stefan@helios.toronto.edu (Stefan Mochnacki) (04/30/88)
Sun386i : First Impressions from a PC Perspective
Stefan W. Mochnacki
David Dunlap Observatory
Dept. of Astronomy
University of Toronto
I attended one of Sun's "open house" sessions on Thursday April
14. Two RR250's with 16-inch color monitors were up and running.
I went armed with a 720KB 3.5" diskette carrying two Microsoft
FORTRAN-77 v.4.0 applications developed on my trusty old Compaq
Portable (I). I had no problem loading them up and running them
in CGA windows. Interactive graphics using HALO routines worked
well and extremely quickly; I found the new Sun keyboard highly
compatible with the PC one. Multiple DOS windows could be brought
up, moved and hidden easily. There was one slight glitch in the
CGA graphics under HALO, but there was a mouse-driven pull-down-
menu re-draw function which helped overcome it. The SunOS was
described as "early beta-version".
One of my applications is a benchmark which runs in 40
seconds on a standard 4.77 MHz PC with 8087 compiled under MS-F77
v.4.0, and in 4.6 seconds on a Sun 3/110 with 68881 compiled
under f77. On the 386i RR250 the MS-F77 (16-bit) version ran in
roughly 5 seconds wrist-watch time. This was a very rough
measurement, but indicates that 8087-intensive 16-bit PC code
runs respectably on the 386i in a DOS window. Sun claims the 3
MIPS-rated RR150 runs at 0.25 Linpack megaflops (???), and 1.6 M
Whetstones. The RR250 is rated at 5 MIPS.
The 16-inch color monitor is impressive; it's a very flat
SONY unit, with rich colours and excellent resolution (standard
1152 x 900 pixels x 8 bits). Unfortunately, they didn't have on
display a 14" colour monitor (1024 x 768 pixels x 8 bits), which
is much cheaper. The 19" B/W monochrome monitor is the same price
as the 14" color; a 15" mono with 1152 x 900 pixels is about
$1000 less. Screen I/O appears to be very fast. In addition to
native Sun graphics, the CGA, HGC (Hercules) and MDA (mono)
display modes of DOS are supported. Under development is a board
which will support up to 4 EGA or VGA windows on a separate
monitor.
<<< The Sun people say there are no compatibility problems with
the smaller number of pixels in the 14" model. Would this be true
for user-written applications ? >>>
The CPU is housed in an attractive squat vertical floor-
mounted unit. An optional expansion box for tape and disk sits on
top of it; the combined unit then resembles a PS/2 Model 80. The
internal layout is interesting and expandable: 4 proprietary 32-
bit slots (one used by the memory board, another by the frame
buffer), 3 16-bit AT slots and one 8-bit XT slot. The AT/XT bus
runs at 1/4 the system clock, so on a 20 MHz RR150 that's 5 Mhz,
rather slower than the 6-10 Mhz of most AT buses. The 32-bit Sun
slots run at full system speed (20 or 25 MHz).
*** <<<Note for number crunchers: A Weitek co-processor
board is "under development", and the compilers will
support it. >>> ***
Overall, I was impressed by the system. It combines MS-DOS,
UNIX (V & BSD, or is it mainly BSD 4.3?), and a "user-friendly"
interface analogous to the Mac if you want it. System and network
administration is said to be a "SNAP" (no kidding); welcome news
given the high cost of UNIX gurus. For the FIRST time we have a
fully-configured 386 system marrying MS-DOS, UNIX, high-powered
graphics and networking, which WORKS. It is claimed to be FULLY
source-code compatible with the Sun 3 and Sun 4 lines; SunOS
version 4 will be the new standard across all Sun product lines.
There were some disappointments:
(1) Only the "C" compiler will be bundled with the full
developer's kit version of SunOS v.4. Fortran "f77" will have to
be bought separately, but I was told the price would be
reasonable.
