russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) (07/11/89)
couple of weeks ago, i got on the net and whined for help about my ST-251 working just fine BUT not booting the machine like it should. responses indicated that there's LOTS of unhappy st-251 owners in this world. various people suggested the following causes of the problem: 1) motor not spinning up to speed 2) an unspecified "bad chip" that various folks have had replaced at prices ranging from $75 to $125. 3) stuck "park" mechanism 4) bad cables (not applicable in my situation; i checked and swapped) 5) bad power supply and/or connectors (not applicable either, to me) i do NOT know what the truth is in my situation. i did determine that the resisistor pack had not been removed from the second HD, so i fixed that and have had no problems since. BUT the machine has not been used much since, as I have upgraded to a 386 (see recent New Emergency posting). when time allows, i will put the old machine thru its paces to see if it is truly ok now or whether the problem persists, as i want to know the truth before i sell the thing and perhaps leave some unfortunate soul with a frustrating problem. PS: does Seagate have anything to say about this? Do they care? Do they issue tech/service updates? Does it matter to them that myself and others are now very leary of their products? Does anybody know? thanks to all that replied; i wish i had more definitive results to post. -- Russell Shackelford School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA, 30332 russ@prism.gatech.edu (404) 834-4759
davidsen@sungod.crd.ge.com (William Davidsen) (07/11/89)
In article <962@hydra.gatech.EDU> russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) writes: | couple of weeks ago, i got on the net and whined for help about my | ST-251 working just fine BUT not booting the machine like it should. | | responses indicated that there's LOTS of unhappy st-251 owners in this | world. Seagate sells more hard disks than all others combined (source: _Computer Retailer_) and I'm sure they have more unhappy customers than anyone else, just as GM has more unhappy owners than Yugo. There are also millions of us who are putting together systems with Seagates and not complaining. | 1) motor not spinning up to speed | 2) an unspecified "bad chip" that various folks have had replaced at | prices ranging from $75 to $125. | 3) stuck "park" mechanism You didn't mention the static brush problems, which can cause noise and slow spinup. | 4) bad cables (not applicable in my situation; i checked and swapped) | 5) bad power supply and/or connectors (not applicable either, to me) What has this to do with Seagate? | i do NOT know what the truth is in my situation. i did determine that | the resisistor pack had not been removed from the second HD, so i fixed | that and have had no problems since. But you're knocking Seagate again, aren't you? | PS: does Seagate have anything to say about this? Do they care? | Do they issue tech/service updates? Does it matter to them that | myself and others are now very leary of their products? Does anybody | know? Why badmouth the company because you have one disk with problems (which you admit was installed incorrectly)? Every company makes some bad disks, ask anyone who sells a few thousand. Better watch out for CDC, I believe that Seagate just bought their disk business. bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM) {uunet | philabs}!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) (07/11/89)
In article <1156@crdgw1.crd.ge.com>, davidsen@sungod.crd.ge.com (William Davidsen) writes: > In article <962@hydra.gatech.EDU> russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) writes: > | couple of weeks ago, i got on the net and whined for help about my > | ST-251 working just fine BUT not booting the machine like it should. > | > | responses indicated that there's LOTS of unhappy st-251 owners in this > | world. > > Seagate sells more hard disks than all others combined (source: > _Computer Retailer_) and I'm sure they have more unhappy customers than > anyone else, just as GM has more unhappy owners than Yugo. There are > also millions of us who are putting together systems with Seagates and > not complaining. > > | i do NOT know what the truth is in my situation. i did determine that > | the resisistor pack had not been removed from the second HD, so i fixed > | that and have had no problems since. > > But you're knocking Seagate again, aren't you? > > | PS: does Seagate have anything to say about this? Do they care? > | Do they issue tech/service updates? Does it matter to them that > | myself and others are now very leary of their products? Does anybody > | know? > > Why badmouth the company because you have one disk with problems > (which you admit was installed incorrectly)? Every company makes some > bad disks, ask anyone who sells a few thousand. i was AMAZED at how many responses i got from people who had experienced the SAME symptoms with the SAME model of seagate drive. these people reported VARIOUS diagnoses/fixes to problems that were clearly drive- related! furthermore, there was no apparent straightforward way to diagnose WHICH of the various problems caused the identical symptom! MANY of these people explicitly commented that they had NEVER had any problems with hard disks before. There were also many comments to the effect that Seagate customer