martyn@garfield.UUCP (Martyn Quigley) (01/23/88)
A while back there was discussion about laptops and airport security. Folks
might be interested in this.
Over Christmas, I travelled by air thus:
St John's (NFLD) --> Toronto (Ontario) --> Heathrow (London) --> St John's
and hefted my Toshiba 3100 with me. At St John's I asked for the machine to
be hand-checked which they did, but they made me power it up. At Toronto I
asked for it to be hand-checked, which they did but they did not make me
power it up. At Heathrow I asked for it to be hand-checked. They told me
"No x-ray, no travel". Since there were 6 of them and they were all bigger
than me, the computer duly went through the x-ray machine.
The first thing I did when I got back home was power up the computer. No
problems at all, all files intact, boot proceeded normally etc. Whew!
In fact, I was in such a hurry that I forgot to change the voltage selector
back to 120v from English sparks, but even that didn't bother the machine.
Conclusion: *MY* computer did not suffer by going through the x-ray machine
at Heathrow. (I do not guarantee that your machine will not.)wnp@killer.UUCP (Wolf Paul) (01/25/88)
In article <4426@garfield.UUCP> martyn@garfield.UUCP (Martyn Quigley) writes: >A while back there was discussion about laptops and airport security. Folks >might be interested in this. > >power it up. At Heathrow I asked for it to be hand-checked. They told me >"No x-ray, no travel". Since there were 6 of them and they were all bigger >than me, the computer duly went through the x-ray machine. > >The first thing I did when I got back home was power up the computer. No >problems at all, all files intact, boot proceeded normally etc. Whew! I did not understand it back when the discussion was going on, and I still don't understand it: What is there in a portable computer or in a box of floppy disks that is going to be harmed by X-Rays? X-Rays, being a form of light, can potentially damage photographic film (although I understand that the frequencies of the airport security X-Rays are such that it won't harm normal photographic film), but I do not see how X-Rays can ever affect a magnetic medium (such as a floppy or hard disk) or electronic components such as make up a computer. Can anyone enlighten me with scientific reasons for this panic? I don't want any reports such as "I took it through airport security and it wiped out my hard disk" -- unless you did this as a controlled experiment, I doubt that it was the security X-Rays that did it. Most of us are quite capable, and have proven it, of wiping out our hard disk without the aid of X-Rays. What I am looking for is a scientific explanation of why X-Rays might damage a portable computer or other magnetic media. Wolf Paul ihnp4!killer!wnp
briane@chinet.UUCP (Brian Ebert) (01/25/88)
I frequently fly with a pc convertible. It always gets x-rayed and I've never had a problem with the computer. What bothers me is how the machine looks on the x-ray machine. All that electronics and wire sure would make a good disguise for a bomb.
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (01/26/88)
I have not verified this, but it seems likely that x-rays could damage the information on UV erasable programmable ROM chips. These things work by permanently storing a small charge. The UV light generates charge carriers in such a way as to discharge the capacitors?/diodes? which hold the charge. X-rays would generate exactly the same kind of charge carriers. The major question is whether one hit would discharge a cell. It takes lots of UV hits to do it, but one X-ray is worth a lot of UV photons. Many computers contain UVEPROMs, for example the XT I'm typing this on as well as a friend's PC Portable. One X-ray hit will absolutely render a grain of film developable; therefore NO X-ray machine is completely safe for any film. The only difference is that only high speed film will be ruined by one X-ray. DougMcDonald
cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (01/28/88)
> What is there in a portable computer or in a box of floppy disks that is going > to be harmed by X-Rays? > > Wolf Paul > ihnp4!killer!wnp Some X-ray machines generate rather substantial magnetic fields -- it's not the X-rays themselves that are of concern. Clayton E. Cramer
windley@iris.ucdavis.edu (Phil Windley) (01/28/88)
With all this talk about laptops and xrays going around, I'd like to know what anyone can do about it. If you want to take your laptop on the plane, it will be xrayed. --phil-- Phil Windley Robotics Research Lab University of California, Davis
jec@nesac2.UUCP (John Carter ATLN SADM) (01/28/88)
