spworley@athena.mit.edu (Spaceman Spiff) (12/31/90)
I bought Imagine about a week ago, and I've probably put in 60 hours playing
with it. I've done a lot of DPaint animation, but Imagine is my first 3D
design tool.
General comments:
Good features- You can create objects pretty easily. It can automatically
trace IFF pix to make outlines, which can be spun or extruded
or swept to form a 3d object. It also can use IFF pix mapped
onto objects to define color, reflectivity, transparency, and
altitude. Altitude is especially cool- you can actually make
the object's surface bulge according to the intensity of
the iff file. Has great potential!
Overall high quality- the program is SMOOTH. Caveats below.
Bad Features- Very few. Any 3D effect I can think of exists- its just a matter
of implementing them. Some VERY complex actions, like exploding
an object into its component bits wich go spinning off, are
trivial to implement.
It is possible to automatically fill an outline with triangles
to make a surface (like PIXEL3D & others) by using a tool called
slice. Its kinda annoying, and has too many steps. I would LOVE
to just select the outline and select "tesselate."
The Form Editor is a bit strange, and I don't know why it exists.
Yes, I'll use it to build asteroids, but what else?
The Major Flaw-
In-Box Support. Imagine comes with a SINGLE 3.5 floppy, two
thin manuals (reference & tutorial), and two Xeroxed sheets
explain textures and effects. Thats all. My big flame, especially
when I was first learning, was THERE ARE NO ON-DISK EXAMPLES!
THERE IS NO PREMADE OBJECT LIBRARY! THERE ARE NO SAMPLE PICTURES!
I cringe when I hear of Alan Hastings "phonebook" of objects.
I have not used Lightwave, but I'd LOVE to pull a car out and
play with it. Every object I render was CREATED BY ME! Turbo
Silver objects (at least the ones on abcfd20) don't work, though
they should.
The manuals are also not comprehensive enough. They aren't
badly done, or wrong, they're just brief. The tutorial
manual leads you though a good number of examples (about
5 or 6 "projects") but the tutorials are more like "click on
this. Select That. Now slice." as opposed to "Slice is a
powerful tool that will let you cut one object with another,
like a big 3D cookie cutter. You can then use the pieces any way
you want. Click on this to tell Imagine this is the object
that should be sliced (the cookie dough), then select the
slicing object (the cookie cutter). The last object to be
selected is always the object that actually does the slicing.
Slice can be used in many other neat effects..."
The reference manual is especially brief. It consists of
a sentence describing each pull-down menu selection, and not
much more. "Group will take and combine all selected objects
into a group." Fine. Whats a group?? What is the difference
between group and join? WHY DO I EVER WANT TO GROUP?? This is
not sarcasm- I still don't know.
Small bugs: Loads. Only one guru, but I was mega-tasking, and it could have
been another program. Small bugs abound, though. After you view
a picture, DO NOT PRESS A MOUSE BUTTON TO ESCAPE! Why? It will
freeze Imagine (but not hang the machine). If you do this during
a looping anim, YOU MUST REBOOT TO ESCAPE!
I can't render glass! Transparency does not seem to work!!
It could be my fault, but I've tried LOTS of stuff, filter maps,
ambient light, index of refraction, using full raytrace (which
is essential) playing with reflection, putting light sources
everywhere- but nothing. I cannot see through anything. I've
got a 6M A3000, and Imagine & Imaginefp give identical results.
My friend's A2000 couldn't do it either. Any suggestions?
My big flame was no in box support. I haven't used it, but Impulse has
an Imagine helpline that I'll get around to calling this week. Until then,
has ANYONE rendered glass? Or am I just daft?
A warning: this program does not have a learning curve. It has
a learning WALL. It is not pleasant like D-paint's "smiley face to colored
smiley face to bouncing colored smileyface to stenciled animbrushed colored
smileyface perspective" its all thown at you at once. Keep plugging. Read
the tutorial through before you start, and read the reference manual each
time you use a new command. I was VERY frustrated for a while, but its inherent
in 3D design. I expect that SA4D or Lightwave are probably bad for the neophite
as well.