support is a bad Joke. In short, there seemed to be MANY people who layed down good money for an ST-251 and had major disruptions to their lives as a result. TO me, this warrants asking questions about the parent company and whether or not that company gives a damn, does anything to help users who are STUCK with a bad product from them, etc. Please observe that I did NOT post a detailed summary of the MANY angry comments about Seagate. I simply summarized the various diagnoses and asked if Seagate CARED about the fact that they had many many upset users. I HOPE their attitude is better than YOURS! To be frank, I just DON'T understand the point of your "Seagate is BIG and lotsa people are satisfied" argument. So what's the point? Unhappy Yugo owners prove that people with GM cars that fall apart should be GLAD? If Seagate is so damn big and successful, then one would think that they could do a better job of supporting their customers and of building thoroughly tested products than anyone else. You seem to take the attitude that they're big so give'm a break. I don't get it. Also, the Seagate was NOT installed improperly, the other drive was. And, I have determined that this was NOT the problem. The problem STILL occurs with the 251 being the only drive in the system. So, I spent $300+ on a drive that has given 1 year of very troubled service. And you thing that I somehow deserve this? I suppose you think I'm LUCKY because Big Seagate agreed to take my money and sell me something. If you've ever had system problems on a machine that you DEPEND on, I would assume that you would be sympathetic to others whose lives are similarly disrupted. I'm sorry, but I just don;t understand your attitude! I certainly hope that if you find yourself in a jam, you'll get responses from net people that are a great deal more sympathetic and constructive than the snippy little "serves you right" message that you sent to me! What's your problem? -- Russell Shackelford School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA, 30332 russ@prism.gatech.edu (404) 834-4759
davis@clocs.cs.unc.edu (Mark Davis) (07/11/89)
In article <962@hydra.gatech.EDU> russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) writes: > >PS: does Seagate have anything to say about this? Do they care? >Do they issue tech/service updates? Does it matter to them that >myself and others are now very leary of their products? Does anybody >know? > >russ@prism.gatech.edu (404) 834-4759 As far as know, Seagate does not have a direct connection to Usenet/Inet. Some of their employees have occasionally had private accounts on cup.portal.com and posted/e-mailed, but obviously on their own time. They do care. They want to keep selling drives. That is hard to do with a bad reputation. There is some competition you know. If you have problems, questions or complaints, I suggest you call their sales and tech support line 1(800)468-3472. They have been most helpful in the three calls I have made to them. By the way, today, they told me that the MTBF for the 225 series (ST225, ST238R, ...?) is being increased to 100,000 hours. Lots of people have complained about the reliability of that drive, but Seagate seems to have found some data to indicate they are fairly reliable. (100,000 hrs / 24 hrs/day ~= 4,000 days ~= 11 years of continuous use.) (And if you believe MTB figures, Intel has some benchmarks to sell you. But, they are an indicator.) Thanks - Mark (davis@cs.unc.edu or uunet!mcnc!davis)
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (07/13/89)
>----- >Response 2 of 2 (4248) by davidsen at sungod.crd.ge.com on Wed 12 Jul 89 09:46 > >In article <962@hydra.gatech.EDU> russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) >writes: >| couple of weeks ago, i got on the net and whined for help about my >| ST-251 working just fine BUT not booting the machine like it should. >| >| responses indicated that there's LOTS of unhappy st-251 owners in this >| world. FYI - - The older drives (red disk activity light and/or older stepper motor design - you can tell by a number of discrete wires going to the stepper rather than a flat ribbon cable) are the ones which have the stiction problem. I have not seen the problem on a drive with the newer design -- at least not on ST251's. On ST277s I have seen one with the problem, or at least I think it is the same problem. It's being RMAd and returned here; when it arrives I will check it out and let the net know whether this is the same difficulty or not (it is also possible the UPS gorillas got this one in shipment; difficult to tell until we get it back to inspect). Will keep the net posted. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
warn@druhi.ATT.COM (WarnerD) (07/13/89)
As a former Seagate employee - although not in the commodity disk drive end of the business - I believe that a fair statement of their position on drive problems and failures (at least for individuals, high volume accounts are different) would be: We are in the business of high volume, low cost manufacturing of disk drives. We market directly only to high volume purchasers either for resale to end-users or for incorporation into their system level products. We take great pains to thoroughly test our products but cannot bear the expense of direct end user support. We provide our accounts with information on reported problems, workarounds, etc. and expect them to support the end user. Note that this is emphatically NOT any statement directly from Seagate but only my own personal opinion of what their position is. In other words - if you have problems, contact your vendor; if you're considering purchase make sure you understand and accept whatever warranty provisions go along with your purchase. It goes without saying that unknown, fly-by-night mail order folks present a certain risk that saving a few bucks may not offset. Dave Warner
