iwscoop@bigsur.uucp (Serge Ah-Hee) (08/28/90)
Called Impulse... Imagine is supposed to be released in two weeks. Upgrades are available. Send 150$ if you're registered. If not, send the original disk of TSilver with 150$.
a45@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) (10/11/90)
Yes, Imagine is out, received a copy on Tuesday. This is a pre-release v0.9
copy. Version 1.0 should be out in a couple of weeks. Some features in the
current version aren't completed yet. Yes, it does have animation capabilities
(lot's of control). Up to 24 bit color, up to 8000x8000 pixels, aspect control,
with these following rendering methods:
b/w wire
b/w shade
color wire
color shade
scanline
trace
Allowing: ham, hi-res, lace for Amiga view-modes.
Formats: rgbn-12bit
ilbm-12bit
rgb8-24bit
ilbm-24bit
seperate rgb / 8bits/file
I believe the selling price is about $500. If you are a registered user of
Turbo-Silver, then the upgrade is only $150.
Program size for v0.9 is 413552 bytes (Floating Point version).
Here are some of the features coming for v1.0:
Auto Dither - render 24bit then view in HAM
Boolean math - punch/drill holes in any object
IFF face fill - import any iff onto object
ANIM format - incorporate Sparta standard
Elevation mapping - new feature
Star field - new feature
Auto retrack - better camera tracking
Grounds/perfect spheres - built-in
--
Too much light and we are blinded; too much darkness and we are lost.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ken Cooper KenCoopera45@mindlink.UUCP COMPUSERVE: 73627,2334 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+a763@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (10/11/90)
Yes, Imagine is out! Yes, it does have animation capabilities. I have yet to explore it thoroughly, so I'm not sure how refined the animation stuff is, but it looks to me like it is HOT! It does not allow for 18 bit pics. The options are 12 bit or 24 bit. The upgrade from Turbo Silver is $150 US, but I'm not sure of the list price. Let us know what you think of HAM-E, BTW. * Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ ..... * CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=| * USENET: l | | |\ / \ /\ _\ * a763@mindlink.UUCP May the frames be with you... \
axjjb@acad2.anc.alaska.edu (BRYANT JOHN J) (10/12/90)
Does anyone know anything about Imagine??? Does it have animation capabilites? Is it out yet? Will it allow for 18 bit pics. 24 bit pics?.. What is the suggested retail price??? I am planning to use this with my HAM-E (when I get the HAM-E) Thanks.. John J Bryant Student Computer User Consultant University of Alaska Anchorage and Sole Proprietor of 'Bryant Consulting' Disclaimer: I said what?
a45@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) (10/12/90)
As far as I can tell, there is 'no' charge for going from v0.9 to v1.0 and if
you wait long enough, v0.9 will soon be history :)
--
Too much light and we are blinded; too much darkness and we are lost.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ken Cooper KenCoopera45@mindlink.UUCP COMPUSERVE: 73627,2334 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+bill@casemo.UUCP (Bill Jensen) (10/12/90)
In article <1990Oct11.202139.13103@hayes.ims.alaska.edu>, axjjb@acad2.anc.alaska.edu (BRYANT JOHN J) writes: > Does anyone know anything about Imagine??? A demo of the just released version 0.9 was given at our user group meeting last night. > Does it have animation capabilites? Sure does! It has 4 main parts, a detail editor for objects, a form editor which is another way of doing objects, a stage editor for arranging everything and an editor for the animation timeline. > Is it out yet? Will it allow for 18 bit pics. 24 bit pics?.. 24 bit will be there, but not in the current release 0.9. I have no idea when 1.0 will be out. > > What is the suggested retail price??? I think it will be $350, but Turbo Silver users may upgrade for $150. > Thanks.. > > John J Bryant Bill Jensen, Systems Engineer CASE / Datatel Inc. (301)-317-7553 9020 Junction Drive mimsy!casemo!bill Annapolis Junction, MD 20701
jer@stbimbo.UUCP (John Ramspott) (10/12/90)
In article <1990Oct11.202139.13103@hayes.ims.alaska.edu> axjjb@acad2.anc.alaska.edu writes: >Does anyone know anything about Imagine??? Does it have animation capabilites? Yes, Imagine does have animation capabilities. Much improved over Turbo silver. You can even specify that your light source change over time, such as having brightness decrease for a sunset, and have Imagine generate in-betweens. Lots of capability here. >Is it out yet? Will it allow for 18 bit pics. 24 bit pics?.. Yes, Impulse is now shipping what I believe is .9 (not quite 1.0). A friend of mine who ordered it in July got it a week ago. I ordered mine over a month ago and still haven't seen it. They have quite a bit of backorders to fill. So you can order it now, but it may be awhile before they get too you. Yes, it has support for 24-bit pics, I don't know about 18. It is supposed to support both 24-bit Turbo Silver format pictures as well as the 24-bit ILBM standard, but their ILBM code has some problems. Ray-tracing to an ILBM screen always gets you a black screen, but scan-line mode works fine. Ray-tracing to TS format (12 or 24 bit) works fine. >What is the suggested retail price??? about $350. If you are a registered owner of Turbo Silver, you can get it for $150 for the next month or so. >I am planning to use this with my HAM-E (when I get the HAM-E) So am I. I recommend you purchase ASDG's Art Department too. > >John J Bryant --John E. Ramspott Disclaimer: I do not work for Impulse in any way. I am just a customer, who is busily watching his mailbox and envying his friends who already have Imagine. Someone needs to turbo charge their shipping department!!!