Anyway, my overall impression is VERY positive, despite all the annoyances
that I listed. I am VERY pleased with it, especially now I know how to
get around everywhere. I can't compare it to Lightwave or SA4D or TS, but
its a SMOOTH product and I know I'll use it a lot in th future, just for
fun.
A closing suggestion: All us Imaginers should get together on a mailing
list! I'd love to swap techniques, questions, objects, ideas! If one
doesn't exist already, we should make one!
Anyway, everyone should feel free to e-mail me with any questions you have
if you're thinking of getting Imagine or especially if you're trying to
learn the thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley spworley@athena.mit.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (01/01/91)
In an earlier thread we solved the no-transparency problem..simply put "shininess" factor to 0 andrender in full trace mode. I've seen it work. With regard to object conversion. If you are a user of Interchange, this tip might help. If you create an object in Sculpt and want to convert to imagine, it take an extra step more than simply converting to Turbo-Silver format..do that..but then load the converted object into Silver and then save the object back out *while in Silver*. Then you should be able to load your object into imagine. Looking at object format w/ a hex editor you quickly see there is a difference in format. Also I suspect if you purchased library of objects that they were simply run through interchange.. again load them to Silver first, save there and then load to Imagine. With regard to explosions, the best program I've seen for explode effects for the amiga was made by a local FAUG (First Amiga Users Group) for use with Video Scape 3D. His name is Jim Lange, a cobol business programmer by day. Anyhow Jim sold his product at a couple of FAUG meetings and claimed to have a rev II coming out..but it never materialized. I don't think many copies of rev I were ever sold. Anyhow the thing that was so great about his program were all the control you had over the explosion such as location of explode center, decay factor, bounce factor, explosion force in meters per second and many others..and explode was just one effect of several. The thing I like most about his explosions was that objects were broken down into as many "shards" as you defined.. where as Imagine's explode effect turns everything into triangles (when was the last time you saw something explode into triangles?) Impulse should hire Jim (get him away from that cobol stuff!..but then sometimes ya gotta go where the $$ are)
watters@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) (01/01/91)
I have had no trouble loading my old TurboSilver 3.0/SV object files. This does not mean my experience with Imagine has been trouble free, it has a few bugs. It is still the best of all I have used. -- "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars. All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars!" - RUSH David watters@cis.ohio-state.edu "It's 12:35... and Michigan STILL sucks." _-_-_-__---_---_---__-_-_-____ TurboExpress : The Neo*Geo of portables _____
bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) (01/02/91)
In-Reply-To: message from spworley@athena.mit.edu
I agree completely with your opinion about Imagine's manuals. They are terse!
The Tutorials are like telling a child the steps to do something. They DO NOT
"teach" you HOW to do it, they just tell you step by step. Move cursor to the
right, pick the 3rd menu item, click the left mouse button.
That kind of tutorial we don't need. We need to know the conventions behind
what we are doing. How to do it and what the requirements are would be alot
more helpful.
As for the auto-trace and slice...forget it. I've tried it several times with
a very complex object (the continents of the world) and Imagine will just not
slice them. I finally got enough ram to do the operation (7 megs) but now I
keep getting the frustrating "an edge is too close to an edge or a face is too
close to a face" message. Yeah, great. After about 35 of those messages I
gave up. This is after about 10 minutes of processing on a 68030/88882
machine! It give you no indication of where this edge might be or how far
into this "slice" you are so you have absolutely no idea where this error may
be coming from.
I've decided to purchase Pixel 3D to do my auto-tracing and facing but now I
can't seem to find anyone who has this package in stock or is even able to get
it in stock.
As for the comparison of Imagine and Lightwave, I will have to say that the
Lightwave interface makes most of what you are talking about very simple. The
Interface on Lightwave is far and away much better than the Imagine interface
as far as ease of use. It's also MUCH MUCH better for scene design. You can
move the camera around in real time and see the camera's view in the
perspective window in real time! That is the way to place a camera!
I'm not knocking Imagine's capabilities. It is a VERY capable program and
that is one reason I purchased it. I have done some test output to 24bit IFF
files and then loaded them into the Toaster and they look fantastic! What
this means is that I can do some work at another location with Imagine and
still output the files/animation on the Toaster at my associates editing
facility. I don't need to purchase a Toaster personally to do my 3D work. I
can do it in Imagine and output it to the Toaster.
