dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (05/06/87)
:This has been my complaint all along. Too much of a "Me Too" mentality. :in terms of product, the hardware is MAHVELOUS DAHLING but the OS is :sh*t. Amiga is no longer at the top of the technology heap. Religious :wars about Mac II and Amiga may abound but the average user will :still feel more comfortable with a larger company and larger software :catalogue. If the is not a more serious focus on standards (read: UNIX) :the Amiga is doomed. Of all the personal computer operating systems, the Amiga's OS is currently the best of the crop. Certainly better than the ST's, which is one of the worst MSDOS-like clones in existance (obivously rushed), and as far as I know, IBM's OS/2 has nothing like the modular integration of the Amiga's low-level Libraries and Devices. :The 2000 is EVERYTHING the 1000 should have been. Without a doubt :Apple will lower the price of the Mac II to the point where the :additional cost of the Mac II will become meaningless in light of :the lack of Amiga software. Don't count on it. -Matt
jxc@rayssd.UUCP (05/07/87)
:The 2000 is EVERYTHING the 1000 should have been. Without a doubt :Apple will lower the price of the Mac II to the point where the :additional cost of the Mac II will become meaningless in light of :the lack of Amiga software. > Don't count on it. > -Matt I think you're right, Matt. Besides, Apple would probably tell you that the Mac II is ALREADY priced at a cost that is meaningless in light of the lack of Amiga software. Don't forget folks, Apple is aiming the Mac II at the Business PC market. These are the people who don't do (read 'buy') much of anything that isn't off-the-shelf (read 'expensive') in terms of PC hardware, applications and software. Business people will buy the Mac II for its software and business graphics; and the IBM PC and PS2 for the software base (and that real warm feeling, you know, like when you've pissed on yourself). Most individuals who will buy the A2000 use PC's at work and like to work and hack at home. A few small businesses with aggressive entrepreneurial types might buy them for their companies, but I don't see a large market there. Overall, the A2000 will probably be perceived as an EXPENSIVE clone. Nope, the Amiga market is in the A500 (It's cheap, I can carry it to work, carry it home, and I DON'T WANT PC compatibility!). Large and medium sized businesses want large, safe (Hah, can you say, "PS-screw"?) and expensive standards like the IBM PC and the Mac and they are willing to pay big $$ for that shiny "emperor's clothing". Disclaimers (i.e., flame-retardant material): 1. Personal These views are mine, I made them up, I like them, and I will probably keep them. I am sorry if I offended anybody, said anything off-color or expressed my views in terms that were inappropriate in any way. If restitution can be made to offended and injured individuals without personal cost or effort, then I will make such restitution. In advance, please accept my heartmostfelt sympathy and understanding to you, your immediate family, your relatives and any other damaged parties. 2. Corporate Again, these views are mine, I made them up, I like them, and I will probably keep them. My company should not be held directly responsible for these views, the state of the economy, personal tragedy or nuclear winter. So far my company has no idea that I have these or any other ideas, so I will continue to enjoy this false sense of security. Excuse me, there's a knock on the door... AHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRGGGGH! ______________________________________________________________ | Jeffrey Jay Clesius, Raytheon Submarine Signal Division | | 1847 West Main Road, Mail Stop 188 | | Portsmouth, RI 02871-1087 (401) 847-8000 (X4015) | | { allegra | gatech | mirror | raybed2 } -----\ | | { linus | ihnp4 | uiucdcs } --------------->!rayssd!jxc | |______________________________________________________________| -- "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't change a horse's ass!"
TAAB5@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Marc Barrett) (01/09/91)
From a previous message, quoting an article in the Wall Street Journal...
Commodore Replaces Head Of U.S. Unit
Commodore International has replaced the president
of its U.S. subsidiary, Harold Copperman, with
James Dionne, who most recently headed the
company's Canadian unit. The computer maker also
plans to lay off 10 percent to 15 percent of its
600-person U.S. work force in a reorganization
designed to boost profit margins.
