daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) (08/09/88)
When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of
the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something
designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces?
The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they
shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys.
Any suggestions via e-mail would be appreciated.
-- Dave Hampton
--
Reply to: uiucuxc!tikal!phred!daveh {Dave Hampton}
Addr: Research Division, Physio-Control Corp.
P.O. Box 97006
Redmond, WA 98073-9706mlawless@ncrwic.Wichita.NCR.COM (Mike Lawless) (08/09/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? >The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they >shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys. I have noticed the same thing when using Norton "Speed Disk." I don't have any copy-protected software either, so I tried scanning all of my directories looking for hidden files. I didn't find any. Just a theory, but it could have something to do with a logical error in the FAT. Try running CHKDSK. (In my case, this did not turn up any problem, but you never know.) Mike Lawless
brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) (08/09/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes:
<
< When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of
<the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something
<designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces?
<The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they
<shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys.
READ ONLY, HIDDEN or SYSTEM files.
--
harvard-\ att!terminus--\
Mr. Video ucbvax!uwvax.................!nicmad!brown
rutgers-/ att-/ decvax--/denbeste@bgsuvax.UUCP (William C. DenBesten) (08/10/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of > the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something > designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? I can not claim any expertise with MS/PC-DOS or Norton Utilities, but... Could they be bad sectors on the hard disk that have been locked out? -- William C. DenBesten denbeste@bgsu.edu
passaret@brahe.steinmetz.ge.com (Mr. Mike Passaretti) (08/10/88)
In article <1385@ncrwic.Wichita.NCR.COM> mlawless@ncrwic.UUCP (Mike Lawless) writes: >In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: >> >> When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >>the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >>designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? >>The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they >>shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys. > >I have noticed the same thing when using Norton "Speed Disk." I don't have >any copy-protected software either, so I tried scanning all of my directories >looking for hidden files. I didn't find any. Just a theory, but it could >have something to do with a logical error in the FAT. Try running CHKDSK. >(In my case, this did not turn up any problem, but you never know.) > >Mike Lawless It's DOS, guys. MSDOS.SYS and IO.SYS or IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM (MS-DOS and PC-DOS) are immovable objects, and Norton is not an irresistible force |-). The program is smart enough to know that it shouldn't muck with these files, since some versions of the OS's need them to be the first directory entries, or be the first thing on the disk, or both. No magic, nothing wrong, that's just the way it works. (By the way, any file which is hidden (I'm sure about this) or has its system bit set (I'm-a no so sure of-a dis) will be 'Unmovable') - MM -- "Mr. Mike" Passaretti |"This is a wedding, Gisbourne, NOT a celebration." | DisClaimer |ARPA: passaret@brahe.steinmetz.ge.com DatClaimer |UUCP: {philabs, rochester, uunet}!steinmetz!crd!passaret DeOtherClaimer |WRPI: 30 years of Agressive Radio(tm) 91.5 FM, Troy, NY --
jcmorris@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Joseph C. Morris) (08/10/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? >The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they >shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys. > The "Unmovable Space" flag is set for any file which is marked "hidden" or "system"; it is also set for files whose names come close to or match those of the two sacred boot-time files. (These are IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM in the PC-DOS systems.) I had the same question a while back and discovered that the MSDOS.EXE placeholder file in Windows was triggering the "X" flag in Norton's SD code. Norton's documentation is completely silent on this issue.
daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) (08/10/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? Many thanks to all who replied to this message... Several folks suggested that the X's were lost clusters, which could be removed with CHKDSK /F. This did turn out to be the source of the problem, and the hard disk map is now free of all of the annoying X's. -- Dave Hampton -- Reply to: uiucuxc!tikal!phred!daveh {Dave Hampton} Addr: Research Division, Physio-Control Corp. P.O. Box 97006 Redmond, WA 98073-9706
jlh@loral.UUCP (The Mad Merkin Hunter) (08/11/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? >The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they >shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys. When I first got microsofts 5.1 C compiler I played around with the editor they provided. When I was done I found a directory 'deleted', in it were some files I had been playing with. None of these files could be deleted! I had to use Norton to re-set the attributes before I could nuke the bloody things. The bush I'm beating around is that when I ran speed disk with that directory there I had a block of 15-20 unmovable spaces. These vanished when I deleted the files. Now I only have 2 blocks of unmovable spaces, one at the beginning of the disk with 2 spaces, which I assume is the boot track, and another block of 1 space in the middle of my disk. Jim "Most mothers don't think there is a woman in the world good enough for her son. My mother may be right." -- Jim Harkins Loral Instrumentation, San Diego {ucbvax, ittvax!dcdwest, akgua, decvax, ihnp4}!ucsd!sdcc6!loral!jlh
bturner@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Bill Turner) (08/11/88)
Norton SD won't move files that it thinks are used for copy protection. This includes hidden files, files in hidden directories, or (the one that bit me frequently) when an .EXE file doesn't start with the standard "magic number" (such as a .COM being renamed to an .EXE, or a dummy .EXE file) --Bill Turner
wew@naucse.UUCP (Bill Wilson) (08/11/88)
> In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > >> When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >> the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >> designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? > These are normally hidden or system files. Most of the better packages for doing compression or file checking will not move or alter these spaces for fear of the system not working or having a copy protection scheme go south. -- Bill Wilson (Bitnet: ucc2wew@nauvm) Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011 {These views are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer}
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (08/12/88)
In article <1385@ncrwic.Wichita.NCR.COM> mlawless@ncrwic.UUCP (Mike Lawless) writes: <In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: <> <> When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of <>the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something <>designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? <>The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they <>shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys. < <I have noticed the same thing when using Norton "Speed Disk." I don't have <any copy-protected software either, so I tried scanning all of my directories <looking for hidden files. I didn't find any. Just a theory, but it could <have something to do with a logical error in the FAT. Try running CHKDSK. I seem to recall that this is space occupied by any file that has the SYSTEM attribute. Such files are *never* to be moved (for example, until recently, IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM *had* to be the first two files on the disk, move them and the system won't boot) -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'. You know... I'd rather be a hacker."
rlb@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Robert Lee Bailey) (08/12/88)
In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of >the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something >designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? >The manual doesn't say. I'm not using copy protected software, so they >shouldn't be related to any hidden files or keys. > I believe that those are the areas of the hard disk which contain bad sectors. That makes them UNMOVABLE!
jcmorris@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Joseph C. Morris) (08/12/88)
In article <6083@xanth.cs.odu.edu> rlb@cs.odu.edu (Robert Lee Bailey) writes: >In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: >> [discussion of Norton's disk map marking some blocks with 'X' as unmovable] >I believe that those are the areas of the hard disk which contain >bad sectors. That makes them UNMOVABLE! Nope; clusters which are flagged in the FAT as failed are marked with a blinking'B' by the Norton displays. They are of course unmovable, but that's irrelevent since if they are marked as unusable in the FAT they can't be assigned to a file. Joe Morris
jlh@loral.UUCP (Physically Pffft) (08/13/88)
Ok, so we all know what causes unmovable spaces under Norton. So how do we
find out which are the offending files? I mean, besides going through them
one by one checking their attributes. Not on a 40 meg hard disk, nope, not
me, nosirreebob.
jim
Most mothers don't think there is a woman in the world who is good enough
for her son. My mother may be right.
