john@wa3wbu.UUCP (John Gayman) (03/04/88)
A freind came to me the other day seeking advise to multi-user
environments. I of course mentioned the various flavors of Unix. He
needs it to run on an AT-class machine.
Anyway, he kept bringing up PC-MOSS by The Software Link. Apparently
he has written to them and received brochures and has spoken with them
on the phone. What these guys are saying is too good to be true.
Basically they're saying that with PC-MOS you can:
1. Have up to 4 users on a XT and 5-9 users on an AT, all running
simultaneous.
2. All users can be simultaneously running ANY MS-DOS application on
a *dumb* terminal. When they say dumb, they mean even like an ADM-3!!
And they dont say just character-based applications, they say ANYTHING.
3. They do require that you buy *their* serial card ($500) and their
"memory management board" ($500).
I'm at a loss! I mean, after he read me the information they sent
it sounds impossible. The ads read like it's Unix and DOS all rolled
into a happy union. I can't beleive that if this were truely "God's
gift to the computer world" that I wouldn't "know" of someone using
it. Can anyone in Net-land shed some light on this ?? I mean, is it
a farce or are there some nasty restrictions that you dont find out about
till *after* you buy ??? I always assumed from the ads that it was a
Windows/Desqview-like environment, but no-holds-bared, true, DOS,
mutli-user/multi-tasking ?? I say naaaa. Input please so I can
save this guy. :-)
John
--
John Gayman, WA3WBU | UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
1869 Valley Rd. | ARPA: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET
Marysville, PA 17053 | Packet: WA3WBU @ AK3P mru@unccvax.UUCP (Markus Ruppel) (03/06/88)
in article <521@wa3wbu.UUCPo, john@wa3wbu.UUCP (John Gayman) says:
o
o
o A freind came to me the other day seeking advise to multi-user
o environments. I of course mentioned the various flavors of Unix. He
o needs it to run on an AT-class machine.
o
o Anyway, he kept bringing up PC-MOSS by The Software Link. Apparently
PC-MOS !
o he has written to them and received brochures and has spoken with them
o on the phone. What these guys are saying is too good to be true.
o
o Basically they're saying that with PC-MOS you can:
o
o 1. Have up to 4 users on a XT and 5-9 users on an AT, all running
o simultaneous.
I haven't seen a MU ( multiuser version ) of PC-MOS so far !
o
o 2. All users can be simultaneously running ANY MS-DOS application on
o a *dumb* terminal. When they say dumb, they mean even like an ADM-3!!
o And they dont say just character-based applications, they say ANYTHING.
This is impossible ! On an XT for example there is no way to trap
direct screen writes of applications, because the 8088/86 doesn't
support any kind of memory protection levels ( as the - brain damaged
- 80286 and - much better - 80386 do ) .
Furthermore PC-MOS is extremely UNSTABLE. A much better system ( multi-
user and multitasking ) is Concurrent DOS ( CDOS ) by Digital Research.
It is available for 8086/88/286 systems ( where it can be used with
EEMS boards, up to 8 MB of memory transparent to applications ) or
for 386 systems using the normal system memory. The 386 version
supports trapping of screen writes and on the fall COMDEX in Las
Vegas they had a 386 running with 10 terminals, each of which
let you play MS flightsimulator.....
o
o 3. They do require that you buy *their* serial card ($500) and their
o "memory management board" ($500).
o
It might be that you have to buy there hardware, for CDOS you can
select between a few different third party vendors' serial and memory
boards.
o I'm at a loss! I mean, after he read me the information they sent
o it sounds impossible.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!!!!
