msb@hal.UUCP (Monty S. Baveja) (06/01/89)
GET READY TO FLAME AWAY!! In our department every one uses WordPerfect5.0 and everytime they have to do anything complicated they go scrambling for manuals/help books/me. What good are all the fricking features if you need an IQ of 150 to remember is this ALT-f1 or CTRL-F10 or SHIT-Fsomething else. I have been using WordStar5.0 for the last 6 months or so and got my brand new copy of WordStar 5.5 today in the mail. WordStar 5.0 is so easy to use, you can have pulldown menus, or the old menus, or no menus. It's Advanced Page Preview is infinetly better than WordPerfect's. In WordPerfect you need to hit like 5 keys to start sub- scripting than the 5 again after you type 1 letter. It's a TPA. WordStar could use more advanced macro capability but, besides that it is easy to use, it's powerful, and it's flexible. My 2 cents worth. Monty (msb@hal.cwru.edu)
dmimi@ecsvax.UUCP (Miriam Clifford) (06/02/89)
Gosh, why remember stuff you rarely use. At least, with WordPerfect it's there when you do need it! As far as having to hit many keys to do something, why not make a macro to do it, if you use it often? Otherwise, why get into a flap?
les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) (06/03/89)
In article <353@hal.UUCP> msb@hal.UUCP (Monty S. Baveja) writes: >GET READY TO FLAME AWAY!! In our department every one uses WordPerfect5.0 >and everytime they have to do anything complicated they go scrambling for >manuals/help books/me. What good are all the fricking features if you need >an IQ of 150 to remember is this ALT-f1 or CTRL-F10 or SHIT-Fsomething else. The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to remember that F3 is the help key. Also, you can re-map to your own liking or use macros for your common operations - if it's not worth making this small effort, then it's really not worth complaining about. Les Mikesell
casey@well.UUCP (Kathleen Creighton) (06/03/89)
Maybe it's time for a WordPerfect newsgroup :-). WAIT! Just pullin' yer chain!
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (06/04/89)
>GET READY TO FLAME AWAY!! In our department every one uses WordPerfect5.0 >and everytime they have to do anything complicated they go scrambling for >manuals/help books/me. What good are all the fricking features if you need >an IQ of 150 to remember is this ALT-f1 or CTRL-F10 or SHIT-Fsomething else. I agree wholly. I have in front of me the template for the old AT-style keyboard. However, my machine is a PS/2 Model 80. Sometime between switching from WP to MicroEmacs, I lost the long thin one. It is a nuisance to translate between then cards. AND, using the damn colors is a BAD idea! You can't Xerox them (Though our photo shop can of course clone them photographically) I need WP only for the spell checker and editing very large files. I am going to use TeX, which is my normal formatter, to make a long-narrow template with ^, CAPS, A- for control, shift and alt. I will post the TeX code, HP-laser-jet , and Postscript files to print them out in comp.text. Some day. Doug McDonald
shapiro@rb-dc1.UUCP (Mike Shapiro) (06/07/89)
In article <8619@chinet.chi.il.us> les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) writes (regarding WordPerfect): >The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to >remember that F3 is the help key. ^^ This points out one of the problems with the non-intuitive product design. While not a standard, a quite common convention of PC software is the use of F1 as the help key. I'd really be interested in knowing why the designer (or design team) of WP chose to go with an arbitrarily different selection. -- Michael Shapiro, Encore Computer Corporation (formerly Gould/GSD) 15378 Avenue of Science, San Diego, CA 92128 (619)485-0910 UUCP: shapiro@rb-dc1 (This location will close, starting July 10. I will be moving on.)
marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) (06/08/89)
]]The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to ]]remember that F3 is the help key. ] ^^ ]This points out one of the problems with the non-intuitive product ]design. While not a standard, a quite common convention of PC ]software is the use of F1 as the help key. I'd really be interested ]in knowing why the designer (or design team) of WP chose to go with an ]arbitrarily different selection. The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive "N". Is there any logic behind this? I vote for WP as the most counter- intuitively designed word processor on the market (aside from Edlin perhaps). Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? Roger Marquis (marquis@qal.berkeley.edu || ucbvax!qal!marquis)
nfs@notecnirp.Princeton.EDU (Norbert Schlenker) (06/08/89)
In article <554@rb-dc1.UUCP> shapiro@rb-dc1.SanDiego.gould.UUCP (Michael Shapiro) writes: >In article <8619@chinet.chi.il.us> les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie >Mikesell) writes (regarding WordPerfect): >>The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to >>remember that F3 is the help key. > ^^ >This points out one of the problems with the non-intuitive product >design. While not a standard, a quite common convention of PC >software is the use of F1 as the help key. I'd really be interested >in knowing why the designer (or design team) of WP chose to go with an >arbitrarily different selection. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, I think they just march to the beat of a different drummer in Orem. If you make the number one product on the market, who cares whether you're compatible with the rest of the world? If you make the number one product, why shouldn't everyone else be compatible with YOU? > >-- >Michael Shapiro, Encore Computer Corporation (formerly Gould/GSD) >15378 Avenue of Science, San Diego, CA 92128 >(619)485-0910 UUCP: shapiro@rb-dc1 >(This location will close, starting July 10. I will be moving on.) Seriously though, the keyboard is arbitrarily remappable within WordPerfect. If you don't like F3 as help, change it. I believe that enough people have complained about it that there is a command line option on invocation that does the logical thing of moving help onto F1 and cancel onto ESC. I don't use it, because they've brainwashed me! Norbert
toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (06/08/89)
In article <554@rb-dc1.UUCP> shapiro@rb-dc1.SanDiego.gould.UUCP (Michael Shapiro) writes: >In article <8619@chinet.chi.il.us> les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie >Mikesell) writes (regarding WordPerfect): >>The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to >>remember that F3 is the help key. > ^^ >This points out one of the problems with the non-intuitive product >design. While not a standard, a quite common convention of PC >software is the use of F1 as the help key. I'd really be interested >in knowing why the designer (or design team) of WP chose to go with an >arbitrarily different selection. > Well, just to hazzard a guess, Word Perfect is an old product. Perhaps when it first came out there was no consensus as to where to put the help key. At any rate, the keyboard is "soft" and even WordPerfect Corp. supplies a redefined keyboard with F1 being Help (instead of cancel), Esc being cancel (instead of repeat) and F3 being repeat (instead of help). Personally, I like the old standard of ^J for help (:-). Tom Almy toma@tekgvs.labs.tek.com Standard Disclaimers Apply
casey@well.UUCP (Kathleen Creighton) (06/08/89)
>Doesn't anyone from WP read the net?
WP Corp is not on the net.trgauchat@rose.waterloo.edu (Terry Gauchat) (06/08/89)
In article <25325@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: }]]The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to }]]remember that F3 is the help key. }] ^^ Now that WordPerfect % has built in key-remapping (to any key or macro), one can make the program as intuitive as desired, with VERY LITTLE DIFFICULTY. Of course, this makes support difficult (Imagine calling WordPerf and asking "How do I save?" , "F10 -- unless you changed it to F3, etc.". WordPerfect should do some research into what an intuitive key mapping interface should be and ship it with the product or on request. The MUST also include new templates, of course. ...Terry.
mdharding@dahlia.waterloo.edu (Matthew D. Harding) (06/08/89)
In article <25325@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: >The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive >"N". Is there any logic behind this? I vote for WP as the most counter- >intuitively designed word processor on the market (aside from Edlin >perhaps). Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? Why would No be non-intuitive? The whole idea of WP querying you is in case you made a mistake, by hitting F7 instead of Shift-F7, for example. Therefore you would want the default to be no, so you don't lose hours of work by accident. WP is _not_ counterintuitive just because bold is F8 instead of ALT-B,if you have the template and have read the manual, it is really no problem. (Could it be that many people hate WP because there copies didn't come with manual and template (wink, wink) and they can't figure it out themselves?) And, BTW Edlin is _NOT_ a word processor, it is a line editor (BIG difference). Edlin was something put together at the last moment by IBM coding teams with the sole intention of the user using it, saying "This sucks to high heaven!", and running out and buying a real editor/word processor, i.e. one of the more expensive ones IBM makes. Gotta love these marketing teams... Cheers, Matt.
sac90286@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (06/09/89)
If WordPerfect is not to your liking, perhaps you'd be happier with another brand of word processor? Flaming about it certainly won't stop the secretaries from asking you questions.
marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) (06/09/89)
>>The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive >>"N". Is there any logic behind this? I vote for WP as the most counter- >>intuitively designed word processor on the market (aside from Edlin >>perhaps). Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? ]Why would No be non-intuitive? The whole idea of WP querying you is in case ]you made a mistake, by hitting F7 instead of Shift-F7, for example. Therefore ]you would want the default to be no, so you don't lose hours of work by ]accident. WP is _not_ counterintuitive just because bold is F8 instead of ]ALT-B,if you have the template and have read the manual, it is really no ]problem. ]Cheers, Matt. Why assume a WP user is making a mistake when they hit F7? Especially after they have just answered the preceding prompt asking whether they want to save the document (which defaults to 'Y' even if no changes had been made!). It's just this sort of thing that makes WP such a pain to use. But it is powerful so I use it nevertheless. The spell- checker and thesaurus are the best I've seen. With all the Turbo- and Quick- and This- and That- products coming out with WordStar emulation it would be nice if WP could be configured something like WS. Especially if more than one person needs to use the same program. Roger
nfs@notecnirp.Princeton.EDU (Norbert Schlenker) (06/09/89)
>The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive >"N". Is there any logic behind this? I vote for WP as the most counter- >intuitively designed word processor on the market (aside from Edlin >perhaps). Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? > You should realize that most WordPerfect copies are not installed for the garden variety hacker, who expects software to do what she says. WordPerfect installations are typically in a secretary's PC. The fastest way to save a document and start fresh on a new one is to type F7, have the old document saved (BY DEFAULT) and then continue on a new document (BY DEFAULT). This is not counterintuitive; it actually speeds work up. I don't use WordPerfect this way, since I usually have just one document to write at a time, but a great number of its users do. The interface is admittedly odd for a lot of people, but for most it makes perfect sense. Norbert
bobmon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (RAMontante) (06/09/89)
Comments about WP function keys --- when they originally shipped their first product, there was already a quasi-standard for the Help key in a system (F1), at least. WP certainly wasn't a standard at that point, and their use of function keys was nothing like any of the then- dominant word processors. Once I've asked to Exit, *and* told WP to go ahead and save my work, *then* the "No" default to the repetitious "Exit WP?" question is very non-intuitive. I've already had two chances to realize that I've made a mistake, I just want the annoying thing to shut up and let me get on with my life. I don't like needing the template because it slows me down to have to pull my eyes off the screen (or original material, or wherever) and go squinting through a little table for the function I want. The whole point to "intuitive" function-key bindings is to keep me at my 70 wpm touch-typing speed, not drag me down to hunt-and-peck speeds. On the other hand, I know some people who are very dependent on WP, who are such innocents that they still aren't quite sure what "DOS prompt" is all about. They have no opinions about standardized function keys, and the only way they ever exit WP is with the Big Red Switch, usually in a state of panic. (Downright scary).
burleigh@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (Frank Burleigh) (06/10/89)
i really cannot abide all this wordperfect interface bashing. :-) in general, if you are typing at 70wpm, nothing need slow you down. having to do format work is a small part of your totel time at the keyboard. you need the tab (or indent) key, the return key, and the key to save the file (f7). wp asking 'exit doc x?' gives me a chance to (f1 = keep editing), (don't exit = give me a blank screen), (yes = exit doc/wp). as for 'standard' usage of f-keys, the only standard that seems to exist is f1 = help. there is no 'standard' f-key for save, or quit, or for blocking, etc. and with as many features as wp or ms word have, you can hardly expect the f-keys to do anything but be the apex of a pyramid for hopefully integrated functions, e.g. alt-f9 = graphics, s-f8 = format. there are certainly instances in which they might have made a more logical choice. for ex., they might have put thesaurus and spell on the same key instead of on adjacent keys. in general, my feeling is that wpc's arrangement makes as much sense as any other arrangement would. as for the function templete, i would throw it away. the two better means to get help are (IMHO): 2 x f3 for the template, or f3 + the first letter of the thing i want to do. perhaps people want pull-down menus. they are apparently coming. but really, i don't see the difference. each shows you your choices and you can use a letter (or number) to select one. pull down menus may have an advantage in that they allow the programmer to explicitly show you that there are levels beneath this one. that would be most helpful for the novice user. perhaps with planperfect 5.0 we will see the future of the wp interface, as pp uses lotus /, wp=style, or pull-down menus. Frank Burleigh burleigh@silver.bacs.indiana.edu USENET: ...rutgers!iuvax!silver!burleigh BITNET: BURLEIGH@IUBACS.BITNET Department of Sociology, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 47405
chao@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Chia-Chi Chao) (06/10/89)
In article <25373@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: >Why assume a WP user is making a mistake when they hit F7? Especially >after they have just answered the preceding prompt asking whether they >want to save the document (which defaults to 'Y' even if no changes >had been made!). Answering NO to the "Exit WP?" prompt means clearing the document in memory.
