cpc@vaxine.UUCP (Chris Cullen) (11/30/87)
I am the victim of a bad situation that I want to broadcast, in the hopes
that others do not also get burned.
I have a 30-meg Seagate st238 RLL hard drive for my vanilla IBM PC, with an
Adaptec ACB-2070A RLL controller card. I had gone backup-less for quite a
while, having used IBM's BACKUP facility once only. Two and a half hours
required to make a backup, no recovery from finding a bad floppy sector
when you're halfway through, etc., etc. It's a completely inadequate piece
of trash. A tape backup was a little more money than I wanted to spend, so
I tried out the $89 (PC Connection) FASTBACK product.
The product itself actually seems pretty nifty. I was sceptical that ANY
backup onto floppies could be anything but painful, but... only twenty minutes
for me to back up (I thought... more later) about 22 meg of stuff, with
only one floppy drive. Wow! Finally, data security!
That sigh of relief lasted only a couple of days. The first sign of trouble
was when using my word processor (Microsoft Word) hung the machine. REALLY
hung it, like power-down time, folks (I don't have a hardware reset switch).
I reinstalled it from my original product floppies, and it worked fine again.
Well, I get right on the phone (toll call to tech support, of course) to
Fifth Generation systems, the makers. Didn't take long. And I quote:
"Yeah, we don't know anyone who's gotten RLL's to work with anything but
a Western Digital controller". You would think that a backup program only
READS the source disk. Wrong. It updates all the archive bits, and in my
case, shuffles the FAT (it has lots of files open at the same time).
It is more than a little bit infuriating to buy a product solely to guarantee
data security, and having the use of it be the one thing which trashes the
disk! It will take me a long time to survey and estimate the damage, but
by a cursory inspection I'd say around 10% of everything is munged. I tried
restoring from the backup (the verify option did say the files were different),
however even the restored version of the one program I tried still hung.
As far as I'm concerned, Fastback is the ultimate trojan horse. I'm sure
it was not intentional. However, criminal negligence is certainly indicated.
It's obvious from the brief phone conversation that they KNOW that using
Fastback on some varieties of hardware (what OTHER configurations are also
problems?) will corrupt the source data. NOWHERE in their documentation
or advertisements is this mentioned. The guy I talked to was incredibly
blase about my problem; not the least apologetic. Sure, I'll get a refund.
BIG DEAL!
I can only recommend that you
A- NOT BUY FASTBACK
B- TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW NOT TO BUY FASTBACK
C- QUESTION YOUR PRESENT BACKUP METHOD VERY CAREFULLY
--
Chris Cullen UUCP: {ucbvax!allegra,decvax}!encore!vaxine!cpc
Automatix, Inc. Phone: 617-667-7900 x2066
1000 Technology Park Dr.
Billerica, Mass. 01821perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (12/03/87)
In article <703@vaxine.UUCP>, cpc@vaxine.UUCP (Chris Cullen) writes: > It is more than a little bit infuriating to buy a product solely to guarantee > data security, and having the use of it be the one thing which trashes the > disk! > > ... criminal negligence is certainly indicated. > It's obvious from the brief phone conversation that they KNOW that using > Fastback on some varieties of hardware (what OTHER configurations are also > problems?) will corrupt the source data. NOWHERE in their documentation > or advertisements is this mentioned. You're quite right; CRIMINAL negligence is indicated. Therefore, your remedy lies in the courts. Fifth Generation is in violation of the "implied warranty of merchantibility" specified in their advertisements; i.e., their program didn't do what they claim it will do, but instead caused damage. Unless their advertisements or documentation state that Fastback is only intended for certain hardware configurations, you can sue them for damages and reliably expect to win. One thing, though: DO NOT send Fastback to them for a refund. If you do, you've accepted their otherwise worthless disclaimer that they're only liable for the purchase price. -- {hplabs,amdahl,ames}!bnrmtv!perkins --Henry Perkins It is better never to have been born. But who among us has such luck? One in a million, perhaps.
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (12/05/87)
Hate to tell you this, but I _frequently_ use FASTBACK on a machine with an ST-238 and an Adaptec 2070A RLL controller. Never had any problems. However, the Adaptec 2070A controller is notorius for a problem with the early production runs. We had a second Adaptec 2070A and an ST-238 for backup purposes (this machine is CRITICAL to a department). I set it up on the backup machine and it seemed to be ok. So I put the machine away until we needed it. Well, my AT got "sick" and had to be sent out for repair. I dug out the backup machine and started to use it. It _rapidly_ developed bad clusters, I was having to do a TAPE backup followed by a low level format (!) a couple times a day. (no I wasn't using FASTBACK on _this_ machine!) If I were you, I'd call Adaptec and ask if your controller is one of the ones that needs an upgrade to fix this bug! -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'. You know... I'd rather be a hacker."