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (10/12/90)
In article <1990Oct11.202139.13103@hayes.ims.alaska.edu> axjjb@acad2.anc.alaska.edu writes: >Does anyone know anything about Imagine??? Does it have animation capabilites? >Is it out yet? Will it allow for 18 bit pics. 24 bit pics?.. > Yes it animates. Yes it's out. Saves may be in Impulse's RGBN format, 12 or 24 bit, or ILBM format 12 or 24 bit, or Separate R/G//B files. Renderings to the screen may be in any Amiga format (32, HAM, High, Lace on/off, etc.) and in any screen size you'd care to set so you can make a real tiny picture which renders quickly for a preview and then reset the picture size to full screen or larger for the final rendering. Scanline mode and full Trace are in there. Wireframe and Polygon modes coming shortly. Two disks are supplied: one contains the 68000 version and the other the floating point version for people with 2620 or 2630 boards or equivalents. >What is the suggested retail price??? $350 if bought outright, or $150 if bought as an upgrade to Turbo Silver. Contact Impulse in Minneapolis for more info. I got mine at AmiExpo, Anaheim - Impulse had a booth and a limited supply of the product with them. The box contained the Reference manual but was minus the User manual which wasn't quite finished yet. Also a two-sided sheet enclosed indicated the software wasn't totally finished and listed 13 features that will be plugged in and working in short order and all owners will get an update quickly. Harv Laser {anywhere}!crash!hrlaser "Park and lock it. Not responsible." People/Link: CBM*HARV
new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) (10/13/90)
In article <3501@mindlink.UUCP> a45@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) writes: >Yes, Imagine is out, received a copy on Tuesday. This is a pre-release v0.9 >copy. Version 1.0 should be out in a couple of weeks. Will people upgrading from Turbo have to pay for the upgrade from v0.9 to v1.0? -- Darren -- --- Darren New --- Grad Student --- CIS --- Univ. of Delaware --- ----- Network Protocols, Graphics, Programming Languages, Formal Description Techniques (esp. Estelle), Coffee -----
paleo@uncecs.edu (Constantine A. LaPasha) (10/14/90)
OK. You folks that HAVE imagine -- does it have support for doing paired renderings for x-specs +- automagically a-la silver-SV, or do I need to get silver-SV as well (I have T.S.) Also, can objects be moved back and forth between Silver and Imagine? Thanks. (now, if only we could render politicians speachless...) -- =============================================== Kostya LaPasha paleo@ecsvax.uncecs.edu ==== ... virtually, we can do anything ... ====
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct13.211837.3018@uncecs.edu> paleo@uncecs.edu (Constantine A. LaPasha) writes: > >OK. You folks that HAVE imagine -- does it have support for >doing paired renderings for x-specs +- automagically a-la >silver-SV, or do I need to get silver-SV as well (I have T.S.) No. Impulse took x-specs support out of Imagine. You'll need Turbo Silver SV if you want to make x-specs stereo 3D pictures. You could kludge it via Imagine, though, by rendering a picture, moving the camera slightly (with the same target) and rendering another view and then merging the two into a single stereo picture with the M3D program that comes on the X-Specs software disk. Certainly not as easy as doing it in one pass with TS-SV though. > >Also, can objects be moved back and forth between Silver and >Imagine? > Silver objects will import into Imagine. However it's a one-way street. Imagine objects will not load into Silver. Imagine's object file format contains some bits that Silver won't understand (due to new features in Imagine which weren't in Silver.. such as mapping multiple textures to the same object, etc.) However, you can upgrade your Silver to Silver SV and then also upgrade to Imagine but still get to keep SV, the way Mike @ Impulse explained it, they're two separate products and you don't have to give up SV when you "upgrade" it to Imagine. Call Impulse for the straight poop. Harv Laser {anywhere}!crash!hrlaser "Park and lock it. Not responsible." People/Link: CBM*HARV
walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) (11/14/90)
Imagine Users, If you use Imagine and have discovered problems with it but have not had the chance or the energy to send a report to Impulse, here is your chance: I've spoken (well, typed :) to a number of people with regard to Imagine and problems that the pre-release version still has. I have thus been able to put together a list of both bug reports and observations where the program could be improved. I plan to mail this info to Impulse very soon. EMail me your info and I will package it along with all of the information I have already received through conversations with people (all with due credit, of course). I plan to send this out on November the 20th, so try to be swift as well as accurate. WHY? I feel that it is in EVERYONE's interest to get the bugs out of Imagine and my conversations with other users have given me what may be a unique insight into some of the problems and dependencies, as well as allowed me to collect a fair abundance of suggestions. DISCLAIMER: I am not associated with Impulse except that I am a fairly satisfied customer. I am doing this as a service to the Amiga community, Impulse, and ultimately myself, too, of course. DIRECTIONS: try to make the subject of your message "Imagine mailing" and email to: walrus@cscwam.umd.edu (walrus@wam.umd.edu should also work, thus you could "R"eply through email to this post). Be brief and as accurate as possible. ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in ( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water."
walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) (11/27/90)
Imagine Users,
In an effort to help Impulse bring a bug-free version of Imagine 1.0
to market, which ultimately benefits us, the users, I have recently
taken it upon myself to ask the Usenet Amiga community to report bugs
and observations to me so that I may bundle this in one package to
mail to Impulse.
I have received very few responses (effectively only 3) which makes me
sad, but considering the upside of this: maybe the number of problems
is really very limited and we now have them all :-)
[Robert Wallace: I got your mail but my reply is getting stuck at
uunet for some reason.]
This is the LHARCED, UUENCODED package that I am mailing to Impulse
(they're getting an unpacked version ;-) of course, via snail mail!)
._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in
( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.edu a canoe? -- Both are f***ing close to water!"
(UUENCODED file follows -- press "n" to skip)
Instructions for decoding this file are stored at the end. Just save
it for now.
The letter is 14,637 bytes long, the uuencoded .lzh file is 9,760
which represents a 1/3rd savings for transmission. If someone thinks
this is taking bandwidth savings too far, kindly inform me via email.
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end
size 6934
Instructions for decoding this file:
1. Save this entire posting to a file (say "foo")
2. Run the CLI or Unix command
uudecode foo
This creates a file named "Imagine.letter.lzh"
Note: it is NOT necessary to edit the saved file
before running it through uudecode!
4. Run the CLI or Unix command
lharc x Imagine.letter.lzh
This creates a file named "Imagine.letter" which
you may read. You must specify the .lzh
extension because there is a "." already in the
name.
._. Udo Schuermann
( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.eduR_Michael_Medwid@cup.portal.com (11/29/90)
The main problem I've found with imagine comes with trying to render a scene in full trace multiple times. For example, if I create a car and set the lamps and cameras etc. and then go out to the project menu..if I am in full trace mode the first time out I am ok. But if I go back to the stage area and say change a lamp or camera position..when I go back to render again from the project menu I get a screen full of black. This problem does not occur when I use scan line mode. The other thing I don't like is not being able to adjust the zoom factor in the preview window in the Cycle Editor. Well actually you can if you zoom out in the three views but then your object is more difficult to work with. The preview window should have variable zoom. I don't like Impulse's opinion that Imagine is so easy to work with that it hardly needs a manual. It does have many very easy to use features but the program also has a lot of depth, it really is hot. But that means it deserve s an equally excellent set of documentation. Sculpt Animate 4D is a fine example of excellent documentation (tho the images created by sculpt pale next to silver or imagine in my opinion). One thing that could be explained better is proportioning objects relative to the diamond shaped primatives in the cycle editor. I've experimented with this quite a bit and I'm still not entirely clear on that relationship. The movie editor is not funtioning yet.
walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) (11/30/90)
I hold in my hands Imagine v1.0 which arrived yesterday.
