something- and in fact they limit their numbers to save on expenses. Please don't flame right away till you consider my point. Am I not at least partially right? You can make the general assumptions.. 1) The user base is low 2) The low use base was force the price up higher than the media cost and "normal" game cost 3) a gigabyte game is more expensive than a floppy 4) People WANT good software and LOW prices 5) Either the company hires animators, musicians, etc or they get a crappy game with digital animation from the programmers bathroom. :) 6) The cost of the extra programmers would bring the price of the software up 7) And finally, software is ALREADY too high due to piracy. These CD games would start out at say 30$ for the media (thats the price of many games today WITH their piracy LOSS added on) then with all other factors you get this mega expensive game. Lets say 90$ + the cost of a CD drive which is compatible (What is the price now? 700$) I'm sorry, but anyone who spends 700$ on a drive to JUST play games and 90$ on a game had better see a psychiatrist. Most people now don't have the CD drives and have no need other than to play games if they were produced. I thought I had spent enough on a computer, and now they want to make it even more expensive. sigh. I'm sure sometime, possibly by 2000 CD drives will be used enough to where it might be profitable for the developers to do all their stuff on CD. Maybe a developer might even make a game now, but 1 game isn't worth the price of a cd drive. These all are factors are they not? MONEY is what it is all about not "How good a game would be on cd" or "How hard it would be to copy a CD". Byron Guernsey
soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) (12/19/90)
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >In <1990Dec12.165845.23087@hoss.unl.edu>, 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: >> >>Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't >>be copied is if it's 100% full. >Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GByte >SCSI hard drive. I can just imagine this conversation between two pirates in the future: Pirate1: Hey Joe, I've just downloaded this great 600 meg game from the Pirate's Warehouse. Pirate2: Wow! How long did it take you? P1: Only five minutes over that new B-ISDN 2 megabit line I stole from Toxico Electronic Armaments. It's got digitised sound and animated blood splatters. P2: Can I get a copy? P1: Sure. Swap with your new 600 meg hard disk? P2: Err .... Frivolously yours, :-> ------------- Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403 Telecom Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 249, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (12/19/90)
stephen@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Stephen Holmstead) writes: < 252u3130@fergvax.unl.edu (Phil Dietz) writes: < >Yeah, but they'll find a way. The only real way a CD ROM game couldn't < >be copied is if it's 100% full. < < lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: < >Huh? Why not? All it takes is a standard 669 meg drive (or part of a 1.2 GByte < >SCSI hard drive. < < To which grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) responds: < >Feel free. You get to copy one or two CD-ROMs, for a media cost in the < >neighborhood of $3500. This doesn't sound like piracy to me... < < No problem. I have a 660 Mb SCSI floptical (removable) drive. That media < only costs about $80-$100 per cartridge. But you will also need to have a CD-ROM drive. So, for the cost of the CD-ROM drive, plus the cost of the 'floptical' drive, AND the cost of the floptical media, you can (most likely) pirate CD-ROM games. The only problem here is that you will end up spending more, on average, for the pirated copy than you would to just go buy the game in the first place (using the price range of $30-100 stated in a recent article about the CDTV as a reference). Regards, Chris -- Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ___-/^\-___ cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | //__--\O/--__\\ nI' yIyIn 'ej yIchep. ..!uunet!sequent!cseaman | // \\ The Home of the Killer Smiley | `\ /'
martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) (12/19/90)
In article <1990Dec12.143219.4861@lonex.radc.af.mil> jam@lonex.radc.af.mil (Joel A. Mussman) writes: >In article <1990Dec11.205920.12986@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >>Perhaps one of the reasons game developers are so hot on CD-ROM technology >>is it is impossible to pirate a CD-ROM - too much inforation stored there, >>even for a hard drive. >>... >>doesn't go bust again) every game on the market will use a CD-ROM - 0% loss >>of sales to piracy. Only "borrowing" can hurt sales then... > > I suspect myself that most games will not take up the capacity of > the CD-ROM, so I don't see how this will cause any changes in the > attitudes and actions of many people. If I'm missing something, I > certainly would like to be enlightened! >Joel Mussman >jam@lonex.radc.af.mil. Three comments. - As a software (and soon to be game) developer, I see a good future for CD-ROM based software. - It will not stop piracy. Maybe complicate it for a while. DAT or other mass RAM storage will replace the floppy. - Be assure that all the space will be occupied. Ask any Sysop, when you put 1.2 gigs online (networks), it takes usually less than a week to be filled at 80%. I see three primary space filler for games: - Nice (nobreakable 10 minutes :-) ) intros, and at last a real sound track. Belive me game producers will soon find 600 meg quite limited. (and I do not count the redundancy factor here). - Game pack, where you sell more than one game at the same time. - Advertisement. Game-Clips (previews). Daniel. -- // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ // MediaLab, ca vous regarde! C.P. 6128, Succursale A, \\ \\// Mail: martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA Montreal (Quebec), CANADA, \\// \/ Tel.: (514) 343-6111 poste 3494 H3C 3J7 \/
aa377@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ken Kopin) (12/23/90)
Ok, here is (IMHO) the final word on pirating CD's...
Take five minutes of audio track and fill it with spoken words..
The user must type in the word to start the game. No CD-ROM,
No playing.. Simple. Anyone seeing a flaw in this argument
speak up.
Ken Kopin
---
This is a fake Trailer.. I just typed this now,
no, really... I did.
AA377@cleveland.freenet.eduetxtomp@eos.ericsson.se (Tommy Petersson) (12/23/90)
In article <9012230815.AA07279@cwns2.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa377@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes:
-
-
- Ok, here is (IMHO) the final word on pirating CD's...
-
-Take five minutes of audio track and fill it with spoken words..
-The user must type in the word to start the game. No CD-ROM,
-No playing.. Simple. Anyone seeing a flaw in this argument
-speak up.
-
Move the game (without audio) elsewhere, then remove then code that
requires the typing and replaces it with a permanent OK. The same
way as dongle/password/manual lookup is circumvented...
Tommy Peterssonxanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (12/23/90)
aa377@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes: > Ok, here is (IMHO) the final word on pirating CD's... Not hardly! ;-) >Take five minutes of audio track and fill it with spoken words.. >The user must type in the word to start the game. No CD-ROM, >No playing.. Simple. Anyone seeing a flaw in this argument >speak up. Five minutes is about 2000 words or 3 1/3 pages. I type it out, I photocopy the cheat for about a dime and give you a copy along with the copy of the real game info. Next person who wants to claim copy protection is possible, at all, any medium? I contend the best you can do is copy dissuasion, and that not for long. It just isn't worth the irritation to your users. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz (12/24/90)
In article <9012230815.AA07279@cwns2.INS.CWRU.Edu>, aa377@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ken Kopin) writes: > Ok, here is (IMHO) the final word on pirating CD's... > > Take five minutes of audio track and fill it with spoken words.. > The user must type in the word to start the game. No CD-ROM, > No playing.. Simple. Anyone seeing a flaw in this argument > speak up. > > Ken Kopin > --- > This is a fake Trailer.. I just typed this now, > no, really... I did. > AA377@cleveland.freenet.edu If it was an American speaking, noone could understand what he said except Americans, and they couldn't spell it right. Regards Alan (IT'S A ****JOKE**** !!!!!!!)