scream@brahms.udel.edu (Darren Amato) (11/30/90)
I know that this topic has been hacked over and over again, And I'm not one to "beat a dead horse" but, There is NO WAY that the Amiga 3000 is a better or more flexible computer than the Next. I just came from a Next presentation on campus and WOW! The only thing that the Amiga 3000 has over the new Next system is color. scream
new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) (11/30/90)
In article <16321@brahms.udel.edu> scream@brahms.udel.edu (Darren Amato) writes: >The only thing that the Amiga 3000 has over the new Next system is >color. And there is a new color board with 4 bits of alpha, 4 red, 4 green, and 4 blue, so it even beats standard Amiga graphics modes. I just saw a demo too. Wow. -- Darren -- --- Darren New --- Grad Student --- CIS --- Univ. of Delaware --- ----- Network Protocols, Graphics, Programming Languages, Formal Description Techniques (esp. Estelle), Coffee, Amigas ----- =+=+=+ Let GROPE be an N-tuple where ... +=+=+=
jeremym@chopin.udel.edu (Jeremy A Moskowitz) (11/30/90)
Yeah.. they were here yesterday, and for about an hour I
sat down and played with one. I was ready to dump-o my 2000
and go NeXT. The things that can do is *OUTRAGSOUS!*
I really wish the Amiga could be made that sweete! (hint hint
dave haynie!)
The selectable items on the righthand side, the menus popping up
at the touch of a right mouse key (i know this can be done
with hacks and crap but I want it built
in)
The optical drive kicks *ASS* and the unix operating system directly
linking with applications is excellent. I was in Next's unix...
(which was sinply two next's hooked together for effect)
and I typed a wrong command that I thought would format text
or whatever.. and "Word Perfect" sprung up. Get it? It's
built in Next! is built into it's own Unix operating system.
I didn't notice any speeding Next's though.. Ithink these
were the (winpy) 68030 models.. if it was an '040 I wouldn't
have seen "Please Wait..." three times. It just woulda done it.
Lip service thru networking ROCKS - I thought this would be a
useless feature.. unil my mind stoped saying AMIGA! ONLY!
and thought about potential... it's really great having
everything so well organized.
And it's not that amiga cannot do this. I'd say that a 2000
is 50% of a next...a gvp 3001 board would bring it up
to 60%. Then you need unix, (good, not shotty) networking
both twisted and line LAN's, and Lip Service. The
flicker of Ami's applications must go bye-bye.. it
wont hack it. Postscript support in all programs, is
obviously a must - c'mon commodore - I thought we
were tops until THIS!
That'll bring it up to 90%... now SPEED and integration
of all packages will do it. I think their music and graphics
are on the same format.. (or if they're not... they should
have been .. I think it's a good idea)
Our Amiga's IFF format died centuries ago...We need a format
that explicedly allows for direct postcript printing. Yeesh...
Amiga was never Like Next.
The only thing I can thig of that my Amiga has over the Next is:
1) Price - big schwoop... if you're gonna pay 2000 for a 2000
might as well pay 3000 for a next
2) Software - no comparison
- I have 1,000 disks and there's
no way Next has more than 200 packages
(I have their book, I know)
3) I have an Optical Mouse, and they don't! Ha!
Also, their MIDI is shotty (worthless, morelikely)
but, at least once it's in there, it can be postscripted....
Also, the next can hook up to AppleTalk (3rd party boards..)
but...we cant, yet. Amiga is losing out. We *HAD* the edge in 1984.
What happening for the 1990's?
--
E Pluribus // Contacts: jeremym@brahms.udel.edu or jeremym@chopin.udel.edu or
Unix // jeremy@freezer.it.udel.edu or jeremy@vax1.udel.edu
\\ // (line 1 = jeremym) (line 2 = jeremy)
\X/ 2001 Dalmations - My stars, its full of dogs...davids@ucscf.UCSC.EDU (Dave Schreiber) (11/30/90)
In article <16321@brahms.udel.edu> scream@brahms.udel.edu (Darren Amato) writes: >I know that this topic has been hacked over and over again, And I'm not >one to "beat a dead horse" but, There is NO WAY that the Amiga 3000 is >a better or more flexible computer than the Next. > >I just came from a Next presentation on campus and WOW! > >The only thing that the Amiga 3000 has over the new Next system is >color. > > > scream Flame fodder :-) from the Amiga 3000UX "Short Take" in the Dec. Byte: "...when you put it [an A3000UX] beside a NeXT or a Macintosh or a 386 workstation, the differences are in favor of the Amiga." Personally, I think the NeXT's a really neat machine, with a lot of good ideas that should be incorporated into the Amiga (many of which have been in Kickstart 2.0 & Amiga Unix). As to whether it is "better" that's something that has to be decided by the purchaser. For me, I'd have to say that my A3000 is better because it satisfies my computing needs better than a NeXT could, and at a lower cost. Followups directed to alt.religion.computers, where they belong (well, hopefully; I've never redirected followups before, and I'm not 100% sure that I got it right). -- Dave Schreiber davids@slugmail.ucsc.edu or (but not both) davids@ucscb.ucsc.edu "It was fun learning about logic, but I don't see where or when I will ever use it again."
cbdougla@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Collin Broad Douglas) (11/30/90)
In article <16321@brahms.udel.edu> scream@brahms.udel.edu (Darren Amato) writes: >I know that this topic has been hacked over and over again, And I'm not >one to "beat a dead horse" but, There is NO WAY that the Amiga 3000 is >a better or more flexible computer than the Next. > >I just came from a Next presentation on campus and WOW! > >The only thing that the Amiga 3000 has over the new Next system is >color. > > > scream take a look at the Amiga 3000 ux. A magazine article said it came with 8 megs of RAM, a 100 meg HD, Unix (real unix like the NeXT) a 25 Mhz 68030, two C compilers and other stuff (I think a mono monitor) for $4000. The NeXT and the Amiga are definetly the top two in price performance. -- Collin Douglas | "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt | and uncertainty." cbdougla@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | America Online: CollinD | -Douglas Adams from Hitchhiker's Guide
griff@anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith) (11/30/90)
[ stuff deleted ] > take a look at the Amiga 3000 ux. A magazine article said it came with 8 > megs of RAM, a 100 meg HD, Unix (real unix like the NeXT) a 25 Mhz 68030, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No, Real UNIX - you know, AT&T authorized - not Mach - a unix-like clone. Mach is NOT UNIX! > two C compilers and other stuff (I think a mono monitor) for $4000. ^^^^^ gee, for that I can get 4 amiga systems (ok, they're 500's...:-) or 2 Amiga Systems with a network. Or 1 Amiga and a Cheap Car..... > > The NeXT and the Amiga are definetly the top two in price performance. 1. If Jobs ever decides to drop his prices. 2. If Postscript interpeted screens ever start *really* screaming... > > > -- > Collin Douglas | "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt > | and uncertainty." > cbdougla@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | > America Online: CollinD | -Douglas Adams from Hitchhiker's Guide :Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore. :griff@anvil.hf.intel.com :SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir :These are MY opinions, if iNTEL wanted them, They'd pay for `em!
kws1x@dale.acc.Virginia.EDU (Kenneth W. Smith Jr) (12/01/90)
Yeah, but who wants to buy a NeXT with a 105M hard drive and have 80M of that taken up with the operating system? :) At least that's what the NeXT rep here said. I have seen the NeXT (sans color), and now I would like to see A3000UX in person. My choice would probably still be Amiga. Seen any NeXT ftp cites lately? :) K W Smith, Jr. The Charlottesvile Sector +--------------------------------------------------------+ | "But it's only a toilet seat!" | | "Oh, no. It is much more. It is a means | | to summon us!" | | -Quotes from Clive Barker's little | | known film: "LIDRAISER" | +--------------------------------------------------------+
geff@iastate.edu (Underwood Geoffrey Dale) (12/01/90)
In article <1990Nov30.154227.10380@intelhf.hf.intel.com> griff@anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith) writes: >[ stuff deleted ] >> take a look at the Amiga 3000 ux. A magazine article said it came with 8 >> megs of RAM, a 100 meg HD, Unix (real unix like the NeXT) a 25 Mhz 68030, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No, Real UNIX - >you know, AT&T authorized - not Mach - a unix-like clone. Mach is NOT UNIX! Mach isn't UNIX, true. In fact, it isn't _any_ operating system. UNIX has a filesystem. Mach does not. Mach is _part_ of NeXT's UNIX, and NeXT's whole UNIX does indeed use AT&T code. If you really want to, you can program the NeXT as if it were just another 68040 box running 4.3BSD. Anybody who does this is ignoring some of the main advantages of the NeXT, but it is possible. >> two C compilers and other stuff (I think a mono monitor) for $4000. > ^^^^^ >gee, for that I can get 4 amiga systems (ok, they're 500's...:-) If an Amiga 500 can do the job, then it is wasteful to buy a NeXT. If an Amiga 500 can do the job, then it is wasteful to buy an Amiga 3000. If an Amiga 500 can do the job, then it is wasteful to buy a Cray Y-MP. So what? Has somebody claimed otherwise? >> The NeXT and the Amiga are definetly the top two in price performance. > 1. If Jobs ever decides to drop his prices. Drop his prices? If you compare list price to list price, or educational discount to educational discount, the 68040 NeXTstation and the 68030 Amiga 3000 are already in the same range. At some schools (and maybe list price; I've forgotten the precise list prices), the NeXT is actually _cheaper_! > 2. If Postscript interpeted screens ever start *really* screaming... How much speed do you need? If the NeXTdimension board's i860 isn't fast enough for the task at hand, then neither is the Amiga's chipset. >> >> >> -- >> Collin Douglas | "We demand rigidly defined areas >of doubt >> | and uncertainty." >> cbdougla@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | >> America Online: CollinD | -Douglas Adams from Hitchhiker's Guide > >:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore. >:griff@anvil.hf.intel.com >:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir >:These are MY opinions, if iNTEL wanted them, They'd pay for `em! Geff Underwood geff@iastate.edu
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (12/01/90)
Don't forget the cost/performance ratio, in which the Amiga 3000 will truly outshine the NeXT. Oh, do a postscript laser file dump. What your multitasking ability on that NeXT drop as it does all the postcript internally. And then there's the December '90 Byte article which says that the 3000UX easily outperforms the Mac II, the NeXT, and a 386 at Unix. k -- John M. Adams --**-- Professional Student on the eight-year plan! /// Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu -or- vladimir@maple.circa.ufl.edu /// "We'll always be together, together in electric dreams" Moroder & Oakey \\V// Sysop of The Beachside. FIDOnet 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (12/01/90)
In article <16321@brahms.udel.edu> scream@brahms.udel.edu (Darren Amato) writes: >I know that this topic has been hacked over and over again, And I'm not >one to "beat a dead horse" but, There is NO WAY that the Amiga 3000 is >a better or more flexible computer than the Next. > >I just came from a Next presentation on campus and WOW! > >The only thing that the Amiga 3000 has over the new Next system is >color. > > Please don't consider this a flame. Presentations are very different from actual work. A NeXT owner may well be similarly swayed by a skilled demonstrator showing off a high-end Amiga (say, with the Toaster). I agree, the NeXT is a fascinating machine; lots of innovation. But I'm not sure what will become of it. The OS takes up an unacceptable amount of system bandwidth for many uses, though definitely not all or even most, and the UNIX industry is standardizing. SEveral professionals have indicated preference for SVR4, which brought up the names Sun and (yes) Amiga. And for non-UNIX applications, AMigaDOS will scream--a lot less bandwidth gets gobbled by the OS. It does strike me ever so often that a 68030 Amiga can outrun the devil himself while a 68030 NeXT limps along and says "just wait for the '040". But by all means get what you like the most and can do best with. But one well-done presentation doesn't make the machine. > scream -- ---- Thom Cleland "It is easier tcleland@ucsd.edu to get forgiveness Amiga User's Group at UCSD than permission"
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (12/02/90)
In article <1990Nov30.191229.4301@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> kws1x@dale.acc.Virginia.EDU (Kenneth W. Smith Jr) writes: > >Yeah, but who wants to buy a NeXT with a 105M hard drive and have 80M of >that taken up with the operating system? :) At least that's what the >NeXT rep here said. And that doesn't even include everything. You need a bigger drive to get everything that is included with the system, although I hardly look at this as something bad.... I think it's good that they give you so many goodies. >I have seen the NeXT (sans color), and now I would like to see A3000UX in >person. My choice would probably still be Amiga. Seen any NeXT ftp cites >lately? :) Try cs.orst.edu. They've got a whole slew of NeXT stuff there. Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.eecs.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240 Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) (12/02/90)
Don't want to flame, I like all computers (grin). But don't you think you would get bored of the NEXT's software real quick? I mean when I was younger, I always loved to play LIFE at my aunts house. But when I got my own LIFE game, after about 10 games, it was old. From what I hear the NEXT software is a little limited at the time. Most of what you can get comes with it? Remember, the vic 20 looked like a big leap over the timex sinclair 2000. But both are dead machines now. haha. Byron
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (12/02/90)
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) in <25671@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>
writes:
[...]
And then there's the December '90 Byte article which says that
the 3000UX easily outperforms the Mac II, the NeXT, and a 386
at Unix.
This is NOT meant as a poke at John, it's just that his posting reminds me
of what I've seen too often:
When BYTE magazine either ignores or comments only "en passant" re: the Amiga,
BYTE is perceived by the Amiga community as being lower than whale turds.
When BYTE magazine publishes a noteworthy comment re: the Amiga, BYTE suddenly
becomes "THE WORD, THE TRUTH, THE GUIDING LIGHT TO ALL KNOWLEDGE."
You figure. :-)
Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/03/90)
>> And then there's the December '90 Byte article which says that >> the 3000UX easily outperforms the Mac II, the NeXT, and a 386 at Unix. > > This is NOT meant as a poke at John, it's just that his posting reminds > me of what I've seen too often: When BYTE magazine either ignores or > comments only "en passant" re: the Amiga, BYTE is perceived by the Amiga > community as being lower than whale turds. When BYTE magazine publishes > a noteworthy comment re: the Amiga, BYTE suddenly becomes "THE WORD, > THE TRUTH, THE GUIDING LIGHT TO ALL KNOWLEDGE." You figure. :-) Gee, I'm glad _you_ said that! <hehe> But yes, I betcha that a lot of readers were thinking the very same thing. It reminds me of another computer fanatic quirk we all often see (and do). Does this look familiar? Person #1: "Ah yes, I bought my XXX because it had this and that, which no other computer had at the time! I sought out and found the hottest technology around, and that makes me smarter than most dudes." Person #2: "Hey, have you heard about the YYY, which has those things plus it also has...." Person #1: "Stop, stop! <clapping hands to ears> I have too much invested in my XXX now to hear about other brands! I refuse to listen, because my personal search for excellence ceased when I spent $$ on XXX." (Ain't consumerism great? :-) kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu (kevin)
a143@mindlink.UUCP (Ed Meyer) (12/03/90)
> jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu writes: > > Msg-ID: <25701@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> > Posted: 3 Dec 90 06:46:38 GMT > > Org. : UF CIS Department > Person: John 'Vlad' Adams > > No poke taken. I agree, there is a duality in the Amiga World vs. Byte. > In that same Byte, the video section (especially pp. 289-290) completely > ignores the Video Toaster. I love them when they mention the Amiga, but > hate them that they aren't consistant. At least they mention the Amiga > period compared to PC Week. > -- > John M. Adams --**-- Professional Student on the eight-year plan! /// > Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu -or- vladimir@maple.circa.ufl.edu /// > "We'll always be together, together in electric dreams" Moroder & Oakey \\V// > Sysop of The Beachside. FIDOnet 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/ John, I used to subscribe to Blyte but decided that I would vote with my money: I stopped buying it; when I need to buy a PC Magazine, I buy anyone else's but I consciously don't touch Blyte except for specific articles like their announcement of the A3000 :-) It's one small step for this man. Cheers.