gary@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Gary Barrett) (06/10/89)
In article <25325@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: > ]]The key mapping is certainly non-intuitive, but you really only have to > "N". Is there any logic behind this? I vote for WP as the most counter- > intuitively designed word processor on the market (aside from Edlin > perhaps). Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? > I am very glad to see that I'm not the only one who scratches his/her head over WP's human interface. I just cannot fathom what has made WP designers choose some of the key sequences they have.
les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) (06/12/89)
In article <554@rb-dc1.UUCP> shapiro@rb-dc1.SanDiego.gould.UUCP (Michael Shapiro) writes: >This points out one of the problems with the non-intuitive product >design. While not a standard, a quite common convention of PC >software is the use of F1 as the help key. I'd really be interested >in knowing why the designer (or design team) of WP chose to go with an >arbitrarily different selection. Perhaps they were afraid of being hit with a "look-and-feel" lawsuit by you-know-who. Allowing user key mappings avoids the issue nicely. Les Mikesell
tim@attdso.att.com (Tim J Ihde) (06/12/89)
[Some of the attributions have been deleted here, so I'm not positive who said what, but anyway:] In article <25373@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: >>>The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive >>>"N". Is there any logic behind this? > >]Why would No be non-intuitive? The whole idea of WP querying you is in case >]you made a mistake, by hitting F7 instead of Shift-F7, for example. > > Why assume a WP user is making a mistake when they hit F7? Especially >after they have just answered the preceding prompt asking whether they >want to save the document (which defaults to 'Y' even if no changes >had been made!). There is a better reason. You might only see it if you work on multiple documents at one sitting however. If you've been working on one WP document, and want to go to another, you can't just load up the new one. If you do, the new document will be inserted into the old one. You need to use the exit feature and respond N to "Exit WP?" to clear out the old document before loading the new one. If on average you work on at least two documents per session, then you are using the default more often than not. -- Tim J Ihde INTERNET: tim@attdso.att.com (201) 898-6687 UUCP: att!attdso!tim "First, you shall remove all the bugs. Then, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest, with . . . a herring!" -- the Supervisor who says "Ni!"
les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) (06/12/89)
In article <25325@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: >The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive >"N". Is there any logic behind this? About 90% of the people in our office use their PC's almost exclusively for word processing and rarely exit from WP. Thus the default "N" is the most likely choice for them. I don't like it either, but it does reflect some thought about the target market. Now to mention some things that really bother me about WP: (a) Tabs and left/center allignments are different things - it decides which to insert when you press the tab key depending on the setting that is coming up next. You can't just change the tab setup to go from left alligned tabs to centered, decimal or right alligned. (b) If you delete an allignment field from a tab setting, WP will delete all the allignment codes from the text below, scrunching all the text together. (c) Like most embedded code formatters it doesn't know anything about the "parts" of a document. With MS WORD, there are certain types of formatting that apply to particular parts of the text, and if you set one, it automatically knows enough to delete any other instances that might conflict. Thus you can apply a style to a paragraph or group of paragraphs and any paragraph styles that were previously set are deleted. WP makes you search the document to delete any codes that had been previously inserted. This does give you more control, but is generally a pain. (d) With WORD it is trivial to import a table from a lotus worksheet and print it in neat columns separated by vertical lines and surrounded by a box (if you happen to like the way WORD thinks it should look). With WP it is much more difficult because you have to do everything yourself (create .PRN file, read it, convert spaces to tabs, draw and position the box and lines with the graphics commands), but again you do have more control. Les Mikesell
jeffmu@microsoft.UUCP (Jeff Muzzy) (06/14/89)
In article <12069@well.UUCP> casey@well.UUCP (Kathleen Creighton) writes: > >>Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? > >WP Corp is not on the net. However, Microsoft (unofficial, meaning Product Support doesn't support questions) is on the net. Jeff
harvey@dtrc.arpa (Harvey) (06/14/89)
In article <14362@watdragon.waterloo.edu> mdharding@dahlia.waterloo.edu (Matthew D. Harding) writes: > >Why would No be non-intuitive? The whole idea of WP querying you is in case >you made a mistake, by hitting F7 instead of Shift-F7, for example. Therefore >you would want the default to be no, so you don't lose hours of work by >accident. WP is _not_ counterintuitive just because bold is F8 instead of ALT-B,if you have the template and have read the manual, it is really no problem. > I know that I will probably be flogged with a wet noodle, but I HATE Word Perfect. I find the commands completely nonintuitive and it takes more time to find a function on the keypad than it does prepare the document. Sure it is a "Robust" word processor, but who says that a word processor can't be robust and easy for the user to learn. I can't count the number of calls I have gotten from WP users whose documents look great on the screen but puts extra spaces in the file. The imbedded control characters within the file STINK -- (Go ahead flame away). I realize that word processors are like religion and you shouldn't discuss religion or word processors with sensible people, but I have used dozens of word processors and the all have their weaknesses and strengths, but in my opinion WP nonintuitive user interface is a major weakness and I would not recommend it to a new computer user. >(Could it be that many people hate WP because there copies didn't come with >manual and template (wink, wink) and they can't figure it out themselves?) > >Cheers, Matt. Come on Matt, most people are basically honest and the vast majority of software are legal. The copy I use is totally legal, I have the template and I don't like it any better. I am a very cluttered worker and if the template gets lost I am in trouble. If I really have a necessity to use WP I use another word processor and convert it to WP. Betty Harvey Microcomputer Support Group David Taylor Research Center Bethesda, Md.