The Tutorial Manual is 75 pages, bound the same as the Reference
manual that came with v0.9, but it has 17 tutorials in it, with a lot
of pictures to help you along. There are some ideas in there that I
haven't thought of myself. Basically, the manual describes the usage
of various features, at hand of examples (some of them get fairly
involved). A tiny-printed 12 page errata sheet gives a lot of nice
information on the textures and the special f/x.
Textures: checks, bricks, grid, wood (used also for marble),
disturbed, angular, linear, radial, and dots.
F/X: explode, ripple, grow.
You know what I'll be doing this weekend :-)
._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in
( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water."amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (11/30/90)
Glad to hear it actually came out so quickly. I was honestly figuring on another couple of months..when a developer says a month you add on a factor of at least three! I haven't been home yet today but now I'm anxious to get there. The FIRST thing I have to try out is the 3D texture mapping, ie bump mapping. Second are the fX. I'm glad that Impulse put out v0.9 otherwise I'd be trying to figure out how to open a project or subprojct tonight (or whenever 1.0 arrives) rather than getting down to the heart of the matter. Impulse received a lot of flack for v0.9 they deserve more credit.
srp@modcomp.uucp (Steve Pietrowicz) (11/30/90)
In <1990Nov26.191011.1021@wam.umd.edu> walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) writes:
]In an effort to help Impulse bring a bug-free version of Imagine 1.0
]to market, which ultimately benefits us, the users, I have recently
]taken it upon myself to ask the Usenet Amiga community to report bugs
]and observations to me so that I may bundle this in one package to
]mail to Impulse.
You're probably too late for 1.0....It's already been released.
--
--------------
SR Pietrowicz UUCP: ...!uunet!modcomp!srp CIS: 73047,2313RIDOUT@ddnvx1.afwl.af.mil (12/03/90)
In article <1990Nov29.215721.12329@wam.umd.edu>, walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) writes: > I hold in my hands Imagine v1.0 which arrived yesterday. <Stuff deleted> > > > Textures: checks, bricks, grid, wood (used also for marble), > disturbed, angular, linear, radial, and dots. > > F/X: explode, ripple, grow. > > You know what I'll be doing this weekend :-) > > ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in > ( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water." I got mine last week and spent the weekend playing. I got through most of the tutorials. Some advice is to read the errata sheet and make the notes in the tutorials. Otherwise you will be lost. I am trying to use the wood texture to simulate marble, If anyone can findout the settings I would like to hear about it. lastly, every time I show the final traced picture I cannot close the screen short of rebooting. I am assuming it is because of my low memory. I am booting with a very minimal system so I can run. I am not loading workbench. I have a one meg 2000. Before someone tells me that I shouldn't try until I have more memory, I want to learn this while I wait for my memory. -- **************************************************************************** * Brian Ridout Internet: ridout@ddnvx1.afwl.af.mil * * wl/scev * * Kirtland AFB NM 87117 My Apple is better than your Orange. * ****************************************************************************
walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) (12/04/90)
In article <15449@ddnvx1.afwl.af.mil> RIDOUT@ddnvx1.afwl.af.mil writes: >lastly, every time I show the final traced picture I cannot close the screen >short of rebooting. NO NEED TO REBOOT! Press ESCAPE but don't do anything to activate another screen. I don't understand why they removed the menu from 0.9 -- I would have thought they add hotkeys to it (Amiga-N, Amiga-Q, etc) A handy thing to have is one of these programs to flip screens with RightAmiga-N or DMouse. P.S. Most of the bugs seem to be gone (hooray) although I have been lured into playing with starfields, the new textures, the bump mapping, and all the other nifty things ... instead of going over my bug list ... maybe tonight ... Has anyone gotten the World Brush to work, in the Globals requester? If so, what settings did you use? ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in ( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water."
) (12/05/90)
I am patiently waiting for my copy. . . . Hmm. . . WHERE IS IT????!!!! I put my order in to Creative Computers a week ago, on the same day I called Impulse to hear they were shipping to distributors that day. So where is it? I've waited so long now, I can wait a few more days, but not weeks. Just curious... Marc Rifkin, r38@psuvm
bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) (12/05/90)
In-Reply-To: message from walrus@wam.umd.edu >Press ESCAPE but don't do anything to activate another screen. I >don't understand why they removed the menu from 0.9 -- I would have >thought they add hotkeys to it (Amiga-N, Amiga-Q, etc) > A handy thing to have is one of these programs to flip screens with >RightAmiga-N or DMouse. > >._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in >( ) walrus@cscwam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water." They probably wrote it under the 2.0 specs which allow you to toggle screens via the left-amiga-n key...or is that left-amiga-m key...or is that right-amiga-something key? <grin> It's configurable I believe. -- Bob ______ Pro-Graphics BBS "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ________ UUCP: crash!pro-graphics!bobl | Pro-Graphics: 908/469-0049 ARPA/DDN: pro-graphics!bobl@nosc.mil | America Online: Graphics3d Internet: bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com | CompuServe: RIP _________ ___________ Raven Enterprises 25 Raven Avenue Piscataway, NJ 08854
menzies@CAM.ORG (Stephen Menzies) (12/09/90)
R_Michael_Medwid@cup.portal.com writes: >next to silver or imagine in my opinion). One thing that could be explained >better is proportioning objects relative to the diamond shaped primatives >in the cycle editor. I've experimented with this quite a bit and I'm still >not entirely clear on that relationship. To understand the cycle editor, I found it very helpful to "snapshot" (you'll find it in the menu) the object (this saves the object in any of it's inbetweened positions and then load it into the detail editor. You'll find that your object(s) now are "threaded" together with a skeleton. Pay attention to the relationship between your objects axis(s) and the skeletal line. Hopes this helps. -steve -- Stephen Menzies Email: S.Menzies@CAM.ORG
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (12/09/90)
AHHHHHHHHHHH!! If someone is writing a letter to Impulse with commentary on 1.0 Imagine pleaes include the following: You can NOT render to anim-op5 format if your have only 512k of chip ram (!!!). I have an Amiga 1000 with a Lucas board (4 meg 32bit ram) and a frances bd (68030/68882) and if I render to Impulse "movie"format I get a warning message "only two screens available" but then it proceeds on to render all the frames and the movie. HOWEVER if I choose ANIM format in the project modify requester..I get a message "can not create anim file" (after receiving the "only two screens to work with" message). I am surmising it's a chip ram problem because my housemate has an Amy 2000 with the new chip set and 1 meg chip ram..any how the identical procedure ran a-ok on his machine. Surely I can't be the last Amy 1000 owner out there! I hope impulse corrects this..the only option I have now is to render all the image files and use Page-Flipper f/x to string them together. btw..I have now rendered using the new f/x modules that came with 1.0 Imagine and all I can say is "Radical..Dude!". I exploded a faceted sphere with a brush mapped onto its surface..the shrapnel maintains the image it had originally (this observed after peaking behind two screens on cell five of a thirty cell anim). In this case Mr. Spok is wrapped around the sphere and he appears to explode quite nicely. Then there the "ripple" f/x. This one is wonderfully easy to use to create a waving flag or water etc.. I've viewed it in preview mode and it's now rendering (looking forward to tomorrow morning even with 030 and 32 bit memory!). The "grow" f/x seems kind of like a filler to me..I mean why not just tween object to make something grow? Or for that matter just use the Size channel in the Action section. If somebody sees something in this effect that I don't please enlighten me. Oh above I mentioned "peeking behind two screens"..I didn't see this in the manual so fyi..if you simply pull down the imagine window..then the work becnch window..then the big blue "nowhere" window..if Imagine has already completed redering of a few frames you will be able to see how they came out here..not have to wait till "the cows come home".