o The ads read like it's Unix and DOS all rolled
o into a happy union. I can't beleive that if this were truely "God's
o gift to the computer world" that I wouldn't "know" of someone using
o it. Can anyone in Net-land shed some light on this ?? I mean, is it
o a farce or are there some nasty restrictions that you dont find out about
o till *after* you buy ??? I always assumed from the ads that it was a
o Windows/Desqview-like environment, but no-holds-bared, true, DOS,
o mutli-user/multi-tasking ?? I say naaaa. Input please so I can
o save this guy. :-)
o
o
o John
o
o
o --
o John Gayman, WA3WBU | UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
o 1869 Valley Rd. | ARPA: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET
o Marysville, PA 17053 | Packet: WA3WBU @ AK3P
Markus
Disclaimer: I'm only a satisfied customer of DRI. No relations
above and beyond that.riml@softart.UUCP (Research in Motion Limited) (03/07/88)
> > in article <521@wa3wbu.UUCPo, john@wa3wbu.UUCP (John Gayman) says: > > o 1. Have up to 4 users on a XT and 5-9 users on an AT, all running > o simultaneous. > > I haven't seen a MU ( multiuser version ) of PC-MOS so far ! Does this mean that you HAVE seen PC-MOS, or that you don't think it is multi-user? All of their advertising indicates that it is available in 1, 5 and 25 user versions. If you know better, please indicate and tell us the basis for your comments. > > o > o 2. All users can be simultaneously running ANY MS-DOS application on > o a *dumb* terminal. When they say dumb, they mean even like an ADM-3!! > o And they dont say just character-based applications, they say ANYTHING. > > This is impossible ! On an XT for example there is no way to trap Yes, there is. If you add your own "memory Management" hardware. If you look at their advertising & actually see their hardware card, which I have, you will know that they have added an ASIC chip to the addressing paths, which would allow such trapping. > Furthermore PC-MOS is extremely UNSTABLE. A much better system ( multi- UNSTABLE? Is this from experience? Please tell! (See below for reason.) > o 3. They do require that you buy *their* serial card ($500) and their > o "memory management board" ($500). > > o I'm at a loss! I mean, after he read me the information they sent > o it sounds impossible. > It's not impossible. Admittedly, it DOES sound too good to be true. The last time I saw the package was in November 1987. At that time they did NOT claim that the software would work on XTs. ATs, yes. 386 machines, yes. On an AT you needed their little memory management unit, which provided the trapping you need, above what the 286 gives you. If they have modified this to provide an 8088 the protection necessary to run PC-MOS then this is news to me. Anyone know for sure? Also, it is something we are considering as a purchase, so I am also interested in hearing from people with FIRST-HAND experience with PC-MOS. Not necessarily from the multi-user point of view, though that would be interesting. It's nearly trivial (after you write the Virtual 86 monitor) to support multiple DOS applications on an 80386. With an intelligent serial card and the appropriate PC terminals, you could easily support a number of DOS users. I write not based on experience with the system, just based on a single demonstration and their advertising. My final comment is that the package is an operating system that is DOS compatible, it is not a DESQv*ew or W*indows type of environment. If my information is incorrect, correct me. I do not claim expert status on PC-MOS. Anyone out there who IS an expert I would like to hear from you before I go out and buy the package. Thanks. --Michael A. Barnstijn (VP Software Systems) Research In Motion Limited 465 Phillip Street, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 6C7 ..!watmath!softart!riml (519) 888-7465
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (03/08/88)
In article <521@wa3wbu.UUCP> john@wa3wbu.UUCP (John Gayman) writes: > > Basically they're saying that with PC-MOS you can: >... >2. All users can be simultaneously running ANY MS-DOS application on > a *dumb* terminal. When they say dumb, they mean even like an ADM-3!! > And they dont say just character-based applications, they say ANYTHING. It is absolutely impossible to run a graphics based applications (like Flight Sim.) on a text-only screen, unless you want to have some pretty ugly graphics! They have to blowing it out their *ss. -- David Beckemeyer | "To understand ranch lingo all yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | have to do is to know in advance what 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | the other feller means an' then pay UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | no attention to what he says"
yuan@uhccux.UUCP (Yuan Chang) (03/09/88)
In article <923@unccvax.UUCP] mru@unccvax.UUCP (Markus Ruppel) writes:
]in article <521@wa3wbu.UUCPo, john@wa3wbu.UUCP (John Gayman) says:
]o
]o A freind came to me the other day seeking advise to multi-user
]o environments. I of course mentioned the various flavors of Unix. He
]o needs it to run on an AT-class machine.
]o
]o Anyway, he kept bringing up PC-MOSS by The Software Link. Apparently
]PC-MOS !
I don't recall seeing a version of PC-MOS for non-386 machines.
For an AT, you'll Multi-Link (which is about half as usable as PC-MOS).
]o 1. Have up to 4 users on a XT and 5-9 users on an AT, all running
]o simultaneous.
]
]I haven't seen a MU ( multiuser version ) of PC-MOS so far !