I still wish we could purchase Modeler and Lightwave 3D as a stand alone item
that would render to something other than the Toaster. In this way I could
produce my scenes and animations and then just bring the data over to my
associates and output them to tape. At this point, you can't get the 3d
software for the Toaster without the Toaster. But, for $1495 (less at some
mail-order houses) you get a great 3D package AND a 24-bit frame buffer to
boot!
I would like to be part of the Imagine mailing list when it does become
organized. I will be more than happy to share my experiences with the program
as well as my objects with others. Count me in!
-- Bob
______ Pro-Graphics BBS "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ________
UUCP: crash!pro-graphics!bobl | Pro-Graphics: 908/469-0049
ARPA/DDN: pro-graphics!bobl@nosc.mil | America Online: Graphics3d
Internet: bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com | CompuServe: RIP
_________ ___________
Raven Enterprises 25 Raven Avenue Piscataway, NJ 08854 hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (01/02/91)
In article <6653@crash.cts.com> bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from spworley@athena.mit.edu > > >That kind of tutorial we don't need. We need to know the conventions behind >what we are doing. How to do it and what the requirements are would be alot >more helpful. Hopefully Victor Osaka will do his own "Beginner's Journey in Imagine" book as he did with Turbo Silver last year. Victor has what it takes to gently guide one thru the intracacies of these complicated programs. I'll ask him what his plans are w.r.t. another book and anyone wanting to know more about Victor's "Turbo SIG" just as to grab a copy of .info magazine #36 soon as it hits the stands. > >As for the auto-trace and slice...forget it. I've tried it several times with >a very complex object (the continents of the world) and Imagine will just not >slice them. I finally got enough ram to do the operation (7 megs) but now I >keep getting the frustrating "an edge is too close to an edge or a face is too >close to a face" message. Yeah, great. After about 35 of those messages I >gave up. This is after about 10 minutes of processing on a 68030/88882 >machine! It give you no indication of where this edge might be or how far >into this "slice" you are so you have absolutely no idea where this error may >be coming from. I've been successful with slicing on a few occasions and unsuccessful on many others. Don't try to slice two complex objects together. With 9 Meg of RAM (well.. about 8 Meg free) I tried slicing an extruded corporate logo into a relatively simple "apple" object and watched screenx's RAM meter go down...down...down... waiting for the impending crash'n'burn as Itotally ran out of memory.. when I got down to 0K CHIP and 14K FAST Imagine threw up a "not enough RAM" message and gave up on the slice operation and gave me all my memory back. Scary. The problem with a routine like this, as explained to me by Mr. Mike @ Impulse is that there's no way to know how much memory a slice is going to require till the software starts doing it. I dunno if I just needed a few more K to accomplish the slice I was trying to do, or a few more MEG. There's no way to tell. So start with real simple slicing stuff till you get some kind of feel for how much ram it takes and run something like screenx or other tiny menu bar memory meter, pull imagine's screen down a squinch, and watch how much RAM the slicing prodecure takes as it progresses. > >I've decided to purchase Pixel 3D to do my auto-tracing and facing but now I >can't seem to find anyone who has this package in stock or is even able to get >it in stock. An excellent piece of software. (I reviewed it for AmigaWorld a couple issues back). Hunt around for it.. it's out there. Make sure you get nothing older than version 1.1 of Pixel 3D. This is, in my opinion, the best 2D IFF > 3D Object auto-tracing software for the Amiga that's out there so far. w. > >As for the comparison of Imagine and Lightwave, I will have to say that the >Lightwave interface makes most of what you are talking about very simple. The >Interface on Lightwave is far and away much better than the Imagine interface >as far as ease of use. It's also MUCH MUCH better for scene design. You can >move the camera around in real time and see the camera's view in the >perspective window in real time! That is the way to place a camera! > I gotta admit that from what I've seen of LightWave, Allen did one helluva job on the interface and I echo your sentiments and wish I could get LightWave as a free-standing renderer without the $1600 "dongle" :-) >I would like to be part of the Imagine mailing list when it does become >organized. I will be more than happy to share my experiences with the program >as well as my objects with others. Count me in! Join Victor Osaka's "Turbo SIG" if you haven't yet, Bob. Even if you can't make the West LA monthly meetings, the newsletter alone is worth the dues. Harv Laser {anywhere}!crash!hrlaser "Park and lock it. Not responsible." People/Link: CBM*HARV
amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) (01/02/91)
Anyone know the address (E-mail or other) for Victor Osaka and the Turbo-SIG?