<<< I now have some information from the US which suggests the
f77 compiler will cost about US$1000 >>>
(2) There is only one serial port on the motherboard, and one
parallel printer port. However, there are supposed to be several
manufacturers of AT-compatible serial boards who will support the
Sun386i. This makes some sense, since such boards are
"intelligent" and impose little CPU overhead; unfortunately, they
are expensive (typ. US$1300). (See April 4 Infoworld).
(3) Delivery times on the RR150 are 90-120 days ...
Pricing for academic users: << All prices CAN $, in Toronto >>
The news is quite good. Don't forget the price includes an 80387
floating-point co-processor, 4 Megabytes DRAM (the 32K cache-
equipped version is about $1500 more), an Ethernet interface,
SCSI controller, a 1.4MB AT-compatible 3.5" floppy drive, video
display unit and monitor as listed below:
Model # List
(Diskless) (FST & duty out)
CAN $
RR150SC-4 (with 14" color monitor) 13500
RR150FC-4 (with 16" color monitor) 16500
RR150M-4 (with 19" monochrome) 13500
For a 327MB disk from Sun, add $8000 to the list price.
For an expansion box with 60MB cartridge tape drive and 327MB
disk, add $12000 to above list prices.
For software and documentation, plus Fortran, add about $2000-
2500. <<< Revised figure; actual amount not yet available >>>
For mono unit with 15" monitor, subtract about $1500 from 19".
*** Note about disks: A CDC Wren IV, 300MB formatted, SCSI, can
be had for $2752 from Dilog. A power supply and box can be had
for about $200 from Computer Parts Galore .....
<<< Disk price revised April 15, 1988. Price dropped $550 ! >>>
Thus, a stand-alone or server colour Sun386i can be set up for
about $14,000 with discounts available to academic buyers (and
others I presume). I recently priced out a similarly-configured
"it came by boat" no-name 386 clone and it cost more, with no
certainty that it would actually work ! Ditto for a heavily-
discounted Compaq 386/20. The point is that "street-market" PC
stuff comes with no extras, whereas the Sun386i comes fully
configured for serious work, and will WORK. The "list" prices in
the "street" PC market are quite misleading ...
***Note re PC-NFS: Networking with PC's:
Discounts apply only to quantity. The prices below are for 5-24
units.
CAN $
PC-NFS-51 (Software only, media, docs + license) $445
PC-NFS-3C51 (3Com card + SW + docs + license) $1,185
I am presently investigating cheaper cards . The Western Digital
card apparently works, and others have appeared on the market.
(The local 3Com distributor is Compuserve, ph.477-8088 (??)) ***
CONCLUSION
This is an impressive machine, combining the UNIX and PC/MS-
DOS worlds in an expandable system, with excellent graphics and
automated system management. (Expandibility is important when
considering the likelihood of "supercomputer-on-a-card"
accelerators becoming available ...). It is cheaper (at present)
than the Sun 3/60 and is much more expandable. I would like to
buy one.
__________________________________________________
Some of my colleagues are not as enthusiastic: here follows a
series of questions I've mulled over and digested from various
discussions, and sent to the Sun representatives:
(1) Use of DOS from remote node or terminal:
Can one use DOSwindows (copyright notice on screen revealed
it to be VP/IX) on the 386i AT ALL from a remote node using NFS
or PC-NFS, or from a terminal on a serial line ? Yesterday I was
led to believe that one could run simple jobs. While I don't need
sophisticated remote DOS graphics or direct screen-writing stuff,
one of the big reasons I want the machine is to be able to do big
compiles and linking remotely in DOS. I have heard strange
stories about Microsoft and legal wrangles ...
PS: Could a 3rd party product such as DOSmerge be run on the
Sun 386i to get around these problems ...?
(2) Upgrading PC-NFS:
Does latest PC-NFS have any windowing or x11/NeWs capability?
Any other graphics capability ?