--
Jim Harkins
Loral Instrumentation, San Diego
{ucbvax, ittvax!dcdwest, akgua, decvax, ihnp4}!ucsd!sdcc6!loral!jlhrichard@neabbs.UUCP (RICHARD RONTELTAP) (08/15/88)
[ Finding the files that cause 'unmovable' spaces with Norton SD ] I have a few of these unmovable spaces too. The first thing I though of was file attributes. You can find these relatively easy with FA /U /S in the root dir of your harddisk. It find all files with 'unusual' attributes. Unfortunately files with the 'archive' bit set are also considered to be 'unusual'. But it turned out that there were no such files present (besides IBMCOM and IBMBIO of course, wich are accounted for at the beginning o the disk) I would like to find the offending files too. Unusual attributes are out, CHKDSK runs OK and I don't use copy protected programs which must be installed on harddisk. Any suggestions? Richard (...!mcvax!neabbs!richard)
kevinc@auvax.UUCP (Kevin "auric" Crocker) (08/16/88)
In article <1385@ncrwic.Wichita.NCR.COM>, mlawless@ncrwic.Wichita.NCR.COM (Mike Lawless) writes: > In article <2306@phred.UUCP> daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) writes: > > > > When using the Advanced Version 4.0 of the Norton Utilities, the map of > >the hard disk shows available space, filled space, bad blocks, and something > >designated "Unmovable Space", shown with an "X". What are these spaces? Just to toss something into the For Your Infor basket - on a Zenith laptop I am using at home the same thing appeared when I tested out sd and I went looking for the unmovable space. Well eventually I found it - it was an altmenu.sys file - a thing needed when you set up the machine for hard disks and other fancy stuff This file is generated by the setup program and, at least on my machine, it does not appear as a regular file but rather as a collection of stuff that was direct sector addressed and written directl;y to a VERY particular spot on the hard disk.
evm2y@watt.acc.Virginia.EDU (Ernest V. Mathews III) (08/16/88)
jlh@loral.UUCP (Physically Pffft) writes: >Ok, so we all know what causes unmovable spaces under Norton. So how do we >find out which are the offending files? I mean, besides going through them >one by one checking their attributes. Not on a 40 meg hard disk, nope, not >me, nosirreebob. > jim How about this command: C:\>fa /u /s This will find all files on the disk with unusual attributes. A file will appear in the list if any attribute bit is set. Archive, Hidden, System, Read-only. Ernie Mathews evm2y@virginia.edu
rde@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (R.D.Eager) (08/16/88)
I sent this to the original poster but it may be worth repeating
here. Yes, hidden and system files are marked unmovable by SpeedDisk. So
are some others. After some investigation, I found the unmovable file
on my disk (not a hidden or system file) was the old DPATH utility for
handling data paths. My surmise is that Norton left it alone because it
contained the string PATH...anyone have any better ideas?
--
Bob Eager
rde@ukc.UUCP
...!mcvax!ukc!rde
Phone: +44 227 764000 ext 7589rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) (08/16/88)
<A lot of people talking about unmovable files, and about finding them>
Well, I have once again snuck out of the woodwork to say something useless:
I have an at clone running MsDos 3.2 (I think), and chkdisk says that my
second hard disk partition (a 40 meg seagate with 2 partitions, c and d)
has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it.
After much time spent with pctools trying to find the hidden file/dir, I have
finally decided that it is not to be found. Real Soon Now I will try the
fa /u /s command, but I hold little hope for finding anything. BUt if I do find
it with fa, then I shall report back to the net....
I have run DOG (Disk OrGanizer) on my disks many times... any connection?