root@swituc.UUCP (Admin) (07/15/89)
In article <962@hydra.gatech.EDU>, russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) writes: ...much deleted... > > i do NOT know what the truth is in my situation. i did determine that > the resisistor pack had not been removed from the second HD, so i fixed > that and have had no problems since. BUT the machine has not been used > myself and others are now very leary of their products? Does anybody > > Russell Shackelford > School of Information and Computer Science > Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA, 30332 > russ@prism.gatech.edu (404) 834-4759 Come on now. You are "very leary" of their products because you did not read and follow the instructions regarding termination resistors? Doesn't that strike you as a bit unfair? Your misuse of a product does not make it defective. We have sold/used MANY Seagate drives over the years and have a very very low failure rate. Not bad, considering they are one of the lowest priced drives available from major distribution. By the way, I am in no way connected with Seagate or any other manufacturer of hard drives. I just hate to see the uninformed make rash statements. Pat Berry Sonoran Western Ind Inc #include <standard disclaimers>
Scott_A_Dalrymple@cup.portal.com (07/20/89)
Hello, folks; In article <962@hydra.gatech.EDU> russ@prism.gatech.EDU (Russell Shackelford) writes: > couple of weeks ago, i got on the net and whined for help about my > ST-251 working just fine BUT not booting the machine like it should. > [...] > responses indicated that there's LOTS of unhappy st-251 owners in this > world. > [...] I, too, am an unsatisfied 251 owner. In fact, I just posted an article for help myself recently. My problem (this time) was that the drive won't spin up at all (without a lot of fiddling). I got two answers, that the 12V supply isn't sufficient anymore, or that lubricants from the shaft are leaking and causing "stiction". I haven't checked the voltages yet, but I suspect the so-called stiction is the problem. For now, I'm leaving the system powered up 24hrs to avoid the problem. (But next week I leave for a 10-day vacation...I'll probably turn it off before I go, and I'm afraid what I'll find after 10 days of downtime; lately I've had problems after 12 hours down!) But I also have what sounds like your problem, maybe. I have a 6/12 MHz AT, switchable, and the disk never booted up with the switch set on 12MHz. Not since the day I bought it. I never took it back because the shop was far away, and I could get around the problem by booting up at 6MHz, waiting about 5-10 minutes before softkeying into Turbo mode. A pain, but I lived with it. Maybe this will work for you, Russ. P.S. Russ, I tried to email this to you at russ@prism.gatech.EDU. It got returned as undeliverable, don't know why... Please let me know what you find out about getting any satisfaction from Seagate directly. I'm tempted to contact them myself, even though my drive is past warranty, about 18 months old. Good luck and thanks for any add'l info. Scott Dalrymple Scott_A_Dalrymple@cup.portal.com Computer Sciences Corp. * DISCLAIMER: If CSC ever found out what I've * Hanover, MD 21076 * I've said here, they would probably deny it! *
Scott_A_Dalrymple@cup.portal.com (07/21/89)
In article <20621@cup.portal.com> Scott_A_Dalrymple@cup.portal.com (me) writes: > I, too, am an unsatisfied 251 owner. In fact, I just posted > an article for help myself recently. My problem (this time) was > that the drive won't spin up at all (without a lot of fiddling). > I got two answers, that the 12V supply isn't sufficient anymore, or > that lubricants from the shaft are leaking and causing "stiction". > I haven't checked the voltages yet, but I suspect the so-called > stiction is the problem. For now, I'm leaving the system powered Oops, I goofed. My apologies to Seagate. I should have checked the voltages before I opened my big mouth. My 12V power supply isn't sufficient anymore. I measured it just now. "Oh, humble pie! My favorite!" Scott Dalrymple Scott_A_Dalrymple@cup.portal.com Computer Sciences Corp. * DISCLAIMER: If CSC ever found out what I've * Hanover, MD 21076 * I've said here, they would probably deny it! *
KDM101@PSUVM.BITNET (Kevin Maher) (07/21/89)
A question.....I would like to know how old the drives are that all of
you are having problems with. I have a ST-251-0 also, and had the same
troubles that were mentioned in the articles here (the stuck heads, failure
to spin up to speed.) The drive is just over 2 years old. In fact, it failed
almost exaclty 2 years after purchase. I have since got it functional again,
and have not had a problem in the week since (exaclty 1 week today). The
problem that caused it to fail (back in March) was the head mechanism freezing
up. All I did to get it functional, and this was just stabs in the dark, was
to manually move the head servo motor just to see if it would move. ok, it did.