(Wall Street Journal, 1/8/91, pg. B4)
Commodore's problem is that all of the Commodore managers are only
concerned with short-term profits. They are not at all concerned about
long-term profits, or whether or not Commodore will even exist as a
major company in the distant future.
When Commodore announced that they had made only a tiny profit for
the past year, and that Amiga sales were up but not to the levels that the
management wanted, I started predicting that Copperman would be out by
Spring. I was half right -- Copperman is still in the company, but is
no longer as much of an influence that he was in the past. My reasoning
then is that the management would not be happy that Copperman's company
reforms and increased funding on research & development and marketing
had not produced immediate results, and that he would be fired for it.
In a way I was right: anybody but Copperman would have resigned rather
than take a demotion. This is really too bad, but it falls right in
line with what I've been predicting for a long time. Commodore's
managers just do not know how to run a company with a long-range vision.
They know only of short-term profits, and if the profits are low they
get nervous and start cutting R&D and marketing. This is why Commodore
has never had a long-running ad campaign, this is why Commodore has
never spent more than 3% of total sales on R&D (in 1985-1988, they spent
less than 2% of total sales on R&D), and this is why the Amiga is no
longer the influence on the computer industry that it once was.
Under Copperman, the company made some reforms, such as hiring more
people for software and hardware R&D, but it looks like these reforms
are going to be very quickly reversed. With 15% cut-backs in the staff
at West Chester, it is likely that all of those people who have been
hired from job noticed posted on CSA in the past year will be fired
very soon. It also means that even the very minor increase amount of
funding that Copperman has spent on R&D will be cut to again below 2%.
What does this mean for the future? It means that the Amiga will
decline in influence in the computer industry. Savor these times,
because the Amiga is at it's peak today. From now on the Amiga will
do nothing but decline. Commodore will cut research and development
of Amiga hardware and software, seaking to improve short-term profits.
Commodore will also likely spend even less on marketing than they
are now (hard to imagine, really).
AMIGA -- Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!!
-MB-
lrg7030@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren Rittle) (01/09/91)
> AMIGA -- Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!!
MB, can't you at least post this crap in the right group...
-MB- -- Yesterday's Ramblings, FOREVER!!!
--
``In short, this is the absolute coolest computer device ever invented!''
-Tom Denbo speaking about The VideoToaster by NewTek
``Think about NewTek's VideoToaster! Now think about the Amiga!''
Loren J. Rittle lrg7030@uxa.cso.uiuc.edubenno@sandstorm.Berkeley.EDU (Ben Carroll) (01/09/91)
Ho Ho Ho! Santa has sent us a late gift of one final flame war before this
group turns over....:)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/// Ben Carroll: Master of 6510 assembly language and all around nice
/// guy...Also Un*x/C novice/bumbling idiot.
