jnk@sfsup.UUCP (11/18/87)
!!!!! SALE !!!!! Microsoft 'C' Compiler V4.0 1: Compiler with original diskettes. 2: All manuals (in excellent condition). 3: Includes CodeView(tm). Asking >>>>> $99 <<<<< + shipping. (201) 522-6494 between 8:30 and 4:30 EST Joe Klepach
mallett@cg-atla.UUCP (Bruce Mallett X5267) (11/20/87)
I have seen a number of "MSC 4.0 for sale" articles recently. Is this really legal? I assume that these are for sale because the owner has upgraded to 5.0. My understanding of the license is that it covers that one copy and an upgrade is an enhancement to that one license. BAM!! ... decvax!cg-atla!mallett --
dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) (11/22/87)
In article <1116@cg-atla.UUCP> mallett@cg-atla.UUCP (Bruce Mallett X5267) writes: >I have seen a number of "MSC 4.0 for sale" articles recently. Is this >really legal? I assume that these are for sale because the owner has >upgraded to 5.0. My understanding of the license is that it covers >that one copy and an upgrade is an enhancement to that one license. However, shrink-wrap licenses have no legal validity, therefore there was no license to begin with and only copyright law governs use. If as a condition to obtaining a discount on version 5.0 you agreed to destroy all copies of version 4.0, you indeed cannot sell it legally. If you didn't, I see no reason why you can't sell the old version. Consider buying an encyclopedia. The publisher encloses a coupon that lets you get the next updated edition at a discount. When you get the new edition, can you not sell the old one? (Hint: this is a rhetorical question.) -- Rahul Dhesi UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!dhesi
brad@looking.UUCP (11/23/87)
In article <1568@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes: > >However, shrink-wrap licenses have no legal validity, therefore there >was no license to begin with and only copyright law governs use. If as >a condition to obtaining a discount on version 5.0 you agreed to >destroy all copies of version 4.0, you indeed cannot sell it legally. >If you didn't, I see no reason why you can't sell the old version. Holy rationalizations Batman! If you order an upgrade to a piece of software, it is very clear that you are, of your own free will, paying for an addition to software you previously paid for, and not a new copy. By paying for an upgrade you are stating that it *is* an upgrade. Unless you can claim ignorance of what a software upgrade is expected to be, this is a contract, even if it isn't written down. You are both morally and in my opinion, legally bound not to sell what you have of the previous release. If you disagree with this, send Microsoft the upgrade fee with a little note saying, "this payment comes with the understanding that I'm buying a completely new copy, and that I'm free to do with the old one what I will." Guess what they'll say. > >Consider buying an encyclopedia. The publisher encloses a coupon that >lets you get the next updated edition at a discount. When you get the >new edition, can you not sell the old one? (Hint: this is a >rhetorical question.) A lot of differences here. The coupon is included with the first encloypedia, which means that as part of the package, you are purchasing a right to buy the next edition at a reduced price. Or it could simply be an incentive on their part to get previous customers to repeat. Again, it all depends on the nature of your agreement with the copyright holder. In the book case, the publisher probably feels they really are selling two copies. In the software case, everybody (including you) knows that the vendor does not feel it is selling two distinct licences, and you'll have a hard time convincing people that you believed otherwise. Software companies work hard to produce updates that (except for Borland) get sold at a very favourable cost. Do we have to search for ways to cheat them? -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
toma@tekgvs.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (11/24/87)
In article <1568@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes: <In article <1116@cg-atla.UUCP> mallett@cg-atla.UUCP (Bruce Mallett X5267) <writes: <<I have seen a number of "MSC 4.0 for sale" articles recently. Is this <<really legal? I assume that these are for sale because the owner has <<upgraded to 5.0. My understanding of the license is that it covers <<that one copy and an upgrade is an enhancement to that one license. < <However, shrink-wrap licenses have no legal validity, therefore there <was no license to begin with and only copyright law governs use. If as <a condition to obtaining a discount on version 5.0 you agreed to <destroy all copies of version 4.0, you indeed cannot sell it legally. <If you didn't, I see no reason why you can't sell the old version. < Ah, but you are not buying the new version at a discount, you are buying an upgrade for an older version. I developed a software product for which upgrades are free via modem. Now if you bought my product (a Forth compiler) and took advantage of a free upgrade, would you feel that you could give the old version away, or sell it? I certainly hope not! Yet what is the difference if a company decides to charge for the revision? Just because you paid additional money and get a new manual doesn't mean you have two licensed copies. Remember these companies don't have to offer an upgrade deal at all. Tom Almy toma@tekgvs.TEK.COM
rps@homxc.UUCP (R.SHARPLES) (11/24/87)
In article <1150@looking.UUCP>, brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: > If you order an upgrade to a piece of software, it is very clear that > you are, of your own free will, paying for an addition to software you > previously paid for, and not a new copy. > > By paying for an upgrade you are stating that it *is* an upgrade. > Unless you can claim ignorance of what a software upgrade is expected to be, > this is a contract, even if it isn't written down. > > You are both morally and in my opinion, legally bound not to sell what you > have of the previous release. > > > > >Consider buying an encyclopedia. The publisher encloses a coupon that > >lets you get the next updated edition at a discount. When you get the > >new edition, can you not sell the old one? (Hint: this is a > >rhetorical question.) > > A lot of differences here. The coupon is included with the first encloypedia, > which means that as part of the package, you are purchasing a right to buy > the next edition at a reduced price. Or it could simply be an incentive on > their part to get previous customers to repeat. > ... > Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 I believe that the if the manufacturer was selling you an upgrade at a reduced price then it should be literally that! It should not include any material that has not changed since the last release, e.g. if an include library hasn't changed it should not be re-issued. Same with the manual pages, etc.. However, it is much easier for Microsoft to make up one version of C 5.0 for new customers and upgrades, so they send current users duplicates of a large amount of the material. I think the fact that MS does NOT require you to return the old disks/manuals OR destroy the old disks/manuals OR sign anything saying that you may not sell/lend/give them to someone else, means that you may do as you wish. It is up to MS to protect these rights (if they exist) if they want to use them. I believe the reason MS offers C 5.0 to a C 4.0 customer for a cheap price is to promote brand loyality and prevent the market from drying up just prior to release of a new version. BTW - a quick glance at the MS C license says nothing about upgrades and says that you are allowed to transfer the product to a third party if that third party agrees to the terms of the license. Russ Sharples homxc!rps NOTE: The above in NO WAY reflects the opinions of AT&T. These opinions are my own and the results of un-scientific and highly irregular analysis methods.