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (12/03/90)
No poke taken. I agree, there is a duality in the Amiga World vs. Byte. In that same Byte, the video section (especially pp. 289-290) completely ignores the Video Toaster. I love them when they mention the Amiga, but hate them that they aren't consistant. At least they mention the Amiga period compared to PC Week. -- John M. Adams --**-- Professional Student on the eight-year plan! /// Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu -or- vladimir@maple.circa.ufl.edu /// "We'll always be together, together in electric dreams" Moroder & Oakey \\V// Sysop of The Beachside. FIDOnet 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (12/03/90)
> [...] > And then there's the December '90 Byte article which says that > the 3000UX easily outperforms the Mac II, the NeXT, and a 386 > at Unix. > >When BYTE magazine either ignores or comments only "en passant" re: the Amiga, >BYTE is perceived by the Amiga community as being lower than whale turds. > >When BYTE magazine publishes a noteworthy comment re: the Amiga, BYTE suddenly >becomes "THE WORD, THE TRUTH, THE GUIDING LIGHT TO ALL KNOWLEDGE." > >You figure. :-) > Figuring... BYTE speaks for the _I_ndustry, no mystery why Amigaphiles crave Amiga coverage within its pages. Every word about the Amiga in BYTE brings a little more discomfort to those who would happily write the Amiga off as less than it is. It's a good rag, I gues I'd say that *when they say anything it is usually reasonably fair and accurate* (even if they bend over backwards to avoid soiling their reputation in the prejudiced eyes of others). It's the ignoring, the brushing-off that gets me. If BYTGE published an article critical of this or that Amiga product that'd be great (even if I disagreed). The worst is being not even considered significant. So I guess I don't find the Amiga attitude towards BYTE too contradictory. BTW, the word and the truth was revealed in December's BYTE, page 132... ;^) >Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ] Delighted. -- ---- Thom Cleland "It is easier tcleland@ucsd.edu to get forgiveness Amiga User's Group at UCSD than permission"
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/04/90)
Several people have mentioned the Byte article which compared the Amiga favorably to the NeXT in terms of performance. I chatted with Ben Smith, the author of the article, on BIX and he admits that he was comparing the yet-to-be-released Amiga 3000ux with the out-of-production 030 NeXTs. The article was very misleading in that it gave the impression that he was talking about the 030 and 040 NeXTs. But he was not. At any rate, the new 040 NeXTs have started shipping and the machine is damn fast. It is in an entirely different class, performance-wise, than the Amiga 3000ux.
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/04/90)
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John "Vlad" Adams" writes: >Don't forget the cost/performance, in which the Amiga 3000 will truly >outshine the NeXT. I assume you refer to the Amiga 3000ux. It has not yet been released and cannot hold a candle to the already-shipping 040 NeXTs in terms of price/performance. An Amiga 3000ux will crank out 5 Mips. The 040 NeXTs crank out 15-20 Mips (both sets of figures are from Motorola). The 040 NeXTs do nearly 3 MFLOPS, the floating point coprocessor on the Amiga 3000ux will be lucky to approach 1 MFLOP. { As for issues like PostScript overhead. PostScript is floating-point intensive and this issue has been well-addressed by the large improvement in FPU speed. Printing also has been assigned a lower priority as a background task on the new NeXTs. The $4000 price quoted in Byte for the Amiga 3000ux is apparently for developers/educational buyers from what I can gather from other threads in this newsgroup. A new NeXT will cost a developer $3500 and an educational buyer $3000-$3500.
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/04/90)
In <21929@well.sf.ca.us>, yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >Several people have mentioned the Byte article which compared the Amiga >favorably to the NeXT in terms of performance. I chatted with Ben Smith, >the author of the article, on BIX and he admits that he was comparing the >yet-to-be-released Amiga 3000ux with the out-of-production 030 NeXTs. >The article was very misleading in that it gave the impression that he >was talking about the 030 and 040 NeXTs. But he was not. I certainly didn't get that impression. As far as I knew, there was ONLY a 68030 NeXT, and a soon to be released NexTStation. There was nothing in the article to indicate that the comparison was to anything but a NeXT. -larry -- The only things to survive a nuclear war will be cockroaches and IBM PCs. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (12/04/90)
In article <21930@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John "Vlad" Adams" writes: >>Don't forget the cost/performance, in which the Amiga 3000 will truly >>outshine the NeXT. > >I assume you refer to the Amiga 3000ux. It has not yet been released and >cannot hold a candle to the already-shipping 040 NeXTs in terms of >price/performance. > >An Amiga 3000ux will crank out 5 Mips. The 040 NeXTs crank out 15-20 Mips >(both sets of figures are from Motorola). The 040 NeXTs do nearly 3 MFLOPS, >the floating point coprocessor on the Amiga 3000ux will be lucky to approach >1 MFLOP. { This comparison is very silly. You know as well as I do that a 68040 board for the A3000 will be out almost as soon as NeXT machines get into full production. Both NeXT and Commodore (and I think PP&S) are waiting for Motorola to catch up in shipments. Yes, NeXT will be getting priority, but NeXT isn't ordering all that many either. > >As for issues like PostScript overhead. PostScript is floating-point intensive >and this issue has been well-addressed by the large improvement in FPU >speed. Printing also has been assigned a lower priority as a background >task on the new NeXTs. That doesn't fix the problem. Its just a trade off. So the computer doesn't slow down as much but the job takes longer to print. Besides, you could've done that before as well, with a little knowledge of Unix. > >The $4000 price quoted in Byte for the Amiga 3000ux is apparently for >developers/educational buyers from what I can gather from other threads in >this newsgroup. A new NeXT will cost a developer $3500 and an educational >buyer $3000-$3500. It is true that the NeXT has everyone beat in terms of price. -- Ethan Woody Allen on Los Angeles: "I mean, who would want to live in a place where the only cultural advantage is that you can turn right on a red light?"
fmcphers@VTTCF.CC.VT.EDU (Frank McPherson) (12/04/90)
In a recent comp.sys.amiga.whatever article, a non-.sig-using entity from the "Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link" states:: >An Amiga 3000ux will crank out 5 Mips. The 040 NeXTs crank out 15-20 Mips >(both sets of figures are from Motorola). The 040 NeXTs do nearly 3 MFLOPS, >the floating point coprocessor on the Amiga 3000ux will be luck to approach >1 MFLOP. I almost feel bad about getting in to this obvious "my-computer-beats-your- computer" thread, but not quite. (I don't feel bad enough about it not to get in to it) You say that the 3000ux will "crank out 5 mips", then say the 040 NeXT will "crank out 15-20". Figures courtesy of Motorola, you say. I have no reason to doubt you, so I won't say anything about that, except for being interested in how such an answer was arrived at. I do, however, take exception to the assertions concerning the MFLOPS of both machines. "nearly 3" and "will be lucky to approach 1" isn't precise enough for this arguement. They suggest that you don't know for sure, you're just pulling out some numbers which sound nice. Don't post something you can't quote with better references, especially if you're knocking a computer in its' home newsgroup. You're going to get flamed. Now, if you'd post real numbers along with their sources, that wouldn't be quite so bad.... -- Frank McPherson INTERNET: fmcphers@vttcf.cc.vt.edu --
MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (12/04/90)
In article <21929@well.sf.ca.us>, yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) says: > [how the '040 NeXTs are stupendously faster than an A3000] Please note that the A3000 uses a 68030 chip, while the NeXT uses the (still-in-debugging-phase) 68040 chip; therefore by definition the NeXT is faster. It's like comparing a 68020-equipped Amiga to one with a stock 68000. If you were to drop the 68040 into an Amiga it would very likely leave the new NeXT in the dust. Commodore might know how such an experiment would turn out, but they're not telling... Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see an A3000/40 debut in the next few months. "NeXT is Lisa spelled sideways." -- The Bandito /Mark "Remixed for Common Household Appliances" Sachs - MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu\ |DISCLAIMER? You've GOT to be kidding, right? || // AMIGA || | | "Haven't they heard we won the war? || \X/ Power || | \== "What do they keep on fighting for?" -- B. Joel, LENINGRAD =============/
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/04/90)
This is a pre-emptive posting. I've received some e-mail since I posted the fact that the Amiga 3000ux does not match the performance of the new NeXTs and I want to address the major point made in that e-mail before people begin posting the same stuff here. People complained that it is not fair to compare a an 040 NeXT to an 030 Amiga 3000ux. I agree, but not for the reason you may think. The comparison is not fair because the Amiga 3000ux is vaporware, while the 040 NeXTs have shipped. Thus, a NeXT is available today that is much faster than a promised, but not yet even announced, Amiga 3000ux (if we're to believe what Motorola says about the comparative speeds of their 030 and 040s). Yes, there will eventually be an 040 Amiga. But at what price and when? Kind of seems senseless speculating about this when we don't even know the retail price and release date of the 030 Amiga 3000ux! .
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/04/90)
kws1x@dale.acc.virginia.EDU (Kenneth W. Smith, Jr.): >Yeah, but who wants to buy a NeXT with a 105 MB hard drive and have 80M >of that taken up with the operating system? :) Good thing you put the smiley there. The NeXT operating system takes 30-40 MB. You get another 40 MB of free software, much of it commercial quality, on the 105 MB disk. If you buy the 340 MB hard disk version, you get nearly 200 MB of bundled software. This software includes WriteNow, Mathematica, Interface Builder (the BEST reason to buy a NeXT), TeX, multimedia Mail, Digital Librarian, Webster, DataViz/Bridge, etc. If you order a NeXT or an 040 upgrade before the end of the year, you also get a free copy of Lotus's Improv, an amazing spreadsheet (see October Byte). Now, how much free software (excluding the OS) comes on an Amiga hard disk?
fmcphers@VTTCF.CC.VT.EDU (Frank McPherson) (12/04/90)
Once again, the gentleman from the Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link has something
to say:
>the comparison is not fair because the Amiga 3000ux is vaporware
I'm sorry, but that's not true. I'm typing this on one.
-- Frank McPherson INTERNET: fmcphers@vttcf.cc.vt.edu --cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (12/05/90)
Compare NeXTs to Amigas, fine. Don't compare 030 machines to 040 machines and expect to be surprised. Amiga 3000UXs beat on 68030 NeXTs. 68040 NeXTs beat on 68030 Amigas. What one forgets is that the Amiga 3000 is all ready to accept the 040. It is my understanding that the A3000 was designed to optimize the 68040, and the '030 is there mainly because it exists and the 68040 didn't. Regardless, there are three 040 boards ready to plug and play and a motherboard 040 will not be far behind, for Amiga. Then compare 040 Amiga 3000UXs to 040 NeXTs, and see which ahs an advantage. Anything else is kinda stupid. Recognized: if you can get an 040 NeXT in your local grocer's today, then NeXT has the advantage in release date. This is the wrong place to be attempting to "snow" people by insinuating that Amigas are toys and NeXTs are machines right off the bridge of Star Trek. Not only is c.s.a. a relatively computer-literate and well-informed newsgroup, we also know quite a bit about the Amiga. IMHO... Thom -- ---- Thom Cleland "It is easier tcleland@ucsd.edu to get forgiveness Amiga User's Group at UCSD than permission"
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (12/05/90)
In article <21941@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > >People complained that it is not fair to compare a an 040 NeXT to an 030 >Amiga 3000ux. I agree, but not for the reason you may think. The comparison >is not fair because the Amiga 3000ux is vaporware, while the 040 NeXTs have >shipped. Thus, a NeXT is available today that is much faster than a >promised, but not yet even announced, Amiga 3000ux (if we're to believe >what Motorola says about the comparative speeds of their 030 and 040s). > Incorrect. I still cannot order a 68040 NeXT at my local computer dealer (U. bookstore). I assume they won't be long, as the 68040 has just this week begun to ship. I wonder how a 68040 machine could be shipping when teh 68040 itself was not? The 3000UX is not quite vaporware. It is only available at present to universities, developers, and corporations under special auspices. It's formal announcement and general availability is pending, this is true. I've said before "hurrah for NeXT for being first to ship 040s and hurrah for being blasphemously cheap in its attempt to gain a habitable market share." But the window of time we are discussing is not really significant for the Unix market--if it takes two more months for something that suits ones needs significantly more, they'll wait. Six months, probably not. IMHO... -- ---- Thom Cleland "It is easier tcleland@ucsd.edu to get forgiveness Amiga User's Group at UCSD than permission"
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (12/05/90)
In article <21945@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >kws1x@dale.acc.virginia.EDU (Kenneth W. Smith, Jr.): >>Yeah, but who wants to buy a NeXT with a 105 MB hard drive and have 80M >>of that taken up with the operating system? :) > >Good thing you put the smiley there. The NeXT operating system takes 30-40 >MB. You get another 40 MB of free software, much of it commercial quality, >on the 105 MB disk. If you buy the 340 MB hard disk version, you get nearly >200 MB of bundled software. This software includes WriteNow, Mathematica, >Interface Builder (the BEST reason to buy a NeXT), TeX, multimedia Mail, >Digital Librarian, Webster, DataViz/Bridge, etc. If you order a NeXT or >an 040 upgrade before the end of the year, you also get a free copy of >Lotus's Improv, an amazing spreadsheet (see October Byte). > >Now, how much free software (excluding the OS) comes on an Amiga hard disk? Actually, the word over here is that the slab isn't going to be shipping with so much software included. Mathematica is supposed to be gone, for instance. I'll check up on this and report to the net (just for the sake of our comrades' veracity... :^)) -- ---- Thom Cleland "It is easier tcleland@ucsd.edu to get forgiveness Amiga User's Group at UCSD than permission"
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/05/90)
fmcphers@VTTCF.CC.VT.EDU (Frank McPherson) writes: >In a recent comp.sys.amiga.whatever article, a non-.sig-using entity from the >"Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link" states:: >>An Amiga 3000ux will crank out 5 Mips. The 040 NeXTs crank out 15-20 Mips Don't have a sig yet. But I have a name, its Young-Kyu Yoo. > You say that the 3000ux will "crank out 5 mips", then say the 040 NeXT >will "crank out 15-20". Figures courtesy of Motorola, you say. I have no >reason to doubt you, so I won't say anything about that, except for being >interested in how such an answer was arrived at. Don't ask me. I let the big boys do the benchmarks. At any rate, those are Motorola figures. And several Unix experts have done their own benchmarks (check out the NeXT newsgroup for details) and they confirm that the 040 is three to four times faster than the 030. > I do, however, take exception to the assertions concerning the >MFLOPS of both machines. "nearly 3" and "will be lucky to approach 1" isn't >precise enough for this arguement. They suggest that you don't know for sure, >you're just pulling out some numbers which sound nice. Don't post something >you can't quote with better references, especially if you're knocking a >computer in its' home newsgroup. You're going to get flamed. Now, if you'd >post real numbers along with their sources, that wouldn't be quite so bad.... I didn't want to bore you with the details. Motorola claims 2.8 MFLOPs for their FPU (which is built into the main processor). Home-grown benchmarks done by several in the NeXT newsgroup get numbers from 2.5 to 3.3 MFLOPs. I assume the math coprocessor on the Amiga 3000ux is Motorola's 68882. 68882 performs at less than 1 Mip. If you have any info to contradict this, please state it. My question: Why attack my numbers without numbers of your own?
specter@disk.UUCP (Byron Max Guernsey) (12/05/90)
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >When BYTE magazine either ignores or comments only "en passant" re: the Amiga, >BYTE is perceived by the Amiga community as being lower than whale turds. >When BYTE magazine publishes a noteworthy comment re: the Amiga, BYTE suddenly >becomes "THE WORD, THE TRUTH, THE GUIDING LIGHT TO ALL KNOWLEDGE." >You figure. :-) >Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ] Perhaps it is because when BYTE does mention amiga it is considered SPECIAL. Byron
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/05/90)
To all those who have said that the NeXT software selection is limited. Get a NeXT. You will be pleasantly surprised at what's already out there in terms of software, both commercial and freeware/shareware. There are already more than a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT software. The ones at Purdue, Oregon State, and Maryland seem to be the most popular. What is there already for the NeXT is already some of best in category across all comparable hardware platforms. NeXT software often surpasses Mac software in ease-of-use and is simply more powerful than Mac, PC, or current Amiga software (it's amazing what a software developer will do when he knows that the minimum hardware configuration he needs to support is 8 MB RAM, plus virtual memory, and at many more megabytes of hard disk space.). The future of NeXT software is very bright. Revolutionary product like Lotus's Improv (check out October Byte) are coming out. And the NeXT is a software developer's dream in terms of ease-of-programming, the capability to build incredible interfaces, and speed of programming. Please don't feel obliged to flame me for this all-NeXT posting. I am merely responding to several anti-NeXT postings on these very issues in this thread.
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/05/90)
>I wouldn't be surprised to see an A3000/40 debut in the next few months.
Don't jump the gun. The A3000/30 hasn't officialy debuted yet. Yes, the
machine is available to education buyers/developers. But they haven't
finished the OS yet.
The other question is what price for power? The NeXT gives you the 040,
plus everything else, for $3000-$3500 if you're a educational buyer.
Commodore promises an 030 Amiga 3000ux for $4000 to students. Do you
really believe that Commodore will give you an 040 Amiga for the same
price??gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (12/05/90)
In article <21968@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >fmcphers@VTTCF.CC.VT.EDU (Frank McPherson) writes: >> You say that the 3000ux will "crank out 5 mips", then say the 040 NeXT >>will "crank out 15-20". Figures courtesy of Motorola, you say. I have no >>reason to doubt you, so I won't say anything about that, except for being >>interested in how such an answer was arrived at. These were probably dhrystone 2.1 derived results. A bad indicator of speed at best. >> I do, however, take exception to the assertions concerning the >>MFLOPS of both machines. "nearly 3" and "will be lucky to approach 1" isn't >>precise enough for this arguement. They suggest that you don't know for sure, >>you're just pulling out some numbers which sound nice. Don't post something Nope. This is pretty much accurate. Running things like ray-traces, FFTs, etc, as well as some of my own code, as well as the usual LINPACKs, Livermore Loops, etc indicates that the 040 ranges from 2.5 MFLOPs to 3.9 MFLOPs. The 882 at 25 MHz, on the other hand, gives figures from 0.075 MFLOPs to .453 MFLOPs. Even in primitive multiply/divide loops, I've been unable to beat .5 MFLOPs on an 882. All of this depends on the instruction mix that is used. With lots of transcendental stuff, the perf on both chips goes way down. With just arithmetic, the results are higher. >I assume the math coprocessor on the Amiga 3000ux is Motorola's 68882. >68882 performs at less than 1 Mip. If you have any info to contradict this, I'll guarantee you that the 882 is less than one MIP :) It is also less than .5 MFLOPs at 25 MHz. I haven't had the opportunity to benchmark a 50 MHz 882, but maybe later on today. See ya, Ralph Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (12/06/90)
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes:
< Several people have mentioned the Byte article which compared the Amiga
< favorably to the NeXT in terms of performance. I chatted with Ben Smith,
< the author of the article, on BIX and he admits that he was comparing the
< yet-to-be-released Amiga 3000ux with the out-of-production 030 NeXTs.