(3) DOS task priority/time-slicing:
Can the "nice" number of DOS windows be set ? Can DOS tasks
be manually stopped ? (i.e. can they be truly suspended, not just
set to run in the background?) I'm asking this because certain
DOS applications and certain DOS system calls involve dumb
polling loops which waste zillions of cycles. I'm very aware of
this because I have been using a multi-tasking environment for
95% of my PC work over the past 4 years. I've even written
polling turkeys myself ... you really feel them on a 5Mhz PC
running DoubleDOS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I have no connection with Sun Microsystems. The opinions are my own.
--
Stefan W. Mochnacki INTERNET - stefan@helios.physics.toronto.edu
Astronomy, U. Toronto UUCP - {uunet,pyramid}!utai!helios!stefan
+1 (416) 884-9562 BITNET - mochnacki@utorphys.bitnet jxh@cup.portal.com (05/02/88)
As a prospective buyer of the Sun386i, I have been extracting technical information about it from Sun employees at their East Coast Division (ECD) which produced it. I have posted some early notes to Sun-Spots (comp.sys.sun), which were a bit alarming due to incompleteness of my information at that time. I have since received a number of corrections and clarifications from ECD, and posted a note to Sun-Spots a week ago (which might make it out in another week). When I think I've gotten my facts straight, I will post an extended treatment of the MS-DOS compatilibility, in detail. I, too, am very impressed with the machine. I've written a purchase req. for three of them. I love the 16" Sony color monitor. I was going to buy Sun 3/1xx machines anyway because I want to migrate to UNIX to take advantage of the networking software (distributed application), but the MS-DOS capability of the '386i is tantalizing, and will make my migration smoother and allow me to get my program at least limping along within days. Being an old 8086 hand, I have a substantial number of little indispensable utility programs (most in 8086 assembly) that I want to bring with me when I go to UNIX-land. A year ago, I didn't imagine that I even could. I wish I could afford to buy one for myself. ---------- Jim Hickstein, VSAT Systems, Inc, San Jose, CA (408) 435-8016 jxh@cup.portal.com ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!jxh Of course, neither I nor my employer is affiliated with Sun Microsystems. I'm just an enthusiastic consumer.
pavlov@hscfvax.harvard.edu (G.Pavlov) (05/02/88)
In article <555@helios.toronto.edu>, stefan@helios.toronto.edu (Stefan Mochnacki) writes: > Sun386i : First Impressions from a PC Perspective > [ .... many lines deleted ..... ] > For a 327MB disk from Sun, add $8000 to the list price. > For an expansion box with 60MB cartridge tape drive and 327MB > disk, add $12000 to above list prices. > It's not as bad as that, according to the price list I received: For a 327MB disk from Sun, add $6000 to the list price. For an expansion box with 60MB cartridge tape drive and a 327MB disk, add $8000 to above list prices. > > CONCLUSION > > This is an impressive machine, combining the UNIX and PC/MS- > DOS worlds in an expandable system, with excellent graphics and > automated system management. (Expandibility is important when > considering the likelihood of "supercomputer-on-a-card" > accelerators becoming available ...). It is cheaper (at present) > than the Sun 3/60 and is much more expandable. I would like to > buy one. > __________________________________________________ > I agree. One more point: the system comes with a two-user SUNOS license- tho 2nd user needs to connect via standard tty port. greg pavlov, fstrf, amherst, ny
pavlov@hscfvax.harvard.edu (G.Pavlov) (05/02/88)
Did not notice that prices I "corrected" were in Canadian dollars. Here is a
summary of Sun 386i prices in U.S. currency:
1. Base Models:
a. RR150 - 20mhz 80386 with 4 meg memory, 20 mhz 80387 co-proc, ethernet
and SCSI controllers, serial and parallel ports, 3.5" floppy drive,
keyboard, mouse, 15" 1152x900 monochrome monitor, 2-user SunOS license
with "integrated MS-DOS 3.3"......................................$7990
b. RR150X - same as above, but with 32 kbyte static cache ...........$9490
c. RR250 - as above, but: 25 mhz 80386 and 80387, 8 meg memory, 32 kbytes
cache, 19" 1152x900 monochrome monitor ..........................$13990
2. Hardware Additions (price additions to base models):
a. Monitors (substitute cost):
i. 19" monochrome (for RR150 models) $1000
ii. 14" color, 1024x768 $1000
iii. 16" color, 1152x900 $3000
iv. 19" color, 1152x900 $7000
b. Memory and Storage:
i. 4 meg SIMM memory (system max: 16 meg) $2000
ii. 91 meg, 16 msec drive $2000
iii. 327 meg, 16.5 msec drive $6000
iv. expansion box with 60 meg, 1/4" tape drive $2000
v. same as (iv), but including 2nd (327) meg disk $8000
3. Gotcha's
a. "application SunOS" and manuals, on tape $325
b. "applcation SunOS and Developer's toolkit" (C), on tape $550
c. same as (a), but on floppies $550
d. same as (b), but on floppies $850
- implication in price list that only one copy needed per site. Not
sure that this applies to "Developer's toolkit". Also not sure if
"on tape/floppy" means man pages AND substitue for printed manuals.
