mhnadel@gryphon.COM (Miriam Nadel) (06/23/89)
Has anyone else experienced incredible hassles with attempting to get service from Northgate Computers? Or can people who have dealt with them or other mail order houses give me an idea of whether I am out of line in being fed up with them? I purchased a 386 from Northgate in early March (the phone call - and my credit card charge were on February 18th, the build invoice is dated February 28th, the picking ticket claims an order date of February 20th and a shipping date of March 7th and I received the machine on March 12th.) I had problems with the machine from the very first day. When changing the system time from Central time to Pacific, I had to rerun the CMOS setup several times to get rid of "diskette types mismatch errors." The first phone call I made to their tech support was on March 14th and their help consisted only of the suggestion that I try running the CMOS setup again. I was able to get the machine to run with only minor anomalies for the next few weeks (note, however, that I was out of town and not using the system for about 8 days during that period!) Those anomalies I attributed to my unfamiliarity with DOS 4.01. On April 2nd I changed the time because of a change to daylight savings time. Immediately afterwards, I attempted to run a program I had been using successfully for several months (on other machines) and recieved a "not enough memory" message. I performed a warm boot and received a "diskette types mismatch or drive error: run setup" message. I ran the CMOS setup routine and was able to reboot the system. Later that afternoon I created a subdirectory using "mkdir." The system appeared to hang so I rebooted it after about 5 minutes. When I looked at the root directory I saw that the subdirectory had been created. I attempted to remove it and received a "directory not empty" message. When I used "dir" to look at the subdirectory, I saw a listing of all the files and directories I had on the entire disk. I attempted to delete these from the subdirectory and discovered that they had not actually been copied but that the FAT had apparently gotten scrambled so that I ended up deleting the system from the disk. I called the Northgate tech support people and they suggested using the DOS 4.01 install program to reformat the hard disk and reinstall DOS. The system appeared to work fine for the next two days, at which time I left on a business trip and a weekend vacation. I returned home on April 10th and turned on the system. It appeared to work find but I noticed that when I had changed to daylight savings time I had forgotten to type a "p" so I was off by 12 hours. Therefore, I reset the time again. I then played a game which requires one to reboot to exit. When I did a warm boot, I got an error message from PCTools that Mirror was unable to make a copy of my FAT. (I have PCTools Deluxe 5.0 and have Mirror in my autoexec.bat). I looked at the disk directory and saw that the FAT was again scrambled and that all of the files and directories on the disk were referenced in the listing of the directory of the last subdirectory I had created. I again called the tech support people who suggested reinstalling DOS. I attempted to do so but received several error messages from the install routine, ranging from the system hanging while attempting to format the hard disk (I would see an "attempting to recover bad allocation unit" message but nothing would happen for an hour at which point I performed a cold boot) to "hard disk controller error 0" while rebooting to "disk not partitioned." In the latter case I exited "install" and used fdisk to examine the partitions and saw that I did indeed have a primary DOS partition occupying the entire disk. I attempted "install" again and when I received the same error message, let the "select" program choose the partitions. This was supposed to cause the system to reboot; however, nothing happened. Up to this point I had not had trouble attempting to boot up from a diskette. The next time I attempting to boot from the system disk, I received a few "drive A not ready" messages before I was able to boot up. On other attempts to boot up the system, either nothing happened or I received "hard disk controller error 0" messages and/or "diskette types mismatch or drive error" messages; the latter went away when I ran the CMOS setup, sometimes repeatedly. I had several conversations with Northgate technical support people during that period but their advice was only to keep running the CMOS setup. The next problem which developed was a "video error" message (one long beep, followed by two short beeps) or nothing at all happening when I attempted to reboot. Another two calls to technical support in the course of which I reseated the video card without effect and examine the leads on the video card to make sure they were not shorted. I was still unable to get the BIOS to recognize the video card. At this point the technical support person offered me the option of either having them send me a new video card, hard disk and hard disk controller or shipping the system back to them for repair; I opted for the latter given the large number of problems I'd been encountering. The machine was sent back to Northgate on April 14th. I received it back on May 18th and the invoice stated that the