< The article was very misleading in that it gave the impression that he
< was talking about the 030 and 040 NeXTs. But he was not.
<
< At any rate, the new 040 NeXTs have started shipping and the machine is
< damn fast. It is in an entirely different class, performance-wise, than
< the Amiga 3000ux.
While this may very well be true, it does not belong in this newsgroup.
A quick scan of the Newsgroups: line indicates that this is
comp.sys.amiga, not comp.sys.next or alt.religion.computers. The
argument that this discussion is 'important' or 'productive' is
non sequitur.
The purpose of this newsgroup is the discussion of the Amiga and its
uses. It is not a forum for people to ridicule Amiga owners for
lacking the foresight to abandon their Amigas in favor of the NeXT, or
any other brand of computer. If you wish to discuss the relative
strengths and weaknesses of the NeXT, then please do so, but do it in
comp.sys.next.
Regards,
Chris
--
Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ___-/^\-___
cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | //__--\O/--__\\ nI' yIyIn 'ej yIchep.
...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | // \\
The Home of the Killer Smiley | `\ /'kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) (12/06/90)
In article <25671@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) writes: >Don't forget the cost/performance ratio, in which the Amiga 3000 will >truly outshine the NeXT. Oh, do a postscript laser file dump. What >your multitasking ability on that NeXT drop as it does all the >postcript internally. > >And then there's the December '90 Byte article which says that >the 3000UX easily outperforms the Mac II, the NeXT, and a 386 >at Unix. For all you people that don't know. 1. NeXT does have real Unix, it uses a Mach kernal, AT&T Unix, BSD extensions. 2. I have seen a NeXTstation. It is fast. No way can a '030 machine outperform a '040 machine. The NeXTstation is equivalent Sparc 1+. The '030 Amiga is not. No matter what Byte says. The performance of the 25mHz '040 is at least 2 to 3 times that of a 330mHz '030. 3. NeXT fitted all the later '030 cubes w/a 40meg drive for swapping. It also retrofitted a lot of the original cubes (optical only) with the drives also. 4. Cost/performance the Next is still better. You will have to add add a larger HD to both 100 meg is definitely not enough for Unix. You are going to need 3 times that. 5. Run X11 on the Amiga and compare that to the '040 NeXT. The winner will be NeXT. '030 does not equal '040 when it comes to a complicated GUI like X11 or NeXTstep. 6. And above all you have to compare the '040 NeXT to the 3000UX because a '030 NeXT is no longer sold except as a clearance item >k >-- >John M. Adams --**-- Professional Student on the eight-year plan! /// >Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu -or- vladimir@maple.circa.ufl.edu /// >"We'll always be together, together in electric dreams" Moroder & Oakey \\V// >Sysop of The Beachside. FIDOnet 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/ -- /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/06/90)
In <86586@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>, mitroo@python.cis.ohio-state.edu (varun mitroo) writes: >In article <21969@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > >>To all those who have said that the NeXT software selection is limited. >>Get a NeXT. You will be pleasantly surprised at what's already out there >>in terms of software, both commercial and freeware/shareware. There are >>already more than a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT software. The ones at >>Purdue, Oregon State, and Maryland seem to be the most popular. >> >Here's something I bet not too many people have done with their amigas: >Last week, I took a blank optical disk (from my cube at home) to one of the >NeXTs located on campus. From there I ftped (is there such a verb?) to a >NeXT site and downloaded everything from the /bin directory and whatever else >I wanted - in total about 30 megs of stuff - onto my optical disk. Before I >took out my optical drive, I decided to check how much of it was used up. >14% used. NeXT is not what you hear about on comp.sys.amiga. Try it out and >see. Not having an optical disk, I can't say that I have done that, but I have transferred large volumes of stuff from Suns to my Amiga using tape. No biggie. -larry -- The only things to survive a nuclear war will be cockroaches and IBM PCs. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
mitroo@python.cis.ohio-state.edu (varun mitroo) (12/06/90)
In article <21969@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >To all those who have said that the NeXT software selection is limited. >Get a NeXT. You will be pleasantly surprised at what's already out there >in terms of software, both commercial and freeware/shareware. There are >already more than a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT software. The ones at >Purdue, Oregon State, and Maryland seem to be the most popular. > Here's something I bet not too many people have done with their amigas: Last week, I took a blank optical disk (from my cube at home) to one of the NeXTs located on campus. From there I ftped (is there such a verb?) to a NeXT site and downloaded everything from the /bin directory and whatever else I wanted - in total about 30 megs of stuff - onto my optical disk. Before I took out my optical drive, I decided to check how much of it was used up. 14% used. NeXT is not what you hear about on comp.sys.amiga. Try it out and see. Varun Mitroo mitroo@cis.ohio-state.edu
dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (12/06/90)
You are correct in saying the Next runs at 15-20 MIPS ,etc and that the Amiga 3000 runs at only 5. You are correct in saying that the 68882 is going to be slower on the 3000 compared to the Next. You FAILED to mention that that info is based on a 68040 Next and a 68030 Amiga 3000! Guess what? A Next at 68030 is gonna have 5 MIPS! Why? It's all in the chips! Sure, the Next also beats the 68882! The 68040 has a built in coprocessor! IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, THE AMIGA 3000 HAS A FULL SOCKET When the 68040 is out, it should pop right in to where the 68030 was. When this happens, the Amiga 3000 will run at 15-20 MIPS, will not require the slow 68882, etc. Don't compare a 68030 with a 68040! You wanna argue some more? My Amiga 500 is way faster than my C64! How do I know this info? I have a spec file on the 68040. I will reprint it here if anyone is interested, and if I can figure out how to do it! The Amiga 3000 should have a socketed 68030, with extra pins for "future expansion". I take this to mean that they planned it to work with the 68040 and the 68030. The designers are sure to know. :) David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3605 AMIGA Toto Productions DDD Men
dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (12/06/90)
Again I hear how easy it is to develop on a Next...even easier than a MAC, easier than Amiga, IBM, and UNIX. WELL, I can sure say that learning to use UNIX is a big pain! They tell me I can multitask...sure, I can exit the program I am working on and blah blah blah... Nothing beats the Amiga as far as ease of USE. As far as ease of programming, I would suggest the Amiga ten thousand zillion times before a Mac or a NEXT! Why? Why do you go to school? To learn. Would you learn if everything was fed to you from a silver platter aka Next? I learned UNIX because I had exposure to the CLI of the Amiga. I think I am right in guessing that the CLI was modeled after UNIX. The Amiga let me learn programming slowly and at my own pace. When I didn't know CLI, I could still actually use my computer without wondering what the heck I was doing. On an IBM I would totally lost. On a Mac I would see no challenge. A person who develops on the Next will NEVER learn what makes the machine tick. He may as well still wear diapers. I no longer write window based software. I write CLI programs, then develop them into window based software. I write my brains out in CLI, let everyone use my program, and slowly adapt it to meet the window environment. I can only begin to imagine how limited the Next is in the development of creativity. Look at how easy the Mac is to use, and look at how boring and disgusting all of the menus and requesters are! (: - mutated happe face. David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3605 AMIGA Toto Productions DDD Men
laughlin@fornax.UUCP (Bob Laughlin) (12/06/90)
I compiled the MFLOPS test (a simple multiply loop) that was on comp.sys.next a few weeks ago on a 33mHz 68882 Amiga. It was compiled with Aztec 5.0d with the -so option (all optimizations) and -f8 (plus 68881/2 libraries). This was the test that the 040 NeXT got 3.3 MFLOPS on. The above Amiga came in at .23 MFLOPS. I believe the 030 NeXT was something like .25-.35 MFLOPS. The compiler could make a difference. -- Bob Laughlin laughlin@cs.sfu.ca
jon@chopin.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) (12/06/90)
In article <1990Dec5.195334.17986@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > WELL, I can sure say that learning to use UNIX is a big pain! They tell me >I can multitask...sure, I can exit the program I am working on and blah blah >blah... > Well, I (and I'm sure many others) tend to disagree with you. I don't think learning UNIX is a pain. And, at this stage of the standardization game, ANY micro supporting UNIX off-the-shelf has a big advantange over others because UNIX (for better OR for worse) is settling down! It is becoming the OS of choice NOT only for mainframes, but for micros too. If ONE OS is going to cover BOTH platforms so well, I should think it will be around for quite a while. > Nothing beats the Amiga as far as ease of USE. As far as ease of programming, >I would suggest the Amiga ten thousand zillion times before a Mac or a NEXT! >Why? > As far as programming what? Programming a user interface with the NeXT seems to be VERY intuitive and quick. As far as other misc. programs, C is C is C. It will be about as difficult (or as easy) on any machine. > Why do you go to school? To learn. Would you learn if everything was fed to >you from a silver platter aka Next? > Not everything is 'fed to you from a silver platter' on the NeXT. Building an interface is very simple on a NeXT. It is made to be easy in that respect. BUT, building a PROGRAM entails WRITING CODE. But, on the NeXT, if you write your code well, you can use it as a MODULE for other programs that might need it. Then again, this is true for MANY machines (including the Amiga), but this is the BASIS of the NeXT's design. > The Amiga let me learn programming slowly and at my own pace. When I >didn't know CLI, I could still actually use my computer without wondering >what the heck I was doing. On an IBM I would totally lost. On a Mac I would >see no challenge. A person who develops on the Next will NEVER learn what >makes the machine tick. He may as well still wear diapers. > The NeXT is very similar to the Amiga as far as OS versatility. There is a CLI (Amiga=AmigaDOS, NeXT=UNIX), and there is a window environment. On BOTH machines, you may either point-and-click till your heart's content, OR you may type commands until your fingers get numb. > I can only begin to imagine how limited the Next is in the development of >creativity. Look at how easy the Mac is to use, and look at how boring and >disgusting all of the menus and requesters are! (: - mutated happe face. > Are you bored of seeing that 'same old file requester' over and over again for EVERY program you have/write? Probably not. You just EXPECT IT because THAT'S the AMIGA. Well, the same with NeXT - There's a standard interfacing method that most developers are going to use, because it's there already! And, listen, I am an Amiga owner, and I think the machine is fantastic. It was the most revolutionary product (that I knew of) in the mid-80's. The problem is that C= has to keep some kinda compatability with the old Amy's when they develop new ones. This is a BIG hinderance because technology is moving SO FAST. The guys at NeXT don't have this problem! They started on an '030! They also started with all of the ideas that IBM/MAC/C= came up with so far! They have a BIG advantage. And they are also shooting for a slightly different market (kinda). I mean, their BOTTOM LINE machine is in the 3G range! That's NOT the range of the AMIGA. Let's stop comparing and just accept that the NeXT is a new machine with lots of innovation. It's not a kludge, it's designed well, it has many of the x-tras, and it's got a very nice price/performance ratio. Personally, I like it because it's black... X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X | | |\ |>jon@brahms.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, | | \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" | X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------X
smithwik@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (R. Michael Smithwick -- FSN) (12/06/90)
[]
Ok, ok, so I've been suckered into this thread.. . .
One basic issue that people are overlooking here is that the
Amiga 3000UX represents the top of the line in the Amiga family, the
lowest of which is the A500. The Nextstation is the bottom of the line
the highest which the NeXTDimension for about $14,000. The two families
are fundementally different approaching different markets. (most NeXT
software products cost more then an entire A500!).
The Amiga was designed as a consumer machine, and as such certain
comprimises were built in to keep the price down. The A3000UX still
is locked into these standards (limited colors, lower resolution, etc.)
at least until we can get 8-bit retargetable graphics. Frame buffers can
make up for part of this problem however.
When the Next was designed, Steve Jobs looked at what the future of computing
might be over the next 5 to 10 years and built a machine which would fit into
his future "vision". (something like shooting at a moving target, you need to
aim at where the target will be instead of where it is). Over time the
cost of the technology he incorporated will come down and become more
generally available.
How ever then is then and now is now. . .
When buying a NeXTStation, the smallest system, a user will likely become
dissatisfied rather quickly and wish to upgrade, adding color, a larger
drive and so on. All of which can easily cost $thousands due
to the small size of the market and underpriceing of the orginal hardware.
Kinda like buying a new car for only $3000, only to find out that it
really needs a new set of special tires which will run $1000 each. In
otherwords, the initial investment may be cheap, but in the long run it
can be quite costly. Afterall, if someone can afford $4000 on the BASE
machine, he/she can certainly afford 500 bucks for even the
most simple software packages.
Whereas with an Amiga (not just the A3000UX), practically all of the
software and hardware is written and priced for the consumer market.
Fine paint programs for 100 bucks, the toaster for $1600, genlocks for $150.
Need I say more?
And from a developer's standpoint the much larger market means the more people
will be able to enjoy his handiwork.
The NeXT is a classy machine. We have one in our lab. If I was to do
Unix development I would certainly choose it over the 3000UX. But if
I really wanted to get some practical use out of my investment, I would
never buy a NeXt. True, it comes with some of the "basics". Most of which
could really never be used unless you shelled out more bucks
for the laser printer. And I have yet to need
something like mathematica or the entire works of Shakespeare. Interface
Builder is slick, but only if you want to do Next apps, and then only if
you wanted to work in Objective C. (Don't tell me about networking printers
or fileservers. I am interested in a machine that is independent of the
outside world. Were I a student investing 4 or 5 thousand bucks in a box
which really needs a network to be useful, what will I do with it when
I graduate?).
So what is boils down to is that once the novelty and prestige of owning
a Next wears off, you have to start paying the bills. . .
(I still want one though :-)
Once I can get a next, new, with no special discount for <$2000, with
color and which doesn't need all sorts of expensive add ons to be
even marginally useful, then the Amiga will be in danger, until then,
I'm not too worried.
>> mike smithwick <<
Any opinions are my own since nobody else would ever want them.
"Colonize Cyberspace!"mitroo@python.cis.ohio-state.edu (varun mitroo) (12/06/90)
In article <1990Dec5.195334.17986@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > The Amiga let me learn programming slowly and at my own pace. When I >didn't know CLI, I could still actually use my computer without wondering >what the heck I was doing. On an IBM I would totally lost. On a Mac I would >see no challenge. A person who develops on the Next will NEVER learn what >makes the machine tick. He may as well still wear diapers. > Please. Other computers have different programming environments, some of them allow one to be much more productive than on an Amiga. For example, Turbo Pascal and Turbo C on PC have, in my opinion, the nicest programming environ. I have used. A lightning fast editor, good compiler, and power for those who need it (you can add routines in assembly). I defy any compiler to match the ease of use and productivity one can achieve using Turbo Pascal. I used to program in assembly on Apple II. Talk about total control of the system... Varun Mitroo mitroo@cis.ohio-state.edu
dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (12/06/90)
In article <86586@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> varun mitroo <mitroo@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: >In article <21969@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > >>To all those who have said that the NeXT software selection is limited. >>Get a NeXT. You will be pleasantly surprised at what's already out there >>in terms of software, both commercial and freeware/shareware. There are >>already more than a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT software. The ones at >>Purdue, Oregon State, and Maryland seem to be the most popular. >> >Here's something I bet not too many people have done with their amigas: >Last week, I took a blank optical disk (from my cube at home) to one of the >NeXTs located on campus. From there I ftped (is there such a verb?) to a >NeXT site and downloaded everything from the /bin directory and whatever else >I wanted - in total about 30 megs of stuff - onto my optical disk. Before I >took out my optical drive, I decided to check how much of it was used up. >14% used. NeXT is not what you hear about on comp.sys.amiga. Try it out and >see. > Varun Mitroo > mitroo@cis.ohio-state.edu This Next thread gets more amusing by the minute. This must be one of the best yet :-) The following is an imaginary story since I can't afford an optical drive. (they do exist for the amy) I went down to the store and bought all the optical disks they had. Then I filled them with PD software. Then I phoned and ordered more disks. One day I hope to start doing backups of my commercial software too, but first I must find somewhere to buy more disks... Howzabout calling a truce until the machines are available off_the_shelf? We can always harass those poor mac and pc owners that are really missing out on the computer revolution :-) Regards, Jorgen -- ******************************************************************************* email dvljhg@cs.umu.se - other ways to communicate are a waste of time. Everything I say is always true, just apply it to the right reality. "Credo, quia absurdum est."
cs472119@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs472119) (12/06/90)
For the last week I've been reading these computer wars, and have had just about enough. Next users on comp.sys.amiga are coming across as a bunch of insecure jerks. Why are you posting on comp.sys.amiga about how great your machine is? Since you bought it (hook, line, and sinker), I assume you like it. Please also remember that the amiga's following is just as passionate. This may come as a surprise to many, but I don't give a rat's ass about unix, which "standard" is better, or who's going to be the first to have a 68040 on the motherboard. I would venture to guess that I am not alone in this view by a longshot. With my amiga, I have options to run Amiga, IBM, Macintosh, and extremely soon, Unix software. The Next is a nice machine as well, with lots of cool PD software and upcoming stuff from big software companies like lotus. Fine! One really disturbing thing is the personal offense some Next users have taken by the Byte article describing the new A3000/UX, followed immediately by counter attacks against amiga users who are not responsible in any way for any errors or misleading information it might have contained. (though I'm not yet convinced it did) Couldn't we all just grow up - just a little? -Larry
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/06/90)
>the 68040 has begun just this week to ship. I wonder how a >68040 machine could be shipping when teh 68040 itself was not? NeXT received its first allotment of 040s on Nov.15. On Nov. 20, the new 040 NeXTs were ready to ship, but the 2.0 operating system was not. Around the 27th of November, the operating system was finalized and the 040 NeXTs began shipping. The first lot of 040 NeXTs, according to a report in the NeXT newsgroup, numbered 1000. Steve Jobs claims 2500 040 NeXTs will have shipped by the end of December. How did NeXT get its 040s before anyone else? Simply, NeXT was largely responsible for debugging the 040s. More importantly, although the 040s were ready for the NeXT by Nov. 15, they were NOT ready for other computers like Hewlett Packard's workstation. There were still outstanding bugs in special features of the chip built specifically for Hewlett Packard's machines. These bugs had no relevance for the NeXT. Again, this information is from articles posted in the NeXT newsgroup. When they 040 NeXT did ship about a week ago, Motorola and NeXT took out a large joint ad in a major national newspaper. The NeXT thus became the first computers to ship with the 040s.