n350bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Duane Fields) (12/10/90)
For those of us considering purchasing Imagine, why doesn't someone upload some of these pictures/anims to the archives? I am sure they would prove quite popular... Duane
) (12/11/90)
In article <10747@helios.TAMU.EDU>, n350bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Duane Fields) says: > >For those of us considering purchasing Imagine, why doesn't someone upload >some of these pictures/anims to the archives? I am sure they would prove >quite popular... I should be getting my order soon. I can't wait. I'll upload my coolest traces.. anyone else? >Duane Marc Rifkin... Artist and Technical Dude & Penn State Amiga Student Consultant R38@PSUVM.PSU.EDU / R38@PSUVM.BITNET (814) 867-4837 (SCHOOL) / (215) 825-3138 (HOME) "Take thy beak from out my heart." - The Raven
watters@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) (12/13/90)
In article <10747@helios.TAMU.EDU> n350bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Duane Fields) writes: >For those of us considering purchasing Imagine, why doesn't someone upload >some of these pictures/anims to the archives? I am sure they would prove >quite popular... > >Duane For those of you with extensive 3D usage on the Amiga, you will immediately identify with this! If you could take the best from every 3D package on the market, and combine it with even more and fresh abilities you would have... Imagine! It is simply a total joy to use! The best of Sculpts object editor... and more! The same beauty of Silvers rendering engine... and more! Fluid character based motion. Powerful keyframing. Spline based paths that recalculate when manipulated, in REAL TIME. ( I have a A2500/30 ) Function based object manipulation. (explosion, ripple, growth, more to come.) IFF to planner object. Boolean operations. (GREAT for outlined font fills!) ect... ect... ect... My point??? Well, 95% of the joy of Imagine comes from the creation of pics, and anims, not just the results. -- Due to the shape of the North American Elk's esophagus, even if it could speak, it could not pronounce the word "lasagna!" - Cliff Clavin, `Cheers' David watters@cis.ohio-state.edu "It's 12:35... and Michigan STILL sucks." ______________________________________________________________________________
mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (12/13/90)
In article <86758@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> david r watters <watters@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: >If you could take the best from every 3D package on the market, and combine >it with even more and fresh abilities you would have... Imagine! >The best of Sculpts object editor... and more! >The same beauty of Silvers rendering engine... and more! >Fluid character based motion. >Powerful keyframing. >Spline based paths that recalculate when manipulated, in REAL TIME. > ( I have a A2500/30 ) >Function based object manipulation. (explosion, ripple, growth, more to come.) >IFF to planner object. >Boolean operations. (GREAT for outlined font fills!) Well quite frankly, when I first saw Imagine at Siggraph this year, I was totally unimpressed. The animation control in JourneyMan was vastly superior and LightWave's rendering capabilties made Imagine look like a toy. But I am open minded and hoping someone can convince me that this is no longer true because I have considered purchasing it just for its object editors. Could someone possibly detail some of its more stellar features? Can it do reflection mapping (not ray-traced reflections) or transparency mapping? How are explosions accomplished? What do you lose rendering in scanline mode? What antialiasing support is there? Will it accept or output objects in formats other than its own? And how fast is it (lets do some benchmarks)? If I have to wait over 20 minutes for a high quality image, it is too slow. If anyone in the Boston/southern New Hampshire area would like to get together and do some comparisons and benchmarks, I would be delighted. You supply the Imagine based system, I'll supply the LightWave/Toaster system. Eagerly awaiting replys............ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Mark Thompson | | mark@westford.ccur.com | | ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark Designing high performance graphics | | (508)392-2480 engines today for a better tomorrow. | +------------------------------------------------------------------------- +
dtiberio@csserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (12/14/90)
A lot of people seem to be upset about Imagine. I know someone you can talk to on PLink. He is often in line 68 of the chat lines, and his name is IMPULSE. He is the president of the Impulse company. Maybe you could talk to him there. :)
walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) (12/14/90)
In article <61534@masscomp.ccur.com> mark@calvin.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes: > >Well quite frankly, when I first saw Imagine at Siggraph this year, I >was totally unimpressed. The animation control in JourneyMan was vastly >superior and LightWave's rendering capabilties made Imagine look like a >toy. Too bad you feel this way. Imagine is anything but a toy. I have not seen JourneyMan, but you have made me curious. If it's really that superior to Imagine, I'd like to see it! >But I am open minded and hoping someone can convince me that this >is no longer true because I have considered purchasing it just for its >object editors. Could someone possibly detail some of its more stellar >features? Keyframe cycle animation, meaning it's very easy to create objects that perform a certain range of motion repetitively (such as an ant or human walking, a locomotive's wheels, piston engine, etc). Boolean operations involving objects cuts objects along their intersections into multiple pieces, each of which can be used or discarded as needed. >Can it do reflection mapping (not ray-traced reflections) or >transparency mapping? Both. It is accomplished by mapping an IFF picture onto the object. The IFF picture's colors define the value of the reflectivity and/or transparency. This is also the way that bump mapping is implemented, as well as color mapping (image wrapping). >How are explosions accomplished? The object is algorithmically separated into its individual triangular face components, which are exploded away from the center according to a variety of parameters, which include control over how much the faces spin while they fly away. This is also the method used for Ripple, where an object's surface undergoes the wave effects seen on a flag in the wind or the water when a stone is dropped in. >What do you lose rendering in scanline mode? True reflectivity, refraction and CAST shadows. A scene renders much faster in Scanline mode. You still get brightside/darkside effects on objects. >What antialiasing support is there? A user controlled "edge level" value which determines how much effort the program spends on antialiasing. You could set it to 0 and get none for faster traces, then raise it high for final results. >Will it accept or output objects in formats other than its own? Imagine reads/writes only TDDD format which is read by at least one PD (or is it Shareware?) program named TTDDD can read/write this format to produce or process ASCII files. It's fairly easy to convert these to other formats. I am working on one to convert from decwrl OFF format to TTDDD. But no, Impulse does not provide such programs. >And how fast is >it (lets do some benchmarks)? If I have to wait over 20 minutes for a >high quality image, it is too slow. Benchmarking will be difficult because lighting, positioning, and the properties of objects can affect the rendering time greatly. Here are a few bits, though, which may be useful to you: My system: 68030/68882 @ 32MHz A red ball, just about filling the entire display, rendered at 352x470 interlaced HAM in Scanline required: 2 min 22 sec The same images scaled down to 64x64 pixels took 5 seconds. Before you leap with joy: this is a single object, a totally primitive scene. I have a scene with a very large diamond (12 faces) has a disturb texture on it (to produce obvious flaws in the mostly transparent material), three spheres, a multi-color pyramid, and all this on a black ground with a thick grid texture mapped onto it. A torus with an explode effect on it goes into several hundred facets that fly outward. The scene requires about 15 minutes in Scanline mode at 352x470 interlaced HAM. Another scene with a crystal sphere, multiple reflective objects, others with roughness and some with brushes wrapped onto them, as well as three light sources, takes (again at 352x470) about 40 minutes in full trace mode. Summa summarum: Full traces with refraction, object reflection, and cast shadows require more time, and for these 20 minutes is only possible if you have relatively simple scenes. An unaccellerated 1000, 500, or 2000 will not be too impressive. Despite all this, Imagine is a fine product, although still suffering from Young-Product-Problems. It is *far superior* to Turbo Silver, and truly a joy to use. Creating objects and animations with it is child's play! ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in ( ) walrus@wam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water."
mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (12/14/90)
In article <1990Dec13.201243.4265@wam.umd.edu> walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) writes: >Too bad you feel this way. Imagine is anything but a toy. I have not >seen JourneyMan, but you have made me curious. If it's really that >superior to Imagine, I'd like to see it! I really didn't mean to say that it was a toy, I just meant that back in August, Lightwave was clearly the leader in rendering capabilities. Obviously since then, new capabilities have been added to the other 3D renderers. Definately check out JourneyMan, it is the only 3D package to use spline surface objects for fantastic organic animation control. > Boolean operations involving objects cuts objects along their >intersections into multiple pieces, each of which can be used or >discarded as needed. Booleans huh, as in CSG (constuctive solid geometry)?! This one of the reasons I really like Imagine as a modeler. I also would like to really see the capabilities of the forms editor. >>How are explosions accomplished? >The object is algorithmically separated into its individual triangular >face components, which are exploded away from the center according to >a variety of parameters, which include control over how much the faces >spin while they fly away. Sounds great! Lightwave does a similar function but doesn't allow for polygon spin. :-( >Imagine reads/writes only TDDD format which is read by at least one PD >(or is it Shareware?) program named TTDDD can read/write this format >to produce or process ASCII files. It's fairly easy to convert these >to other formats. I am working on one to convert from decwrl OFF >format to TTDDD. Are you willing to make your converters publically availble? I will look into writing one for Lightwave if you have info on the format. >My system: 68030/68882 @ 32MHz > A red ball, just about filling the entire display, rendered at > 352x470 interlaced HAM in Scanline required: 2 min 22 sec. > ........some other tests deleted........ Unfortunately I can't duplicate your benchmarks because Lightwave doesn't support 352x470 resolution or HAM output so I put together some fairly representative tests that anyone should be able to run. My machine: 2500/30 w/68882 @ 25MHz All images 640x400 @ 24bits, single distant light source, no antialiasing, all objects fill the screen and have both diffuse and specular surfaces. 1) Public domain Amiga 2000 and keyboard models. models obtained from /incoming/amiga/3d on abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov used surface attributes that were supplied with the model 5520 polygons from 1876 points 2 minutes 6 seconds 2) 4 spheres 128 polys each with 4 different surfaces surface1 = smooth and shiny surface2 = smooth shiny glass (100% transparent with opaque edges) surface3 = smooth shiny wood grain surface4 = smooth shiny with rippled bump map 512 polygons from 456 points 2 minutes 5 seconds 3) same as 2) except with shadow casting 6 minutes 3 seconds 4) 99 spheres 128 polys each in 11x9 array all have smooth and shiny surface 12672 polygons from 11286 points 5 minutes 4 seconds If you would like, try these out with Imagine and post the results. I would have put together some tests that more thoroughly tax the machine using more mapping functions, antialiasing, etc. but I wanted to keep them generic enough not to exploit unique features of one program over the other. I already have a volunteer Imagine owner in my area and hopefully we can put both these programs to the test. Anyway, thanks much for the info. Imagine seems to be evolving into quite a nice product and will most likely end up chewing up some disk space on my system in the not too distant future (when finances permit). FINAL BIG QUESTION!!! Can Imagine render to devices other than the Firecracker, ie. the Toaster? I know the output files are compatible but I am looking for more direct support like a device library. > ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in > ( ) walrus@wam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water." +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Mark Thompson | | mark@westford.ccur.com | | ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark Designing high performance graphics | | (508)392-2480 engines today for a better tomorrow. | +------------------------------------------------------------------------- +
walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) (12/15/90)
In article <61542@masscomp.ccur.com> mark@calvin.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes: >... >Definately check out JourneyMan, it is the only 3D >package to use spline surface objects for fantastic organic animation >control. Could you elaborate on this? I won't have a chance to check out JourneyMan until perhaps early next year. What are "spline surface objects" and what is "organic animation control"? >Booleans huh, as in CSG (constuctive solid geometry)?! This one of the >reasons I really like Imagine as a modeler. I also would like to really >see the capabilities of the forms editor. Correct. This is power that I haven't even begun to tap yet. It's *easy* to cut holes into objects in the shape of lettering, for example. The forms editor is one of those things that I'm not entirely sure how to handle. It's easy to make some "twisted mutant hypercube from the eights dimension" then make a few more and morph between them for some very interesting transformations, but it requires a lot of restraint to produce something coherent. In the right hands it can be very impressive, I'm sure. >>Imagine reads/writes only TDDD format which is read by at least one PD >>(or is it Shareware?) program named TTDDD can read/write this format >>... >>I am working on one to convert from decwrl OFF format to TTDDD. > >Are you willing to make your converters publically availble? Naturally! At this time I'm too busy with some other project that has priority, but I'll finish "off2ttddd" sometime early january. >I will look into writing one for Lightwave if you have info >on the format. TTDDD should be on abcfd20 (/incoming/amiga/3d/ directory) which contains information on the textual Three Dimension Data Description; that's the docs I'm working from. [benchmarks removed] It looks as if LightWave may be faster than Imagine. I'll post results when I find the time (perhaps next week). >FINAL BIG QUESTION!!! Can Imagine render to devices other than the >Firecracker, ie. the Toaster? I know the output files are compatible >but I am looking for more direct support like a device library. Negative. No direct support except for Impulse's own FireCracker/24. >| Mark Thompson | ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in ( ) walrus@wam.umd.edu a canoe?" -- "Both are f***ing close to water."