motherboard had been replaced to fix the video problem and that the disk controller had been replaced to fix the hard disk errors. I left the machine on running a graphics routine for the next two days in a vain attempt to burn in the boards. (I say now that it is a vain attempt because the program did not access the hard disk after intialization so really did nothing to check out the controller. Read on to see the relevance of this remark.) The next problems appeared on June 11th. (Note that I was out of town from June 1 - 8th so that the problem may have occurred as early as May 31th. I did not turn on the machine between then and June 10th.) I turned on the machine to play games for a brief time on the 10th; when parking the machine prior to turning it off, I noticed a strange sound. The next day the system booted fine initially but a warm boot (due to a program hanging) resulted in a "drive C: disk error" message. I finally managed to reach Northgate technical support on the phone on June 14th but they were unable to assist me because I was at my office, rather than at home with the system. I called them early on the morning of the 15th and they advised reseating the controller and all the ribbon cables and, if that failed, reformatting the hard disk. Neither of these had any effect. I attempted reformatting the hard disk using PCFORMAT (from PCTools Deluxe) and received a "bad system area" message. I called back and attempted a low level format but received "bad sector" messages for every sector. The technician then decided that my hard disk was beyond help and authorized replacement of the disk and controller. I received the new hard disk and controller on June 15th. On the 16th I installed them. When I removed the old hard disk, I noticed what appeared to be corrosion on the back, near the pins for the ribbon connectors but I do not know if this is of any relevance to the problems. The physical installation was without incident; however, when I reached the "low level format" step the command "g=c800:5" in debug did nothing. I called tech support again (6/19) and they told me to use "g=cc00:5" for a color system. ( Why this isn't in the installation documentation is beyond me but it turns out that the disk was already supposed to be low level formatted and several other areas of the documentation are out of date so it isn't awfully surprising.) At any rate, I then ran fdisk and attempted to format the disk but DOS format failed. When I ran PCFORMAT, I received a "bad partition table" message. I called tech support again (6/20) and told them this and the technician's response was "why did you low level format?" I told him that I was following the directions in the installation manual and that if I wasn't supposed to low level format, the other technician I spoke to should have told me not to. He then directed me to delete the partition and repartition the disk which I did. It then formatted but "dir" indicated that the disk was only 10 Mb (instead of 65). The technician advised me to repeat the low level format. I did this that evening and was able to partition and format the disk. However, while "format c: /s /v" wrote the system onto the disk, the system still could not be booted from the hard drive. (I received "missing operating system" messages.) The next morning I attempted to redo the DOS level format and first looked to see what, if anything, had been written to the disk in the previous attempt. When I typed "dir c:" I received an "invalid drive" specification message. Rebooting, I was able to access the drive but when I attempted redoing the DOS level format, it was unsuccessful. I ran fdisk and looked at the partition table and it showed that I had an active primary partition of 17 Mb but claimed the overall disk size was 10 Mb. That afternoon I copied fdisk and format off a machine at work so that I could test whether the problem was with them or the hardware. They were able to partition and format the disk but "dir" indicated that the disk was 34 Mb and I still received a "missing operating system" message when attempting to boot from the hard drive. I decided to go ahead and see if I could actually run anything from the hard drive so I copied a small graphics program on and it appeared to run fine. The next morning (this morning! 6/22) I booted up the sytem preparatory to calling tech support again. I did a "dir" of the hard disk and found that the program I had put on the previous day had vanished. When I talked to tech support, the only possibility they could offer was that the drive had been damaged in shipping (not preposterous since they ship them in unsealed wrappings in styrofoam which has considerable potential for causing damage from static electricity!) When they offered to ship another replacement hard disk and controller, I told them that I wanted to discuss any options I might have for returning the whole system since it had only worked between 25 and 43 days out of the roughly 100 that I had it. (It depends on what you want to assume about whether the machine was working when I was away; even if it were 43% reliability is pretty poor in my eyes!) They gave me the number of the customer satisfaction department. When I called them I discussed the situation and they called technical support, they decided that I had not had sufficient problems with