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/06/90)
To Thom Cleland: The Amiga newsgroup is indeed full of well-informed and intelligent posters. However, your postings re the NeXT have not been well-informed. The 105 MB hard drive for the NeXT does indeed come with nearly 40 MB of bundled software (not including the operating system). The 340 MB hard disk does indeed come with nearly 200 MB of bundled software. True, Mathematic is not free to every NeXT buyer, but it IS free to all educational buyers, and I assume you and most of Usenet would be among these (of course, there are some who are not). The 040 NeXTs shipped last week (see a previous article on mine for details). The 030 Amigas are more expensive than the 040 NeXTstations. Do you really expect to get an 040 upgrade and money back from Commodore?? This is what it would take to make your 040 Amiga the same low price as the 040 NeXTStation. The real issue is price/performance. There are many machines much faster than the NeXT or Amiga. But the NeXT beats nearly all of them in terms of price/performance. The Amiga is a valiant challenger to NeXT. But it still has a ways to go if it wants to match NeXT's price/performance. As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to go. Where's that Amiga DSP? Those Amiga DMA channels? That Amiga Mach with parallel processing capabilities? That 2.88 MB floppy drive compatible with both 720K and 1.44 MB MS-DOS formats?
saify@cbnewsl.att.com (saify.lanewala) (12/07/90)
ENough already!! Guess what netters? What the Amiga is bad at, it's not good at. What the NeXT is good at, it's good at. What the Amiga is good at, it's good at. What the NeXT is bad at, it's bad at. Who really cares? I want a computer that does the things I want, how I want. Maybe it's not the *BEST* solution. So what? As long as I am satisifed, that's what counts. We should start a new newsgroup -- COMP.SYS.MINE'S.BETTER.THAN.YOURS.SO.THERE Use that for all such inane comparisons that are subjective. I'll know that a comparison is reasonably objective when I see something that doesn't look like someone *GRUDGINGLY* admitting that in some minor way, their particular true love is lacking. Sorry for the generic flame, but this has got to be tamed in some fashion. Do not bother following up. That will just exacerbate the situation. Saify
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (12/07/90)
In article <1990Dec5.194205.16892@sbcs.sunysb.edu>, dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > > IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, THE AMIGA 3000 HAS A FULL SOCKET > > When the 68040 is out, it should pop right in to where the 68030 was. But will Commodore give it to you for nothing? > > When this happens, the Amiga 3000 will run at 15-20 MIPS, will not require > the slow 68882, etc. Don't compare a 68030 with a 68040! > > You wanna argue some more? My Amiga 500 is way faster than my C64! > Of course it is, Amiga 500 is more expensive and came out after the C64. But how can you explain that A3000UX is more expensive (as it seems now) than a NeXTStation - even if A3000UX is launched later (and has 68030 instead of 68040 etc.)? This is the whole point of me staying in this argument. As it seems that you don't care what you pay for your machine, only if it is an Amiga - and nothing can change that - I am getting fed up with this. Jouni
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/07/90)
I wrote: >>the comparison is not fair because the Amiga 3000UX is vaporware A gentleman from Vermont responds: >I'm sorry, but that's not true. I'm typing this on one. And there are people using Mac's System 7.0 today. I know several people who have NeXTDimensions, which are not scheduled to be released until early next year. But all of these, including the Amiga 3000ux, is vaporware because they have not been finished and released. The Amiga 3000ux's Unix is just not done. Go ahead, use your Amiga 3000ux to your heart's content, but talk to me when SVR4 is completed.
erick@CSUFresno.EDU (Eric Keisler) (12/07/90)
In article <21993@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >To Thom Cleland: > The Amiga newsgroup is indeed full of well-informed and intelligent >posters. No argument here! ;-) > The 030 Amigas are more expensive than the 040 NeXTstations. >...what it would take to make your 040 Amiga the same low price as the 040 >NeXTStation. > The real issue is price/performance. There are many machines much faster >than the NeXT or Amiga. But the NeXT beats nearly all of them in terms of >price/performance. The Amiga is a valiant challenger to NeXT. But it still >has a ways to go if it wants to match NeXT's price/performance. Look, why do *so many* people insist on comparing oranges to bannanas? The Amiga is a *C O L O R* system. There is no such beast as a 4 color monochrome Amiga *CPU*. All Amigas have color support and specialized graphics CPUs built in. If your are going to compare a NeXT to ANY Amiga, for god's sake at least use the NeXTStation Color system. Then REDO your price/performance math, write it down, and LOOK at what you just wrote, O.K.? Heck, there are *numerous* monochrome based systems that come in at a low price. But add color capability to many of those systems and WHAM-O, it's time for a second mortgage on the house. Of course a third mortgage would be required if you want to do any sort of animation or video graphics. --- Eric Keisler, CSU Fresno erick@zimmer.ucs.csufresno.edu
don@brahms.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (12/07/90)
In article <21993@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > The 030 Amigas are more expensive than the 040 NeXTstations. Do you >really expect to get an 040 upgrade and money back from Commodore?? This is >what it would take to make your 040 Amiga the same low price as the 040 >NeXTStation. > The real issue is price/performance. There are many machines much faster >than the NeXT or Amiga. But the NeXT beats nearly all of them in terms of >price/performance. The Amiga is a valiant challenger to NeXT. But it still >has a ways to go if it wants to match NeXT's price/performance. Buy one piece of software for your NeXT and you've likely thrown out that price advantage, or at least a good portion of it. > As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to >go. Where's that Amiga DSP? The AMiga's custom coprocessors are far from being as powerful as the 56001, but are not too shabby. They certainly make the display fast. >Those Amiga DMA channels? Oh, you mean the 25 DMA channels that every Amiga's had since the first 1000's shipped what, 6 years ago? I believe Agnus has got 'em all. >That Amiga Mach with >parallel processing capabilities? What NeXT hardware is there with multiprocessing abilities? If you mean the processor & DSP, I think you're confusing co- with multi- processing, but that's another war. AmigaDOS is small and fast, UNIX is big and slow. Both have good and bad points. >That 2.88 MB floppy drive compatible with >both 720K and 1.44 MB MS-DOS formats? As soon as such drives become readily available with SCSI interfaces, they'll be around. As long as you're asking "Where is" questions, here are a few about the NeXT: Where is the inexpensive software? the under-$500 color video digitizer? The NeXT Fred Fish collection? The NeXT employees who spend a great deal of time answering just about any question posted to the net? If I have a problem with my 3000, I can post a question here and often have it answered within hours by the people who built it. Any third-party hardware to plug into the expansion slots of those few NeXTs which actually have them? (Besides the $7000 DSP board). NeXT-specific magazines? A NeXT developer's association? NeXT Video Toaster? Frame buffers? Under $5000 color systems? All-NeXT trade shows? Mac or PC emulation (yes, I know softPC is coming, but can it with the compatibility offered by the bridgeboards?) How about an inexpensive version that the average person can afford? For many people, it's not "The Amiga 3000 costs more than the NeXT," it's "How the hell am I going to scrape up enough money to get a computer?" Both machines are useful; the NeXT is better in some respects, the Amiga in others. I wouldn't mind having one (or more:-) of each, but the Amiga won out as my choice. -- Gibberish Amiga 3000 owner/fanatic is spoken Contact don@brahms.udel.edu for more information. here. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
schweige@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil (jeffrey schweiger) (12/07/90)
In article <21993@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: [much deleted] > The real issue is price/performance. There are many machines much faster >than the NeXT or Amiga. But the NeXT beats nearly all of them in terms of >price/performance. The Amiga is a valiant challenger to NeXT. But it still >has a ways to go if it wants to match NeXT's price/performance. > As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to >go. Where's that Amiga DSP? Those Amiga DMA channels? That Amiga Mach with >parallel processing capabilities? That 2.88 MB floppy drive compatible with >both 720K and 1.44 MB MS-DOS formats? To which I could reply: Where's the NeXT Unix SVR4 (although not officially released there are many A3000UX's shipped)? Where's the NeXT Video Toaster? Where's the large NeXT installed user base (there are over 2 million Amigas shipped, how many NeXT's are there)? Look, this thread has long since ceased to be productive, and certainly has no further useful contribution to comp.sys.amiga. Like Mike Smithwick a little earlier, I have now allowed myself to be dragged into this 'discussion'. The Amigas and the NeXTs are machines designed and optimized for different purposes, and are hopefully good at their intended market areas, which are _not_ the same. Mr. Yoo, thank you for your information, but if I want further information on the topic, I'll read comp.sys.next. Comp.sys.amiga is intended for Amiga discussions, and without your postings, this entire thread would have died down a long time ago. Jeff Schweiger -- ******************************************************************************* Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil *******************************************************************************
dcr3567@isc.rit.edu (D.C. Richardson ) (12/07/90)
>>already more than a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT software. The ones at >>Purdue, Oregon State, and Maryland seem to be the most popular. >I wanted - in total about 30 megs of stuff - onto my optical disk. Before I So THAT'S why the net has been so bogged down lately... Maybe it's time the networks switched to fiber optics to handle the new (I mean) NeXT load. 1/2 :-) -Dan -- Daniel C. Richardson Rochester Institute Of Technology / Mechanical Engineering Dept. "Immaturity Is The Essence Of Humanity. Children Shall Be Our Saviors" -Red's Dream
amr@egr.duke.edu (Anthony M. Richardson) (12/07/90)
From article <4166.275e7c73@cc.helsinki.fi>, by jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi: > > This is the whole point of me staying in this argument. As it seems that > you don't care what you pay for your machine, only if it is an Amiga - > and nothing can change that - I am getting fed up with this. > > > Jouni I hate to contribute to this, but ... There are some basic differences between the machines. The Amiga does have built in color. The $4000 NeXTstation is a monochrome system. The NeXTstation sports better performance figures (according to others who know more than I). I would recommend the Amiga 3000 to someone looking for a cheap UNIX system that can also do DeskTop Video and killer games. I would recommend the NeXTstation to someone looking for a cheap UNIX system for number crunching and scientific applications. Each machine has qualities that appeal to a certain group of people. I am not going to buy a Corvette if I need a Lumina (even if the performance is better :-)). This is a pointless, tiring argument and I feel cheapened by having contributed to it. Tony
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (12/07/90)
In article <4166.275e7c73@cc.helsinki.fi>, jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes... ^In article <1990Dec5.194205.16892@sbcs.sunysb.edu>, dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: ^> [stuff deleted] ^ ^Of course it is, Amiga 500 is more expensive and came out after the C64. But ^how can you explain that A3000UX is more expensive (as it seems now) ^than a NeXTStation - even if A3000UX is launched later (and has 68030 ^instead of 68040 etc.)? Why are Tandy computers sold so cheap compared to other clones? ^ ^This is the whole point of me staying in this argument. As it seems that ^you don't care what you pay for your machine, only if it is an Amiga - ^and nothing can change that - I am getting fed up with this. ^ Good. Please leave. The only reason that I'm in this silly discussion is every time I try to build a kill file my quota runs out and I delete everything so I can exit the editor (anyone know how to arrange it so VNEWS doesn't journal an editing session?). Talk about no disk space (I got 500 blks...300 odd of which is taken up by my own environment to make the EVE editor usable). Look. The NeXT is a wonderful machine. It outclasses the Amiga by leaps and bounds. You were brilliant to buy a NeXT. Happy? Good. Go Away. Grrrrr... ^ ^ Jouni NT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- // | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project \X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov | Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own.
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (12/07/90)
Fortune Cookie says: Ignore previous article.
Sorry guys...I meant that as an email response but it seems I don't know my <R>s
from my <f>s. So I waste even more bandwidth apologising ;-).
NT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
// | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project
\X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov
|
Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own. ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (12/07/90)
In article <21993@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >To Thom Cleland: > As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to >go. Where's that Amiga DSP? Those Amiga DMA channels? That Amiga Mach with >parallel processing capabilities? That 2.88 MB floppy drive compatible with >both 720K and 1.44 MB MS-DOS formats? So where's the NeXTstation's high-performance multi-master 32-bit autoconfig(tm) bus? Where's it's NTSC compatible video output? Where's it's *second* floppy drive bay? You all must find one floppy drive (or zero for those with the optical disk) pretty limiting. As for options, where's your Mac emulator? Where's your MS-DOS bridgecard? The A3000UX, with System V release 4, is Posix-compliant, which opens the door to federal procurement nicely. How does Mach fare? (Oh, I forgot - Jobs claims the OS isn't important to a purchaser, it's just a base for applications, which are important. A standard OS doesn't matter.) (BTW you must not have known that the Amiga wrote the book on DMA channels, with 25 residing in Agnus chip servicing the custom chippery, and bus mastering DMA peripherals on the expansion bus.) OK, now let's all get it out in the open. We both (NeXTers and Amigans) were attracted to a machine which seemed to offer better performance and features than the accepted institution, the PC and Mac. We both believe we've chosen the best machine for the price. We become insecure enough when we see how few people have made the same choice, and so are prone to defensiveness. (No one with a PC needs to defend or justify it.) It is more unnerving when we see others who have made a different choice for the same reasons - superior price, performance, and features. So people, beleive me when I tell you, it's possible for us *all* to have made the right choice! Whether we chose a NeXT, Amiga, Atari ST, PC clone (ugh), or Timex Sinclair (OK, OK, I'm just making a point), it was a valid and correct choice for the reasons we chose it. So all of you go home, relax, and have a happy holiday. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
mwm@fenris.relay.pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) (12/07/90)
In article <21991@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes:
Steve Jobs claims 2500 040 NeXTs will have shipped by the end of December.
Hmm. 2500 machines a month, along with back orders of 15,000 as of
announcment time. That translates to 6 months before the orders
placed _before the public announcement_ are filled. Even ignoring
orders placed since announcement, that's a bit of a wait to get a
machine.
I expect to own an '040 based Amiga in less than 6 months. Depends on
how deep the various discounts on the '040 cards are. Not only will I
then have a faster machine than the NeXT, it'll have better graphics
for the things I do, and I won't have to put up with software based on
Unix (though by then I expect to be running OSF's multi-threaded Mach
kernel at work).
