jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) (02/06/89)
In article <92.23EB72B5@muadib.FIDONET.ORG> Ed.Maurer@f7.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Ed Maurer) writes: >... I personally wouldnt >put them [Maxtors] in the same league with Core or Priam, but a step ahead of >the Seagate/Miniscribe crowd. Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of the best. Have I been misinformed? -- James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET ...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa! Compu$erve: 71261,1731 "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin
bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) (02/07/89)
In article <6135@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: > In article <92.23EB72B5@muadib.FIDONET.ORG> Ed.Maurer@f7.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Ed Maurer) writes: > >... I personally wouldnt > >put them [Maxtors] in the same league with Core or Priam, but a step ahead of > >the Seagate/Miniscribe crowd. > > Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of > the best. Have I been misinformed? No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been misinformed. -- "Somebody help me! I'm trapped in this computer!" Brent Barrett ..pacbell!sactoh0!bkbarret GEMAIL: B.K.BARRETT
mcintyre@rpics (David McIntyre) (02/07/89)
In article <677@sactoh0.UUCP> bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) writes: >In article <6135@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: >> In article <92.23EB72B5@muadib.FIDONET.ORG> Ed.Maurer@f7.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Ed Maurer) writes: >> >... I personally wouldnt >> >put them [Maxtors] in the same league with Core or Priam, but a step ahead of >> >the Seagate/Miniscribe crowd. >> >> Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of >> the best. Have I been misinformed? > > No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you >get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been >misinformed. >-- > Brent Barrett ..pacbell!sactoh0!bkbarret GEMAIL: B.K.BARRETT Brett must have missed the 100's of messages previously in this group about failed, no-good, worthless 225's. Seagate 225's are the only hard drive that had a 40% DOA rate at the store I worked in, and many of those that I told people to buy are now dead. He must have also missed the comments in most of the latest Micro Cornucopias, from various people telling stories of grief and lament, based on Seagate's 225. Many Seagate 225's have bad stepper motor controllers, which make it difficult to read track 0 after a while. This makes a disk sort of hard to call reliable, huh?? Dave "mr question" McIntyre | "....say you're thinking about a plate mcintyre@turing.cs.rpi.edu | of shrimp.....and someone says to office : 518-276-8633 | you `plate,' or `shrimp'......" home : 518-271-6664 |
palowoda@megatest.UUCP (Bob Palowoda) (02/07/89)
From article <6135@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, by jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall): > In article <92.23EB72B5@muadib.FIDONET.ORG> Ed.Maurer@f7.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Ed Maurer) writes: >>... I personally wouldnt >>put them [Maxtors] in the same league with Core or Priam, but a step ahead of >>the Seagate/Miniscribe crowd. > > Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of > the best. Have I been misinformed? > Can we save this kind of stuff for rec.humor. -- Bob Palowoda Work: {sun,decwrl,pyramid}!megatest!palowoda Home: {sun,pryamid}aeras!grinch!legends!fiver!palowoda BBS: (415)796-3686 2400/1200 Voice:(415)745-7749
ltf@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Lance Franklin) (02/07/89)
In article <517@rpi.edu> mcintyre@turing.cs.rpi.edu (David McIntyre) writes: >In article <677@sactoh0.UUCP> bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) writes: >>In article <6135@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: >>> Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of >>> the best. Have I been misinformed? >> No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you >>get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been >>misinformed. >Brett must have missed the 100's of messages previously in this group >about failed, no-good, worthless 225's. Seagate 225's are the only >hard drive that had a 40% DOA rate at the store I worked in, and many >of those that I told people to buy are now dead. Not to mention the ST251's that last about a year, then start refusing to spin