In article <3056@killer.UUCP>, wnp@killer.UUCP (Wolf Paul) writes: > In article <4426@garfield.UUCP> martyn@garfield.UUCP (Martyn Quigley) writes: ] ] At Heathrow I asked for it to be hand-checked. They told me ] ]"No x-ray, no travel". Since there were 6 of them and they were all bigger ] ]than me, the computer duly went through the x-ray machine. ] ] ] ]The first thing I did when I got back home was power up the computer. No ] ]problems at all, all files intact, boot proceeded normally etc. Whew! ] ] I did not understand it back when the discussion was going on, and I still ] don't understand it: ] ] What is there in a portable computer or in a box of floppy disks that is going ] to be harmed by X-Rays? ] ] Can anyone enlighten me with scientific reasons for this panic? ] ] What I am looking for is a scientific explanation of why X-Rays might damage ] a portable computer or other magnetic media. ] ] Wolf Paul ] ihnp4!killer!wnp The x-rays themselves do minimal damage to magnetic media. However, the MAGNETIC focusing used to control the x-ray beam has the _potential_ to do great harm to magnetic media. There is always the _possibility_ of damage from x-rays to any solid state device, although the usual concern is for gamma or other higher energy radiation (as in 'hardened' chips for military applications). -- USnail: John Carter, AT&T, Atlanta RWC, 3001 Cobb Parkway, Atlanta GA 30339 Video: ...ihnp4!cuea2!ltuxa!ll1!nesac2!jec Voice: 404+951-4642 (The above views are my very own. How dare you question them? :-)
wheels@mks.UUCP (Gerry Wheeler) (01/28/88)
In article <3056@killer.UUCP>, wnp@killer.UUCP (Wolf Paul) writes: > What is there in a portable computer or in a box of floppy disks that is going > to be harmed by X-Rays? > Can anyone enlighten me with scientific reasons for this panic? I tend to agree with your skepticism, Wolf. The only reason I can think of is that there must be one humungous power supply in those machines, with associated transformers, etc. Although the X-rays may be unimportant, perhaps it's the rest of the machine that should be watched. -- Gerry Wheeler Phone: (519)884-2251 Mortice Kern Systems Inc. UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!wheels 35 King St. North BIX: join mks Waterloo, Ontario N2J 2W9 CompuServe: 73260,1043
smvorkoetter@watmum.waterloo.edu (Stefan M. Vorkoetter) (01/28/88)
In article <2133@chinet.UUCP> briane@chinet.UUCP (Brian Ebert) writes: > >I frequently fly with a pc convertible. It always gets x-rayed and I've >never had a problem with the computer. What bothers me is how the machine >looks on the x-ray machine. All that electronics and wire sure would >make a good disguise for a bomb. I once flew from Denver to Chicago to Toronto carrying an overnight bag filled with wire, batteries, circuit boards, and chips, in a very jumbled up and un-computerlike arrangement (sort of like a bomb). These were all parts of a project I was working on while in Colorado for the summer. This mess went through X-ray twice, and never did anyone ask any questions. I even saw it on the screen myself, and it looked as suspicious as you could possibly imagine. Gives you great confidence in airport security doesn't it? Stefan Vorkoetter University of Waterloo
mjg@ecsvax.UUCP (Michael Gingell) (01/29/88)
There are at least two reasons why an X-Ray machine can be harmful to your computer: 1) Very strong magnetic fields are used to generate X-rays. These could, in theory, damage the recordings on floppy disks. 2) The high energy of X-rays can damage semiconductors. Again, with enough intensity damage could occur to the contents of erasible programmable memories (EMPROMS or EEPROMS or EPLDS) or to the contents of battery backed up CMOS rams. Has anyone had any real experience of an X-Ray machine causing harm to a computer or floppy disk ?. I think this is more mythical than actual. ------ Mike Gingell ...decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!mjg
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Peter J. Holsberg) (01/29/88)
I have a friend who is a Captain for Japan Airlines. For the last 6
years, he has been lugging computers through airport security and has
never lost a bit. The computers were a Kaypro 10 and a Toshiba 3100.
He says it's safe.
--
Peter Holsberg UUCP: {rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh
Technology Division CompuServe: 70240,334
Mercer College GEnie: PJHOLSBERG
Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800bobr@zeus.TEK.COM (Robert Reed) (01/29/88)
Anyone know what the effects might be of X-rays on EPROMS and EEROMS that might be present in laptop computers pushed through airport security devices? -- Robert Reed, Tektronix CAE Systems Division, bobr@zeus.TEK
Wingnut@cup.portal.com (01/29/88)
I have carried a Toshiba 3100 on a dozen or so flights now, and had
no trouble or problems as a result of sending it through the scanners.
In one situation, I was asked to remove it from the case and open it
up, but not power it on (in Bend, Oregon, of all places!)
I did recently have the microfloppy die on me (the unit is about 14 months
old and so just out of the 1 year warentee, but that is another story.)
I have had not hard disc troubles what so ever!