pochron@cat56.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) (12/15/90)
In article <61542@masscomp.ccur.com> mark@calvin.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes: > >3D renderers. Definately check out JourneyMan, it is the only 3D >package to use spline surface objects for fantastic organic animation >control. Speaking of JourneyMan...Has there been a demo version of it created for it yet? I know it was discussed on the net here a few months ago, but I haven't heard anything from HASH yet. I would really like to see whether it is exactly what I need before spending $500 or so on more software. (ie, I would love to "check it out" myself, but no one around Madison owns it, and you certainly can't buy it here (or anywhere) - only from HASH themselves.) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David M. Pochron | from Rescue Rangers, _A Fly in the Ointment_ pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu| Gadget to Dale: "Keep the hands off the body!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dak1200@cs.rit.edu (David A Kavanagh;902(ILA);icsg6) (12/17/90)
I got Imagine 1.0 about 2 weeks ago and it is really great! I run it on my 1000 with 2.5 meg of RAM and 65meg hard drive. I ran it on a 3000 at a local dealer and was quite impressed. It not only looked great, but was decently fast (no real benchmarks yet). I have been impressed with the object editing features (and the ability to use my old Silver objects). Imagine is also a powerfull animator. If you have Imagine, try the Explode F/X. (has anyone tried the Ripple F/X?) ________________________________________________________________________ David A. Kavanagh ||Rochester Institute of Technology Grad CS 65 Tahoe Drive ||"Great spirits have always encountered violent Rochester, NY 14616-1007||opposition from mediochre minds" - A. Einstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (12/18/90)
In article <1990Dec14.180817.5224@wam.umd.edu> walrus@wam.umd.edu (Udo K Schuermann) writes: >In article <61542@masscomp.ccur.com> mark@calvin.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes: >>Definately check out JourneyMan, it is the only 3D >>package to use spline surface objects for fantastic organic animation >>control. >Could you elaborate on this? I won't have a chance to check out >JourneyMan until perhaps early next year. What are "spline surface >objects" and what is "organic animation control"? Except for Journeyman, all the other 3D animation programs out there for the Amiga use polygonally based objects. This makes animating there movements blocky and awkward. Take for example the ripple effect in Imagine. This is a special chunk of software to do a series of displacements on all the vertices in your object (something you would hardly think of doing by hand). The operations like ripple are conceptually simple, but because you are dealing with polygons, they are very tedious to perform manually. Imagine's ripple effect is a tool to help get around that fact for one special case. Journeyman replaces polygons with spline patches which allows you to move a single control point and cause the entire object (or portions of the object) to deform accordingly. A single spline surface patch can do the work of many polygons. This concept of just moving control points makes for very simple and fluid character (organic) animation. By appling a spline path to the control points of a spline surface object, very realistic character (human, animal,...organic) movements can be created with very little effort. This is Journeymans greatest strength. >TTDDD should be on abcfd20 (/incoming/amiga/3d/ directory) which >contains information on the textual Three Dimension Data Description; >that's the docs I'm working from. Thanxs!!! I got it. >>FINAL BIG QUESTION!!! Can Imagine render to devices other than the >>Firecracker, ie. the Toaster? >Negative. No direct support except for Impulse's own FireCracker/24. What a shame. Supposedly NewTek is planning on releasing libraries for the Toaster in the not to distant future. Maybe enough letters to Impulse will get them to allow some sort of device independance. > ._. Udo Schuermann "How is American beer similar to making love in +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Mark Thompson | | mark@westford.ccur.com | | ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark Designing high performance graphics | | (508)392-2480 engines today for a better tomorrow. | +------------------------------------------------------------------------- +
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (12/18/90)
With journeyman..can you ray-trace these spline patches? I saw its predecessor and the anims looked like scupt's "paining" 32 color mode. Not to take away from the neat organic animation abilities of Journeyman.. I just think Journeyman and Imagine are like apples and oranges..not comparable.
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (12/19/90)
Another imagine experiment..good and bad news to report..I created a bird bath using the forms editor and wrapped a stone brush/texture around it.. looks great..ok so I make some "water" by taking a hemisphere and squashing it down in height..then I use the ripple effect over 20 frames in the actions editor having placed the "water" inside the bird bath. Now the water is filtering a lot of light..slightly blue..and the ripple come out great..radial from the center..as if someone is dripping watter in the center ..BUT.. the BASE of the birdbath changes hues during the ripple effect..as if the reflections from the water were bouncing off some ceiling (ther is no ceiling) or as if the bottom of the bird bath basin were translucent (it is not) or as if some how the ripple effect were connected to the base of the bird bath object (it is not). This is WEIRD. On the good news front..Vista-Pro objects are completely compatible with imagine..save out as silver object and import directly to Imagine. The coloring is all retained when you go into imagine (yay!) I heard someone say Mike Halvorson and others from Impulse are on PLINK.. does anyone have info (tel #, other?) for PLINK..I'd like to be able to sit in on an on-line chat session with these guys. One other item..the explode f/x works splendidly even with very large objects like a 180k object file of Mount St. Hellens (ka-boom!).