up... My friend had 3 ST251's on his BBS...they were all about a year old, and they all started to have the same problem...on power up, they would refuse to spin up, doing so only after he tapped them a few times, or gave the thing a little twist with his finger. In my office, another ST251, about a year old, has started failing in the same way. So, what is the MTBF for an ST251, anyway? :-) Lance -- +-------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------+ | Lance T Franklin | | I never said that! It must be some kind of a | | ltf@killer.DALLAS.TX.US | | forgery...I gotta change that password again. | +-------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------+
ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried iii) (02/07/89)
In article <677@sactoh0.UUCP> bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) writes: > > No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you >get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been >misinformed. > >-- > "Somebody help me! I'm trapped in this computer!" > > Brent Barrett ..pacbell!sactoh0!bkbarret GEMAIL: B.K.BARRETT No...you are misinformed. For those of us who have actually had the misfortune to use Seagate drives...as opposed to just read an article in a magazine...the abysmal quality of Seagates is legendary. There has been no end of bandwidth on USENET devoted to peoples horror stories after being fooled by the low prices into buying a Seagate. If you're interested in my personal set of horror stories, send me e-mail. Word of advice: never take the word of a magazine...especially one as devoted to advertising revenue as PC World...as gospel. You WILL get burned (particularly if they are pushing Seagates). ...ken seefried iii ken@gatech.edu
dfisk@hawk.ulowell.edu (David Fisk) (02/07/89)
In article <7066@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> ltf@killer.Dallas.TX.US (Lance Franklin) writes: >spin up, doing so only after he tapped them a few times, or gave the >thing a little twist with his finger. In my office, another ST251, about a >year old, has started failing in the same way. > >So, what is the MTBF for an ST251, anyway? :-) > >Lance Well according to the Seagate prouct comparison sheet I have in front of me they rate the 251(and 225) with a MTBF of 35,000 and a service life (all of the 5 1/4's listed) of 5 years. Also of note is that they rate all of their 5 1/4' HH SCSI drives at 30,000 hours except for the 225N which is 35,000. I hope my 277N lasts ok. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | dfisk@hawk.ulowell.edu (David Fisk) | | | University of Lowell | still looking for a good quote...| | Computer Science Dept. Student | |
pjh@mccc.UUCP (Pete Holsberg) (02/08/89)
In article <677@sactoh0.UUCP> bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) writes: =In article <6135@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: => In article <92.23EB72B5@muadib.FIDONET.ORG> Ed.Maurer@f7.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Ed Maurer) writes: => >... I personally wouldnt => >put them [Maxtors] in the same league with Core or Priam, but a step ahead of => >the Seagate/Miniscribe crowd. => => Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of => the best. Have I been misinformed? = = No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you =get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been =misinformed. There is a fellow who works as the PC hardware wizard for a large US government laboratory, and who shares his findings with the part of the world that checks into CompuServe. He says that Seagates are about as bad as you can get. Micropolis, CDC -- those are the good ones. -- Pete Holsberg UUCP: {...!rutgers!}princeton!mccc!pjh Mercer College CompuServe: 70240,334 1200 Old Trenton Road GEnie: PJHOLSBERG Trenton, NJ 08690 Voice: 1-609-586-4800
bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) (02/08/89)