>>>> Chris_Goodey@Sun!Cup.Portal.Com (I think)johnl@ima.ISC.COM (John R. Levine) (01/29/88)
In article <4514@ecsvax.UUCP> mjg@ecsvax.UUCP (Michael Gingell) writes: >Has anyone had any real experience of an X-Ray machine causing harm >to a computer or floppy disk ?. I think this is more mythical than >actual. I used to travel on business a lot, and now and then I'd forget to take floppy disks out of my briefcase, they'd X-Ray them, and they'd end up unreadable when I arrived. (For that and other reasons, we were encouraged to mail ahead the important ones.) The problem is that the various machines are adjusted to wildly different field strengths. I have them hand-inspect cameras and film, because although it's true that most film won't be affected by correctly adjusted machines, you never know the situation with machines that are run 20 hours a day by largely unskilled (in radiography) operators. -- John R. Levine, IECC, PO Box 349, Cambridge MA 02238-0349, +1 617 492 3869 { ihnp4 | decvax | cbosgd | harvard | yale }!ima!johnl, Levine@YALE.something Gary Hart for President -- Let's win one for the zipper.
mvolo@ecsvax.UUCP (Michael R. Volow) (01/30/88)
You'd think that with all the curiosity and all the testimonals that some laptop company ought to run some tests. Any Toshiba/NEC/Zenith representatives listening? Be the first company to advertise that your laptop is airport-safe! Michael Volow, M.D. Dept of Psychiatry, Durham VA Medical Center, Durham, N.C. 27705 919 286 0411 mvolo@ecsvax.UUCP
cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (02/01/88)
> In article <2133@chinet.UUCP> briane@chinet.UUCP (Brian Ebert) writes: > > > >I frequently fly with a pc convertible. It always gets x-rayed and I've > >never had a problem with the computer. What bothers me is how the machine > >looks on the x-ray machine. All that electronics and wire sure would > >make a good disguise for a bomb. > > I once flew from Denver to Chicago to Toronto carrying an overnight bag > filled with wire, batteries, circuit boards, and chips, in a very jumbled > up and un-computerlike arrangement (sort of like a bomb). These were all > parts of a project I was working on while in Colorado for the summer. This > mess went through X-ray twice, and never did anyone ask any questions. I > even saw it on the screen myself, and it looked as suspicious as you > could possibly imagine. Gives you great confidence in airport security > doesn't it? > > Stefan Vorkoetter > University of Waterloo Hell, no one's watching those things anyway. I had a colleague who made a practice of carrying a lead-lined bag in his carry on luggage. The 21st time he tried to board a plane, someone asked to look inside. I'm not all surprised that 20% of FAA smuggled guns made it through. Clayton E. Cramer
walt_waldo_novinger@cup.portal.com (02/01/88)
The problem with airport x-ray machines and magnetic media isn't the x-rays; rather, it *can* be the strength of the magnetic fields produced by the focussing magnets used to focus the x-rays onto the items being checked. I, too, have carried my laptop and diskettes through many airports, and have never had a problem with lost data or trashed equipment. According to the airlines, the magnetic fields are *much* lower than was the case a few years ago. ======================================================================== Walt Novinger sun!cup.portal.com!waldo "The real world is 680 Sylvan Ave. #17 waldo@cup.portal.com NOT user-friendly" Mountain View, CA 94041 (415) 964-9377 Kelvin Throop ========================================================================
apn@nonvon.uucp (Alex P Novickis) (02/02/88)
In article <961@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> windley@iris.ucdavis.edu (Phil Windley) writes: >With all this talk about laptops and xrays going around, I'd like to >know what anyone can do about it. If you want to take your laptop on >the plane, it will be xrayed. > >--phil-- > >Phil Windley >Robotics Research Lab >University of California, Davis No need for X-rays. I recently traveled from SFO to El Paso/TX and back thru San Diego. I hand carried a laptop with me... all the security asked me to, after I refused to have it x-rayed, was to "Plug it in". I did, and they watched the machine boot... and that apparently convinced their naive little brains, that it was indeed not a bomb. Nor did it pose any safety threat .... whatsoever. Oh well. And ... I suppose I could tell you some stories about customs agents... but that is best left for another posting. After all this, I have such confidence in security, flying and am totally amazed at how *ANYONE* could possible smuggle anything "dangerous" onto a plane. HA!!! -Alex P Novickis ( Oh, and in this case, these opinions are my employers, as I am he ) -- Alex P Novickis [software engineering consultant] +1 707 575 9616 UUCP: {ames,sun,lll-crg,pyramid}!ptsfa!nonvon!apn CS: [76056,601] USMAIL: 1635 Ditty Ave, Santa Rosa, CA 95403 BITNET: EEFA02P@CALSTATE | Only those who attempt the absurd I think, I think it's in my basement|
wrp@biochsn.acc.virginia.edu (William R. Pearson) (02/06/88)