<mike
--a499@mindlink.UUCP (Robert Salesas) (12/07/90)
Excuse me, but can someone point out what the prices are for the Next and the 3000? I know this is probably not the place but since this discussion is going on and on and on and on we should at least get the cost straight. Oh, yeah, list the specs also... Rob
bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) (12/07/90)
In article <21930@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John "Vlad" Adams" writes: > >An Amiga 3000ux will crank out 5 Mips. The 040 NeXTs crank out 15-20 Mips >(both sets of figures are from Motorola). The 040 NeXTs do nearly 3 MFLOPS, >the floating point coprocessor on the Amiga 3000ux will be lucky to approach >1 MFLOP. { Are we talking about the 68882 FPU for the amiga!? 1 MFLOPS !? Ha!! If a 50 MHz 882 approaches .5 MFLOPS I would be impressed.
bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) (12/07/90)
In article <14702@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) writes: >In article <21941@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >Incorrect. I still cannot order a 68040 NeXT at my local >computer dealer (U. bookstore). I assume they won't be long, Wrong. Well, you may not be, but I was able to. I ordered my cube (040) already, and they didn't complain. They did say they didn't know when I would get it however. But the 040 next's are shipping, there is a demo NeXTstation over in our engineering building, seems fast enough for me. I know they exist, I know they are shipping, and know I HAVEN'T GOTTEN MINE YET :(. Oh well, I should have it early january. - Vareck ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ Vareck Bostrom ++ ++ bostrov@mist.cs.orst.edu ++ ++ bostrov%storm@cs.uoregon.edu ++ ++ ++ ++ All this signifigance ++ ++ what does it mean? ++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) (12/07/90)
In article <1990Dec5.154228.20653@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: >I'll guarantee you that the 882 is less than one MIP :) It is also less >than .5 MFLOPs at 25 MHz. I haven't had the opportunity to benchmark a >50 MHz 882, but maybe later on today. I have tested a 882/50 mhz. I am supprised you got so good results from the 25 mhz 882, though my battery of tests was not as extensive as yours, I managed only .2441 MFLOPS from a 25 MHz 68882 (sun 3). I got ALMOST .5 MFLOPS on a 50 MHz 882. Vareck Bostrom reply-to: bostrov@mist.cs.orst.edu ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ Vareck Bostrom ++ ++ bostrov@mist.cs.orst.edu ++ ++ bostrov%storm@cs.uoregon.edu ++ ++ ++ ++ All this signifigance ++ ++ what does it mean? ++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/07/90)
> Nothing beats the Amiga as far as ease of USE. As far as ease of >programming, I would suggest the Amiga ten thousand zillion times before >a Mac or a NeXT! First, the NeXT is easier to use in many ways than a Mac. I think it compares very favorably to an Amiga. You see, the NeXT hides Unix. No greps, no vi, no ls is necessary (but it's all there if you want to use it). The programmer and user works at the level of NeXTStep, which sits on top of Unix. It is an ideal environment for creative interface-intensive applications. You have a state-of-the-art object-oriented programming environment that it extremely powerful and easy to use. You will see revolutionary software come out on the NeXT. Lotus's Improv is just one example (check out October Byte). The NeXT software development environment really frees the programmer from old assumptions of limitations (both in terms of hardware and interface) and makes him/her feel that he/she can do just about anything. Just one reason some NeXT programmers are cocky and occasionally wonder over to other newsgroups to spread the gospel :-).
bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) (12/07/90)
Actually, I agree. Come'on guys, lets all be friends. I am willing to admit that the Amiga (even the 500) is an innovative and powerful computer, and I'm sure Amiga owners/users will admint that the NeXT's (even 030 nexts) are the same. The NeXT os (mach) is a cool, neat, awesome os. So is the amiga/os. The amiga has really cool, powerful sound and graphics capibilities, so does the NeXT. Both are multitasking, both use mc680x0 cpu's, both can be wicked fast when they want to be. The Amiga has A LOT of applications out there, not just games, the NeXT has some really high quality apps out, and some games. Both look bright in the software end as far as the future is concerned. Both are priced fairly well. Yes, the NeXT does include a DSP, a neato Interface Builder, etc, and the Amiga has far more applications out there than the NeXT is going to see this year, at least. The score is settled. Let's pick on mac/pc people for a while. - Vareck Bostrom The hatchet is buried. Reply-to: bostrov@mist.cs.orst.edu ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ Vareck Bostrom ++ ++ bostrov@mist.cs.orst.edu ++ ++ bostrov%storm@cs.uoregon.edu ++ ++ ++ ++ All this signifigance ++ ++ what does it mean? ++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (12/07/90)
In article <23853@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: > >So people, beleive me when I tell you, it's possible for us *all* to >have made the right choice! Whether we chose a NeXT, Amiga, Atari ST, >PC clone (ugh), or Timex Sinclair (OK, OK, I'm just making a point), >it was a valid and correct choice for the reasons we chose it. Just to throw a bit into this: I also watch the German branch of the Fido net. And there in the Atari TT group they also compare the TT only with a NeXT, and they all come to the conclusion that a TT is far better choice because of its lower price (it even fell recently). Should sound a little strange for Amigan's ears... -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (12/07/90)
In article <1223@cameron.egr.duke.edu>, amr@egr.duke.edu (Anthony M. Richardson) writes: > From article <4166.275e7c73@cc.helsinki.fi>, by jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi: >> >> This is the whole point of me staying in this argument. As it seems that >> you don't care what you pay for your machine, only if it is an Amiga - >> and nothing can change that - I am getting fed up with this. >> >> >> Jouni I have got a lot of angry mail because I wrote this. O.K. I admit that I was in the bad mood. > > I hate to contribute to this, but ... > > There are some basic differences between the machines. The Amiga > does have built in color. The $4000 NeXTstation is a monochrome system. > The NeXTstation sports better performance figures (according to others > who know more than I). Yes. If you want to change the 68040 and DSP for color then Amiga could be the way to go. I was just wondering if many students etc. really need desktop video. Well, of course in this newsgroup the percentage is large since Amiga is well suited for cost-effective video work. > > I would recommend the Amiga 3000 to someone looking for a cheap UNIX > system that can also do DeskTop Video and killer games. > I would recommend the NeXTstation to someone looking for a cheap UNIX > system for number crunching and scientific applications. > BTW, is NeXTStation Color much more expensive than the A3000UX? (In educational?) Other main area for all NeXTs is computer music and digital recording studios. Jouni Alkio, Helsinki, Finland
dvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (12/08/90)
In article <22015@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >> Nothing beats the Amiga as far as ease of USE. As far as ease of >>programming, I would suggest the Amiga ten thousand zillion times before >>a Mac or a NeXT! > >First, the NeXT is easier to use in many ways than a Mac. I think it >compares very favorably to an Amiga. You see, the NeXT hides Unix. No >greps, no vi, no ls is necessary (but it's all there if you want to use it). >The programmer and user works at the level of NeXTStep, which sits on top >of Unix. It is an ideal environment for creative interface-intensive >applications. You have a state-of-the-art object-oriented programming >environment that it extremely powerful and easy to use. You will see >revolutionary software come out on the NeXT. Lotus's Improv is just one >example (check out October Byte). The NeXT software development >environment really frees the programmer from old assumptions of limitations >(both in terms of hardware and interface) and makes him/her feel >that he/she can do just about anything. Just one reason some NeXT >programmers are cocky and occasionally wonder over to other newsgroups >to spread the gospel :-). Change a few words and you have just summed up what's so great about the amiga. Do you want to trade me a Next for my A500? Jorgen -- ******************************************************************************* email dvljhg@cs.umu.se - other ways to communicate are a waste of time. Everything I say is always true, just apply it to the right reality. "Credo, quia absurdum est."
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (12/08/90)
In article <682@storm.UUCP> bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) writes: >Actually, I agree. > >Come'on guys, lets all be friends. I am willing to admit that the >Amiga (even the 500) is an innovative and powerful computer, and >I'm sure Amiga owners/users will admint that the NeXT's (even 030 >nexts) are the same. How about this: The world would be a much better place if all the millions of IBMs and Macs were replaced with Amigas and NeXTs. 8) -- Ethan Woody Allen on Los Angeles: "I mean, who would want to live in a place where the only cultural advantage is that you can turn right on a red light?"
gunda@cbmehq.UUCP (Gunda O'Neal ESCO) (12/08/90)
In article <21991@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > >NeXT received its first allotment of 040s on Nov.15. On Nov. 20, the (stuff deleted) Did I miss this group being re-named ? -- Gunda O'Neal, CATS- EUROPE AMIGA Developer Support Administration UUCP: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!gunda "If you try to please everybody,somebody is not going to like it"
Dennis_Grant@CMR001.BITNET (12/08/90)
A silly post for a silly thread...
Are the various NeXt machines' cases still made out of magnesium?
(wouldn't advise smoking NeXt to one of those suckers)
or, on the other hand, maybe that has some use. As a very bright (if
somewhat short-lived) light source. Never live in fear of the dark again!
Buy a NeXt! Or perhaps a 1X1 30000 candlepower monochrome display?
I never did understand that particular choice of construction materials.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dennis Grant DETUD595@CMR001.BITNET | There ain't no replacement |
| Computer Science (Systems) student | for cubic displacement. |
| at CMR. (The "other" MilCol) | |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
| All standard disclaimers apply |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (12/08/90)
bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) writes:
< Come'on guys, lets all be friends. I am willing to admit that the
< Amiga (even the 500) is an innovative and powerful computer, and
< I'm sure Amiga owners/users will admint that the NeXT's (even 030
< nexts) are the same.
I'm glad to see SOMEONE had the sense to say this. I believe you will
find that the vast majority of Amiga users/owners out there really have
nothing against the NeXT. In fact, had I the money, I would probably
own both (an Amiga and a NeXT), as well as a SPARCStation, a Cray, and
the Shuttle Columbia :-). However, I don't. I had enough funds to
purchase 1 (one) computer, and feel that I made an intelligent,
informed decision. I have no regrets. Quite the contrary, I am elated
by the power, flexibility, and FUN my Amiga provides to me. I
sincerely hope that any self-respecting NeXT user could say the same.
The only problem I've had is with the people who post articles which
have a negative tone, and appear to be saying "If you had a lick of
sense you'd RUN RIGHT DOWN to your local NeXT dealer and BUY ONE (maybe
even TWO!)". This leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, and is quite
unnecessary.
< The score is settled. Let's pick on mac/pc people for a while.
Nahhh... Don't you think having to USE a Mac or a PC is punishment
enough? :-)
< - Vareck Bostrom
<
< The hatchet is buried.
Hey! Watch where you bury that thing! :-)
Regards,
Chris
--
Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ///
cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | /// Make up your own
...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | \\\/// mind.
The Home of the Killer Smiley | \XX/dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu (Darin D Sheriff) (12/08/90)
In article <2320@cbmehq.UUCP> 0 writes: >In article <21991@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >> >>NeXT received its first allotment of 040s on Nov.15. On Nov. 20, the > >(stuff deleted) >Did I miss this group being re-named ? Yes you did. It is now comp.sys.amiga.vs.next >-- >Gunda O'Neal, CATS- EUROPE >AMIGA Developer Support Administration >UUCP: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!gunda >"If you try to please everybody,somebody is not going to like it" -- Darin Sheriff. Just a College student with an Amiga. "According to the classical laws of Aerodynamics, it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly." --- DR WHO --- Disclaimer: Wasn't me.
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/08/90)
mike smithwick writes: >True, it [the NeXT] comes with all of the "basics". Most of which could >really never be used unless you shelled out more bucks for a laser printer. The NeXT's laser printer is 400dpi and costs $1795 retail. Educational buyers and developers can get it for approx. $1200. If this is still too pricey, you can hook up other printers, like Apple's ImageWriter, using some free/share software.
gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) (12/08/90)
First things first. I'm going to try to shift this to alt.religion.computers In article <23853@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >So where's the NeXTstation's high-performance multi-master 32-bit >autoconfig(tm) bus? Where's it's NTSC compatible video output? Where's Well, they have NTSC compatability in their NeXTDimension board. You don't really get NTSC compatability with a regular Amiga anyways. You're always going to have to add a genlock and/or some other video stuff to make it do it anyways. This is, of course, true of NeXTs too. >it's *second* floppy drive bay? You all must find one floppy drive (or >zero for those with the optical disk) pretty limiting. Why is that? You never use the floppy for much other than installing new software releases or backing up. >As for options, where's your Mac emulator? Where's your MS-DOS >bridgecard? I've heard something about a Mac emulator for it. MS-DOS is coming in the form of Soft-PC. >The A3000UX, with System V release 4, is Posix-compliant, which opens >the door to federal procurement nicely. How does Mach fare? (Oh, I >forgot - Jobs claims the OS isn't important to a purchaser, it's just >a base for applications, which are important. A standard OS doesn't >matter.) Mach isn't an OS. Mach is a kernel. The NeXTs run BSD. There are a TON of BSD applications out there. Same with Sys V. Mach does provide for many nice features though. >OK, now let's all get it out in the open. We both (NeXTers and Amigans) were >attracted to a machine which seemed to offer better performance and >features than the accepted institution, the PC and Mac. We both believe >we've chosen the best machine for the price. We become insecure enough >when we see how few people have made the same choice, and so are prone >to defensiveness. (No one with a PC needs to defend or justify it.) >It is more unnerving when we see others who have made a different >choice for the same reasons - superior price, performance, and features. >So people, beleive me when I tell you, it's possible for us *all* to >have made the right choice! Whether we chose a NeXT, Amiga, Atari ST, >PC clone (ugh), or Timex Sinclair (OK, OK, I'm just making a point), >it was a valid and correct choice for the reasons we chose it. So all >of you go home, relax, and have a happy holiday. Absolutely agree with the above stuff. I love Amigas, and I love NeXTs. See ya, Ralph Ralph Seguin gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu 536 South Forest Apt. #915 gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48104 (313) 662-4805
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (12/08/90)
In article <22042@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: [ongoing NeXT vs. Amiga debate which seems pointless. Both are nice.] >The NeXT's laser printer is 400dpi and costs $1795 retail. Educational buyers >and developers can get it for approx. $1200. If this is still too pricey, >you can hook up other printers, like Apple's ImageWriter, using some >free/share software. Sorry to the Amiga folk for gwtting NeXT info here. I also have an A3000 question. First to the A3000. Will an A3000+cd-rom= CDTV? Are the Sierra games supported on the A3000? Will games/educational software be moved to the A3000? I was as the World of Commodore Show here in Toronto and was rather impressed. There's lot's going on in the Amiga world that's exciting and accessible to more people than in the NeXT world( I have a NeXT). But one thing that Commodore should be pushing is the scientific possibilities of the Amiga. There's a bit of software that is very good in that domain, and Commodore would be wise to bundle it with Amigas instead of games, painting programs,etc...I'm thinking of Math Vision, Amiga TeX, Maple. Get them to do a port of S from Bell Labs. This would give the Amiga fantastic statistical data analysis and interactive graphics' capabilities for all scientists. It is the premier statistical program. Actually New S or S+ would be even better. The port should be straightforward using Unix. It does not run on the Mac. As for the NeXT( which I really like as my Mac replacement), printing to the ImigaWriter is totally unacceptable. What about support for the Deskjet or the Painjet or the Laserjet etc...? Where is it? I can't stand 9 pin printers that cost more than 300 dot/in HP ones. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/08/90)
It's postings like yours that keep me going. It's extremely hard to turn away from the discussion when you or another Amiga-proponent ask pointed questions about the NeXT or make ridiculous statements about the machine. These are trends I've noticed throughout the Usenet newsgroups. 1. During a flame war, people inevitably post messages that say, "You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. Now, let's stop discussing this issue since it's not relevant to the newsgroup." These kinds of messages only perpetuate flame wars. 2. During a flame war, people inevitably post messages that say, "This is boring and uninformative crap. Get this out of MY newsgroup." The truth usually is that all too many people are interested in the issue, and often passionately so. Moreover, newsgroups do not belong to individuals or even groups (unless they are moderated). They are for public discussions, and hardware comparisons involving the Amiga do have a place in the Amiga newsgroups. Cheers, Young
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/08/90)
The questions just keep on coming, so here are some more questions and answers: >Where's the NeXT SVR4? SVR4 doesn't exist as finished product. SVR4 is what is keeping the Amiga 3000ux from going into official release. BSD Unix is just fine, thank you. And Mach is arguably the most advanced kernel around today (even taking SVR4 into account). >Where's the NeXT Video Toaster? The NeXT has the NeXTDimension. >Where's the large NeXT installed user base? I write software for the NeXT because I believe it will achieve a large user base. It is still a machine in its infancy in terms of the marketplace. Also the success of the NeXT is not measured in the numbers used for PCs. The Amiga has a user base of 2,000,000 (according to one poster). If NeXT were to achieve this figure, it would control 100% of the low-end workstation market. >What NeXT hardware is there with multiprocessing capabilities. I assume you mean "parallel processing." The NeXT, thanks to Unix, is a multiprocessing computer. As for "parallel processing," NeXT has yet to take advantage of the parallel processing capabilities inherent in Mach. But there is some talk about a parallel processing NeXT by the end of this year. We're talking multiple 040s on one board running in concert. >Where is the inexpensive software? Much of the most useful software for the NeXT comes free with the machin: a commercial quality wordprocessor, a revolutionary spreadsheet, the Digital Librarian, Interface Builder, Mathematica (for educational buyers), etc. NeXT software is comparable to Mac software in pricing. There are exceptions of course. There are outrageously priced high-end software packages for workstations and there are great low-price deals to educational buyers. Lighthouse Design is selling their Diagram! program for $10 to students. It retails for $249 (yes, you save $239! if you're a student). Informix is selling Wingz with better than a 50% discount to students . I think the figure is something like $150 for a product that retails at $700. There are over a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT freeware/shareware. Check out cs.orst.edu and nova.cc.purdue.edu in particular (I'm not sure about the purdue net address). >Any third-party software to plug into the expansion slots of those few >NeXTs which actually have them? There's the Ariel QuintProcessor which gives you five additional DSP chips on one board. There is Cube Digital I/O which gives you 64 channels of digital I/O, a Centronics-compatible parallel port, and other goodies. There's the Dazzl Model16/12 Analog to Digital Converter. There are also many products that take adge of the built-in NeXT DSP port, the two serial ports, the new SCSI-2 port, the built-in thin and twisted-pair Ethernet, the mic jack AND built-in mic, et al. >The NeXT Fred Fish collection? Don't know what this is. >The NeXT employees who spend a great deal of time answering just about... You'll see a few of them in the NeXT newsgroup. And if they're not there to answer your questions, there are many NeXT hardware/software developers in the NeXT newsgroup who will. They sometimes even make it over to the Amiga newsgroup :-). >NeXT-specific magazines. Currently, there is the NeXT User's Journal, Baran's Tech Letter, and the various newsletters of the over 50 NeXT user groups worldwide. Next month, the first issue of NeXTWorld will be out from the people who brought us MacWorld and PCWorld. For those more technically inclined, Nexus magazine is due out this month. >A NeXT developer's association? NeXT developer's SIGs are forming all over the country. In my area is the SIG formed by BaNG (the Bay Area NeXT User's Group) and BMUG for NeXT software developers. >NeXT Video Toaster? Frame buffers? Under $5000 color systems? The Next has NeXTDimension as I said. As for under $5000 color systems, the NeXT ain't a lower-end PC. It's market is a little higher. >All-NeXT trade shows? None of these yet. But we do get to see Steve Jobs special brand of dog and pony shows :-). >Mac or PC emulation SoftPC 2.0 claims to be 100% AT-compatible and claims to run MS-DOS software at 12-16 MHz 286 speeds. Not bad for an emulator, eh? As for Mac emulation, I don't think anyone's working on it. >How about an inexpensive version that everyone can afford? The NeXT is not a low-end PC. Do you want to play games, or do you want a workstation? At any rate, for $3000-$3500, a student can buy a NeXT for the price of a Mac SE/30 and less than the price of the Amiga 3000ux. Of course, I'd also love to see a PC-priced NeXT. But there's a price you pay for power and features. It's not the machine for everyone. But it is the machine I'm buying.