baer@qiclab.uucp (Ken Baer) (12/19/90)
In article <37016@cup.portal.com> amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) writes: >With journeyman..can you ray-trace these spline patches? Yes, you can. In fact, with the currently shipping version, it does true patch intersection with both the ray tracer and the scanline renderer. The 1.0 version tesselated the patched into polygons at rendertime. It no longer does this, so reasonable complex scenes can render in 3Megs, very complex scenes can render in 5Megs. > I saw its >predecessor and the anims looked like scupt's "paining" 32 color mode. Journeyman's predecessor was Animation:Apprentice, the first 3D animation program to be released on the Amiga. It's 4 years old, and used topological modeling (voxels). It was not patch based, and supported all Amiga standard display modes. Some of the character animation concepts proved to be very valuable, and are in Journeyman. But nothing related to modeling and rendering in Apprentice is in Journeyman. Journeyman is 24-bit based and supports interlaced-HAM and IFF24 output. And the new renderer in Version 1.1 is very clean. I'd suggest you look at the real thing, and not judge Journeyman on 4 year old software based on a different technology. >Not to take away from the neat organic animation abilities of Journeyman.. >I just think Journeyman and Imagine are like apples and oranges..not >comparable. I think can compare them, but they are designed for different applications. Journeyman is designed for organic character animation that uses lots of fluid motion and morphing. Imagine concentrated more on logo and mechanical object creation. -- // -Ken Baer. Programmer/Animator, Hash Enterprises / Earthling \X/ Usenet: baer@qiclab.UUCP or PLink: KEN BAER "What?!? Sore again?" -- Bugs Bunny to Yosemity Sam
her@compel.UUCP (Helge Egelund Rasmussen) (12/19/90)
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) writes: [Description of nice scene with bird bath and rippled water] >center ..BUT.. the BASE of the birdbath changes hues during the ripple >effect..as if the reflections from the water were bouncing off some ceiling >(ther is no ceiling) or as if the bottom of the bird bath basin were >translucent (it is not) or as if some how the ripple effect were connected >to the base of the bird bath object (it is not). This is WEIRD. I'm not sure that I understand this, are you saying that the COLOR of the bottom of the basin is changing depending of the form of the surface of the basin (ie. the water)?? This would either indicate that Imagine is so advanced that it can handle different indices of refraction for different wavelenghts (of the light not the water :-). Or it would indicate a bug. I don't think that the first case is true, so it may be a bug :-( What colors do you get on the bottom? >On the good news front..Vista-Pro objects are completely compatible with >imagine..save out as silver object and import directly to Imagine. The >coloring is all retained when you go into imagine (yay!) Vista-Pro is the fractal landscape generator which contains real landscapes isn't it? Is it good? useful? Cheap? >One other item..the explode f/x works splendidly even with very large >objects like a 180k object file of Mount St. Hellens (ka-boom!). THAT I'd like to see! Could you mail it to me, or maybe even better post it or place it somewhere ftp'able?? (Unfortunately, I haven't direct ftp access, but I could use BITFTP if neccessary) What about creating an Imagine object database somewhere? I've got some converted TS and Sculpt objects which others could be interested in, and I know that I would be interested in nearly any object that I could put my hands on!! Helge --- Helge E. Rasmussen . PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00 . E-mail: her@compel.dk Compel A/S . FAX + 45 31 37 06 44 . Copenhagen, Denmark
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (12/20/90)
Vista-Pro creates 3d objects which represent both real places and imaginary fractal landscapes (altho you can "fractalize" the real scapes if desired). As I mentioned it is fully imagine compatible..for 3D landscapes I have seen nothing that even comes close..this comes under the heading of "virtual reality"..for instance using this data you could create a helicopter flight over one of Saturns moons (this is included w/ program). Explaining my problem w/ imagine inthe bird bath example..you can think of it in three parts, the water, the basin and the base (tho the basin and base are actually one object). As I was saying, when the water in the basin ripples, the BASE has changes in colorizing. As the bird bath itself has NO transparency/filtering..it should pass NO light when light is cast on it from above..but as I mentioned the lamp shine on the rippling water and somehow appears to travel through my "stone" birdbath to reach the base of the bird bath. I'm happy to send out some of my Imagine objects..I just have *no* familiarity with ftp or bit ftp or whatever..I'm new to this whole Internet stuff. I'll send stuff via disk (compressed using lhrc) if you send a disk. Just send E-mail to arrange. Also would send out Imagine anims if they'll fit in compressed format on a diskette.
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (12/20/90)
In article <37044@cup.portal.com> amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) writes: > >I heard someone say Mike Halvorson and others from Impulse are on PLINK.. >does anyone have info (tel #, other?) for PLINK..I'd like to be able to >sit in on an on-line chat session with these guys. > People/Link (Plink) signup or for more info: 1-800-524-0100 (voice) Mon-Fri, 9am-5pm Central Time 1-800-826-8855 (modem) 24 hours every day 300/1200/2400 Indeed Mike H, Pres of Impulse is on Plink frequently. His ID there is IMPULSE. His recently-hired VP of Software, Steve (MAGELLAN) Gillmor is also on daily,as is Rick Rodriguez who wrote the Imagine manuals. We have a "Graphics/Video/Animation" live conference each Wednesday night and have been doing it for years. In tonite's conference were Mike and Steve, along with Amiga art & video luminaries Allen "LightWave" Hastings, Louis Markoya, Ken "Hash Enterprises" Baer, Oran J Sands, Brad Schenck, Marvin "Amiguy" Landis, Leo "The man in the cape" Schwab, and a dozen others, whoops, forgot Mark "NewTek" Randall, all "talking" at each other for a couple hours. Besides Plink's Amiga Zones (which I run), Impulse has just last week opened their own support area on Plink. Today Mike posted there a 350K "Robo-cop" Imagine object he created. The conferences we hold are completely open to any Plink subscriber. We held a special conf. with Mike last week, had 78 people in it, and gave away three copies of Imagine. If you decide to sign up, you can reach me there at my Plink ID in my .sig below. Harv Laser {anywhere}!crash!hrlaser "Park and lock it. Not responsible." People/Link: CBM*HARV
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (12/23/90)
In a previous post Ken Baer states "Imagine concentrated more on logo and mechanical object creation" (contrasting it with fluid character animation abilities in Journeyman). ..I wish we had some of the folks from Impulse posting here. I have to say that Imagine is hardly limited to being a "flying logo" generator. Take for example their cycle editor..finally an intuitive tool for creating hierarchical motion sequences. Then these key-framed animated objects can be placed in another scene which is being keyframe at another level..key frames within key frames. There is ample opportunity here for an animator to show off plenty of character personality given this kind of powerful tool. Another word that seems to be getting a lot of use here in this thread is "organic". Both folks from Impulse and Hash seem to make amplbe use of this term. At first it seemed to make sense..but as the discussion progresses it seems to become more vague..kinda like "low calorie banana bread" (??). Anyhow I raise the issue as Impulse claims easy "organic" object creation with their forms editor. I've not seen any 3D editor like forms. Again very powerful, very intuitive means for creating objects that you would tend to find more in nature than off a cad system. You can also use it to quickly create complex mechanical looking objects. When I think of logo creation, I think of programs like Video Effects 3D which focused only on this specialty. But to lump imagine in this category of product..is wrong. My house-mate is getting the Journeyman product soon and I am very interested in seeing its capabilites. So much software..so little time <sigh>..