her@compel.UUCP (Helge Egelund Rasmussen) (01/02/91)
spworley@athena.mit.edu (Spaceman Spiff) writes: >A closing suggestion: All us Imaginers should get together on a mailing >list! I'd love to swap techniques, questions, objects, ideas! If one >doesn't exist already, we should make one! Yes, lets do that. Anyone know how to do this?? I'd especially like to discuss methods for creating special objects and/or effects. It would also be nice to have a library of objects somewhere. Helge --- Helge E. Rasmussen . PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00 . E-mail: her@compel.dk Compel A/S . FAX + 45 31 37 06 44 . Copenhagen, Denmark
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (01/03/91)
In article <37494@cup.portal.com> amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid) writes: >Anyone know the address (E-mail or other) for Victor Osaka and the Turbo-SIG? The Turbo SIG - Victor Osaka 1341 Ocean Ave. #349 Santa Monica, CA 90401 213-398-7649 Membership (includes the newsletter): $12/year to that address $25/year outside USA Victor's Turbo Silver book: $20 to that address or $22.50 to Europe. Harv Laser {anywhere}!crash!hrlaser "Park and lock it. Not responsible." People/Link: CBM*HARV
spworley@athena.mit.edu (Spaceman Spiff) (01/03/91)
I started this thread, and since then I've solved some of my problems. I've found and made a few 3-d objects, and I've uploaded about 40 objects to ab20.larc.nasa.gov in incoming/amiga/3d/Imagine. If I find more, I'll upload them as well. Still no luck rendering glass, though many people have suggested various methods, none has worked. Has anyone actually DONE it? AMAZING response to a suggestion for starting an Imagine mailing list. Does anyone know how to make one, or is willing to actually do it? I have at least 10 names already. If you are interested in joining this lit to discuss Imagine techniques, bug-workarounds, methods, objects, whatever, Mail me, and I'll put you on the list if/when it is created. I'm also willing to act as a repoitory/collector of Imagine objects... I've uploaded about 40 so far. I'd like to accumulate more and upload them as I go to ab20. If you have any, mail me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steve Worley spworley@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (01/04/91)
In a message From: spworley@athena.mit.edu (Spaceman Spiff) [Interesting review omitted] > The Form Editor is a bit strange, and I don't know why it exists. > Yes, I'll use it to build asteroids, but what else? Vases, lightbulbs, plates, cookies, jars, glasses, etc., etc., anything that is symetrical (or even that isn't) is easiest to create the basic shape in the Forms editor first and then massage it in the Detail editor. >Small bugs: Loads. Only one guru, but I was mega-tasking, and it could have > been another program. Small bugs abound, though. After you view > a picture, DO NOT PRESS A MOUSE BUTTON TO ESCAPE! Why? It will > freeze Imagine (but not hang the machine). If you do this during > a looping anim, YOU MUST REBOOT TO ESCAPE! You don't HAVE to reboot to stop the anim. You must hit Amiga-M while clicking to cause the Imagine window to be selected and then just hit escape. A major pain I admit, but not quite as bad as all that (Ctrl-A-A). > I can't render glass! Transparency does not seem to work!! > It could be my fault, but I've tried LOTS of stuff, filter maps, > ambient light, index of refraction, using full raytrace (which > is essential) playing with reflection, putting light sources > everywhere- but nothing. I cannot see through anything. I've > got a 6M A3000, and Imagine & Imaginefp give identical results. > My friend's A2000 couldn't do it either. Any suggestions? I have no problems with transparent objects (except that I object to the rendering time-I have a full overscan 24 bit image that took almost 6 hours on a 28Mhz 68030/68882). Be sure to turn shininess all the way down! If not the object will not be transparent. If that isn't your problem, let me know and I'll work with you or send you a couple of my transparent objects. >A warning: this program does not have a learning curve. It has >a learning WALL. It is not pleasant like D-paint's "smiley face to colored >smiley face to bouncing colored smileyface to stenciled animbrushed colored >smileyface perspective" its all thown at you at once. Keep plugging. Read >the tutorial through before you start, and read the reference manual each >time you use a new command. I was VERY frustrated for a while, but its inherent >in 3D design. I expect that SA4D or Lightwave are probably bad for the neophite >as well. I agree, but the results have been well worth it so far and the improvement over Turbo Silver is emmense! >A closing suggestion: All us Imaginers should get together on a mailing >list! I'd love to swap techniques, questions, objects, ideas! If one >doesn't exist already, we should make one! Excellent idea. Can we put stuff in ab20.larc.nasa.gov for sharing? Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) (01/06/91)