the system to warrant refunding my money. If I insisted on returning it, there would be a 15% restocking fee because this was "such a long time" after I received the system. (Note that the system has a 1 year warranty. I was never informed of any restriction on how long I had to give up hope of their tech support people finding and fixing the problems. The only relevant phrase on the warranty as far as I can tell is "returns due to customer error are subject to a 15% restocking fee;" it is unclear to me how they could claim that this applies to my situation. Another paragraph of the warranty states that "any damage, items missing, or any other discrepancy with your requested order must be reported to Northgate within 7 days of receipt or the buyer waives any and all indemnities for such discrepencies." However, this appears to me to refer to things like them sending you a monochrome system when you paid for VGA and the like. They said I should make another attempt with a replacement hard drive and controller; I asked whether they would then refund my money should such a replacement be unsuccessful to which the customer satisfaction representative replied that she couldn't make guarantees. I agreed to this attempt, mostly because I see no other choice. I remain unimpressed with the competence of the technical support people (on one of my many phone calls - each one of which seemed to result to talking to a different technician, by the way - I was told that hardware problems are rare and that almost all of their calls are people who don't understand DOS. If this is indeed so, it could account for their failure to diagnose hardware problems. However, since they are in the business of selling software, I do not consider this an adequate excuse.) At this point I am almost hoping that the new hard disk and controller do not work because I am so disgusted with the repeated problems that I've had. (Even during the period when the machine has worked, there have always been some anomalies - largely video related, but I have not had the time to attempt dealing with these.) I have advised two colleagues who were considering purchasing essentially the same system to use local dealers instead since any savings I might have had by buying from Northgate have been eaten up by long distance telephone calls (only sales has an 800 number; several times I have asked tech support to call me back when they could not help on the first attempt but they have yet to do so. Indeed, the customer satisfaction department was supposed to have them call me today with a new return merchandise authorization number but I have been in my office all afternoon with nary a peep. Disgustedly, Miriam Nadel -- Not one of the 18% of Americans who are underweight. mhnadel@gryphon.COM <any backbone site>!gryphon!mhnadel nadel@aspen.aero.org
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (06/25/89)
(re: Northgate problems) That is absolutely HORRIBLE! I wish you luck in getting the system repaired; if you decide you have had enough give us a holler... We'll be more than happy to help you out with a '386 system.... And no, we don't yank customers around like that when there are problems... I would be INCREDIBLY pissed off if this happened to me -- that is not, by any reasonable standard, customer service! Secondly, I can't believe they actually charged your credit card almost a month before shipment! Again, that's not something I would consider reasonable. We certainly don't do that kind of crap -- but is something that often happens in this industry. I wish you the best in resolving these problems... -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
saal@cbnewsl.ATT.COM (samuel.saal) (06/26/89)
These problems seem pretty severe. I can't comment on them
except to say that my experience has been different.
I bought my NorthGate 286/12 shortly after it was rated Editor's
Choice in PC Magazine. It did take a long time to ship and they
did bill my card immediately. However, I when I got the credit
card statement, I was able to write to the card company andrefuse
to payuntil I received the machine. Interest was defered, as
well.
Since then, they've been pretty good about tech support. It is a
pain to get through to them. The support line is usually busy.
I prefer that to being put on hold when it's my dime (would that
it were only a dime :-). Last week my monitor wouldn't power up.
I called and the first thing they asked (after I told them that I
had tested the outlet and done the normal checks) was what brand
monitor I had. When I told them it was an Imtec (VGA), they said
"OK, no prob. There have been power supply problems with them
and we no longer supply them." They Federal Expressed a new
monitor (Princeton Graphics Ultra 14 - probably better than the
Imtec) the same day and I have 2 weeks to ship the old one back.
They recommended I ship cheapest way - book rate?:-) However, the
cable that came with the new monitor was bad (bent and missing
pins; I blame the monitor company) and they are Federal
Expressing a new cable to me. They would have charged me extra
for Saturday delivery so I'm waiting for Monday's delivery.
I am pretty satisfied with the fact that they answer questions
quickly, though, I admit, the few I've asked haven't been too
tough.
--
Sam Saal ...!attunix!saal <-- NOTE: Please use this path.