-----
Rusty Carruth \ Cadnetix \ 5775 Flatiron Pkwy. \ Boulder CO 80301 \ (303) 444-8075
'HOME': P.O. Box 461 \ Lafayette, CO 80026 RADIO: N7IKQ
UUCP:cadnetix!rusty DOMAIN:rusty@cadnetix.com PATH?:{uunet,boulder}!cadnetix!rustybobmon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (RAMontante) (08/17/88)
Bad sectors are understandably unmovable. If you want to locate them (and incidentally discover unrecognized bad sectors) you can use Norton's disktest (DT) program with the sectors option. -- -- bob,mon (bobmon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu) -- "Aristotle was not Belgian..." - Wanda
csd@drutx.ATT.COM (Scott Davis) (08/17/88)
My Norton Utilities Manual reads as follows: "Certain copy-protected programs put one or more files on your hard disk that must not be relocated. ... Most of these protection techniques set the hidden or system attribute (or both) for their immovable files; a few use other methods. "Speed Disk takes special precautions to avoid disturbing such programs. Each file on a disk is examined separately. The following items are never moved: any hidden file or hidden subdirectory, any files within a hidden subdirectory, and any hidden subdirectories of hidden subdirectories. There are a few copy-protection schemes (from Vault and Softguard Systems, for example) that do not hide their copy-protected program files. Speed Disk recognizes these files as well and does not move them." Conclusion: Files do not have to be hidden or system files to be unmoveable. In fact, I have tracked down some of the unmoveable blocks on my disk (by selectively removing files and then running SD) and found them to be programs that were none of the above, but that apparently looked that way to SD. Scott Davis
brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) (08/17/88)
In article <19118@neabbs.UUCP> richard@neabbs.UUCP (RICHARD RONTELTAP) writes:
<[ Finding the files that cause 'unmovable' spaces with Norton SD ]
<
<I would like to find the offending files too. Unusual attributes are
<out, CHKDSK runs OK and I don't use copy protected programs which must
<be installed on harddisk.
Norton's also get tripped up on names of files. It has some parameters
that it uses to "think" that the file is special and it will then skip
it.
I would suggest running the SD program. This will put everything else in
order. Then by using the NU program, one can dig around the system to
find a file where the directory entry's starting cluster just isn't in
order with the rest of the files. This will take a little research, but
the offending file can be found. Also, you can get a general idea of the
cluster number by counting the number of special characters on the SD
screen. Each special character is worth x number of clusters, noted on
the bottom of the screen. From this general location, NU can be used to
find the location. I've done it.
--
harvard-\ att--\
Mr. Video ucbvax!uwvax.................!nicmad!brown
rutgers-/ rolls-/ decvax--/rde@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (R.D.Eager) (08/17/88)
I found the offending file (DPATH in my case, see my earlier posting) as
follows.
First, run NU to display the disk map. Use the position of the blob for the
unmovable file to get a rough estimate of the starting cluster number (NU
tells you the number of clusters per blob).
Second, use NU to look at the files around that area. Copy them off the disk
if possible.
Not trivial, but it beats trying every file on the disk.
--
Bob Eager
rde@ukc.UUCP
...!mcvax!ukc!rde
Phone: +44 227 764000 ext 7589dixon@control.steinmetz (walt dixon) (08/17/88)
The hidden file is the volume label. CHKDSK increments the hidden file count if the bit 3 (volume) or bit 1 (hidden) of the directory attributes is set. I don't know if this is a bug or a feature.
spolsky@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Joel Spolsky) (08/17/88)
In article <3615@cadnetix.COM> rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) writes: | <A lot of people talking about unmovable files, and about finding them> | | I have an at clone running MsDos 3.2 (I think), and chkdisk says that my | second hard disk partition (a 40 meg seagate with 2 partitions, c and d) | has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it. | Thats the disk label, which shows up as a hidden file with 0 bytes. Delete it with the "label" command. Joel Spolsky Bell Communications Research
marco@hpmcaa.HP.COM (Marco Dalla-Gasperina) (08/18/88)
>/ hpmcaa:comp.sys.ibm.pc / rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) / 7:02 am Aug 16, 1988 / > >Well, I have once again snuck out of the woodwork to say something useless: > >I have an at clone running MsDos 3.2 (I think), and chkdisk says that my >second hard disk partition (a 40 meg seagate with 2 partitions, c and d) >has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it. > >After much time spent with pctools trying to find the hidden file/dir, I have >finally decided that it is not to be found. > Rusty Carruth -------------------- Does your drive have a Volume name? Volume names are files with the volume attribute set, and take up zero length. marco
bmarsh@cod.NOSC.MIL (William C. Marsh) (08/18/88)
In article <3615@cadnetix.COM> rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) writes: >has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it. Don't spend too much time looking, it's just the volume label... ----- Bill Marsh, Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA {arpa,mil}net: bmarsh@cod.nosc.mil uucp: {ihnp4,akgua,decvax,dcdwest,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!nosc!bmarsh "If everything seems to be coming your way, you're probably in the wrong lane."