I then removed the PC board from the drive (I think there were 3 connectors.)
and then cleaned the brass contact strip for the platter motor and made sure
it would have good contact when put back. when I re-installed the drive,
I discovered that it was functional again, but I had lost all the data on it.
(that was from my attemts at low-level formatting it when it first crashed)
I have no idea if this might help somebody out there, but just try it...you
wont lose anything but some time if you just take the board off and visually
inspect it and make sure all connections are tight. I have heard that Seagate
has since made improvements to the connections/wires from the board to the
motors/servos. However, I've lost faith in seagate products, and in the
future, I will buy some other brand (Possibly Miniscribe - hear anything bad
about them? I'd like to know)
Kevin Maher, computer lab tech - Penn State Yorkkeithe@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Keith Ericson) (07/21/89)
In article <20621@cup.portal.com> Scott_A_Dalrymple@cup.portal.com writes: >Hello, folks; > > I, too, am an unsatisfied 251 owner. In fact, I just posted >an article for help myself recently. My problem (this time) was >that the drive won't spin up at all (without a lot of fiddling). Warning - the following originates from some very cobweb-encrusted brain cells known to be less than perfectly reliable. In other words, it is just this side (which side?) of rumor: With that out of the way: I think the Seagate ST-251 is the drive that has an unusual fix for various funny problems. By loosening a (circuit-board?) mounting screw near the front of the drive, on it's underside, some thermal expansion/contraction problems are eliminated that cause intermittent unreliabilities in the drive. If not, then never mind. kEITHe
barton@holston.UUCP (barton) (07/23/89)
I had put a 251 into my AT comp as a second hard disk alongside
the 4038 that came with the box. After about an hour of running
with the case off, I happened to feel both drives and noticed the
251 was actually HOT! The 4038 was actually COOL! I became
suspicious after this along with the other strange noises the
251 makes (I know they are supposed to be normally noisy when
parking and spinning up), and decided to send the drive back for
a 6085. All has been happy ever after.
--
Barton A. Fisk | UUCP: {attctc,texbell,vector}!warble!holston!barton
PO Box 1781 | (PSEUDO) DOMAIN: barton@holston.UUCP
Lake Charles, La. 70602 | ----------------------------------------
318-439-5984 | +++++ "Hal, open the pod bay doors" --- Davetcm@srhqla.SR.COM (Tim Meighan) (07/25/89)
In article <89202.002238KDM101@PSUVM> KDM101@PSUVM.BITNET (Kevin Maher) writes: >A question.....I would like to know how old the drives are that all of >you are having problems with. I have a ST-251-0 also, and had the same >troubles that were mentioned in the articles here (the stuck heads, failure >to spin up to speed.) The drive is just over 2 years old. [ . . . ] >However, I've lost faith in seagate products, and in the future, I will >buy some other brand (Possibly Miniscribe - hear anything bad about them? >I'd like to know) Here at work, we use Miniscribe 6032's (full-height 26-Meg) on a proprietary OS. We have 8 or 10 of them running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. They crash and burn about once a year each. (Fortunately, not all at the same time!) Note that these are not the particular Miniscribes that are popular for PCs. BTW, I feel like a pretty lucky guy these days -- I've had a Seagate ST-251 for about 2 years myself, and it has worked flawlessly. I have never had even a hiccup out of the thing. I run it 6 to 8 hours a day. Of course, now that I've bragged about it, the drive will self-destruct any day . . . A good thing to know about ST-251's -- they don't have a head locking system of any kind, and the heads just land on the platters when you turn off the power. It's a good idea to move the heads to the last track before you shut off your PC. Tim Meighan SilentRadio "You can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"
ben@val.UUCP (Ben Thornton) (07/26/89)
tcm@srhqla.SR.COM (Tim Meighan) writes: >A good thing to know about ST-251's -- they don't have a head locking system >of any kind, and the heads just land on the platters when you turn off the >power. It's a good idea to move the heads to the last track before you >shut off your PC. Not what I heard. In a phone conversation with Seagate customer support, a coworker found out that they DO have a self-parking mechanism. Perhaps your version preceded the addition of this mechanism, but all 4 of our drives have it. -- Ben Thornton packet: WD5HLS @ KB5PM Video Associates Labs uucp: ...!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!val!ben Austin, TX fidonet: 1:382/40 - The Antenna Farm BBS