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/08/90)
You're getting to be one of the main reasons I'm sticking around the Amiga newsgroup. Your postings will do nothing but get more irate NeXTers to post to the newsgroup. If you're serious about clearing us out.... shut up. Cheers, Young
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/08/90)
Sorry, that last angry note was intended for a certain N.T. But I might as reiterate the point of that note here. The lovely flames I've received in public or through e-mail are very large incentives for me to keep posting. They are also large incentives for other NeXTers to perpetuate this flame war. I have nothing against those who argue with facts, figures, and honest albeit biased opinions. But, I do not appreciate the personal flames I've seen here and in my e-mail. Remember, we're discussing machines, not personalities. And remember, every flame keeps the fire going.
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (12/08/90)
In article <MWM.90Dec6214541@fenris.relay.pa.dec.com>, mwm@fenris.relay.pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) writes: > In article <21991@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > Steve Jobs claims 2500 040 NeXTs will have shipped by the end of December. > > Hmm. 2500 machines a month, along with back orders of 15,000 as of > announcment time. That translates to 6 months before the orders > placed _before the public announcement_ are filled. Even ignoring > orders placed since announcement, that's a bit of a wait to get a > machine. > > I expect to own an '040 based Amiga in less than 6 months. Depends on > how deep the various discounts on the '040 cards are. Not only will I Do you really think that Commodore (or some third-party '040 board vendor) will get '040s faster than NeXT? > then have a faster machine than the NeXT, it'll have better graphics Based on what? I wouldn't believe this before I see some good benchmarks. Note: I am not objecting Amiga. I just am very cautious about misinformation. Jouni
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (12/09/90)
When you wrote "I was just wondering if many stdents ect. really need desktop video. Well, of course in this news group the percentage is large since the amiga is well suited for cost-effective video work." Tell you what, nothing impresses a prof more than a slick looking video that you slapped together in about and hour. Case in point, in m ROTC class, I had to give a presentation, I selected the Slealth fighter as my topic (this just just before it went real "public", I built a model, and also drew an amimation where the fighter would come on screen, and then I would show some radar waves bouncing off of it and where they went... I took it over to a friends amiga and we put it to video tape (he had a rf modulator and a VCR), the whole set up for what I did was $600 for my amiga 500 and memory $250 for the monitor $150 for DPaint III, and then $50 for the modulator, and $200 for the VCR, oh and $5.00 for the video tape, and my presentation blew everyone away. I little 35 frame animation can make all the differance... Raoul Rodriguez "People may not believe what you say, but they will always believe what you do." - Unknown
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (12/09/90)
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes
>question. First to the A3000. Will an A3000+cd-rom= CDTV? Are the Sierra
Actually, Any amiga +cd-rom= CDTV... As for the other questions, I am not
as sure.n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (12/09/90)
Here it goes again...
O.K... TO settle this price/performance thing, I went down to the local
campus computer store (where they sell NeXT machines) to get a first
hand look at the machine, and also to get the prices... And, this is
what I found...
There are currently 4 diffrent NeXT setups... and all 4 setups come with
two diffrent Hard Drives, 105 or 340 (with the 105 you don't get a lot
of software, but with 340 you get a bunch). The prices in "("'s are the
educational prices, the plain prices are the retail price. The dealer
wasn't sure on the last three cube setups... so they have a "+" after
them...
1) The NeXTStation (The Slab) (Greyscale)
- 105 HD $4,995 ($3,328) (Don't forget to add tax)
- 340 HD $7,995 ($5,052)
2) The NextStation with color (up to 4032)
- 105 HD $7,995 ($5,774)
- 340 HD $9,995 ($7,941)
3) The Cube (Greyscale)
- 105 HD $7,995 ($5,774)
- 340 HD $10,000+ ($8,302)
4) The Cube w/color (16.7 million (32 bit))
- 105 HD $15,000+ ($10,194)
- 340 HD $17,000+ ($12,722)
The NeXTStation (Slab) is made to be unexpanded, there are no slots.
The Cube however has three slots. The greyscale cube can be upgraded
to color for $2995 for the board, and a 20 inch color monitor will run
and additional $1850.
The NeXT family uses the Scsi II interface, so, there are not that many
drives out there, upgrading your storage space is moderatly difficult
because there are only two companies that manufacture SCSI II drives
(Quantum just jumped in, so I didn't include them), and the prices are
high compared to regular SCSI. (I can get those as well)
All and all, I think that the machine to compare to the A3000UX would
be the NeXTStation with color, and that runs at $5774 (educ. disc) for
the 105, but the 3000 comes with a 200 HD... so tack on another $1000
for 100 more megs of hard drive space for the NeXTStation (color), and
the machine that compares to the 3000 actually costs ~$6,500 (educ.disc)
and ~$9,000 retail (on both prices, you still need to add tax)
All and all, I think we need to re evaulate the price/performance
comparison...
Raoul Rodriguez
"People may not believe what you say, but they will always believe
what you do."
If you want, I can get the prices for the Amiga as well...yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/09/90)
mwm@fenris.relay.pa.dec.com (Mike) writes: >Hmm. 2500 machines a month, along with backorders of 15,000 as of >announcement time. That translates to 6 months before....the orders >are filled No. As I indicated in one of my postings, Motorola will not get be up to full speed until January on the 040s. But when Motorola does get there, NeXT machines will ship in considerably larger quantities than 2500 a month. It's just my own guess, but I think that 15,000 orders will be filled by the end of February. And this is what NeXT has been saying all along. NeXT promised that the 040 NeXTs would ship in November. It did. NeXT says that the backorders will be filled in early 1991. It looks like its well on the way.
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/09/90)
>Are the various NeXt machines' cases still made out of magnesium.
The magnesium now has a layer of plastic to protect it. The paint tended
to scratch off the magnesium too easily on the old NeXTs. For all you
trivia buffs, someone in the NeXT newsgroup states that the NeXT's cube
has the single largest one-piece cast of magnesium sold in the world.yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/09/90)
Since I'm a stickler for factual accuracy and believe that the best arguments are factual, here are a couple of corrections to some statements that I've made in the past. Yes, the Amiga has DMA channels. Sorry for implying that it did not. Yes, I confused "multiprocessing" with "multitasking." The NeXT now multitasks, it may become a multiprocessing machine by the end of this year. Any Amiga proponents wish to correct themselves?
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/09/90)
>Where's [the NeXT's] NTSC compatible video output? Don't know about NTSC compatibility, but the video i/o on the NeXTDimension is something to see. Realtime JPEG compression, the 80 MFLOP i860 to drive the display, the ability to hook up to a VCR, laserdisc, Camcorder, et al without additional boards. >Where's it's *second* floppy drive bay? You must find one floppy drive >or zero for those with the optical disk) pretty limiting. The NeXT ain't a PC. It's amazing how much more you can do with an optical and a hard disk than a floppy and a harddisk (kind of silly to even talk about two floppies). The new machines now all come with a 2.88MB floppy and at least a 105 MB hard disk (there's also 330, 660, and now, a 200 MB hard disk option). Much more functional than 2 floppy system. I don't know what the answer to this question is, but can you fit two floppies and a 105 MB hard disk into the case for an Amiga 3000ux? You can always get external drives. But this is also true for the NeXT. >Where's your MS-DOS bridgecard? With SoftPC 2.0 for $500 and with 100% AT compatibility and emulation at speeds comparable to a 12-16 MHz 286 machine, who needs a bridgecard? SoftPC 2.0 is due out in February. I've seen it in action though. >The A3000UX, with System V Release 4, is Posix-compliant, which opens the >door to federal procurement nicely. How does Mach fare? Mach, with its 4.3BSD compatibility, is Posix-compliant. As for federal procurement, there is talk that NASA has bought 5000 of the new NeXTs. InfoWorld, I think it was, reports the CIA is interested in the NeXTs because of its DSP chip. NeXT is going heavily into the government market. >Jobs claims that the OS isn't important to the purchaser....A standard >OS doesn't matter [to Jobs]. Despite what Jobs may think, he's built a machine with a standard, yet forward-looking OS. It's basically 4.3BSD with a Mach kernel. 4.3BSD is the standard part. The Mach kernel is the forward-looking component.
don@brahms.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (12/09/90)
In article <22055@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >Don't know about NTSC compatibility, but the video i/o on the NeXTDimension >is something to see. Realtime JPEG compression, the 80 MFLOP i860 to drive >the display, the ability to hook up to a VCR, laserdisc, Camcorder, et al >without additional boards. > >The NeXT ain't a PC. It's amazing how much more you can do with an optical >and a hard disk than a floppy and a harddisk (kind of silly to even talk about Ummm, now you're comparing a NeXT (not even the low-end one) with thousands of add-ons to a 3000. From the "ability to hook up a VCR.." line, I'd assume it has some kind of NTSC output. But can such output be had without buying this card? Does it come built-in with every NeXT? >>Where's your MS-DOS bridgecard? >With SoftPC 2.0 for $500 and with 100% AT compatibility and emulation at >speeds comparable to a 12-16 MHz 286 machine, who needs a bridgecard? >SoftPC 2.0 is due out in February. SoftPC doesn't allow you to plug in IBM graphics cards, memory, etc., nor does it run on its own processor without slowdown of the "real" computer. -- Gibberish Amiga 3000 owner/fanatic is spoken Contact don@brahms.udel.edu for more information. here. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (12/09/90)
To awnser your question, yes, you can stick two floppies, a 105HD, in addition to a CPU card, bridgeboard (it you so choose), extra memory (if 18 megs wasn't enough), and a video card into a 3000... That is a really dense machine... ;)
schweige@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil (jeffrey schweiger) (12/09/90)
In article <22055@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > >Mach, with its 4.3BSD compatibility, is Posix-compliant. As for federal >procurement, there is talk that NASA has bought 5000 of the new NeXTs. >InfoWorld, I think it was, reports the CIA is interested in the NeXTs because >of its DSP chip. NeXT is going heavily into the government market. I can't verify the above. Has 4.3BSD been evaluated as POSIX-compliant? It predates the POSIX standard. But, it should also be noted that 4.3BSD is one of the building blocks of SVR4. Regarding the government buys noted above, I'm curious as to further details. I don't recall seeing mention of such an award in Federal Computer Week. Also with respect to government buys, a contract was recently awarded for about $500K worth of workstations for the CS department here, NeXT didn't submit a bid. Regarding NeXT corporate stability remarked upon in another post, is NeXT publicly traded, and if so, under what symbol? I couldn't find a listing for NeXT in S&P Online. In any event, I think we can agree that both the Amiga and NeXT lines include capable machines, which, in general are directed at _different_ market niches. How about a truce? -- ******************************************************************************* Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil *******************************************************************************
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/09/90)
> SoftPC doesn't allow you to plug in IBM graphics cards, memory, etc., >nor does it run on its own processor without slowdown of the "real" >computer. A NeXT comes with 8 MB RAM, mininum, plus virtual memory. Adding on IBM memory chips wouldn't be useful considering that PC software is designed to run on systems with less than a 1 MB of RAM. And heavy-duty AT apps take two, or at most four MB of RAM. As for IBM graphics cards, they may be useful for some. But the NeXT itself is much better graphical environment than the PC, and it already comes with the hardware to take advantage of it (though no color for less than $5000). The NeXT has the SCSI and serial ports for other types of IBM add-ons. True, SoftPC will take up CPU cycles. But how many apps will one user be running anyway? And with 15-20 Mips to spend, you could run a fair number of MS-DOS apps on a NeXT before large performance impact. One thing you will be able to do that you couldn't do on a traditional PC or with a MS-DOS bridgecard, and that's run several MS-DOS applications at once in separate windows on the NeXT. This is because SoftPC will run as just another Unix process, and you can have multiple SoftPCs (Unix processes) running at one time. IBM PC owners, eat your hearts out :-).
dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) (12/10/90)
In article <21970@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >>I wouldn't be surprised to see an A3000/40 debut in the next few months. > >Don't jump the gun. The A3000/30 hasn't officialy debuted yet. Yes, the >machine is available to education buyers/developers. But they haven't >finished the OS yet. I'm not gonna get into the NeXT <-> Amiga warfare, but stating that the '030 Amiga 3000 hasn't oficially been debuted yet is blatant misinformation. True, the OS isn't in ROM yet, but the actual A3000 debut in Canada was some time in April (3rd I think). Our dealer (the one I work for) has had a 3000 since some time in the middle of the summer. So much for public unavailabity. Colin DeWolfe dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca dewolfe@iris1.ucis.dal.ca Coming to you from a 'currently publicly unavailable' A3000. >
dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) (12/10/90)
Oops, in my last post I said the debut in Canada was in April. It was really May. Colin DeWolfe dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca dewolfe@iris1.ucis.dal.ca
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew W. Pierce) (12/10/90)
In article <22048@well.sf.ca.us>, yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > > You're getting to be one of the main reasons I'm sticking around the Amiga > newsgroup. Your postings will do nothing but get more irate NeXTers to > post to the newsgroup. If you're serious about clearing us out.... > shut up. Above written by the ever-so-childish Young-Kyu Koo. I am growing very tired of the worthless dravel that I have been reading lately on this news group. I read this group to learn more about the Amiga, not about NeXT. We have 2 NeXT cubes here at EWU, but they are almost NEVER used because of lack of support, complexity of use ( you must mount the file system if you want to access your account on the SUN network ), continual corruption of their optical drives, and general slowness of operation. The most useful thing that I saw anyone do was to turn on that lovely sound sampling system and proceed to record several seconds of fake gagging and wretching sounds, and boy, when you played it back it sounded as if the machine was gagging and wretching!! Not a real useful device purchases by someone in administration who didn't know what he was buying. From what I have seen of the NeXT in our lab, and from what I have read by the immature Young-Kyu Koo, I can say without a doubt that I will never purchase an NeXT, and I will probably have a negative outlook on them for the rest of my natural life, no matter how good they get. This discussion of NeXT vs A3000 has turned from a thread to a rope and I wish that it would stop. I want to learn about the Amiga, not the NeXT, so please, grow up Young-Kyu Soo. Sorry about the rantings, but I have grown so fond of this news group and hate to see it turned into a shouting match by a twerp like Young-Kyu Soo. I don't know about the rest of you, but Young-Kyu Soo says he'll go away if we shut up, and since he's not here in my presence to allow my to walk away from him, I guess that I'll just shut up so that he'll go home and play with his tinker toys. later, and don't put your keyboard in your mouth Mr. Soo Mathew Pierce
eddjp@edi386.UUCP ( Dewey Paciaffi ) (12/10/90)
In article <1990Dec8.043729.26041@engin.umich.edu> gilgalad@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ralph Seguin) writes: -First things first. I'm going to try to shift this to alt.religion.computers - -In article <23853@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.UUCP (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: - ->it's *second* floppy drive bay? You all must find one floppy drive (or ->zero for those with the optical disk) pretty limiting. - -Why is that? You never use the floppy for much other than installing new -software releases or backing up. Gee, it must be nice to never have to copy a set of floppies... ;-) -- Dewey Paciaffi ...!uunet!edi386!eddjp
huebner@aero.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) (12/11/90)
In article <10726@helios.TAMU.EDU>, n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) writes: |> |> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes |> >question. First to the A3000. Will an A3000+cd-rom= CDTV? Are the Sierra |> |> Actually, Any amiga +cd-rom= CDTV... As for the other questions, I am not |> as sure. I don't see how you could be possibly sure of what you DID post. The CDTV is not only not yet relased but delayed due to changes being implemented. Commenting on whether or not A3000+CDROM = CDTV is like trying to hit a moving target. One of the reasons I see that argues that it will not be == CDTV is that CDTV (according to Commodore as quoted in .info) will offer a CDTV "upgrade" path to CD-I standard (smart move, but might that hurt the number of developers interested in CDTV-only software?). CDTV will also have a modified OS, although this could be installed on a A3000 as well. I expect Commodore will offer CDTV-compatability packages for most of their machines, but I don't think it will be 100% (no upgrade path), and saying A3000+CDROM==CDTV implies that hooking up a Xetex CD-ROM will let you pop in Lemmings by Psygnosis (first ad I saw mentioning a CDTV version) and play away. This I really doubt. ----- Robert Huebner huebner@aerospace.aero.org -----
joseph@valnet.UUCP (Joseph P. Hillenburg) (12/11/90)
Would you think, that since C= has a wider audience, that there'd be more '040 Amigas pushed? If so, more '040's in general would sell, and then wouldn't we see Moto make C= a priority? -jph joseph@valnet.UUCP or ...!iuvax!valnet!joseph IMHO: The "H" means "honest"!