ugfailau@sunybcs.uucp (Fai Lau) (12/05/87)
In article <3225@bnrmtv.UUCP> perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) writes: > >You're quite right; CRIMINAL negligence is indicated. Therefore, >your remedy lies in the courts. Fifth Generation is in violation >of the "implied warranty of merchantibility" specified in their >advertisements; i.e., their program didn't do what they claim it >will do, but instead caused damage. Unless their advertisements >or documentation state that Fastback is only intended for certain >hardware configurations, you can sue them for damages and reliably >expect to win. > The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So this is another case of software doesn't do what is claimed. I'm currently using Mace. It takes about 2 hours to run through my 30meg disk, so it's slow. But the resulted performance is impressive. A 260k file takes less than 3 seconds to load. Fai Lau SUNY at Buffalo (The Arctic Wonderland) UUCP: ..{mit-ems|watmath|rocksanne}!sunybcs!ugfailau BI: ugfailau@sunybcs
Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com (12/05/87)
Bob_Robert_Brody@cup.portal.com writes:
->Fact is, there are far more problems with the stupid RLL than with
->FASTBACK. You should get your assault straight. The culprit is the
->RLL, not FASTBACK. Use 'real' hardware and you'll find FASTBACK works
->just fine.
That's unnecessarily intemperate. The fact is, there's little in the way
of hardware standards for PCs, so given the large number of RLL drives out
there, the onus is on Fastback's publishers to either make the product
work safely on RLL drives or make it clear that it shouldn't be used with
them.
You should not make arbitrary assumptions about the intelligence of others.
Not only does it lead to illogic, it makes you look immature.
I myself bought Fastback after hearing it praised to the skies by nearly
every user I talked to. It turns out to be incompatible with my floppy
controller! If there's any blame to be laid here, it's in the fact that
the PC marketplace still resemble a hobby shop.
Isaac Rabinovitch
Disclaimer: Just because I think you're wrong, doesn't
mean I don't think you're a fun person!
:-)benke@chalmers.UUCP (Bengt-Eric Ericson) (12/07/87)
In some article in this group there is said something about "Computer Shopper". Is this a magazine or what? Please enlight us guys here in the land of Polar bears. :-)
dpbaudra@ihlpe.UUCP (12/07/87)
> The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against >using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. >It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So I wish I would have read this yesterday before using Norton SD on my 20MB disk. Fortunately I took "Norton's" advice and backed up my disk before running SD. About 30 files in one directory disappeared; strangely enough some were gone right after running SD and even more were gone after rebooting. "USE Norton's SD with extreme caution!!" -- Dave Braune, AT&T - Data Systems Group, IW 2Z330, 1-312-979-7829 uucp: ihnp4!ihlpe!dpbaudra 8-367-7829
jaj@boole.acc.virginia.edu (James A. Jokl) (12/09/87)
In article <703@vaxine.UUCP> cpc@vaxine.UUCP (Chris Cullen) writes: >I am the victim of a bad situation that I want to broadcast, in the hopes >that others do not also get burned. I don't see how you can complain about the software vendor for a RLL hard disk/controller mismatch. The software should be able to read/write as it pleases. Fastback HAS TO reset the archive bit to work correctly. I would yell at the hardware vendor. -- James A. Jokl jaj@virginia.EDU
timothym@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Timothy D Margeson) (12/10/87)
Hi,
Like I said, Fastback IS dangerous! So, I told you so.....
--
Tim Margeson (206)253-5240
PO Box 3500 d/s C1-937 @@ 'Who said that?'
Vancouver, WA. 98668
{amd..hplabs}cae780!tektronix!tekigm2!timothym (this changes daily)emp@ut-emx.UUCP (Omega.Mosley) (12/11/87)
In article <2237@tekigm2.TEK.COM>, timothym@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Timothy D Margeson) writes: > Hi, > > Like I said, Fastback IS dangerous! So, I told you so..... > > -- ...ok, time to toss in my two rubles worth in this mess... ...I've used Fastback for well over a year now, and have NEVER had a single problem with the program itself. It has never botched a file backup or restore, and has always performed perfuntory without exception. ...y'know, it's really common for someone to blame the software right off the bat when a problem occurs. Hell, if it was as flawed as you say it is, then why have several million (est) copies been either sold or pirated? ...ok, so Red Ryder for the Mac is a mess, and yeah, it sells, too. So I guess you could try to get by with the sucker principle as your defense. However, it looks to me you were just pissed, and decided to take the easy way you by bitching about the software. Go check your system again, preferably after a few beers... OM
wjr@rayssd.RAY.COM (William J. Ramey) (12/15/87)
In article <7024@sunybcs.UUCP>, ugfailau@sunybcs.uucp (Fai Lau) writes: > The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against > using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. > It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So > this is another case of software doesn't do what is claimed. > I was amazed at the review by Computer Shopper and their advice against using the Speed Disk utility. I`ve been using "SD" for several months and have never had any problem with it. It looked like most of the problems encountered with using "SD" was associated with files that had some form of copy protection with it. ?????? Bill
robf2@pyuxf.UUCP (robert fair) (12/15/87)
> In article <7024@sunybcs.UUCP>, ugfailau@sunybcs.uucp (Fai Lau) writes: > The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against > using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. > It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So > this is another case of software doesn't do what is claimed. A co-worker of mine tried using SD on his 10MB Bournoulli Drive and it completely trashed the drive. He now uses Mace. Rob Fair ihnp4!pyuxww!pyuxf!robf2
alang@masscomp.UUCP (Alan Groupe) (12/17/87)
> The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against >using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. >It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So I don't understand why anyone would want to spend over two hours running a disk organizer (which has the potential for trashing a disk) when in under an hour you can get the same results by backing up and restoring the disk and get a backup copy "for free." Alan Groupe
laszlo@sigi.Colorado.EDU (Laszlo Nemeth) (12/18/87)
>I don't understand why anyone would want to spend over two hours >running a disk organizer (which has the potential for trashing a disk) >when in under an hour you can get the same results by backing up and >restoring the disk and get a backup copy "for free." > >Alan Groupe how big is your hard disk (mines 20M)? since ms-dos dosn't have job conntrol it is very nice at the end of the day to start up DOG (Disk OrGanizer) and let it run. also it will put all .exe .com files at the outer sectors of the disk allowing faster access to them while putting any file that you change often at an inner sector so it can fragment all it wants. besides which i don't do backups because MY hard disk NEVER crashes :-) Laszlo Nemeth laszlo@boulder.colorado.edu I wish i had some SOAM's and was SOAing I think i will tonight.