I think it is very interesting how conjecture can turn into rumor can turn into fact. Has anyone on the net ever had the actual experience of having an EPROM damaged by XRAY? I would be very sur- prised. X-RAYS in airports are so weak that they do not damage film, which is extraodinarily sensitive to light, including XRAYS (just take some film to your dentist's). EPROMS are very insensitive to light, you have to shine a certain wavelength of UV light at a high intensity for several minutes. I think the reason people are concerned about floppy disks and airport XRAYs is the magnetic flux of the motors and possibly the ? (coils, tubes) that generate the XRAYS, not the xrays themselves. It has been my experience that floppy disks are very difficult to damage, I think that much of this advice err's on the side of caution. Bill Pearson wrp@virginia
ignatz@chinet.UUCP (Dave Ihnat) (02/07/88)
You *never* need to X-ray anything. You may always explicitly request a hand-search; and I've always invoked this when carrying my Z-171, and later my Z-181, through airports around the country. The search you get is more, or less, cursory depending on the city and the current state of the FAA checks. Used to be just a visual, like a briefcase; now, they require you to turn the machine on and display something. The most thorough search I've ever had was right here at home, O'Hare. They made me pull everything out of the carrying case, open the diskette boxes, etc. I let them X-ray the carrying case, after the computer and diskettes were out, or else I would have had to pull all the manuals, notes, etc. (Of course, this was the weekend after they were embarassed by the security check!) I simply don't see the need to take any chance whatsoever with my equipment and data by running it through the X-ray machine, especially in smaller airports where the equipment may well be old enough to have nice, powerful E-fields... As an aside, you'll rarely have trouble getting permission to operate a portable while in flight, either. It's always at the captain's discretion, by FAA regulation, to permit or forbid such operation, so I always ask. Although it was pointed out to me that on at least one carrier--TWA--the captain *must* permit you to do so, by company regulation; he showed me the relevant manual and section. By extension, I suspect some other carriers may have similar clauses; but I've always found that extending the captain the courtesy of asking is appreciated, even when he's supposed to have to say yes... -- Dave Ihnat ihnp4!homebru!ignatz || ihnp4!chinet!ignatz (w) (312) 882-4673
jay@splut.UUCP (Jay Maynard) (02/12/88)
In article <1988Feb1.235615.2612@nonvon.uucp>, apn@nonvon.uucp (Alex P Novickis) writes: > No need for X-rays. I recently traveled from SFO to El Paso/TX and back > thru San Diego. I hand carried a laptop with me... all the security > asked me to, after I refused to have it x-rayed, was to "Plug it in". I did, > and they watched the machine boot... and that apparently convinced their > naive little brains, that it was indeed not a bomb. This matches my experience with a Compaq Plus, as well. On a related topic: Once you get your (battery-powered) laptop on the plane in the passenger compartment, can you use it in flight? I remember that there was a section in the FARs that said that passengers were prohibited from using any electronic devices; the rationale was that the magnetic field generated would throw off the instrumentation. Since then, though, I've read reviews of laptops comparing how useful they were when balanced on the tray-table. This would imply that they could indeed be used in flight. Any enlightenment on this to be found? (I included rec.aviation so that we could get some FAR experts involved. Please edit the newsgroups: line when following up.) -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC (@WB5BBW)...>splut!< | GEnie: JAYMAYNARD CI$: 71036,1603 uucp: {uunet!nuchat,academ!uhnix1,{ihnp4,bellcore,killer}!tness1}!splut!jay Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. The opinions herein are shared by none of my cats, much less anyone else.
root@yale.UUCP (Celray Stalk) (02/17/88)
possibly the pilot. I take my Zenith everywhere and fly frequently, and several times I've been on flights where the flight attendant or captain specifically said not to use laptop computers during the flight. This only happends on small, 20 to 30 seat airplanes. By the way, I think the practice of having people turn on their computer if they don't want it X-rayed is a universal guideline - I've had it done all over the country and in Europe. From: letsch-david@CS.YALE.EDU (David Letsch) Path: letsch-david@CS.YALE.EDU David Letsch
heiby@mcdchg.UUCP (Ron Heiby) (02/18/88)
Jay Maynard (jay@splut.UUCP) writes: > On a related topic: Once you get your (battery-powered) laptop on the plane > in the passenger compartment, can you use it in flight? I just got back from a trip to Dallas. On each flight, I asked permission to use the computer. On the trip down, the Captain asked that I use it only when the "seat belt" light was turned out. On the trip back, I was told that there would be no problem. I think that (based on my own limited experience and some things I've read) flight crews usually allow PCs to be used in flight. At least until the use of PCs is more widespread and commonplace on aircraft, it is a good idea to ask permission first. For my own safety, I want to be sure that the flight crew knows that I have a PC and am using it, so if a problem does occur with interference, they know where to go to get it shut off. -- Ron Heiby, heiby@mcdchg.UUCP Moderator: comp.newprod & comp.unix "Intel architectures build character."