In article <517@rpi.edu>, mcintyre@rpics (David McIntyre) writes: > In article <677@sactoh0.UUCP> bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) writes: > >In article <6135@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: > >> In article <92.23EB72B5@muadib.FIDONET.ORG> Ed.Maurer@f7.n369.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Ed Maurer) writes: {stuff eliminated} > Brett must have missed the 100's of messages previously in this group > about failed, no-good, worthless 225's. Seagate 225's are the only > hard drive that had a 40% DOA rate at the store I worked in, and many > of those that I told people to buy are now dead. > > He must have also missed the comments in most of the latest Micro > Cornucopias, from various people telling stories of grief and lament, > based on Seagate's 225. > > Many Seagate 225's have bad stepper motor controllers, which make it > difficult to read track 0 after a while. This makes a disk sort > of hard to call reliable, huh?? If the ST225 is all you can complain about, 1 drive of many, you talking about a good company. My ST277R has lastest longest with fewer problem than *ALL* the HD I've owned before.. miniscribes, tandons, et al. 225 was a bad drive, I'll give you that, but don't condemn the entire line because of one lemon. And, please, the name is "Brent." -- "Somebody help me! I'm trapped in this computer!" Brent Barrett ..pacbell!sactoh0!bkbarret GEMAIL: B.K.BARRETT
furlani@broadway.UUCP (John L. Furlani) (02/08/89)
>>> Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of >>> the best. Have I been misinformed? > >> No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you >>get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been >>misinformed. > >Brett must have missed the 100's of messages previously in this group >about failed, no-good, worthless 225's. Let me start off by saying that I don't have an ST225. I do have an ST238 with an RLL controler, 30Mbytes, etc. I have been using it almost everyday for over 3 years now and have yet to have any problem with it. I think the misinformation may be between the drive and the company. ____________ John L. Furlani The University of South Carolina, Columbia SC (...!uunet!ncrlnk!ncrcae!broadway!furlani)
jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) (02/09/89)
There's been a lot of "Seagate-Bashing" lately but the complaints are mostly anecdotal - not statistical. Does anyone have a REAL feel for the relative reliability of these things? I suspect it's possible to find a large number of dissatisfied Seagate users out there because of the ENORMOUS numbers of those drives on PCs. The price of Seagates seems to be about $10/Mbyte - about the same as the "better" brands. The rea- son I'm curious is that I've used several Seagates in the past with lit- tle or no problem but continue to hear horror stories - maybe only the negatives reach the net. Jim Borza - Sun Microsystems Disclaimer? Sure, why not?
silver@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Andy Silverman) (02/09/89)
In article <88899@sun.uucp> jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) writes: >There's been a lot of "Seagate-Bashing" lately but the complaints >are mostly anecdotal - not statistical. Does anyone have a REAL feel for >the relative reliability of these things? I suspect it's possible to >find a large number of dissatisfied Seagate users out there because of >the ENORMOUS numbers of those drives on PCs. The price of Seagates seems >to be about $10/Mbyte - about the same as the "better" brands. The rea- >son I'm curious is that I've used several Seagates in the past with lit- >tle or no problem but continue to hear horror stories - maybe only the >negatives reach the net. I'm inclined to agree with you- people are always much more vocal when they're dissatisfied with a product. I've had my Seagate ST238 RLL drive for about 2 years. It came with ZERO hard defects, and no soft errors have ever shown up even after 2 years of relatively heavy use. I have no complaints about it at all. Incidentally, the ST238 is based on 225 technology. I wonder if the changes for RLL control made it any more reliable? Andy Silverman Internet: silver@eniac.seas.upenn.edu CompuServe: 72261,531
sac90286@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (02/09/89)
/* Written 6:46 pm Feb 6, 1989 by mcintyre@rpics in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.ibm.pc */
In article <677@sactoh0.UUCP> bkbarret@sactoh0.UUCP (Brent K. Barrett) writes:
Brett must have missed the 100's of messages previously in this group
about failed, no-good, worthless 225's. Seagate 225's are the only
hard drive that had a 40% DOA rate at the store I worked in, and many
of those that I told people to buy are now dead.
Many Seagate 225's have bad stepper motor controllers, which make it
difficult to read track 0 after a while. This makes a disk sort
of hard to call reliable, huh??
/* End of text from uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.ibm.pc */
If you really hate them that much, just ship 'em to me (I'll pay the
freight). Not only have I been running an ST225, but I have been running
it from an RLL controller!