jwi@lzfme.att.com (Jim Winer @ AT&T, Middletown, NJ) (06/15/89)
Betty Harvey writes: > in my opinion WP nonintuitive user interface is a major weakness and I > would not recommend it to a new computer user. I wouldn't recommend it for a new user either since it's not intended for the occasional user. The major benefit is to someone who uses it several hours a day -- and the benefits are substantial. For the occasional user, something simpler (and hence less featured) is far more appropriate if not much less expensive. Q&A, which includes both simple db and simple wp, is $119 while WP is $239 on the street. Q&A is far more appropriate for a new or occasional user. (I have both. I use WP and provide consulting services to occasional users for Q&A. No connection, etc.) Jim Winer ..!lzfme!jwi I believe in absolute freedom of the press. Pax Probiscus! Sturgeon's Law (Revised): 98.89% of everything is drek (1.11% is peanut butter). Rarely able to send an email reply sucessfully. The opinions expressed here are not necessarily Those persons who advocate censorship offend my religion.
bobmon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (RAMontante) (06/15/89)
jeffmu@microsoft.UUCP (Jeff Muzzy) <6024@microsoft.UUCP> : -> ->WP Corp is not on the net. - -However, Microsoft (unofficial, meaning Product Support doesn't support -questions) is on the net. Great --- WP Corp isn't on the net, and Microsoft won't support our WordPerfect questions. I guess there's no choice but to flame each other about the Exit key! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
dmimi@ecsvax.UUCP (Miriam Clifford) (06/15/89)
I still have trouble with the notion that a novice user should get an 'easy' word processor. Two aspects bother me: 1. The assumption seems to be that one must learn ALL the features of a word processor right away to use it at all, and 2. The possibility that advanced features will be found to be useful later, after the person is no longer a novice, is ignored. Neither is true, of course. One can learn the aspects of a word processor that are needed a little at a time. I'm a WordPerfect user (and enthusiast), but there are still (after 3 or 4 years) features that I never have used and don't plan to learn about because I don't seem to need them. On the other hand, I do keep finding new things that it'll do for me by wondering, with every new job, how can this be done better. I often find a way, too. At that point, I've learned a new skill. My experience with WordPerfect, using it and helping novices use it, is that it is not hard to learn the basic skills needed with it. There are many who use it as an advanced typwriter, because they don't push themselves to learn how it can function beyond that point, and there are those who progress to be very competent computer users. The point is, any reasonable word processor can serve the first group, but only a good one can serve the second. It's not always clear who is in which group.
kleonard@gvlv2.GVL.Unisys.COM (Ken Leonard) (06/15/89)
In article <a whole bunch> lotsafolk (everybody and his brother) writes:
* lots of niggling about lots of annoying characteristics
[set flame:= ON]
Which boils down to what I've felt since I first (and second and third and...)
tried to use WP: If the program can't keep out of the way of what I, the
_user_, want to _get_done_, then the best thing I can do is keep the program
out of my system. "WP: the wordprocessor for those who don't know how to
do wordprocessing."
[set flame:=OFF]
[set replyto:=/dev/null]
Regardz,
Ken Leonardwew@naucse.UUCP (Bill Wilson) (06/15/89)
From article <505@dtix.ARPA>, by harvey@dtrc.arpa (Harvey): > > I can't count the number of calls I have gotten from WP users whose documents > look great on the screen but puts extra spaces in the file. The imbedded > control characters within the file STINK -- (Go ahead flame away). > What do you actually mean here? Extra spaces in the file? Or do you mean on the screen or in the printout? How would you store the document changes in the file? Do you prefer magic? If all you want is an ASCII editor than why not use Brief or even Edlin? Make some sense! -- Bill Wilson (Bitnet: ucc2wew@nauvm) Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011 {Let sleeping dragons lie......}
casey@well.UUCP (Kathleen Creighton) (06/15/89)
>WordPerfect and Q&A
I agree that Q&A is a better solution for the novice user, but a combination
of WP and Q&A is a much better solution for those who need a database and
create a lot of merge documents. Q&A exports ASCII files of your design
to disk pretty slickly and it's a simple matter to code the fields with an
extraneous character then search and replace in WP to insert merge codes.
