bash@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Basham) (02/22/89)
Recently I decided to upgrade from a Tandy 1000SX to the Real World.
I already had a 40 Mb miniscribe HD (which has performed like a
trooper!), a paradise VGA card, and a Sony mulit-frequency monitor, so
I really only needed a base system. I initially looked at 286
machines most of which cost around $1500 for a base system. By
chance I ran across an add for Computer Products United in PC
magazine. CPU advertised a 386SX 16MHZ with 1Mb memory, 1.2Mb
floppy, dual floppy/HD controller, 1 parallel, 2 serial, and 1 game
port for $1700. They had some 386 machines at 20 and 25MHZ for
more money.
After some thought I called and ordered the 386SX. It fit my
budget and put me a little closer to the front line of technology.
I was told the machine would ship in one week. One week later
I called to verify shipment. I was told that it would be delayed
a few more days. I called a few days later and was told they
didn't have any 386SX chips (they assemble their own motherboard) and
my machine was on hold.
Then, the salesman said: "How about I give you a regular 386 at 16
MHZ, same config, same price?"
Me: "You mean a 286?"
Salesman: "No, a 386."
Me: "Same config, <list of equipment stated here>?"
Salseman" "Yes."
Me: "Same price?"
Salesman: "Yes."
Me "Let me think for about .1 microseconds...<.1 microsecond delay>I'll
take it!"
Well, the machine arrived later that week and it has been great.
I've ran as many tests and diagnostics on it as I can and have no
complaints. It may not be quite as fast as those 20 and 25MHZ
machines, but hey, I can deal with it.
The moral of the story is: I had good luck with Computer Products
United and they have my recommendation.
Tom Basham
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"The world was going down the tubes. They needed a scapegoat. They
found Wayne."thaler@shorty.CS.WISC.EDU (Maurice Thaler) (02/24/89)
I had a terrible experience with CPU (computer products unlimited). I
ordered a ST251-1 for my AUDIO PROJECTS BBS and told them to put it on
my charge card. It arrived the next week COD w/ a charge card slip, in
other words double billing it. I refused the shipment of course, and
called up immediately to talk to these people. Since I considered this
a royal mess up, I offered to let him ship it again, blue label, at his
expense or cancel the order. I work at a mail order place, and know that
blue label shipping would cost him about $10. He refused to take care of
free blue label, so I canceled the order and asked for FULL refund. He
said I would have full refund after he received the disk.
Next week, another disk arrived from CPU. I refused this one as well,
and called them up to explain yet one more time how they had screwed up.
Well to make a long story short, they finally refunded $343 instead of
$412 for the drive. When I called up and complained, they said I had
to pay restocking and shipping, which is nuts since they mis-shipped in
the first place. They REFUSED to make good.
I called up Master charge who had me write a letter to them documenting
this, which I did. I also sent a duplicate letter to the attorney
general in Sacremento. Three months later, the rest of the refund
showed up on the master card bill.
The point is, these guys did not handle this in a way that indicated
they were "good bussinesspeople". I dealt with a person who had not the
best english and it was quite difficult to even be sure I was getting
my point accross to him. I was not impressed at all, and would not
recommend these guys to anyone. The experience of the other person
who wrote about the good deal they got on a 386 makes me suspicious
too, why did they not want to sell what they were advertising...
I will stick to Hard Drives Intl. in Tempe for hard disks, and
Dell for computers....
Maurice Thaler SYSOP Audio Projects BBS (608) 836-9473
SYSOP Power Board BBS (608) 222-8842 bash@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Basham) (03/08/89)
Not too long ago I posted on how Computer Products United salesmen treated me in a fair and friendly manner in my quest for a 16MHz 386 box. Well, after about three weeks, the machine locked up a couple of times while playing the game "Wasteland". I attributed this to the software. A few days later the machine died. Upon power up the fan comes on, the light comes on, and that is it. No screen, no errors, not even the speaker beep. I've shipped the box back to CPU. They told me I could cound on them having it at least a week. I tried to just get a replacement, but they refused until they've diagnosed the faulty unit. As of this writing U.P.S. has not delivered the computer to CPU. The thing that bothers me about this is: the processor is a 386 16MHz chip. The motherboard is copyrighted as a 20MHz board. There is an oscillator speed jumper that sets the maximum clock speed at either 16 or 20 MHz. This jumper is missing. Possibly the clock will default to a 16MHz rate, but I doubt it. I don't have a scope at home to actually measure the clock. If they have the clock running too fast the poor 386 would try to keep up as long as possible and then give up (I've seen this trick in the world of Z80s.). Anyway, to me, missing this jumper seems to be a blarring error. I'm getting worried that this may be an indication of poor practices by their staff. Then again. maybe it was a simple mistake. To be continued... Tom Basham -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The world was going down the tubes. They needed a scapegoat. They found Wayne."