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) writes: > In article <6653@crash.cts.com> bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) writes: >>In-Reply-To: message from spworley@athena.mit.edu >> >> >>That kind of tutorial we don't need. We need to know the conventions behind >>what we are doing. How to do it and what the requirements are would be alot >>more helpful. > > Hopefully Victor Osaka will do his own "Beginner's Journey in Imagine" > book as he did with Turbo Silver last year. Victor has what it takes > to gently guide one thru the intracacies of these complicated programs. > I'll ask him what his plans are w.r.t. another book and anyone wanting > to know more about Victor's "Turbo SIG" just as to grab a copy of .info > magazine #36 soon as it hits the stands. Look forward to what you find out from Victor. >>As for the auto-trace and slice...forget it. I've tried it several times with >>a very complex object (the continents of the world) and Imagine will just not >>slice them. I finally got enough ram to do the operation (7 megs) but now I >>keep getting the frustrating "an edge is too close to an edge or a face is too >>close to a face" message. Yeah, great. After about 35 of those messages I >>gave up. This is after about 10 minutes of processing on a 68030/88882 >>machine! It give you no indication of where this edge might be or how far >>into this "slice" you are so you have absolutely no idea where this error may >>be coming from. > > I've been successful with slicing on a few occasions and unsuccessful > on many others. Don't try to slice two complex objects together. With > 9 Meg of RAM (well.. about 8 Meg free) I tried slicing an extruded > corporate logo into a relatively simple "apple" object and watched > screenx's RAM meter go down...down...down... waiting for the impending > crash'n'burn as Itotally ran out of memory.. when I got down to 0K CHIP > and 14K FAST Imagine threw up a "not enough RAM" message and gave up > on the slice operation and gave me all my memory back. Scary. Yeah, it's even more scary when you finally get the object together and you go to render it and the same thing happens. Hate to see a ton of work got to waste because you can't render the final scene. > The problem with a routine like this, as explained to me by Mr. Mike > @ Impulse is that there's no way to know how much memory a slice is > going to require till the software starts doing it. I dunno if I just > needed a few more K to accomplish the slice I was trying to do, or > a few more MEG. There's no way to tell. So start with real simple > slicing stuff till you get some kind of feel for how much ram it takes > and run something like screenx or other tiny menu bar memory meter, > pull imagine's screen down a squinch, and watch how much RAM the > slicing prodecure takes as it progresses. Somehow I just don't like sitting there watching a ram meter click on down to the 0 mark. It just shouldn't suck up that much ram. Maybe I'm expecting too much. >>I've decided to purchase Pixel 3D to do my auto-tracing and facing but now I >>can't seem to find anyone who has this package in stock or is even able to get >>it in stock. > > An excellent piece of software. (I reviewed it for AmigaWorld a couple > issues back). Hunt around for it.. it's out there. Make sure you get > nothing older than version 1.1 of Pixel 3D. This is, in my opinion, > the best 2D IFF > 3D Object auto-tracing software for the Amiga that's > out there so far. w. Well, it seems to be the best answer out there but be aware that it DOES quire editing even though the sales propoganda says it's so good it doesn't need an editor. That may be fine for simple shapes, but complex IFF's require a certain amount of manual editing. >>As for the comparison of Imagine and Lightwave, I will have to say that the >>Lightwave interface makes most of what you are talking about very simple. The >>Interface on Lightwave is far and away much better than the Imagine interface >>as far as ease of use. It's also MUCH MUCH better for scene design. You can >>move the