Do not use the reply feature. It doesn't know me.
Vayiphtach HaShem et Peah HaAtonehjg@amms4.UUCP (Harry Gross) (06/28/89)
In article <17029@gryphon.COM> mhnadel@gryphon.COM (Miriam Nadel) writes: >Has anyone else experienced incredible hassles with attempting to get service >from Northgate Computers? Or can people who have dealt with them or other >mail order houses give me an idea of whether I am out of line in being fed >up with them? > [severe horror story deleted] No, I don't think you are out of line being fed up. Northgate has been running a very expensive ad campaign in PC Magazine for several weeks (months?) now. They are trying to impress everyone with the fact that they have created an 'elegant' machine. If your experience is typical, then they have a _very_ strange definition of the word 'elegant' :-) Seriously, I hope you are able to solve your problems, but I would tend to shy away from Northgate after having read about your difficulties. -- Harry | reserved for | something really Internet: hjg@amms4.UUCP (we're working on registering)| clever - any UUCP: {jyacc, qtny, rna, bklyncis}!amms4!hjg | suggestions?
ugbell@sunybcs.uucp (William Bell) (06/28/89)
To: mhnadel@gryphon.COM Subject: Re: Northgate Problems Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <17029@gryphon.COM> Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science Cc: Bcc: What a nightmare! I bought a system from Rose Hill and just received it. They keyboard didn't work correctly so I called the 1800 number and left a message for my salesman who sold me the system. Then the operator at Rose Hill suggested talking with Tech Help which I did and they were very helpful. They arranged to send me a new keyboard, and once I receive it to send them the broken one. They will pay UPS-Ground fees. Later that day my salesman called! Which totally surprised me since most companies never call it seems. We will see about any other problems, but it seems to be working out great!
mjs@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mike Sensale) (06/30/89)
A recent posting by Miriam Nadel suggests that Northgate computers are plagued with problems. I submit to you that Ms. Nadel is the Problem. I am a proud owner of a Northgate PC and where my machiot been perfect as is true with all machines any and all problems I have encountered have been easily corrected by the Northgate techs. Many of these problems were simply improper settings caused by myself and resident programs. It is obvious that Miraim Nadel has little or no experience with PC's. Here posting reads like a disgruntled house wife who went out and bought herself a computer without taking into account the the complications of setting one up. Now it appears as if she fears having to explain to some other party how the family budget has suddenly been decreased by $4000. I spoke to Northgate yesterday. The tech. I spoke with happened to be the same one who handled Miriams calls. I was told that they did everything possible to resolve her problem. Nortgate even offered to replace the entire PC at no charge. She refused and claimed she wanted a full refund, not a refund with a 15% restocking charge. It seems to me that people who buy from mail order companies forget that it is a totally different situation than when buying from a computer store. First of all you cant see what you are buying and there is somewhat of a risk involved. However, Northgate has had an outstanding reputation for shipping quality machine with very short turn-around time on repairs. Secondly Prices are lower because Mail order companies do not have the overhead of the computer stores. All this along with over the phone technical support allow mail order companies to sell there products at lower costs. What Miraim and other people do not realize until they have the computer in there homes is that saving a few dollars means putting in a bit of time configuring your machine to work with you software and hardware. Basically it comes down to... caveat emptor. In case you don't know what that means Miraim it means "Let the buyer beware"
smn+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sherri Menees Nichols) (07/01/89)
> Excerpts from ext.nn.comp.sys.ibm.pc: 30-Jun-89 RE: Northgate Problems > Mike Sensale@beach.cis.u (2055) > It is obvious that Miraim Nadel has little or no experience with > PC's. Here posting reads like a disgruntled house wife who went out and > bought herself a computer without taking into account the the > complications > of setting one up. Now it appears as if she fears having to explain to > some > other party how the family budget has suddenly been decreased by $4000. I consider this paragraph sexist and offensive. It should not be necessary for you to attack Ms. Nadel in order to defend Northgate. Sherri Nichols (a happy, female Northgate customer) smn+@andrew.cmu.edu