jbrown@jplpub1.jpl.nasa.gov (Jordan Brown) (02/19/88)
In article <374@splut.UUCP> jay@splut.UUCP (Jay Maynard) writes: >On a related topic: Once you get your (battery-powered) laptop on the plane >in the passenger compartment, can you use it in flight? I remember that >there was a section in the FARs that said that passengers were prohibited >from using any electronic devices; the rationale was that the magnetic field >generated would throw off the instrumentation. The FARs say, essentially, that it's up to the Pilot In Command and the operator (the airline) whether or not you can use "electronic devices". This is true both for air carriers and for GA type airplanes. I believe that it's a coin flip out there whether some particular airline allows them; ask first. (my FARs are downstairs, so no chapter-and-verse, sorry.) Magnetics aren't terribly important. However, your computer (and most complex electronics) is a pretty good radio transmitter, on quite a few bands. The theory is that this could screw up some of the more sensitive navigation systems. Apparently it doesn't seem to be a problem in real life, or the FAA would flat out disallow them.
jbrown@jplpub1.jpl.nasa.gov (Jordan Brown) (02/20/88)
In article <5481@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> jbrown@jplpub1.UUCP (Jordan Brown) writes: >In article <374@splut.UUCP> jay@splut.UUCP (Jay Maynard) writes: >> [can you use laptops in flight?] > >The FARs say, essentially, that it's up to the Pilot In Command and the >operator (the airline) whether or not you can use "electronic devices". >This is true both for air carriers and for GA type airplanes. I believe >that it's a coin flip out there whether some particular airline allows >them; ask first. (my FARs are downstairs, so no chapter-and-verse, sorry.) Well, I received one complaint saying that I was wrong, and I was, at least partially. Here's chapter and verse... 14 cfr 91.19 Portable electronic devices (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of any aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S. registered civil aircraft: (1) Aircraft operated by an air carrier or other commercial operator; or (2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR. (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to: (1) Portable voice recorders; (2) Hearing aids; (3) Heart pacemakers; (4) Electric shavers; or (5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used. (c) In the case of an aircraft operated by an air carrier or commercial operator, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by the air carrier or commercial operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft. SO... you must have the airline's permission. However, remember... 14 cfr 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. So if the PIC says NO, then that's the answer. (Actually, if he says YES, that's the answer too, but overriding the FARs in that direction is frowned upon, whereas anything you can justify as being in the interests of safety is more acceptable.) As I said, ASK FIRST. (oh well, bite my tongue. I didn't ask the last few times I've used one...) The PIC is probably one of the best people to ask, because it's his job and ticket (and life) that are on the line if he says Yes when the real answer is No. The agent at the counter is less deeply steeped in these things, and (I would say) less likely to know the *real* answer. But why would anybody want to use a machine without a hard disk anyway? Sleep, watch the movie, read a book, watch the scenery. Plenty of time to work on the ground. :-)
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (02/22/88)
---- Concerning laptops on planes----- >But why would anybody want to use a machine without a hard disk anyway? >Sleep, watch the movie, read a book, watch the scenery. Plenty of time >to work on the ground. :-) Sleep? On an airplane? In a chair designed by the Marquis de Sade? Movie? What movie? The Bad News Bears part XXXVII? Scenery? What scenery? I'm in an aisle seat! The answer is obvious: Infocom games!
ncperson@ndsuvax.UUCP (Missing Person) (02/25/88)
In article <45900111@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >---- Concerning laptops on planes----- >>Sleep, watch the movie, read a book, watch the scenery. Plenty of time >>to work on the ground. :-) >Sleep? On an airplane? In a chair designed by the Marquis de Sade? >Movie? What movie? The Bad News Bears part XXXVII? >Scenery? What scenery? I'm in an aisle seat! >The answer is obvious: Infocom games! How 'bout Flight Simulator! YEAH! -Missing