Highly recommended.ellisond@gtephx.UUCP (Dell Ellison) (06/16/89)
In article <25325@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, marquis@qal.qal.berkeley.edu (Roger Marquis) writes: > ]... > ]design. While not a standard, a quite common convention of PC > ]software is the use of F1 as the help key. I'd really be interested > ]in knowing why the designer (or design team) of WP chose to go with an > ]arbitrarily different selection. It was Not a common convention when WordPerfect was originally written, and they can't very well change it on the current users. > The default answer to the "Exit WP?" prompt is also a non-intuitive > "N". Is there any logic behind this? I vote for WP as the most counter- > intuitively designed word processor on the market (aside from Edlin > perhaps). Doesn't anyone from WP read the net? Actually, it IS intuitive, if you believe in the 'Better safe than sorry' philosophy. Many people would rather make sure they've saved the file first, rather than lose all those hours of work. Dell Ellison ellisond@gtephx
harvey@dtrc.arpa (Harvey) (06/26/89)
In article <1494@naucse.UUCP> wew@naucse.UUCP (Bill Wilson) writes: >What do you actually mean here? Extra spaces in the file? Or do you >mean on the screen or in the printout? How would you store the document >changes in the file? Do you prefer magic? If all you want is an ASCII >editor than why not use Brief or even Edlin? Make some sense! > Actually they were tabs embedded into the files. On the screen everything lined up perfectly, but when the file went to the printer the margins were not lined up as they were on the screen. The solution was simple, delete the tab and use spaces, however, it is not a simple solution for a novice computer user who is trying to get a document printed inside a deadline. Talk about making sense, although Edlin can be considered an editor, no one in their right mind would recommend it as a program for use. Line editing turns back 15 years of advancement. Betty Harvey <harvey@dtrc.arpa> Microcomputer Support Group David Taylor Research Center
wsinwaan@eutrc3.urc.tue.nl (w.nuij) (06/26/89)
For your information: i like wordperfect, and i never use the template at all. If you use that you're bound to lose a lot of time. I don't have to look up what italics is, i just hit ctrl-f8 2 4, and it's there. Beats carefully manoeuvering thru pulldown menu's, looking which entry it is and clicking on it, i don't need all that hassle. Also WP lets me look under the hood when I want to how many times have you wondered if you typed [italic-on]Hello.[italic-off] or [italic-on]Hello[italic-off]. ?? For a period it won't make much difference, but try seeing that on a wysiwyg display ??? bye bye .
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (06/27/89)
>For your information: i like wordperfect, and i never use the template at all. >If you use that you're bound to lose a lot of time. I don't have to look up >what italics is, i just hit ctrl-f8 2 4, and it's there. Wow! You must have gone to one of those old-fashioned grade schools with lots of rote learning! I use TeX; to start italics you type {\em , where the em stands for emphasized. That is admittedly one more keystroke, but, to get back out, you just type } , which is faster. Doug McDonald
knuutila@tucos.UUCP (Timo Knuutila) (06/28/89)
Someone told about his/her feelings about the ease of using WP: >>For your information: i like wordperfect, and i never use the template at >>all. If you use that you're bound to lose a lot of time. I don't have to >>look up what italics is, i just hit ctrl-f8 2 4, and it's there. Doug McDonald (mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu) replied: >I use TeX; to start italics you type {\em , where the em stands >for emphasized. That is admittedly one more keystroke, but, to get back >out, you just type } , which is faster. Well, well. Seems quite straightforward. I use ChiWriter, and the very complicated keystroke sequence to get the italics is F3 (you can save up to 20 different fonts behind F1-F10 & Shift-F1-Shift-F10). I have used ChiWriter for about 3 years now (latest version is 3.03) and in my opinion it beats WP (and any other) 6-0. Before you start throwing the stones, please read the article from the latest Byte (# July/89, p. 92).
kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Kevin Crocker) (06/30/89)
In article <45900246@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu>, mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > > >For your information: i like wordperfect, and i never use the template at all. > >If you use that you're bound to lose a lot of time. I don't have to look up > >what italics is, i just hit ctrl-f8 2 4, and it's there. > > > Wow! You must have gone to one of those old-fashioned grade schools > with lots of rote learning! > > I use TeX; to start italics you type {\em , where the em stands > for emphasized. That is admittedly one more keystroke, but, to get back > out, you just type } , which is faster. > > Doug McDonald nifty, I use Lotus Manuscript: to start italics your type ctrl-i, reasonably intuitive, and to get back out you type ctrl-i again. This is even shorter and faster. Of course there is a long way to do it through menus etc, but I can't seem to remember how to do that right now. I must say that a lot of people seem to be using TeX. Just what is so great about it except that it is portable over a number of OS's. It looked like a modern troff to me but then what do I know. I use Manuscript because I usually, no make that never, do any fancy typeset type work on anything except a pc. Thus, for me, portability is a very minor criteria. Well, that's my two cents worth. Kevin -- Kevin "auric" Crocker Athabasca University UUCP: ...!{alberta,ncc,attvcr}!atha!kevinc Inet: kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA
slp@genrad.uucp (Stephen L. Peters) (07/01/89)
In article <943@auvax.AthabascaU.CA> kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Kevin Crocker) writes: >In article <45900246@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu>, mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >> >> >For your information: i like wordperfect, and i never use the template at all. >> >If you use that you're bound to lose a lot of time. I don't have to look up >> >what italics is, i just hit ctrl-f8 2 4, and it's there. >nifty, I use Lotus Manuscript: to start italics your type ctrl-i, >reasonably intuitive, and to get back out you type ctrl-i again. > Sigh. I might as well leap boldly into the fray. As long as we're setting how you start italics as the mark of the "World's best word procesor," I might as well remark that if your processor has some form of macro, you can cut your keystrokes down immensely. I use WP, and though I can't for the life of me figure out why there isn't a function key assigned to "Italics," I most certainly am NOT going to type Ctrl-F8 2 4. I set up the Alt-i macro, and it works for me. Better than {\em...} (which by the way, who out there who doesn't know TeX thinks that "emphasized" is a good description for italics? Sounds like it should be bold or shadow), better than the original command for WP, and as good as the Manuscript combo above. Disclaimer: I don't listen to anyone else, so I have to use my own opinions. Stephen Peters (please send mail to portnoy@athena.mit.edu)
douglasg@hpgrla.HP.COM (@Douglas Genetten) (07/01/89)
One thing WP did well is their spell checker--at least when compared with the latest in WORD from uSoft. I too am an unimpressed WP user. How does the spellchecker in Wordstar compare? Doug Gennetten (303) 350-4474
burleigh@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (Frank Burleigh) (07/01/89)
In article <22925@genrad.UUCP> slp@genrad.genrad.COM (Stephen L. Peters) writes: > >I use WP, and though I can't for the life of me figure out why there >isn't a function key assigned to "Italics," I most certainly am NOT > actually, if you have an enhanced keyboard and use the keyboard mapping for it (enhanced.wpk), shift-f11 italicizes the currently blosked text. it should also turn italics on and off without blocking on. alt-i is also reasonable. Frank Burleigh burleigh@silver.bacs.indiana.edu USENET: ...rutgers!iuvax!silver!burleigh BITNET: BURLEIGH@IUBACS.BITNET Department of Sociology, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 47405
dl@ibiza.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (07/02/89)
# One thing WP did well is their spell checker--at least when
# compared with the latest in WORD from uSoft.
#
# I too am an unimpressed WP user. How does the spellchecker
# in Wordstar compare?
I am an old time WS user (first use-CP/M 1980) who has been
drifting toward WP. One of my biggest complaints about WS5 is
the spell checker. Now, I can't spell, and I know it. So I
often stop after I type a word and try to look up the correct
spelling, in a futile attempt to learn the correct way.
You can't do that in WS. It INSISTS on checking the spelling
of the SPACE the cursor in on, not the word. Now in WS4.0, the
speller did the same thing, but the thesaurus worked the way I
wanted. Then they 'fixed' IT too. That, combined with the fact
WS5 cannot run in the available memeory of my machine without
disabling features, has driven me to WP.
Both programs suffer from the fact that AFTER they spell check
a word, they jump forward to the next one, leaving a host of
blank spaces and CRs between (if in fact you are at the {visible}
end of your text, as I am while typing) where you is, and
where you was. But, I can write a WP macro to get back to
where I want to be.