jsilva@cogsci.berkeley.edu (John Silva) (03/10/89)
In article <9804@ihlpb.ATT.COM> bash@ihlpb.ATT.COM writes: >Not too long ago I posted on how Computer Products United salesmen >treated me in a fair and friendly manner in my quest for a 16MHz >386 box. > [stuff deleted] > >The thing that bothers me about this is: the processor is a 386 16MHz >chip. The motherboard is copyrighted as a 20MHz board. There is >an oscillator speed jumper that sets the maximum clock speed at >either 16 or 20 MHz. This jumper is missing. Possibly the clock >will default to a 16MHz rate, but I doubt it. I don't have a scope >at home to actually measure the clock. If they have the clock running >too fast the poor 386 would try to keep up as long as possible and >then give up (I've seen this trick in the world of Z80s.). Anyway, to >me, missing this jumper seems to be a blarring error. I'm getting >worried that this may be an indication of poor practices by their >staff. > >Then again. maybe it was a simple mistake. > >To be continued... > >Tom Basham I've found that a considerable number of companies who advertise '20Mhz' 386 systems are shipping them with 16Mhz processors. The reason for this is that they will have a reasonably low failure rate within warranty, while keeping costs down by using a cheaper processor. A 16Mhz 386 can be successfully used at 20Mhz, *as long as they are kept cool*. The reason for this is the chip will generate a certain amount of heat in normal operation (which the specs account for), and running them at a higher clock rate will generate excessive amounts of heat. This reduces the life of the processor, and the operating temperature range. Generally, if you buy a 20Mhz 386 board with a 20Mhz processor you'll be paying a little more for increased lifetime and reliability. Running a 386 out of spec isn't worth the hassle over the long run. -J. --- John P. Silva INTERNET : jsilva@cogsci.berkeley.edu "You don't know what you're UUCP : {backbone}!ucbvax!cogsci!jsilva getting into, friend..."
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (03/11/89)
In article <10866@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jsilva@cogsci.berkeley.edu.UUCP (John Silva) writes: | A 16Mhz 386 can be successfully used at 20Mhz, *as long as they are kept cool*. | The reason for this is the chip will generate a certain amount of heat in | normal operation (which the specs account for), and running them at a higher | clock rate will generate excessive amounts of heat. This reduces the life | of the processor, and the operating temperature range. | | Generally, if you buy a 20Mhz 386 board with a 20Mhz processor you'll be paying | a little more for increased lifetime and reliability. Running a 386 out of | spec isn't worth the hassle over the long run. You may have a good conclusion, but I think you got there using incorrect information... Everything I have read or seen indicates that Intel does not have assembly lines producing 386s in 20, and 16 MHz, but that there is one chip foundry which produces 386s using the same parts and masks. Chips labeled as 20 MHz are tested at that speed and are guaranteed for it. Chips labeled for lower speeds may be either (a) chips not tested at the higher speed, or (b) chips which failed the higher speed and passed the labeled speed. Intel says that they test under conditions which can not be duplicated casually, using extremes of rated voltage and temperature. Just trying it at home doesn't duplicate this. Therefore I agree that going with a tested chip for peace of mind is a good idea. The chip does not change by putting a label on top which says 16 MHz. There is no reason to suspect that a chip rated at any speed will run hotter than a chip rated a any other speed. I therefore disagree that running a slow chip at a high speed will "reduce the life of the processor" more than running a fast chip. They should run at the same temperature and have the same mean time to failure. This doesn't mean that the chip won't run hotter at higher speeds, not does it imply that some chips may not run the higher speeds if they get hot. Again you have the right idea, the chips may not be reliable if run fast, but not because they run hotter than "fast" chips, just that they won't run at the higher temperature. Depending on who you talk to, there is a 50-80% chance that any chip which works at all will work at 20 MHz. If I had a system which I could increase to 20MHz, I'd try it for any non-critical application. I think we've gotten to the same point from different directions. NOTE: I don't have information on the 25 MHz parts for sure, but since they are they same 'D' stepping using the same design rules you may conclude that it's worth trying. Keeping *any* CPU cool is a good idea, regardless of it's rating for speed or temperature. Remember "a cool electron is a happy electron." -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me