Besides, even if track 0 goes bad/can't be reached, a little creative
partitioning will take care of that problem toot sweet...samc@hpccc.HP.COM (Samuel Chau) (02/09/89)
>>> Wait a minute! I thought Seagate drives were supposed to be some of >>> the best. Have I been misinformed? >> >> No, you haven't. In the PC world, Seagate is about as good as you >>get. Apparently Ed Maurer up there is the one who's been >>misinformed. >>-- >> Brent Barrett ..pacbell!sactoh0!bkbarret GEMAIL: B.K.BARRETT > >Brett must have missed the 100's of messages previously in this group >about failed, no-good, worthless 225's. Seagate 225's are the only >hard drive that had a 40% DOA rate at the store I worked in, and many >of those that I told people to buy are now dead. >He must have also missed the comments in most of the latest Micro >Cornucopias, from various people telling stories of grief and lament, >based on Seagate's 225. >Many Seagate 225's have bad stepper motor controllers, which make it >difficult to read track 0 after a while. This makes a disk sort >of hard to call reliable, huh?? >Dave "mr question" McIntyre | "....say you're thinking about a plate How true! Seagate's reliability seems to show a roller-coaster effect. ST-225's are known to suffer from "track drift", where the alignment of the heads slowly drift away from the original track positions, making even freshly written sectors tough to read. This problem is apparently shared by virtually all drives that use stepper motors. Voice coil drives don't have this problem since the pre-recorded servo information allows the heads to line up precisely over a track. Even temperature sensitivity is reduced because the platters expand and contract together to minimize mis-alignment. A book on PC repairs and upgrades (quite new, the author wrote about DOS 4.0 and the 80386SX) that I bought recently made some serious suggestions against the use of stepper-motor drives. These units are almost always less than ~50 Mbytes. I would say if they must be used, then run something like Gibson Research's SpinRite every now and then to zero out the accumulated track mis-alignment. The horror stories I have heard from my friends alone regarding the ST-225 had me thoroughly convinced. On the other hand, Seagate's ST-4096 does appear to use better technology. I had the opportunity to open up one such drive which died as a result of having been dropped from a distance of several feet (I don't think any drive would have survived that treatment). The ST-4096 uses a linear voice coil and sputtered thin-film media. And at ~$530 a piece, it seems like a pretty good deal. I know of one person who has successfully squeezed almost 150 MB off of this drive by using it with the Perstor PS180 controller. This Seagate does appear to be one of reasonably good quality. Watch out for some of the older full-height Seagates, though. I've seen several ST-4051 units that refused to spin up when power is applied, unless they are given some quick jerks to move the platters off their "dead-spot". And who knows what kind of damage the surfaces might sustain with this kind of "abuse"! In case you haven't noticed, I'm into pushing MFM drives into higher capacities with Perstor and RLL controllers. Does anyone care to share similar experiences? Sorry for the long message, guys. I got a bit carried away. Sam Chau HP Cupertino samc@hpda (408) 447-0238 #include <std_disclaimer.h>
cml@rti.UUCP (Carl Lewis) (02/09/89)
Ouch. With all this bad experience with Seagate ST225 units, I'm wondering if my recent purchase of a ST238R was such a good idea. Any good advice on precautions, self protection, archiving to floppys, etc? My experience with PCs and DOS is quite limited so please don't hesitate to mention the "obvious" or to mention any good books on the subject of system self-administration. Carl Lewis mcnc!rti!cml
carl@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Carl Thomsen) (02/10/89)
/ hpcvlx:comp.sys.ibm.pc / samc@hpccc.HP.COM (Samuel Chau) / 3:50 pm Feb 8, 1989 / >Watch out for some of the older full-height Seagates, though. I've seen >several ST-4051 units that refused to spin up when power is applied, unless >they are given some quick jerks to move the platters off their "dead-spot". >And who knows what kind of damage the surfaces might sustain with this kind >of "abuse"! I've seen this same problem with nearly every ST-4051 we have in this area. Leaving the drive on for long periods of time (i.e. overnight) seemed to increase the likelihood that the drive would freeze at the next power cycle. Perhaps a better but move involved "un-freeze" method is to remove the bottom controller board of the drive. With the controller board off, the bottom of the motor spindle can be manually rotated to un-freeze the drive. This patch has always worked for me although a couple of times it had to be applied twice. Carl Thomsen carl@hp-pcd.HP.COM
jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) (02/10/89)
In article <2776@rti.UUCP>, cml@rti.UUCP (Carl Lewis) writes: > Ouch. With all this bad experience with Seagate ST225 units, I'm > wondering if my recent purchase of a ST238R was such a good idea. > Any good advice on precautions, self protection, archiving to floppys, > etc? [....] > Carl Lewis mcnc!rti!cml Just the most basic precautions, Carl: I think some installations suffer from temperature problems, so make sure the drive (and controller) are adequately cooled - it'll extend the life of both electronic and mechan- ical components. Always park the heads before you power down (I know you don't plan on moving the machine, but Murphy being Murphy, you'll have to move it soon) head park programs are simple for the ST238 - some have been posted here. No matter how often you think you need to backup data, back up twice as often. There's no reason the drive shouldn't last a long time, given reasonable care. Jim Borza - Sun Microsystems Disclaimer? Sure, why not?