BTW does anybody have a spellchecker that works over Procomm,
so I can stop making a fool of myself on my postings?toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (07/03/89)
In article <22850@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> burleigh@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (Frank Burleigh) writes: >In article <22925@genrad.UUCP> slp@genrad.genrad.COM (Stephen L. Peters) writes: >>I use WP, and though I can't for the life of me figure out why there >>isn't a function key assigned to "Italics," I most certainly am NOT >actually, if you have an enhanced keyboard and use the keyboard mapping >for it (enhanced.wpk), shift-f11 italicizes the currently blosked text. >it should also turn italics on and off without blocking on. Another thing to notice that italics (as well as bold, underlined, and various other attributes) are "paired", in that if you issue the italic command, an italic-on code is placed before the cursor and an italic-off code is placed after the cursor. This means that you don't have to issue the italic command at the end of your italicized characters -- just hit the right arrow key! So, with either the 101 key keyboard, or using macros to assign ALT-i we get: Italics on -- Shifted character Italics off -- Unshifted character I think you would find it hard to get simpler than that. Tom Almy toma@tekgvs.labs.tek.com Standard Disclaimers Apply
les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) (07/04/89)
In article <22925@genrad.UUCP> slp@genrad.genrad.COM (Stephen L. Peters) writes: >I use WP, and though I can't for the life of me figure out why there >isn't a function key assigned to "Italics," I most certainly am NOT >going to type Ctrl-F8 2 4. I set up the Alt-i macro, and it works for >me. Better than {\em...} An obvious point, I suppose, but if your editor allows macros and you are inclined to use them, then it really doesn't matter if the "real" commands were Ctrl-F8 2 4 or {\em...}. What might matter to some people is that WP, being semi-wysiwyg, will use a different display mode (usually color) to indicate the change and recalculate the soft word-wrap on the screen according to the new character widths. Les Mikesell
kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Kevin Crocker) (07/05/89)
In article <22925@genrad.UUCP>, slp@genrad.uucp (Stephen L. Peters) writes: > As long as we're setting how you start italics as the mark of the > "World's best word procesor," I might as well remark that if your > processor has some form of macro, you can cut your keystrokes down > immensely. Stephen, after having watched a few of these word processor wars over the last four years on usenet, I finally decided to enter the fray myself. What the hey, other people have opinions, so why can't I, right! Actually, my word processor environment is just short of being totally crazy. I use seven (7), yes count them, seven word processors in my daily work. Yes I do spend a lot of time converting text back and forth but I bought a program that does this very nicely, thank you very much. I must, however, admit that my dominant word processor is Lotus Manuscript. Mostly because I do a lot of equation stuff and it works very well. I also do a lot of crude typesetting for a variety of newsletters and such and it seems to provide very good copy very quickly and easily. I have been using most of these seven programs for years so that my learning curve is very low, but I still find features in all of them that I did not know about. I have decided to add another editor to my arsenal, microemacs. I can't really figure out why I did not have this before, but then there are a lot of things that I don't have. ANYWAY, let's keep these word processor wars going..... in fact, let's start some good old editor wars too. For example, my programmers editor is better than yours, nyah, nyah. Oh, boy! what a day this has been. Kevin -- Kevin "auric" Crocker Athabasca University UUCP: ...!{alberta,ncc,attvcr}!atha!kevinc Inet: kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA
dmimi@ecsvax.UUCP (Miriam Clifford) (07/05/89)
In article <8851@chinet.chi.il.us>, les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) writes: > In article <22925@genrad.UUCP> slp@genrad.genrad.COM (Stephen L. Peters) writes: > > WP, being semi-wysiwyg, will > use a different display mode (usually color) to indicate the change > and recalculate the soft word-wrap on the screen according to the new > character widths. And you can set each characteristic to be the color(s) you want, so the material you are interested in shows however you want it to. Very nice. You can, in fact, set WP to look and do virtually anything you want it to. It's ability to handle different fonts without distorting margins is really great (although it might look a LITTLE strange on the screen). Of course, you can always look to see what it'll look like on the printer without undue trouble.
ken@cs.rochester.edu (Ken Yap) (07/11/89)
|me. Better than {\em...} (which by the way, who out there who doesn't |know TeX thinks that "emphasized" is a good description for italics? |Sounds like it should be bold or shadow), better than the original |command for WP, and as good as the Manuscript combo above. \em is actually a LaTeXism. The reason it is \em is because when you are already in \em mode (italics), another nested \em gets you roman again. Some people like WYSIWYG, some people prefer the abstraction batch formatters like TeX and troff give you. Pick you favourite religion.