- SunOS also comes preinstalled on disk, for systems ordered with disk.
Hard to tell what is included in this SunOS. It is 4.0, with at least
a Mac-type interface, VP/ix, and basic network software tossed in as
standard issue. But the local salesperson claims that the total distri-
bution consumes only 30 meg, which is either dead wrong or implies that
much has been left out and/or unbundled.
Pricing is purely additive e.g., no built-in discounts in systems. The
underlying price increase from one base model to the one directly "above"
it is $1500. So, for example:
RR150 ($7990) + 2 jumps to RR250 ($3000) + 4 megs memory ($2000) +
19" monochrome sub. for 15" ($1000) = RR250 ($13990)
and so on.....
greg pavlov, fstrf, amherst, ny.
(no connection to SUN, etc; prices accurate as given me, etc)jpl@edison.GE.COM (Pim Little) (05/09/88)
Does anyone know if the hardware architecture of the Sun 386i is proprietary to SUN? Or could it possibly be compatible to Compaq 386 world? Pim Little GE Fanuc jpl@edison.GE.COM
jxh@cup.portal.com (05/18/88)
jpl@edison.GE.COM (Pim Little) writes: >Does anyone know if the hardware architecture of the Sun 386i is >proprietary to SUN? Or could it possibly be compatible to Compaq >386 world? I think the frame buffer is the hardest thing to duplicate exactly. It needs to be 768x1024, and 10 bits deep! I don't know if anyone is making such a display adapter, but I'm sure quite a bit of the software that runs on the Sun386i depends on the existence of such a display at certain addresses. Also, using the I/O Channel to talk to such a board would probably be much slower than putting it directly on the CPU bus, as in the Sun. I also suspect there are other differences in hardware, but if you buy the sources you should be able to overcome them. In short, it should be possible, but I think it would be highly ambitious. Legal matters will probably intervene. Sun makes their OS to sell their machines. I think it is impossible, and will continue to be so, to obtain a binary license without buying the hardware, let alone a source license. If I were you, I'd just buy the Sun machine and get on with it. The prices seem steep compared to stripped-down 386 clones, but when you look at what you get (including the OS) the Sun386i is quite competitive (assuming you were going to put all those things into your 386 clone eventually anyway). -Jim Hickstein, VSAT Systems, Inc., San Jose CA jxh@cup.portal.com ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!jxh
zdenko@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Zdenko Tomasic) (05/19/88)
In article <1504@edison.GE.COM> jpl@edison.GE.COM (Pim Little) writes: >Does anyone know if the hardware architecture of the Sun 386i is >proprietary to SUN? Or could it possibly be compatible to Compaq >386 world? > > Pim Little > GE Fanuc > jpl@edison.GE.COM From what I was told, the 32-bit bus is proprietory. It is used both for memory and hard disk which would make it uncompatible to Compaq 386, but you do get 4 XT/AT slots. Zdenko Tomasic UWM, Chem. Dept. Milwaukee,WI,53201 __________________________________________________________ UUCP: ihnp4!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!zdenko ARPA: zdenko@csd4.milw.wisc.edu __________________________________________________________