dons@killer.UUCP (Don Simoneaux) (12/20/87)
In article <192@pyuxf.UUCP>, robf2@pyuxf.UUCP (robert fair) writes: > A co-worker of mine tried using SD on his 10MB Bournoulli Drive and > it completely trashed the drive. > > He now uses Mace. > > Rob Fair > ihnp4!pyuxww!pyuxf!robf2 I have been using Norton's SD on a dual half-height 10 MB Bernoulli Box and have had no problems. The Bernoulli is connected to an IBM PC. I have also had no problems with it on my Leading Edge, Model M with Mountain DriveCard 30. I also recently bought Fastback Plus for my LEPC and have had no problems. The program does what it claims! -- Don Simoneaux Phone: (214) 964-1859 3605 Interlaken Dr. Plano, TX 75075 USENET: ...ihnp4!killer!dons
pre1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) (12/21/87)
In article <1727@rayssd.RAY.COM> wjr@rayssd.RAY.COM (William J. Ramey) writes: -In article <7024@sunybcs.UUCP>, ugfailau@sunybcs.uucp (Fai Lau) writes: -> The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against -> using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. -> It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So -> this is another case of software doesn't do what is claimed. -> - - I was amazed at the review by Computer Shopper and their advice -against using the Speed Disk utility. I`ve been using "SD" for several -months and have never had any problem with it. It looked like most of the -problems encountered with using "SD" was associated with files that had -some form of copy protection with it. - -?????? - -Bill Well, a co-worker recently had his hard disk blown away by Norton's Speed Disk program. He was using the Advanced Edition on a Kaypro PC-30 (30 MB RLL). None of the directories had more than a few MB of data in them, but it may be possible that one branch off root had that much when including all the subdirs. Anyway, he called Norton and was told that they had experienced difficulty with SD in some cases in which a single subdirectory contained more than ~16MB (I'm quoting that figure from memory, don't risk your HD on it!). They said that they would send out a replacement disk set (we haven't seen it yet, it's been about a week). Since this time, I haven't used SD, though a number of the other programs are VERY worthwhile. If you have Norton's Utilities (I know advanced version, maybe others as well), I would strongly recommend that you call Norton and get the information for yourself. As I'm not the one who originally called, this information is secondhand. Better safe than sorry, however. Grant Prellwitz Prellwitz Computing Services Author takes full responsibility for this posting (but I'm not sure that I'm the author). I have no connection with Peter Norton Computing (though I am a satisfied user of a number of their products). -- =====================Grant Prellwitz========================== !ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!pre1 pre1@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP 76474,2121 (CIS) pre1 (BIX) !ihnp4!chinet!pre1 contents sole responsibility of poster.
catone@dsl.cis.upenn.edu (Tony Catone) (12/23/87)
In article <2668@masscomp.UUCP> alang@masscomp.UUCP (Alan Groupe) writes: >> The October issue of Computer Shopper advices against >>using the Norton Speed Disk haed disk unframenting utility. >>It caused missing files and file damages in their test. So > >I don't understand why anyone would want to spend over two hours >running a disk organizer (which has the potential for trashing a disk) >when in under an hour you can get the same results by backing up and >restoring the disk and get a backup copy "for free." Disk organizers run unattended, whereas most back up strategies require user intervention (switching disks, tapes, whatever). Back ups are important, but are not needed as frequently as disk optimization. I find disk organizers very useful. The one I use is Reformat (not the best choice for a name :-), a public domain program with Turbo Pascal sources. It was available via anonymous FTP from the Info-IBMPC archives on c.isi.edu before that machine went away. I believe those archives were consolidated with Simtel 20's, though, so the program should still be easy to find. - Tony catone@dsl.cis.upenn.edu catone@wharton.upenn.edu