///Don't post responses here! I put my own postings into my KILL file.andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) (01/10/91)
In article <D92C4EC47ABFE00545@ISUVAX.BITNET> TAAB5@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Marc Barrett) writes: >From a previous message, quoting an article in the Wall Street Journal... > > In a way I was right: anybody but Copperman would have resigned rather >than take a demotion. This is really too bad, but it falls right in >line with what I've been predicting for a long time. Commodore's > Under Copperman, the company made some reforms, such as hiring more >people for software and hardware R&D, but it looks like these reforms >are going to be very quickly reversed. With 15% cut-backs in the staff >at West Chester, it is likely that all of those people who have been >hired from job noticed posted on CSA in the past year will be fired >very soon. It also means that even the very minor increase amount of >funding that Copperman has spent on R&D will be cut to again below 2%. What ? He's changed his message header AGAIN ? For the 3rd time this week ? ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHH! Marc: as usual, you are confused. This in itself isn't bad, but you always seem to attempt to spread your level of confusion to others. Allow me to attempt to correct your incorrect assumptions; this may help others on the net; not you, unfortuately, as your account only seems to allow posting news, but not reading. Harry Copperman has not, and never has been in charge of R&D funding, hiring people for software or hardware R&D, or R&D in general. Mr Copperman was in direct charge of the US Sales company. Engineering is seperate, and reports to international. This means that his change in job status should not change happenings in R&D. I just realized what your posting remind me of...Remember Emily Latella, from Saturday Night Live ? > AMIGA -- Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!! > > > -MB- How about "Usenet: A chance for college students to allow thousands of potential future employers just how much they know." andy -- andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "And Amiga has not forgot the retailer." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/10/91)
In article <D92C4EC47ABFE00545@ISUVAX.BITNET> TAAB5@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Marc Barrett) writes: > Under Copperman, the company made some reforms, such as hiring more >people for software and hardware R&D, but it looks like these reforms >are going to be very quickly reversed. Get a clue. Please. Copperman had nothing to do with hiring or firing of people in R&D. Copperman was President of the US Company. He had no more control of R&D than the President of the German or British companies (in fact, if you consider sales volumes as a measure of marketing influence over R&D, he probably had less). >With 15% cut-backs in the staff at West Chester, it is likely that all of >those people who have been hired from job noticed posted on CSA in the past >year will be fired very soon. Cut backs in the US company don't have anything to do with cutbacks in the engineering companies. Engineering is still hiring more people. Really, you should stop making public comments on things you don't have the slightest knowledge of. > -MB- -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "Don't worry, 'bout a thing. 'Cause every little thing, gonna be alright" -Bob Marley
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (01/10/91)
In article <D92C4EC47ABFE00545@ISUVAX.BITNET> TAAB5@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Marc Barrett) writes: >Savor these times, >because the Amiga is at it's peak today. From now on the Amiga will >do nothing but decline. Commodore will cut research and development >of Amiga hardware and software, seaking to improve short-term profits.... I hope these lines finally serve to illustrate what many people have suspected all along. The ONLY reason MB posts these things on comp.sys.amiga is to spread bad press about Commodore. Instead of wasting his time posting this crap, any normal person would have sold his Amiga and bought something else. But evidently Marc would rather complain and spread rumors than actually be productive on a computer. Perhaps someday, when Marc realizes that his potential future employers read USENET news, he will stop this public whining. Dan //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Department of Computer Science Johns Hopkins University | | INTERNET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | | COMPUSERVE: >internet:barrett@cs.jhu.edu | UUCP: barrett@jhunix.UUCP | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
mykes@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) (01/10/91)
A friend at work told me that he read in yesterday's Mercury News that CBM posted a major loss last quarter and had laid off hundreds of employees and engineers. Any truth to this? By the way, when Sadaam invaded Kuwait, the stock market dropped a bunch. Commodore was at about $9 and dropped to about $4. As recently as 2 weeks ago, the stock was at $10. Why would the stock go 250% up right before CBM announced a major loss and layoffs. Commodore really needs to focus on getting Business software available to the public. It is really embarassing that the machine has been around for 6 years and you still can't get a half decent WYSIWYG word processor that prints near Mac-quality documents on a laser printer from ANY manufacturer. Couldn't CBM pay Microsoft $30 Million for source to Microsoft word and port it? Couldn't they hire 3 or 4 guys who could just make the one piece of software that people will start using the machine for? It seems to me that the current products are all video oriented and even if these products are excellent, the Amiga can only be considered a machine used by a vast minority of hobbyists and video game junkies. Commodore seems to want to make a Unix machine real bad, but it looks like the Unix market is not really doing that well and is not a real good market to be going for. Sun was going to make a new public offering (stock market) before Sadaam screwed up our economy but decided against it because they couldn't get a decent price for the stock. You see, the industry analysts just don't think that Unix is booming... Commodore, you need to get your CD ROM machine out and make it cheap. You need to have a FIRE SALE on machines so you can get the price down to the point where people buying Nintendo and other game machines will start to consider buying the Amiga 500. The CD ROM machine is a brilliant piece of engineering, but it costs a huge amount of money to develop games that take up hundreds of megabytes and the only way anyone would invest the money is if they could sell a few hundred thousand at a time. If NEC can't sell a CD ROM machine at $400, can CBM sell one at $1000 and create any kind of market? NO WAY JOSE. Everyone who reads the Amiga newsgroups knows how great the Amiga is, but when Apple or IBM or many other IBM Clone manufacturers can sell more machines in a week than CBM can in a year, the industry will continue to look down their noses at the Amiga and ridicule it. The Atari 800 was the best 8-bit machine you could buy, but it went by the wayside and was defeated by the C64. The ONLY reason was price. At $199, people will buy a lot of machines. At $500, they won't, unless it is the same thing they use at work. The Amiga is the best 32-bit machine around, but it will continue to putter along and CBM will flounder as long as the Amiga does not do the things that other computers do well. This is true even though the Amiga does things the other computers can't do at all. I love the Amiga and want to see it succeed. Get your act together guys!