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/11/90)
In article <14701@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) writes: >Compare NeXTs to Amigas, fine. Don't compare 030 machines to >040 machines and expect to be surprised. Amiga 3000UXs beat on >68030 NeXTs. 68040 NeXTs beat on 68030 Amigas. Also, define what you mean by "beat". You're comparing two different kinds of systems; the A3000, a small 4-slot machine, vs. a NeXTStation, a closed "pizza box". There are very definite cost advantages to building a pizza box system, if all you're after is providing a basic system with perhaps a slightly expandable memory system and a high "bang/buck" factor. In buying a machine with an expansion bus, whether an A3000, a PClone, a NeXT Cube, a Mac II, or a whatever, you're making an investment in your changing needs. >What one forgets is that the Amiga 3000 is all ready to accept >the 040. It supports a "Coprocessor Slot", which is designed to allow 68040s to play with or instead of the main 68030 CPU. This slot also accomodates cache or 0 wait state memory, but I imagine 68040 boards will be the most popular add-ins. >Thom Cleland "It is easier -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/11/90)
In article <1990Dec5.194205.16892@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@libws3.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: >IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, THE AMIGA 3000 HAS A FULL SOCKET >When the 68040 is out, it should pop right in to where the 68030 was. The A3000 does not have a 68040 socket onboard. What it does have is a 32 bit Coprocessor Slot, and consideration in the board logic given to what a 68040 might want to do that a 68030 can't do. For instance, while the 68030 only supports burst cache line fetches, the A3000's onboard memory system supports cache line dumps as well, as does the '040. At the board designer's option, the 68040 can run synchronous with the motherboard at 16MHz or 25MHz, or it can run asynchronous at any clock speed. The motherboard's 68030 can be used or turned off, depending on how the coprocessor board and system software choose to treat things. This is the same basic approach we took with the A2000's Coprocessor slot, only we knew considerably more about the 68040 than we did about the 68030 at A2000 design time, and of course the '040 and '030 are much more bus compatible to start with than the '030 and 68000. A coprocessor board does, however, have to be designed by someone who knows what they're doing. There is a bit of interface logic needed for any coprocessor board, there are quite a few hardware options to choose from, the issue of on-board memory or cache, etc. >When this happens, the Amiga 3000 will run at 15-20 MIPS, will not require >the slow 68882, etc. Don't compare a 68030 with a 68040! Again, a 68040 system MAY run 15-20 MIPS, it may not. What Motorola says is what their marketing department considers possible, based on input from the technical people. And in my experience, they've been correct about what's possible in the past. If the 68040 systems that actually get built have as many wait states as the 68030 systems that got built, you won't see this performance in real life. >The Amiga 3000 should have a socketed 68030, with extra pins for "future >expansion". I take this to mean that they planned it to work with the 68040 >and the 68030. No, the 68030 isn't socketed, it's surface mounted and stays in place. You don't go plugging a 68040 into a 68030 socket. If you have to kludge it, you might build a 68040 board that could live in a 68030 socket, but that's going at it backwards -- the capability to live a nicely in the system as possible should be provided from the beginning. An expansion card connector like the A3000's 200 pin slot is designed to handle a plug-in card, the 68030's socket is not. >The designers are sure to know. We better! >David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3605 AMIGA Toto Productions DDD Men -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
dlt@locus.com (Dan Taylor) (12/11/90)
>The questions just keep on coming, so here are some more questions and answers: >>Where's the NeXT SVR4? >SVR4 doesn't exist as finished product. SVR4 is what is keeping the Amiga >3000ux from going into official release. BSD Unix is just fine, thank you. >And Mach is arguably the most advanced kernel around today (even taking SVR4 >into account). Having spent years debugging the student project code in bsd, I take serious exception to your comment "BSD Unix is just fine, thank you.". While bsd has some nice features, like sockets, and the history and job control of csh, it is also full of ideas that don't make it in the "real world". Small-block and variable-block-size filesystems end up wasting CPU time and disk space, for instance. The lack of error checking, and handling, makes bsd too buggy and vulnerable for commercial use. No commercial company is seriously advocating real bsd, rather, they include many of the features in their kernels. SysVr4 has sockets, and ksh has history and job control. (personally, I prefer a windowing environment) The companies that have been shipping real bsd, like DEC (not Sun), have now migrated to OSF. I'm glad you said "arguably", when refering to Mach. I have tried a "cube", and I believe that the SysVr4 kernel/environment will be more productive, for more people, than the Mach kernel/bsd environment. With curses, for serial terminals, and X, for graphical devices, SysVr4 has superior user interface capabilities, compared to bsd. And the ability to mount "foriegn" filesystems means that SysVr4 can take advantage of any real advances in filesystem technology. "Threads" can be simulated, although it's incredibly ugly to do so, but modules on Streams can perform nearly the same functions. >>Where's the NeXT Video Toaster? >The NeXT has the NeXTDimension. NeXTDimension is more like DeluxePaint, than Video Toaster. A Toaster- equipped Amiga is really the equivalent of a $100,000 video production system. You really should see the Toaster, if you are interested in video, or before making spurious comparisons. >>Where's the large NeXT installed user base? >I write software for the NeXT because I believe it will achieve a large user >base. It is still a machine in its infancy in terms of the marketplace. >Also the success of the NeXT is not measured in the numbers used for PCs. >The Amiga has a user base of 2,000,000 (according to one poster). If NeXT >were to achieve this figure, it would control 100% of the low-end workstation >market. If Jobs can maintain the agressive pricing, and still satisfy the profit requirements of the people who put up the money, NeXT will have a serious share of the market. However, since the low-end workstation market is already crowded with SysV 386's and 486's, a few A/UX Macs, lots of SPARC SLCs (with cheap, usable clones coming), and even some SysV Amigas, NeXT will be lucky to get 10% of the low-end market (betcha a nickel). I don't believe, as much as I like my Amiga, that it will be one the the high-share systems, either. Probably the (yuck) SPARCs will share it with the (yuck) 486s at about 40% each. >>What NeXT hardware is there with multiprocessing capabilities. >I assume you mean "parallel processing." The NeXT, thanks to Unix, is a >multiprocessing computer. As for "parallel processing," NeXT has yet to >take advantage of the parallel processing capabilities inherent in Mach. >But there is some talk about a parallel processing NeXT by the end of this >year. We're talking multiple 040s on one board running in concert. Some Amiga owners don't realize that the NeXT isn't a fancy Mac, and that Mach isn't a variant of Finder. I'm looking forward to well-integrated specialized processors, like vector, graphics, DSP, array, and neural, than multi-processing. Even Mach is still somewhat I/O-bound, so more processors just would wait for I/O faster. And two, three, or four '040s probably aren't going to have enough work to do, except in cases where a specialized processor could do the job better. Check your system stats for the real utilization of the CPU. >>Where is the inexpensive software? >Much of the most useful software for the NeXT comes free with the machin: >a commercial quality wordprocessor, a revolutionary spreadsheet, the >Digital Librarian, Interface Builder, Mathematica (for educational buyers), >etc. NeXT software is comparable to Mac software in pricing. There are >exceptions of course. There are outrageously priced high-end software >packages for workstations and there are great low-price deals to educational >buyers. Lighthouse Design is selling their Diagram! program for $10 to >students. It retails for $249 (yes, you save $239! if you're a student). >Informix is selling Wingz with better than a 50% discount to students >. I think the figure is something like $150 for a product that retails at >$700. There are over a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT freeware/shareware. >Check out cs.orst.edu and nova.cc.purdue.edu in particular (I'm not sure >about the purdue net address). The "most useful" software you describe has a limited, but loyal following. Those of us no longer in the university, either as students or faculty, don't see much of special interest. (nor do we get the good prices) The word processor is OK, but no big deal. Wingz is nice, too. Actually, though, Interface Builder is no better than several of the Amiga and Mac window generators, and you're limited, at least when I looked, to Objective C, which doesn't make code as good as an experienced, competent programmer would. >>Any third-party software to plug into the expansion slots of those few >>NeXTs which actually have them? >There's the Ariel QuintProcessor which gives you five additional DSP chips >on one board. There is Cube Digital I/O which gives you 64 channels of >digital I/O, a Centronics-compatible parallel port, and other goodies. >There's the Dazzl Model16/12 Analog to Digital Converter. There are also >many products that take adge of the built-in NeXT DSP port, the two >serial ports, the new SCSI-2 port, the built-in thin and twisted-pair >Ethernet, the mic jack AND built-in mic, et al. I think you answered the question he MEANT to ask. Although, I can't think of any "wonderful" hardware for the E-net connectors. >>The NeXT Fred Fish collection? >Don't know what this is. PD and shareware. You answered this above. >>All-NeXT trade shows? >None of these yet. But we do get to see Steve Jobs special brand of dog and >pony shows :-). I once asked a NeXT rep why I should buy a cube, instead of an A3000. His reply? "We have Steve." And that's the only answer he could come up with. >>Mac or PC emulation >SoftPC 2.0 claims to be 100% AT-compatible and claims to run MS-DOS software >at 12-16 MHz 286 speeds. Not bad for an emulator, eh? As for Mac emulation, >I don't think anyone's working on it. Heck, I ran a 2.5MHz-equiavalent XT on a box-stock 7MHz 68000 in my A1000. >>How about an inexpensive version that everyone can afford? >The NeXT is not a low-end PC. Do you want to play games, or do you want a >workstation? At any rate, for $3000-$3500, a student can buy a NeXT for the >price of a Mac SE/30 and less than the price of the Amiga 3000ux. >Of course, I'd also love to see a PC-priced NeXT. But there's a price you >pay for power and features. It's not the machine for everyone. But it is >the machine I'm buying. I think you really missed the point, here. I can run (well, walk) programs on an A500, when you don't have a lot of money to spend, then move up to a more powerful model, without loss of functionality. So, my modeling program may take DAYS, instead of hours, but I can still run the model. NeXT lacks a $1000-1500 entry-level system. -- * Dan Taylor * The opinions expressed are my own, and in no way * * dlt@locus.com * reflect those of Locus Computing Corporation. *
scott@next-5.gac.edu (Scott Hess) (12/11/90)
In the interests of saving those kill files, scott uses a standardized Subject: line. As another (hopefull) saving feature, he replies to a lot of stuff all at the same time. I've been hearing about c.s.a problems on c.s.n. It is getting annoying. Now, before you come down on me for being in the same boat as Mr. Young: In article <21968@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > You say that the 3000ux will "crank out 5 mips", then say the 040 NeXT >will "crank out 15-20". Figures courtesy of Motorola, you say. I have no >reason to doubt you, so I won't say anything about that, except for being >interested in how such an answer was arrived at. Don't ask me. I let the big boys do the benchmarks. At any rate, those are Motorola figures. And several Unix experts have done their own benchmarks (check out the NeXT newsgroup for details) and they confirm that the 040 is three to four times faster than the 030. You trust Moto? Show me Specmarks. Not trivial barf done by the CPU vendor themselves. > I do, however, take exception to the assertions concerning the >MFLOPS of both machines. "nearly 3" and "will be lucky to approach 1" isn't >precise enough for this arguement. They suggest that you don't know for sure, >you're just pulling out some numbers which sound nice. Don't post something >you can't quote with better references, especially if you're knocking a >computer in its' home newsgroup. You're going to get flamed. Now, if you'd >post real numbers along with their sources, that wouldn't be quite so bad.... I didn't want to bore you with the details. Then please stop. Motorola claims 2.8 MFLOPs for their FPU (which is built into the main processor). Home-grown benchmarks done by several in the NeXT newsgroup get numbers from 2.5 to 3.3 MFLOPS. Again, those are homegrown, and probably have nothing to do with anything. The posts themselves stated as much. My question: Why attack my numbers without numbers of your own? He was justified. If I were to say "10,000 cattle stampeded through my bedroom this morning", you need not come up with numbers to label me wrong. Run OpenLook on a 030 Amiga, and then tell me that it is faster than NeXTStep on an 030 NeXT. At any rate, anything concerning the 040 Amigas is pure conjecture. The 040 NeXTs are real. The 040 Amigas are pre-vaporware. NextStations are only psuedo-real. They are becoming more solid every day, but still . . . OpenLook on an Amiga will more than likely outperform NextStep where it counts. Raw X will do really quite well. Remember that Amigas are graphics gods . . . The 105 MB hard drive for the NeXT does indeed come with nearly 40 MB of bundled software (not including the operating system). The 340 MB hard disk does indeed come with nearly 200 MB of bundled software. True, Mathematic is not free to every NeXT buyer, but it IS free to all educational buyers, and I assume you and most of Usenet would be among these (of course, there are some who are not). This is like saying that your new car comes with four bundled tires. Calling the operating system itself bundled software is sort of unfair. If it _weren't_ bundled, the basic machine would be _entirely_ unusable. As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to go. Where's that Amiga DSP? Those Amiga DMA channels? That Amiga Mach with parallel processing capabilities? That 2.88 MB floppy drive compatible with both 720K and 1.44 MB MS-DOS formats? Yes, note the large amount of programs out there using the DSP. The NeXT does not use DMA to good advantage. In many instances, it was faster to do DSP stuff on the '030, because there isn't DMA to the DSP - there's a channel for it, it's not used. This is fixed in the future. The NeXT does not have parallel processing capabilities. The NeXT Unix kernel is built on Mach, which in the future will have parallel processing capabilities, but does not at this time. The NeXT version of Mach is not equal to the CMU version (they lag aways, and also have added some stuff of their own). The NeXT hardware certainly does not support parallel processing capabilities, even if a new Mach _were_ to come out. The 2.88 drives will be consumer market items soon. This is a non-issue. Besides, you show me yours, and I'll show you mine. garnett@cs.utexas.edu (John William Garnett) writes: Not necessarily. Users who have the new NeXT 2.0 operating system installed on 030 NeXT's claim almost twice the perceived performance ^^^^^^^^^ [I haven't seen any benchmarks to confirm this]. This just goes to show that the operating system plays a non-trivial role in the performance of a machine. Out of curiousity have there been any This is just certain parts of the OS. Apps created under 2.0 will load faster, and some apps have been rewritten to offload processing. But, if you take your general 1.0 app, and copy it onto your disk, it will not run any faster. Perceived performance!=real performance. An Amiga running AmigaDos will _heavily_ outperform a NeXT on the same processor platform. It's because they aren't designed for the same things, for the most part (this is mostly concerned with the display code, though Unix will also throw in quite a bit of overhead). OK, now for some disclaimers. As some of you know, I'm a NeXT developer, who's developed quite a number of programs. I've been on the machine for a year and a half, nearly fulltime the entire time. I know a fair amount about the machine, and I can honestly state that the NeXT has warts. Whoa! Amazing! But, I've never seen a computer without warts. The Amiga is a very nice machine. I spent most of the time between the announcement of the a1000 and the point at which I got sucked into Unix drooling over Amigas. I never could afford them, though (not because they were expensive, I just had no money). Now, I've got the money, and am leapfrogging to NeXTs. Which brings up a good point - I can imagine selling Amigas as a consumer item ( :-] ). I cannot imagine selling NeXTs as a consumer item. Having worked with my NeXT at home for quite some time, I can safely state that non-Unix weenies need not apply. Sure, you _can_ work it without knowing Unix, but it is not a Mac nor an Amiga. Don't get me wrong - you don't need to know how to run crypt(3) in your head, but you do need some small amount of experience, or a friend to spend a couple hours helping you out. NeXT are not Amigas, not do NeXTs compete with Amigas. NeXTs compete with Suns and DECs (and that whatsamacallit, that IBM thingymajig). Fairly well, too, at the low end. But, when you start talking SparcStation 2s and DECStation 3100s, you've lost the NeXT. Amigas, meanwhile, compete with the PC and the Mac, and very admirably at that. What is really needed is for Amigans and NeXTans (yuck, sounds slimey, I'll go with it, though) to "Band together, and drive the Evil, and the Ugly, Awwaaayy!". Oops. I mean, I think that the Amiga is a natural for home use, but wouldn't want to be using it on a network, where Unix is King. Then again, I can use a NeXT at home, but neither of my roomates could justify that expense. (Being a developer, I can). Lastly, I invite Mr. Young over to comp.sys.next. Your time could be better spent defending the NeXT against Sun than assulting people who made a Right Choice which doesn't match yours. And, off I goooooo . . . -- scott hess scott@gac.edu Independent NeXT Developer GAC Undergrad <I still speak for nobody> "Tried anarchy, once. Found it had too many constraints . . ." "Buy `Sweat 'n wit '2 Live Crew'`, a new weight loss program by Richard Simmons . . ."