dhesi@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Rahul Dhesi) (07/01/89)
In article <20546@bikini.cis.ufl.EDU> mjs@beach.cis.ufl.edu writes: >Nortgate even offered to replace the entire >PC at no charge. She refused and claimed she wanted a full refund, not a >refund with a 15% restocking charge. Before I bought my own system from Northgate, I asked about the return policy. I was told about a 30-day "compatibility warranty": if I had any trouble with compatibility with other hardware or software within 30 days after purchase, I could return the machine and get a refund. No 15% restocking charge was ever mentioned to me on the telephone. Were I to have any trouble with my machine (haven't had any so far), want to return my system, and be asked to pay 15%, I would be very, very upset. In the mail/phone order business there are many verbal agreements, and I expect everybody I do business with to keep them. -- Rahul Dhesi <dhesi@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> UUCP: ...!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!dhesi
smvorkoetter@watmum.waterloo.edu (Stefan M. Vorkoetter) (07/01/89)
In article <20546@bikini.cis.ufl.EDU> mjs@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: >A recent posting by Miriam Nadel suggests that Northgate computers are >plagued with problems. I submit to you that Ms. Nadel is the Problem. > >It is obvious that Miraim Nadel has little or no experience with >PC's. Here posting reads like a disgruntled house wife who went out and >bought herself a computer without taking into account the the complications >of setting one up. Now it appears as if she fears having to explain to some >other party how the family budget has suddenly been decreased by $4000. What is this Neanderthal doing on the net? (mjs, not Miriam) >I spoke to Northgate yesterday. The tech. I spoke with happened to be the >same one who handled Miriams calls. I was told that they did everything >possible to resolve her problem. Nortgate even offered to replace the entire >PC at no charge. She refused and claimed she wanted a full refund, not a >refund with a 15% restocking charge. Charging a restocking charge for returning a machine which does not and never did work right is absurd. >It seems to me that people who buy from mail order companies forget that >it is a totally different situation than when buying from a computer store. Oh, I get it. It is okay for a mail order company to rip people off, after all, that is what you would expect. Get with it. A mail order company has every obligation that a store has. What they don't have is the overhead of maintaining a store front. They make their money by volume, and can thus offer everything a store can, for less. (** Other drivel deleted **) I also don't buy the line that Miriam knows little about PCs. Of course Northgate is going to tell you that. But then, I tend to disbelieve any things that a company that says bad things to one customer about another customer would say. Besides, how many people who know little about PCs would order a killer 386 machine like that? And finally, why do I suspect that you would not have made the "disgruntled housewife" comment if you had not known from the name that this person was female. You certainly can't tell from the letter. I didn't realize (not that it matters other than in the context of your comment) until I read your comment. Stefan Vorkoetter No particular affiliation as far as this letter is concerned Please mail further comments to me, as this is not really appropriate for comp.sys.ibm.pc
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (07/02/89)
>Item 4071 (0 responses) by mjs at beach.cis.ufl.edu on Sat 01 Jul 89 22:22 >[Mike Sensale] Subject: RE: Northgate Problems > >A recent posting by Miriam Nadel suggests that Northgate computers are >plagued with problems. I submit to you that Ms. Nadel is the Problem. >I am a proud owner of a Northgate PC and where my machiot been >perfect as is true with all machines any and all problems I have encountered >have been easily corrected by the Northgate techs. Many of these problems >were simply improper settings caused by myself and resident programs. > >It is obvious that Miraim Nadel has little or no experience with >PC's. Here posting reads like a disgruntled house wife who went out and.... ...... (lots more deleted) This is unadulterated garbage! First off, your comment above is sexist and uncalled for. Secondly, the report I read (did you read it all?) specifically referenced two problems that I cannot reconcile with bad software, user misunderstanding or other problems of that kind -- CMOS memory settings altering themselves (!) and video board failures. Neither of those can be caused by rogue software configurations, unless you are doing low-level work (ie: writing "C" code which is bad can corrupt the CMOS). Nothing I can come up with would explain the video board boot failures -- except a board or system failure of some kind. Some of the disk troubles (disappearing files, corrupted FATs) _CAN_ be caused by software errors. If this is indeed the case, however, I would blame Northgate anyways -- they are shipping DOS 4.x, WHICH IS KNOWN TO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH SOME UTILITY SOFTWARE! WHY WASN'T MIRIAM WARNED AND GIVEN A CHOICE OF MSDOS 3.3 INSTEAD? Specifically, some versions of Norton's will blow the FAT tables of a 4.x disk drive, and some other utility software will do the same. For this reason we recommend AGAINST the purchase of 4.x at this time, instead selling most customers DOS 3.30. That many are unaware of the pitfalls in DOS 4 is not an issue -- that NORTHGATE appears to be unaware of the pitfalls, didn't advise the customer of the potential problems, and didn't know what had possibly caused the problem after a failure is inexcusable! In short, they sell the product. They had darn well better know it also, or eat the consequences. I will address a few other concerns of Miriam's here as well (my prior posting on this subject addressed the credit-card nonsense): 1) The replacement disk was claimed to have been shipped in a box without anti-stat wrap, surrounded by "peanuts" (styrofoam packing). This is BAD NEWS. Disk drives should be shipped in semi-rigid foam -- not styrofoam beads. They should also be in some kind of conductive wrapping. Styrofoam can generate thousands of volts of static charge when it is moved around, and "peanuts" shift, allowing the drive to bang against the side of the box! Nothing that heavy, fragile, and with mass concentration similar to a fixed disk should EVER be shipped in a box using "peanuts" as cushioning material. To do so is to ask for concealed damage to occur. 2) Northgate took a _month_ to fix the system the first time. This is unacceptable, and does not live up to their stated service policies. I'd flame them to a crisp for that alone. 3) They acknowledged the problem by replacing the motherboard on the system. In other words, they admitted something was broken. 4) I would like to hear how a software incompatibility can cause the system disk to be unformattable. That is, how some software problem can prevent a _LOW LEVEL_ format from working. I don't think that is likely in any set of circumstances. Sounds like a bad disk or controller to me. In short, I believe that the disk corruption may (MAY) have been caused by software incompatibility problems - the rest sounds like hardware trouble to me. This does not excuse Northgate in the least -- they should KNOW WHAT THEY SELL, and advise the customer accordingly. It is reasonable for a company to charge a restocking fee on returned hardware which is working at the time it is returned. It's not reasonable to do the same on a piece of equipment which has been nearly unusable since it was purchased, has a one year warranty, and doesn't work right even after a trip back to the factory for service -- not to mention that the time during which it wasn't malfunctioning the gear was either in transit for repairs or hadn't been shipped originally to the customer! Selling something mail-order does not absolve the vendor from knowing the products they are selling, including their pitfalls and weak points. In my opinion, Northgate owes Miriam a working system or a full refund, and owes every potential purchaser an explanation of the potential troubles when shipping things like MSDOS 4 -- before they buy. Disclaimer: I'm the President of a company that sells ATs and 386 systems. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
kjc@cuuxb.ATT.COM (~XT6513400~Kevin Coulter~C29~L18~6282~) (07/04/89)
In article <20546@bikini.cis.ufl.EDU> mjs@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: >A recent posting by Miriam Nadel suggests that Northgate computers are >plagued with problems. I submit to you that Ms. Nadel is the Problem. >I am a proud owner of a Northgate PC and where my machiot been >perfect as is true with all machines any and all problems I have encountered >have been easily corrected by the Northgate techs. Many of these problems >were simply improper settings caused by myself and resident programs. > >It is obvious that Miraim Nadel has little or no experience with >PC's. Here posting reads like a disgruntled house wife who went out and >bought herself a computer without taking into account the the complications >of setting one up. Now it appears as if she fears having to explain to some >other party how the family budget has suddenly been decreased by $4000. Rather, it is obvious that you are in the 0.0001% of Northgate owners who have machines that WORK. In the fall of 1987, I purchased a $2500 286 machine from them. This was a lot of money to someone working 17 hours a week in college, who needed a DOS machine. Nothing fancy. EGA, 32MB HDU, dual floppy, 1MB RAM. It