wolf@cbnewsh.att.com (thomas.wolf) (01/10/91)
From article <1991Jan10.034113.21163@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>, by mykes@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz): ...some good comments deleted... > > It seems to me that the current products are all video oriented and even if > these products are excellent, the Amiga can only be considered a machine used > by a vast minority of hobbyists and video game junkies. Commodore seems to > want to make a Unix machine real bad, but it looks like the Unix market is > not really doing that well and is not a real good market to be going for. > Sun was going to make a new public offering (stock market) before Sadaam > screwed up our economy but decided against it because they couldn't get a > decent price for the stock. You see, the industry analysts just don't think ^^^^^^ They couldn't get the price they wanted. Whether that was a "decent" price for the stock is subjective :-) > that Unix is booming... > Forecasting UNIX machines' future based on the performance of particular companies in the stock market is somewhat haphazard. I don't think that manufacturers of UNIX equipment have fared any worse than other computer companies. With respect to what "industry analysts" say: I've read quite the opposite - that UNIX-based machines will proliferate in the '90s...It really depends which "analyst" you ask :-) Tom -- +-------------------------------------+ "Stupid" questions are better than | Thomas Wolf | (201) 615-4789 | no questions at all. No answer is | Bell Labs, NJ | wolf@mink.att.com | better than a stupid one. +-------------------------------------+
bill@dmntor.UUCP (Bill Kyle) (01/11/91)
You have made some good points but because a machine sells better this does not make it better. CBMs problem has been public perception of a V Good product and to an extent business S/W, however I have had my Amiga for 2 years and have used it extensively for W/P applications using WORDPERFECT it does quite fine. I am no GURU but when my brother (who is an IBM buff) and I get together and I power up my machine and run some stuff AND SHOW HIM WHAT I PAID he gets sick. Unfortunately his business uses IBM PCs and he has more scientific applications. However when we compare basic capabilities, my brother always resorts to the old IBM fanatics bromide Our conversations often go like this..... "Yes but I can get my IBM to do if I get this kit for $xxx.xx." "Gee brother your IBM PC has fart-like sound effects" "OH YA well if I BUY such n such it can sound just like yours" "Gee brother the monitor that came with your IBM PC has a vintage 1949 made in Albania quality puke-yellow on black picture" "OH YA well I can buy a color monitor as well!!" "and a mouse? Brother: "A what.....?"
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (01/12/91)
In-Reply-To: message from TAAB5@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU Copperman didn't take a demotion...going from where he was to a VP spot in CBM, International is hardly a step down. The guy taking his place is supposed to be very hungry for the educational market, which is good. Things went well under Copperman (with the exception of a few marketing attempts), I think this guy deserves a chance. Besides, changing management isn't unique to Commodore. Let's not forget, that's a stigma that even APPLE is trying to live down right now. Don't believe me? Then you haven't been reading MacWorld or Mac User! Alot of the crap you complain about with Commodore, Apple is equally guilty of. Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1990 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<