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (12/11/90)
In article <SCOTT.90Dec10195939@next-5.gac.edu> scott@next-5.gac.edu (Scott Hess) writes: > > {lots of good stuff about NeXT and Amiga computers deleted} >NeXT are not Amigas, not do NeXTs compete with Amigas. NeXTs >compete with Suns and DECs (and that whatsamacallit, that IBM >thingymajig). Fairly well, too, at the low end. But, when >you start talking SparcStation 2s and DECStation 3100s, you've >lost the NeXT. Amigas, meanwhile, compete with the PC and the >Mac, and very admirably at that. { More good stuff deleted (about the Amiga being "graphic Gods")} >can use a NeXT at home, but neither of my roomates could justify >that expense. (Being a developer, I can). >-- >scott hess scott@gac.edu >Independent NeXT Developer GAC Undergrad ><I still speak for nobody> Thank you for writing what was probably the most unbiased argument for both the Amiga and NeXT camps... I am sure everyone who has posted something to this comparision of the two systems has written some half truths and innaccuracies... Again thank you for clearing the air about the Amiga and NeXT computers... Finnaly a clear rational mind in the heated passion of a really emotional argument... Raoul Rodriguez "People may not believe what you say, but they will allways believe what you do" - Unknown
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/11/90)
I wrote (in e-mail which was inadvertently posted): >>You're getting to be one of the main reasons I'm sticking around the Amiga >>newsgroup. Your postings will do nothing but get more irate NeXTers to >>post to the newsgroup. If you're serious about clearing us out... >>shut up. mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Matthew Pierce) writes: >The above written by the ever-so-childish Young-Kyu Koo. First, those quoted comments are about the angriest I have used in e-mail or posting. It was in response to a posting that used employed some name-calling. It was intended to be e-mail, since I do not believe in flaming anyone in public. As for e-mail, I do not believe in using profanity or resorting to ad hominem attacks. I've been screamed at and been called every name under the sun in e-mail arising from this thread. There has also been more than a little name- calling in public. Many of you may feel it is justified. But I believe it to be unconstructive at best. The NeXT vs. Amiga thread is not a big deal. As fanatical as I am about correcting misinformation about the NeXT, I don't think it's an issue that calls for screaming and hair-pulling. Certainly, it doesn't call for hatred. This is, I hope, my last posting to articles in this vein. I'll continue to answer questions about the NeXT asked by Amiga users. I will continue to correct gross misinformation about the NeXT. But I will let personal flames flicker and die of their own accord.
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/11/90)
In <SCOTT.90Dec10195939@next-5.gac.edu>, scott@next-5.gac.edu (Scott Hess) writes: > [ an excellent, rational article on the merits and positioning of > both the Amiga and the NeXT ] Though I found a few things in it that I would take slight exception to, all in all he was on the mark in what he said. >Lastly, I invite Mr. Young over to comp.sys.next. Your time could >be better spent defending the NeXT against Sun than assulting >people who made a Right Choice which doesn't match yours. > >And, off I goooooo . . . Thanks, Scott. It was refreshing. -larry -- The only things to survive a nuclear war will be cockroaches and IBM PCs. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/11/90)
huebner@aero.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) writes about A3000+CDROM: > One of the reasons I see that argues that it will not be == CDTV is > that CDTV (according to Commodore as quoted in .info) will offer a CDTV > "upgrade" path to CD-I standard (smart move, but might that hurt the > number of developers interested in CDTV-only software?). That would be great, tho probably expensive because of the totally different video hardware between CDTV/CD-I. Do you recall which issue that was in? Was it a true quote from CBM, or just a rumor column? > I expect Commodore will offer CDTV-compatability packages for most of their > machines, but I don't think it will be 100% (no upgrade path), I would guess that programs which didn't rely on CDTV hardware (the personality RAM module or front display comes to mind) should work okay (?). thx - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
huebner@aero.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) (12/12/90)
In article <1990Dec11.094637.26528@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu>, kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: |> huebner@aero.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) writes about A3000+CDROM: |> |> > One of the reasons I see that argues that it will not be == CDTV is |> > that CDTV (according to Commodore as quoted in .info) will offer a CDTV |> > "upgrade" path to CD-I standard (smart move, but might that hurt the |> > number of developers interested in CDTV-only software?). |> |> That would be great, tho probably expensive because of the totally |> different video hardware between CDTV/CD-I. Do you recall which issue |> that was in? Was it a true quote from CBM, or just a rumor column? |> It was in a rumor column, but stated as such (direct quote) "Commodore has announced that CDTV will be "upgradeable" to CD-I when that chip set is available." -Amazing Dec '90 Which seemed pretty direct, but could be wrong. Another quote from the article: "Another thing that's delaying CDTV is an attempt to be competetive with CD-I, which now offers full-motion video and CD-quality sound." Which is untrue. An acquaintance working on CD-I said that, although full-screen full-motion video was their intention, serious problems have surfaced with this. As for CD-Quality sound, I can't see the serious advantage to putting 16-bit audio in the machine when you can software-control its audio playback from the CD itself (which is, of course, CD quality). ---- Robert Huebner huebner@aerospace.aero.org "It's gonna rain in LA" ----
MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (12/12/90)
In article <22055@well.sf.ca.us>, yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) says: > >>Where's [the NeXT's] NTSC compatible video output? > >Don't know about NTSC compatibility, but the video i/o on the NeXTDimension >is something to see. Realtime JPEG compression, the 80 MFLOP i860 to drive >the display, the ability to hook up to a VCR, laserdisc, Camcorder, et al >without additional boards. Seeing as the NeXTDimension's price is larger than the GNP's of many third world countries :-) , this doesn't help me much. I can acquire an A2000, Video Toaster, Genlock, and some spare memory and HD for ^$3500... it even comes with AmigaVision, fer cryin' out loud. The NeXTDimensions will have some stiff competition indeed. /Mark "Remixed for Common Household Appliances" Sachs - MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu\ |DISCLAIMER? You've GOT to be kidding, right? || // AMIGA || | | "Haven't they heard we won the war? || \X/ Power || | \== "What do they keep on fighting for?" -- B. Joel, LENINGRAD =============/
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/12/90)
In article <1747@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil> schweige@cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeff Schweiger) writes: >In article <21993@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to >go. Where's that Amiga DSP? Those Amiga DMA channels? Some clarifications are in order. As for DSP, we didn't find DSP far enough evolved to build it in at this point. You can get REAL DSP, as in floating point, on an expansion card built by one of the third parties. Like the CPU, once you pick a DSP, you're locked into that instruction set. When DSP has advanced enough to be useful to the average system user, it might go on the motherboard, assuming there's nothing better to spend that money on. NeXT, for instance, would have done much better installing a display processor to make Display PostScript run faster, at least on the original cube. That would be appreciated by everyone using the box, not just audio people. As for DMA channels, we've had considerable DMA channel use since the A1000 came out -- there are essentially separate asynchronous DMA channels for hard disk, each expansion slot, and the Coprocessor slot in the A3000, and synchronous Chip bus DMA channel slots for floppy disk, audio, display, sprites, memory refesh, copper, and blitter. There's nothing new in the NeXT in terms of DMA. >That Amiga Mach with parallel processing capabilities? Is the NeXT Kernel the multiprocessing verison of Mach? If so, where are the multiple processors? A board full of '030s, if it could have been used by the NeXT OS, would have solved NeXT's speed problems much earlier than the '040. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/12/90)
In article <22047@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >The questions just keep on coming, so here are some more questions and answers: >>What NeXT hardware is there with multiprocessing capabilities. >I assume you mean "parallel processing." No, you're confused. They mean multiprocessing, which is virtually the same thing as parallel processing. Simply saying "multiprocessing" usually has the connotation of homogenous multiprocessing -- "I have five '030s here, and I schedule the next task on the first one that frees up". This isn't in common use on small systems yet, though heterogenous multiprocessing is getting quite common -- "I'll have the blitter draw this line, then the DMAC get this file for me, then fetch a block of data from my ethernet processor, then get the serial packets the IOP on my multiserial board boxed up nicely for me", etc. >The NeXT, thanks to Unix, is a multiprocessing computer. That's multitasking. Task swaping. The NeXT has a single processor (it really has the DSP as well, but that doesn't enter into any system work), and it schedules multiple tasks on that processor. There is a version of the Mach kernel at CMU that supports task scheduling on multiple processors, thus, multiprocessing. I don't believe that capability is in the NeXT kernel at the moment. It is also not in the UNIX kernel at the moment, either. AT&T does expect to support multiprocessing beyond SV.4, and its not unreasonable to expect NeXT to support it either in a future release, though that'll only be useful on the "cube" machines. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
scott@next-5.gac.edu (Scott Hess) (12/12/90)
In article <16455@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <21993@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > As for matching NeXT's price/features, the Amiga has a very long way to >go. Where's that Amiga DSP? Those Amiga DMA channels? Some clarifications are in order. As for DSP, we didn't find DSP far enough evolved to build it in at this point. You can get REAL DSP, as in floating point, on an expansion card built by one of the third parties. Like the CPU, once you pick a DSP, you're locked into that instruction set. When DSP has advanced enough to be useful to the average system user, it might go on the motherboard, assuming there's nothing better to spend that money on. NeXT, for instance, would have done much better installing a display processor to make Display PostScript run faster, at least on the original cube. That would be appreciated by everyone using the box, not just audio people. The correct question is "Where are those DSP apps on the NeXT?" Anyone can buy a DSP for the Amiga. Considering that programs to use it are probably going to cost bucks, you might as well buy a DSP in the bargain. The locked instruction set is noticable when you notice that the new NeXTs have 56001s, yet, rather than 96001s. 56001s suck, because that's not floating point, that's fixed point. Sure, it's great for sound but it's not so good for running ray-traced Mandelbrot sets on. Besides, it only has 24k of memory (though I hear the new ones can get more). Don't put a DSP on your motherboard until you can support 256k, C=. Agreed wrt "better to install a display processor". That was one of the biggest faults of the Mac (everything done on the main CPU), and is one of the biggest faults of the NeXT. The '040 helps, but now it's even worse - that windowserver will be swapping your code out of cache. I think that NeXT should talk C= into some sort of cross-licensing. C= gets the appkit and DPS, NeXT gets Angus and Bertrand and Carmen, and whatever else those chips are named :-) You know, the blitter and all. >That Amiga Mach with parallel processing capabilities? Is the NeXT Kernel the multiprocessing verison of Mach? If so, where are the multiple processors? A board full of '030s, if it could have been used by the NeXT OS, would have solved NeXT's speed problems much earlier than the '040. Correct question here is "Where is the multi-processor NeXT?" Enough said? -- scott hess scott@gac.edu Independent NeXT Developer GAC Undergrad <I still speak for nobody> "Tried anarchy, once. Found it had too many constraints . . ." "Buy `Sweat 'n wit '2 Live Crew'`, a new weight loss program by Richard Simmons . . ."
dvp@sequent.com (Dan Vander Ploeg) (12/13/90)
Dave Haynie writes: > AT&T does expect to support multiprocessing beyond SV.4, and its not > unreasonable to expect NeXT to support it either in a future release, though > that'll only be useful on the "cube" machines. May we hope that the Unix Amigas could also support multiprocessing? Or is this impossible without a major change in your architecture? -- // UUCP: ...!{tektronix|ogicse}!sequent!dvp _______ =====// =========================================================| # | \\ // Internet: dvp@sequent.com | | ==\ /============================================================| | Dan Vander Ploeg -------
yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (12/13/90)
scott@gac.edu (Scott Hess) writes: >I invite Mr. Young over to comp.sys.next. Your time could be better >spent defending the NeXT against Sun than assaulting people who made >a Right Choice which doesn't match yours. I never had the intention to argue that Amiga owners have made anything but a great choice in buying their Amigas. I really think the Amiga is a better PC than anything out there (I have a Mac SE, but I bought it without knowing anything about the Amigas at the time). I want to apology to those Amiga fans that I've offended with the condescending tone in many of my earlier postings. At the time, I thought I was fighting fire with fire, condescension with condescension, but I overdid it more than a bit and helped make the situation much worse. Sorry. I think the NeXT is no threat to the Amiga. As the Amiga is not a direct threat to the NeXT. The Amiga 3000UX and the NeXTStations will be competing with each other, but there is plenty of room for competition and success in the fast growing low-end workstation market. It's kind of gotten loss in the shuffle, but my main intention here has been defend the NeXT against those who trash it unfairly. I'm not here to sell anyone a NeXT computer, nor to belittle the Amiga (which is a great machine). I wanted to point out to certain posters that their criticism of the NeXT might be misguided. I used the wrong tactics sometimes, used too many sharp-tongued comments about the Amiga. But, by and large, I tried to keep my postings informational and fact-filled. It seems that no two people will every agree on everything. Though both Scott Hess and I are NeXT software developers, we disagree on some major points. But, then, NeXTers, or "NeXTans", or whatever we are, are not much different than Amigans, Mac-ers, PC-ers, whatever. We each have our petty quarrels and battles over dogma. Recently, there has been a full-blown religious war over whether click-to-focus (on a window) is worse than point-to-focus in comp.sys.next. Of course, nothing was resolved. And it looks like little will be resolved here. Amiga fans remain Amiga fans, NeXT fans remain NeXT fans, and there is still misinformation being posted about the NeXT and the Amiga from both sides. I want to publically thank those Amiga-philes who've been friendly to me in their e-mail. A few of those who first came at me with four-letter epithets I now enjoy chatting with thru e-mail. It's amazing how reasonable and understated we computer fanatics can be when we're not battling each other on Usenet. Long live the NeXT. Long live the Amiga. As for IBM....that's another flame war...
akcs.bill@point.UUCP (Bill Wolff) (12/18/90)
Hey! I am still using my Timex and VIC-20, don't laugh! The VIC-20 has BIG letters that I can read 20 feet away. Although only one sentence fits on the screen too. The Timex... did you ever try fast mode? hahahaha... <BW>
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/18/90)
In article <DVP.90Dec12131150@crg8.sequent.com> dvp@sequent.com (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >May we hope that the Unix Amigas could also support multiprocessing? Or is >this impossible without a major change in your architecture? The only thing in the way of homogenous multiprocessing on Amigas is software. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/19/90)
In article <276d2fad-157d.21comp.amiga-1@point.UUCP> akcs.bill@point.UUCP (Bill Wolff) writes: >Hey! I am still using my Timex and VIC-20, don't laugh! We're still using Timexs here in C= engineering. Not much of a computer, but beyond a doubt the best damn door stop you'll ever get for $10. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I can't drive 55" -Sammy Hagar
unhd (Jason W Nyberg) (12/20/90)
In article <21929@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: > >At any rate, the new 040 NeXTs have started shipping and the machine is >damn fast. It is in an entirely different class, performance-wise, than >the Amiga 3000ux. No kidding, Sherlock. Just like the Amiga 3000 with an '040 will be in an entirely different performance class than the Amiga 3000ux w/'030. Duh. Are we a little insecure, NeXT people? I've been looking at comp.sys.next, and I haven't seen any Amiga owners trying furiously to downplay the NeXT. Amiga owners aren't out to "getcha" you know. So why don't you all take a valium and sit back for a minute and think before you post your little plugs. -Jason Nyberg
jerry@truevision.com (Jerry Thompson) (12/20/90)
In article <10725@helios.TAMU.EDU> n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) writes: >Tell you what, nothing impresses a prof more than a slick looking video that >you slapped together in about and hour. Case in point, in m ROTC class, I had At last years University of Illinois Engineering Open House there were many Amigas used to create loops of animation and text illustrating the principals in the exhibits. A couple of the exhibits were actual projects done on an Amiga. There was also a C64 but I didn't see what it was doing ;^) -- Jerry Thompson | // checks ___________ | "I'm into S&M, I loved the peace and solitude | \\ // and | | | | Sarcasm and so much, I invited my friends. | \X/ balances /_\ | /_\ | Mass Sarcasm."
palm@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Thomas Palm / Chemie) (01/09/91)
Need urgently a VT100-Emulation with a really fast Kermit (more than ca. 100 Bytes/s like the XPR-Kermit with Vlt from Fish 410). Who can help an totally dissapointed Amiga-User ? Please E-mail to palm@rhrk.uni-kl.de Thanks in advance