took until April to get a system that somewhat worked. That system currently has a bad serial port, a bad NiCAD battery, and it occassionally doesn't supply power to the HDU on bootup. That is the best it's been since I've had it. It is also going to be sold to the first computer store that I find that is dumb enough to buy used computers, and I can get my AT&T machine set up. I also think that it is unfair to suggest that the problems are Miriam's fault. To me, it sounds like she's technically competent. Maybe I'm wrong. But how do YOU know she is not right????? In any case, I can tell you, I AM technically competent, and they have BAD HARDWARE. I don't know how many HDU's, controllers, floppy drive's, etc. I installed in that machine between Oct 87 and Apr 88. I sent the whole CPU back to them once (at my expense), and it came back, dented as if it had been dropped (possibly bby UPS, possibly by them; anyways, their "packing" is rotten). It did not work. They sent me a new CPU (after they received the old one), saying that they made extra sure everything was fine - DOS is loaded and ready to go, just load your software. In the process of loading the software (commercial packages with install programs e.g. WordPerfect, Turbo Pascal, etc), I got "General Failure" on the HDU. Finally, they sent me the above mentioned CPU, that somewhat works. These CPU problems were magnified because neither myself nor anyone in my immediate family had credit cards, so they had to receive the old part before sending a new one. I wanted a refund. badly. I somehow talked to the prez of northgate. When I told him how shabbly I was treated, how I was getting the big delays due to no charge card (hey, it is not MY fault that they have defective products), that I was TRYING to work on my senior project, and that I felt that his support people took the phone off the hook (I once tried calling an hour before their support time began and got a busy for several tries), he wanted to know what I did to HIS machines, and then HUNG UP ON ME! GIVE ME A BREAK! By the way, their 100% refund applies (or at least did) only to DOS compatibility issues. It does not apply to defective products. I guess you gotta write some code that works on a IBM, but not a northgate. :-) I currently work in Support for AT&T. If I ever acted as bad as Northgate did, I would be fired instantly. >I spoke to Northgate yesterday. The tech. I spoke with happened to be the >same one who handled Miriams calls. I was told that they did everything >possible to resolve her problem. Nortgate even offered to replace the entire >PC at no charge. She refused and claimed she wanted a full refund, not a >refund with a 15% restocking charge. What business do you have discussing Miriam's problems with a Northgate rep without her permission? Replacing the PC did me no good. She DESERVES a full refund! >It seems to me that people who buy from mail order companies forget that >it is a totally different situation than when buying from a computer store. >First of all you cant see what you are buying and there is somewhat of a >risk involved. However, Northgate has had an outstanding reputation for >shipping quality machine with very short turn-around time on repairs. Secondly >Prices are lower because Mail order companies do not have the overhead of >the computer stores. All this along with over the phone technical support >allow mail order companies to sell there products at lower costs. What >Miraim and other people do not realize until they have the computer in there >homes is that saving a few dollars means putting in a bit of time configuring >your machine to work with you software and hardware. Basically it comes down >to... caveat emptor. > >In case you don't know what that means Miraim it means "Let the buyer beware" Try I got suckered like Miriam did by their nice ads! What a farce. I think you are saying that because they are mail order, they don't have to play fair. BULL! Wake up and smell the coffee!!! Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------- The above comments are purely those of Kevin Coulter. Your mileage may vary. -- Kevin Coulter "If it don't have wheels, it ain't a sport!!!" AT&T Data Systems Group Lisle, IL {att,lll-crg,attunix}!cuuxb!kjc OR cuuxb!kjc@arpa.att.com
kji@vpnet.UUCP (Ken Isacson) (07/04/89)
After all that I have read about Northgate computers in PC magazines, I would not touch one with a ten foot pole!
nghiem@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Alex Nghiem) (07/05/89)
[massive complaints about Northgate computers...] Someone needs to print these complaints and send them to Computer Shopper, PC Magazine, etc, etc; the magazines that publish Northgate Ads under "Truth in Mail Order Advertising" rules.
yhe@zippy.eecs.umich.edu (Youda He) (07/05/89)
I am in the 386 market, after reading posts about Northgate, it is out of my consideration.