markd@proxftl.UUCP (Mark Davidson) (08/18/88)
In article <3615@cadnetix.COM> rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) writes: >I have an at clone running MsDos 3.2 (I think), and chkdisk says that my >second hard disk partition (a 40 meg seagate with 2 partitions, c and d) >has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it. > If your second disk partition has a volume label, then that is probably your hidden file. When you assign a volume label to a drive, it is stored in the FAT with the hidden and volume-label bits turned on and with no clusters assigned to it. Chkdsk will then report this file as hidden with no bytes assigned to it. -- --- In real life: Mark E. Davidson uflorida!novavax!proxftl!markd Proximity Technologies, 3511 NE 22nd Ave, Ft. Lauderdale FL, 33308 #define STANDARD_DISCLAIMER <Quote construction site>
t32726k@kaira.HUT.FI (Timo Kiravuo) (08/19/88)
In article <3615@cadnetix.COM> rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) writes: >I have an at clone running MsDos 3.2 (I think), and chkdisk says that my >second hard disk partition (a 40 meg seagate with 2 partitions, c and d) >has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it. >After much time spent with pctools trying to find the hidden file/dir, I have >finally decided that it is not to be found. Does your disk have a name, ie. volume label? It appears as a hidden file on the disk. Mine has three partitions, of which the first contains three hidden files (system files plus label) and the other two contain one hidden file each. You can delete the hidden file by removing the volume name (but now that you know what it is, maybe you do not want to erase it after all). Timo Kiravuo ! Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Center Ruukinlahdentie 7 A 4 ! U044B ! kiravuo@hupu.hut.fi 00200 Helsinki, FINLAND ! 90-451 2448 ! ...!mcvax!santra!hupu!kiravuo 90-676 076, 90-676 773 ! <disclaim?> ! kiravuo%hupu.hut.fi@fingate.bitnet
brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) (08/20/88)
In article <600@proxftl.UUCP> markd@proxftl.UUCP (Mark Davidson) writes: <In article <3615@cadnetix.COM> rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) writes: <>I have an at clone running MsDos 3.2 (I think), and chkdisk says that my <>second hard disk partition (a 40 meg seagate with 2 partitions, c and d) <>has 1 hidden file (or directory, I forget) with 0 bytes in it. <> <If your second disk partition has a volume label, then that is probably your <hidden file. When you assign a volume label to a drive, it is stored in the <FAT with the hidden and volume-label bits turned on and with no clusters <assigned to it. Chkdsk will then report this file as hidden with no bytes <assigned to it. Sorry, but VOLIDs are only entries in the root directory of the appropriate disk/diskette partition. There are no corresponding FAT entries. -- harvard-\ att--\ Mr. Video ucbvax!uwvax.................!nicmad!brown rutgers-/ rolls-/ decvax--/
sar@datcon.UUCP (Simon A Reap) (09/23/88)
(ancient discussion, I know, but I didn't know our News was broken until today) In article <15518@santra.UUCP> t32726k@kaira.UUCP (Timo Kiravuo) writes: >In article <3615@cadnetix.COM> rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) writes: >>>etc etc etc.... >one hidden file each. You can delete the hidden file by removing the >volume name (but now that you know what it is, maybe you do not want >to erase it after all). > I'd suggest not deleting the volume label. Every time you do a directory listing, DOS searches for the label and displays it at the top of the listing. If you do not have a label, DOS has to search your entire directory to discover this, slowing DIR down considerably (and we don't want to make DOS any slower than we have to, do we, playmates :-) -- Enjoy, yerluvinunclesimon Opinions are mine - I don't even have a cat Reach me at sar@datcon.co.uk, or ...!mcvax!ukc!pyrltd!datcon!sar