It is being advertised.
]o 2. All users can be simultaneously running ANY MS-DOS application on
]o a *dumb* terminal. When they say dumb, they mean even like an ADM-3!!
]o And they dont say just character-based applications, they say ANYTHING.
]This is impossible ! On an XT for example there is no way to trap
]direct screen writes of applications, because the 8088/86 doesn't
]support any kind of memory protection levels ( as the - brain damaged
]- 80286 and - much better - 80386 do ) .
Check what you know before you write. PC-MOS on '386 machine
will be able to trap writes to video RAM. Also there are programs
included with PC-MOS (and Multi-Link) that'll modify your program to
use BIOS to write to screen, instead of direct memory writes. Problem
is that not every program can be modified to do that, and that
graphic applications will *definitely* not run on a dumb terminal.
They do sell graphic terminals which can work with graphic applications
though... Also, most well-behaved programs will use BIOS to write to
screen, instead of writing directly to memory.
]o I'm at a loss! I mean, after he read me the information they sent
]o it sounds impossible.
]
]IT IS IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!!!!
Not totally.
]o The ads read like it's Unix and DOS all rolled
]o into a happy union. I can't beleive that if this were truely "God's
]o gift to the computer world" that I wouldn't "know" of someone using
]o it. Can anyone in Net-land shed some light on this ?? I mean, is it
]o a farce or are there some nasty restrictions that you dont find out about
]o till *after* you buy ??? I always assumed from the ads that it was a
]o Windows/Desqview-like environment, but no-holds-bared, true, DOS,
]o mutli-user/multi-tasking ?? I say naaaa. Input please so I can
]o save this guy. :-)
There are restrictions. Best way of running multi-user/multi-
tasking applications is to run Xenix. MS-DOS programs just aren't
written to be multitasked ('386 can get around that, but a '286
can't).
--
Yuan Chang
UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!ucsd!nosc!uhccux!yuan
ARPA: uhccux!yuan@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to
INTERNET: yuan@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?"mru@mcnc.org (Markus Ruppel) (03/15/88)
In article <1650@uhccux.UUCP| yuan@uhccux.UUCP (Yuan Chang) writes: |]-----This is my original posting (Markus Ruppel) |]I haven't seen a MU ( multiuser version ) of PC-MOS so far ! | | It is being advertised. That doesn't mean that you can order it or even work with it. | |]This is impossible ! On an XT for example there is no way to trap |]direct screen writes of applications, because the 8088/86 doesn't |]support any kind of memory protection levels ( as the - brain damaged |]- 80286 and - much better - 80386 do ) . | | Check what you know before you write. PC-MOS on '386 machine |will be able to trap writes to video RAM. Also there are programs I think if I should check what I write you should check what you answer. :-) My above statement was targeted to a 8086/88 and I assume it should be obvious from the '(....)'-text that I recognize the abilities of a 80386. |included with PC-MOS (and Multi-Link) that'll modify your program to |use BIOS to write to screen, instead of direct memory writes. I have a problem to imagine a program which checks another program for direct screen/memory writes. Are they replacing every MOV instruction which has a destination in the adapter address space and create BIOS ints to move byte by byte or what. What if the same loop to MOV to the display adapter is used to move data around inside the program, just with a different destination ? Any responses on this aspect are aprreciated, esp. from a PC-MOS expert. |Problem |is that not every program can be modified to do that, and that |graphic applications will *definitely* not run on a dumb terminal. This might be the case for PC-MOS, but if you can run a terminal in PC-SCAN mode ( okay, it is not a dumb terminal anymore...:-) ) you are able to run even a graphic application on a serial terminal. Concurrent DOS for the 386 is able to do that. |They do sell graphic terminals which can work with graphic applications |though... Also, most well-behaved programs will use BIOS to write to |screen, instead of writing directly to memory. But there are A LOT of unbehaved programs out there which go straight to the screen. | |]IT IS IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!!!! | | Not totally. Depending on your hardware ! | | There are restrictions. Best way of running multi-user/multi- |tasking applications is to run Xenix. MS-DOS programs just aren't |written to be multitasked ('386 can get around that, but a '286 |can't). But if you have invested in DOS apps during the last 5 years, Xenix is not the best choice. | |-- |Yuan Chang Markus