camera around in real time and see the camera's view in the >>perspective window in real time! That is the way to place a camera! >> > I gotta admit that from what I've seen of LightWave, Allen did one > helluva job on the interface and I echo your sentiments and wish I > could get LightWave as a free-standing renderer without the > $1600 "dongle" :-) >From what the guys at NewTek have told me, there is no chance of Lightwave becoming available without the Toaster. Too bad, it looks to be a great 3D package with a fantastic user interface. >I would like to be part of the Imagine mailing list when it does become >>organized. I will be more than happy to share my experiences with the program >>as well as my objects with others. Count me in! > > Join Victor Osaka's "Turbo SIG" if you haven't yet, Bob. Even if > you can't make the West LA monthly meetings, the newsletter alone is > worth the dues. Ha! I live in NJ. There is no way I could make the meetings. <grin> Will check out the newsletter. Thanks for the info. -- Bob ______ Pro-Graphics BBS "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ________ UUCP: crash!pro-graphics!bobl | Pro-Graphics: 908/469-0049 ARPA/DDN: pro-graphics!bobl@nosc.mil | America Online: Graphics3d Internet: bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com | CompuServe: RIP _________ ___________ Raven Enterprises 25 Raven Avenue Piscataway, NJ 08854
caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) (01/07/91)
In article <6749@crash.cts.com> bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) writes: >hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) writes: >>In article <6653@crash.cts.com> bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) writes: >>>In-Reply-To: message from spworley@athena.mit.edu >>>I've decided to purchase Pixel 3D to do my auto-tracing and facing but now I >>>can't seem to find anyone who has this package in stock or is even able to get >>>it in stock. >> >> An excellent piece of software. (I reviewed it for AmigaWorld a couple >> issues back). Hunt around for it.. it's out there. Make sure you get >> nothing older than version 1.1 of Pixel 3D. This is, in my opinion, >> the best 2D IFF > 3D Object auto-tracing software for the Amiga that's >> out there so far. w. > >Well, it seems to be the best answer out there but be aware that it DOES >quire editing even though the sales propoganda says it's so good it doesn't >need an editor. That may be fine for simple shapes, but complex IFF's require >a certain amount of manual editing. Have the silly memory limitations been removed from Pixel3D? I've got 1.0, and never heard about an update. Outside of very simple pictures, it would always give me memory errors, even when I used the -a5 switch. I've got scads of memory (10 meg) so why should I be limited to the tiny bit that Pixel3D allocates? Otherwise, it's a terrific product. -=> CAW Christopher A. Wichura Multitasking. Just DO it. caw@miroc.chi.il.us (my amiga) ...the Amiga way... u12401@uicvm.uic.edu (school account)
groo@chsdip (Bill Squier) (01/07/91)
In message <6653@crash.cts.com> bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin), writes: > >As for the auto-trace and slice...forget it. I've tried it several times with >a very complex object (the continents of the world) and Imagine will just not >slice them. I finally got enough ram to do the operation (7 megs) but now I >keep getting the frustrating "an edge is too close to an edge or a face is too >close to a face" message. Yeah, great. After about 35 of those messages I >gave up. This is after about 10 minutes of processing on a 68030/88882 >machine! It give you no indication of where this edge might be or how far >into this "slice" you are so you have absolutely no idea where this error may >be coming from. The message "And Edge is too close to an edge or a face" is more frustrating than it appears, since it's not always what the program means to say. Apparently it produces that message no matter WHAT goes wrong with the slice operation. I had an object I was slicing (a box being sliced by a tube) which produced that error message, even though none of the conditions it mentioned were true. The solution? LESS POINTS. After cutting the box down to 10 x 10 x 1 (from 30 x 30 x 10) the slice operation worked perfectly, without having to move either of the two objects. If you can possibly do it, see if cutting out points doesn't help. ----- Bill Squier (groo) Amiga : uunet!tronsbox!dsoft!chsdip!groo (best) `Only Amiga!' VAX : uunet!vaxb.stevens-tech.edu!u93_wsquier