baer@qiclab.uucp (Ken Baer) (12/23/90)
In article <37162@cup.portal.com> amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) writes: >In a previous post Ken Baer states "Imagine concentrated more on logo and >mechanical object creation" (contrasting it with fluid character animation >abilities in Journeyman). ..I wish we had some of the folks from Impulse >posting here. I have to say that Imagine is hardly limited to being a >"flying logo" generator. Take for example their cycle editor..finally an >intuitive tool for creating hierarchical motion sequences. Then these >key-framed animated objects can be placed in another scene which is being >keyframe at another level..key frames within key frames. There is ample >opportunity here for an animator to show off plenty of character personality >given this kind of powerful tool. The character animation features of the two programs are quite different. Journeyman is designed primarily for character animation (which was my point in the previous message). It is our second character animation program, our first was Animation:Apprentice (which was the first 3D animation program for Amiga, it predated Videoscape). Apprentice used key frame based armature motion on characters, much the same way Imagine does. Our objects used a topological modeling method called Voxels, and we used stick figures for reference. We call the motion you put on a character, like a walk, a relative motion, and what direction he's walking an absolute motion. Apprentice had both. Journeyman takes a major leap beyond that. You have much finer control over the motion using channel graphs. You start by making the key frame poses, then you can go into the channel editor and change the transition with a spline curve over time. This gives the motion a much more natural feel that cannot be achieve with simple key framing. But beyond that, Journeyman has 2 other kinds of relative motion; muscle morphing and spine morphing. Muscle morphing allows you to the modify the object's spline control points (you can bend and stretch the curves that make up the object). You even have channel control over this (don't ask me how this works). Spine motion is my favorite, you can build a spine in the object, and then bend the spine on its control points and the rest of the object bends around it. It works just like a human spine. You couldn't do that with a polygon based system. I think you will see a big difference when you have both programs side by side. We've been doing character animation for 4 years now, and Journeyman is an attempt to fulfil our own personal (and out customer's) wish list. >Another word that seems to be getting a lot of use here in this thread is >"organic". Both folks from Impulse and Hash seem to make amplbe use of this >term. We've used this term from te beginning in 1987. What we mean by "organic" is natural, as one would find in nature, and non-mechanical. A dolphin is organic, and F-18 is mechanical. You CAN make organic shapes out of polygons, but, in my opinion, 8 cubic patches beat out 10,000 polygons anyday! Even with phong shading, polgonal objects have a faceted edge when you move the camera close. > At first it seemed to make sense..but as the discussion progresses >it seems to become more vague..kinda like "low calorie banana bread" (??). >Anyhow I raise the issue as Impulse claims easy "organic" object creation >with their forms editor. I've not seen any 3D editor like forms. Again >very powerful, very intuitive means for creating objects that you would >tend to find more in nature than off a cad system. You can also use it >to quickly create complex mechanical looking objects. Again, with polygons, you trade curves for object size and render time. Polygons by their nature are great for mechanical stuff and logos and a pain for natural organic shapes. >When I think of logo creation, I think of programs like Video Effects 3D >which focused only on this specialty. But to lump imagine in this >category of product..is wrong. Let me rephrase. I think it's closer to the mechanical and 3D logo world than the 3D character animation world, mainly because it's tools are geared more for that. >My house-mate is getting the Journeyman product soon and I am very >interested in seeing its capabilites. I look forward to hearing your impressions (please not Jimmy Cagney! :-) > So much software..so little time ><sigh>.. So much programming, so little time! -- // -Ken Baer. Programmer/Animator, Hash Enterprises / Earthling \X/ Usenet: baer@qiclab.UUCP or PLink: KEN BAER "What?!? Sore again?" -- Bugs Bunny to Yosemity Sam
menzies@CAM.ORG (Stephen Menzies) (12/25/90)
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) writes: >In a previous post Ken Baer states "Imagine concentrated more on logo and >mechanical object creation" (contrasting it with fluid character animation >abilities in Journeyman). ..I wish we had some of the folks from Impulse >posting here. I have to say that Imagine is hardly limited to being a >"flying logo" generator. Take for example their cycle editor..finally an >intuitive tool for creating hierarchical motion sequences. Then these >key-framed animated objects can be placed in another scene which is being B >keyframe at another level..key frames within key frames. There is ample >opportunity here for an animator to show off plenty of character personality >given this kind of powerful tool. >Another word that seems to be getting a lot of use here in this thread is >"organic". Both folks from Impulse and Hash seem to make amplbe use of this >term. At first it seemed to make sense..but as the discussion progresses >it seems to become more vague..kinda like "low calorie banana bread" (??). >Anyhow I raise the issue as Impulse claims easy "organic" object creation >with their forms editor. I've not seen any 3D editor like forms. Again >very powerful, very intuitive means for creating objects that you would >tend to find more in nature than off a cad system. You can also use it >to quickly create complex mechanical looking objects. >When I think of logo creation, I think of programs like Video Effects 3D >which focused only on this specialty. But to lump imagine in this >category of product..is wrong. >My house-mate is getting the Journeyman product soon and I am very >interested in seeing its capabilites. So much software..so little time ><sigh>.. Here! Here! well put. I would like to add to the list Imagine's "organic" special effects like *Grow, Explode and Ripple" as well the ability to give "organic" looking surfaces with it's very powerful Altitude Mapping and Solid textures. I have not seen any 3D editor like "Forms" either nor it's simplicity and ease of use. Let's not forget to mention Imagine's ability to morph or transform any object or attribute. All those combinations! Well, it'll all come out in the wash, won't it. cya -steve -- Stephen Menzies Email: S.Menzies@CAM.ORG
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (12/25/90)
In-Reply-To: message from amigan@cup.portal.com
Ken didn't slight Imagine. In addition to logo type animations, he mentioned
mechanical animations (cars, planes, etc.). I'm sure that organic shapes can
be created and animated. Louis Markoya can attest to this ("Whale
Trace","Woodland II").
But no polygonal rendering package can get the type of smoothly flowing curves
that splines afford. And the closer you get to an edge, or the higher the
resolution of your output device (be it framebuffer or film), the more
pronounced its faceted profile becomes.
Sean
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