uncosb@sw1e.UUCP (6300]) (02/10/89)
In article <2776@rti.UUCP> cml@rti.UUCP (Carl Lewis) writes: > >Ouch. With all this bad experience with Seagate ST225 units, I'm >wondering if my recent purchase of a ST238R was such a good idea. > >Any good advice on precautions, self protection, archiving to floppys, >etc? > I owned a ST238R with Western Digital Controler (WD1002-27X) for about two years. I had no trouble with it. It seemed to be very slow. I purchased SPINRITE software and ended up changing the interleave factor. It seems to be a good drive for the money. Steve Brown Little Rock, AR
boyne@hplvli.HP.COM (Art Boyne) (02/11/89)
samc@hpccc.HP.COM (Samuel Chau) writes: >Watch out for some of the older full-height Seagates, though. I've seen >several ST-4051 units that refused to spin up when power is applied, unless >they are given some quick jerks to move the platters off their "dead-spot". >And who knows what kind of damage the surfaces might sustain with this kind >of "abuse"! carl@hp-pcd.HP.COM (Carl Thomsen) adds: >I've seen this same problem with nearly every ST-4051 we have in this area. Having talked with the disk gurus at HP Greeley Division who know all about this "stickion" problem (as they call it) with the ST-4051, here's the scoop: for several months in early 1985 (when HP was using this drive in its products) Seagate had a production problem which affected all units. The spindle motor would out-gas a sticky substance onto the inner tracks of the platters. Since power-off parks the heads on the innermost track, the heads come in contact with this goo. Eventually, the heads stick to the media, and the drive doesn't spin up. The trick of jerking the drive or manually turning the spindle motor will usually free the heads, but there is a danger of ripping the heads off the actuator. Our maintenance group here in Loveland summarily replaced all 4051 drives they could find with newer units. Later in 1985, the production problem was fixed. BTW: I'm using one of the (eventually-to-go-bad) ST-4051's in my home system right now: got it REAL cheap at a scrap auction. But I keep backups! Art Boyne, boyne@hplvla.HP.COM
cml@rti.UUCP (Carl Lewis) (02/11/89)
In article <7785@netnews.upenn.edu> silver@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Andy Silverman) writes: >I'm inclined to agree with you- people are always much more vocal when they're >dissatisfied with a product. I've had my Seagate ST238 RLL drive for about >2 years. It came with ZERO hard defects, and no soft errors have ever shown >up even after 2 years of relatively heavy use. I have no complaints about it >at all. Incidentally, the ST238 is based on 225 technology. I wonder if the >changes for RLL control made it any more reliable? Andy, The current PC World has a couple of pages on hard drives, the special surface on the ST238R, and some interesting tricks to keep your drive under control. They also explain some common sources of disk failures. The ST238R that I installed last week also came with zero hard defects and so far is purring and clicking happily away. I plan on some sensible backing up and on following the defensive maintenance procedures outlined in the article. Of course, I'm the kind of guy that changes his car oil himself every 3,000 miles, so I may be a bit more fussy than some folks :-). Carl Lewis
dr@skivs.UUCP (David Robins) (02/14/89)
In article <89186@sun.uucp> jborza%burgundy@Sun.COM (Jim_Borza) writes: >ical components. Always park the heads before you power down (I know you >don't plan on moving the machine, but Murphy being Murphy, you'll have >to move it soon) head park programs are simple for the ST238 - some have Just a note on parking. Seagate's manual says "All Seagate drives, with the exception of the ST213, ST225, ST225N, and ST238R products, have an automatic read/write head parking function at power-off." -- David Robins, M.D. (ophthalmologist / electronics engineer) The Smith-Kettlewell Institute of Visual Science, *** net: uunet!skivs!dr 2232 Webster St, San Francisco CA 94115 *** 415/561-1705 (voice) The opinions expressed herein do not reflect the opinion of the Institute!