pre1@tank.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) (07/15/89)
Well, maybe I'm the only one on the Net who can report good experiences with Northgate products, but I think that I had better, lest someone think that only negative things are said about them. First, I have to say that these are the first negative things that I've heard said about Northgate. I read the computer press pretty regularly and don't recall any complaints, much less ones of this magnitude! It should be noted, however, that these industry rags are the same ones in which Northgate tends to advertise. I'm not suggesting, or even implying, a relationship, just making an observation. Second, all the things that I've heard on my local BBS's, as well a friend who owns two Northgate 386's, have been very positive. My friend has recommended the Northgate line to numerous people. Just wanted to get a little balance in there. Grant Prellwitz
lowood@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Henry Lowood) (07/16/89)
In article <4467@tank.uchicago.edu> pre1@tank.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) writes: >Well, maybe I'm the only one on the Net who can report good experiences with >Northgate products, but I think that I had better, lest someone think that >only negative things are said about them. > I have also been very satisfied with my Northgate machine. I also agree with the rest of your posting, in that all the reviews I have read have been positive. I was flabbergasted when I read the previous postings.
sharon@asylum.SF.CA.US (Sharon Fisher) (07/17/89)
In article <4467@tank.uchicago.edu> pre1@tank.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) writes: >Well, maybe I'm the only one on the Net who can report good experiences with >Northgate products, but I think that I had better, lest someone think that >only negative things are said about them. > >First, I have to say that these are the first negative things that I've heard >said about Northgate. I read the computer press pretty regularly and don't >recall any complaints, much less ones of this magnitude! It should be noted, >however, that these industry rags are the same ones in which Northgate tends >to advertise. I'm not suggesting, or even implying, a relationship, just >making an observation. As somebody who used to work for one of the "industry rags" you mention (InfoWorld), I can guarantee you that they would not hold back or otherwise not do a story because the subject was an advertiser. Several times during my two years there we did stories on mail order company ripoffs -- including our own advertisers. -- "Inanna spoke: My vulva, the horn, the Boat of Heaven, is full of eagerness like the young moon. My untilled land lies fallow. As for me, Inanna, who will plow my vulva? Who will plow my high field? Who will plow my wet ground?" Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth Her Stories and Hymns from Sumer
dorf@b11.ingr.com (David Dorfmueller) (07/18/89)
In article <4467@tank.uchicago.edu> pre1@tank.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) writes: >Well, maybe I'm the only one on the Net who can report good experiences with >Northgate products, but I think that I had better, lest someone think that >only negative things are said about them. > [text deleted] I have also bought a Northgate Computer and have been very pleased with it. I was beginning to think I bought the wrong one. David Dorfmueller uunet!ingr!dorf
madd@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Jim Frost) (08/03/89)
In article <5485@b11.ingr.com> dorf@b11.UUCP (David Dorfmueller) writes: |In article <4467@tank.uchicago.edu> pre1@tank.uchicago.edu (Grant Prellwitz) writes: |>Well, maybe I'm the only one on the Net who can report good experiences with |>Northgate products, but I think that I had better, lest someone think that |>only negative things are said about them. I have a northgate and am very pleased with it, except that I'm having some problems locating a 32-bit memory expansion board; I need at least 8Mb in the thing and can only fit 4Mb on the motherboard. If anyone has any suggestions as to where to find a board (preferably empty) I'd be very happy. Besides that, the machine is reliable, quick, and not very expensive. jim frost software tool & die madd@std.com
gors@well.UUCP (Gordon Stewart) (08/08/89)
In article <[4071.1]comp.ibmpc;1@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > > >Disclaimer: I'm the President of a company that sells ATs and 386 systems. > >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) >Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] >Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" Glad to have your address, Karl. If I'm in the market soon for another 386 box, I'm gonna give you first crack at it! And, btw -- Miriam has been an insightful net contributor for quite a while. If she's not happy, I'M NOT HAPPY! -- {apple, pacbell, hplabs, ucbvax}!well!gors gors@well.sf.ca.us (Doolan) | (Meyer) | (Sierchio) | (Stewart)