dd@beta.lanl.gov (Dan Davison) (02/14/89)
In article <2776@rti.UUCP> cml@rti.UUCP (Carl Lewis) writes: > >Ouch. With all this bad experience with Seagate ST225 units, I'm >wondering if my recent purchase of a ST238R was such a good idea. > >Any good advice on precautions, self protection, archiving to floppys, >etc? I've had one for three years and another for one year, and had little trouble. I reformat them about once a year and defragment the drive by hand about every six months. One developed some bad spots at the end of the disk but low-level format to mark them bad worked fine. For my controller (Adaptek 2070A, yes, that one), the optimal interleave was 3:1 and it really speeded things up. dan davison/theoretical biology/t-10 ms k710/los alamos national laboratory los alamos, nm 875545/dd@lanl.gov (arpa)/dd@lanl.uucp(new)/..cmcl2!lanl!dd "Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one." ...Le Guin, _The Farthest Shore_
huilin@hpindda.HP.COM (Hui Lin Lim) (02/15/89)
I'm using a brand new ST251-1 (about a month old) and seem to
have experience the problem of it not spinning up properly when I
turned it on. I had to turn off the system then on again before
it would do anything.
Anyone got any suggestions? Should I return it (I can't
reproduce the problem)?
Hui-Lin Lim
ARPA: huilin%hpda@hplabs.hp.com
UUCP: {ucbvax,hplabs}!hpda!huilin
Phone: (408)447-2835root@tscs.UUCP (Admin) (02/17/89)
In article <2780@rti.UUCP> cml@rti.UUCP (Carl Lewis) writes: > >The ST238R that I installed last week also came with zero hard defects >and so far is purring and clicking happily away. That's a strange thing about Seagate drives, they never have many defects recorded when the come from the factory. This really makes me curious about how well they test them. Just about all of the Micropolis and CDC (Imprimis) drives we have seen pass through our doors have multiple defects listed, yet Seagates always appear to have less or none at all. You can use Micropolis or CDC drives with RLL controllers with little problems, yet the Seagates usually fail to perform to our satisfaction. (Note: none of the drives mentioned are RLL rated) The Seagate 4096 is Seagate's best drive, the half height models are best avoided if financially feasable. I will offer one other opinion, Seagate half height drives are not the worst we have seen, Miniscribe gets the award on pure garbage in the half height department. I would never trust my data to a drive that makes strange tinny sounding whirring and clunking noises. > >I plan on some sensible backing up and on following the defensive >maintenance procedures outlined in the article. Regardless of the drive, a regular full back-up is always good measure. A decent tape drive helps to insure that back-ups are done in timely manner. MORAL OF THE STORY: ------------------- It is better to WAIT until you have an extra couple hundred dollars to spend for a "REAL" disk drive than to gamble with a cheapie! Replacing the drive once, or the inconvienience of loosing data far offset the extra dollars of initial investment. Disk drive prices have been dropping lately, you can buy a decent drive for much less than you could a year ago.