tim@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Timothy L. Kay) (08/15/89)
I recently posted a request for votes regarding posting of FOR SALE items to comp.sys.ibm.pc. For starters, please excuse the subject above. I know that some of the people that responded to my poll have "FOR SALE" in their kill files, yet they would want to see this posting. Therefore, I had to disguise the words FOR SALE. Also, let me point out that I am not the person who posted 20 articles about a PC Convertible for sale. I am just an innocent bystander, but some people seem to have confused me with him. Now, on to the vote. I received 20 replies (including one from myself). Should FOR SALE items appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc? YES: 6 NO: 14 How should we interpret this? If the net were a strict democracy, then nothing could be posted. (If somebody asked me if postings about word processors should be allowed, I would respond NO simply because I am not interested in talking about word processors.) Some of the NO votes used logic that we shouldn't allow these postings because people don't get it right. For example, if we were to allow short postings, then people would also include long postings. Such reasoning would certainly exclude postings of every type. Some of the NO votes suggested that the distribution be restricted. I personally have purchased an entire IBM AT from someone in Chicago. I live in LA. My conclusion about the above numbers, then, is that there is sufficient interest in FOR SALE postings that it should continue. I'd like to suggest a few rules: 1. FOR SALE postings should include the keywords FOR SALE in the subject. 2. FOR SALE postings should be short and to the point (as should all postings). Selling a hard disk should require at most two or three lines of text. Also, you'll need a few short lines for the address and phone number. 3. FOR SALE items should be posted to at most a USA distribution (assuming, of course that you are in the USA). Used equipment is rarely sold to other countries. If you think your item will sell quickly, restrict the distribution even further. 4. Do not cross post (except to perhaps misc.forsale). If you think what you are selling is of such general interest, then misc.forsale alone should be adequate. 5. You should assume that one posting is enough. If someone didn't see your posting the first time, a. s/he probably didn't want to read it, b. s/he hasn't read the group for so long that the article expired (in which case s/he probably doesn't want to read it), c. s/he missed it by mistake (in which case s/he won't see the article (too bad) because it isn't worth reposting for one clutz's benefit). In other words, **DON'T POST A SECOND TIME UNLESS YOU HAVE A GOOD REASON**. If you are getting lots of responses, you may post a second time to say that it is sold. 6. Do not use the newsgroup as an auction block. If you insist on haggling, use private mail. **DO NOT POST MESSAGES OF THE FORM "I've been offered $xxx.xx so far."** Please note that the previous paragraph is my opinion only, and I in no way represent the net. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the responses I received. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------YES From Timothy L. Kay (ME) YES. (See my comments above.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From davis@cs.unc.edu Wed Aug 9 07:32 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 09:31:10 EDT From: Mark Davis <davis@cs.unc.edu> In article <11504@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> you write: > ... >I'd like to take an informal vote as to whether you think that >*short* for-sale items should continue to appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO If people were consistent on subject lines, I might be pursuaded, but this discussion almost got deleted by my standard "for sale" kill command. People that post "for sale" in this group should be ignored (unless they are obnoxious, in which case they should be flamed). >Please send me mail, and I will summarize. Also, would people be >interested in comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale as an alternative? Maybe. The big problem is that ibm.pc hardware also works on Suns and ... > ... >tim!cit-vax.uucp >tim@csvax.caltech.edu tim@maggot.cs.caltech.edu tim%maggot@hamlet.caltech.edu > >(We are changing from a class C to a class B address, and things are a mess.) Hope this helps - Mark (davis@cs.unc.edu or uunet!mcnc!davis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------YES From elroy!ames.arc.nasa.gov!xanth!ginosko.UUCP!cg-atla!fredex@csvax.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 07:56 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 08:53:28 EDT From: elroy!ginosko!cg-atla!fredex@csvax.caltech.edu (Fred Smith) To: ginosko!xanth!ames!henry.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!cit-vax!tim I don't mind an occasional for sale message. The reason I posted the comment I made is that I was seeing the (censored) thin 2-5 times everytime I read the net and thought that was kinda excessive!!! Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From poirier@cs.unc.edu Wed Aug 9 07:58 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 09:52:49 EDT From: Dan Poirier <poirier@cs.unc.edu> NOO! For sale items should appear in the appropriate newsgroup, misc.forsale. Comp.sys.ibm.pc is crowded enough already, and as someone else pointed out, some sites don't WANT to receive for sale postings. Let's respect their wishes, huh? Those of us who are interested (yes, I am) can read misc.forsale, or complain to our administration if we don't get it, rather than perverting the newsgroup system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From MA.STAHEL@SCIENCE.UTAH.EDU Wed Aug 9 08:27 PDT 1989 Date: Wed 9 Aug 89 08:26:26-MDT From: Andreas Stahel <MA.STAHEL@SCIENCE.UTAH.EDU> In reply of your request for an informal vote on SALE adds in comp.sys.ibm.pc ABSOLUTELY NO ADDS please, they belong to an other place. If I would be interested in buying some equipment I would prefer to check a dedicated news group. Andreas ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!sioux!dale@csvax.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 10:28 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 09:10:37 CDT From: elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!sioux!dale@csvax.caltech.edu (Dale Stevens) I vote against forsale postings in comp.sys.ibm.pc. I also vote against a new group. ---- Dale Stevens. Motorola Inc. cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!apache!dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!ames!harvard!genrad.com!somewhere!jpn@csvax.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 10:57 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 12:28:37 EDT From: elroy!ames!harvard!genrad.com!jpn@csvax.caltech.edu (John P. Nelson) >I'd like to take an informal vote as to whether you think that >*short* for-sale items should continue to appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc. NO! >Also, would people be interested in comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale as an alternative? Perhaps. But maybe misc.forsale.pc would be a better name for the new forum? -- john nelson UUCP: {decvax,mit-eddie}!genrad!jpn smail: jpn@genrad.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------YES From elroy!ames!lll-winken!psuvax1!shire.cs.psu.edu!ghodsi@csvax.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 12:01 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 12:43:01 EDT From: elroy!psuvax1!shire.cs.psu.edu!ghodsi@csvax.caltech.edu (M. Ghodsi) I vote yes for comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale. --M. Ghodsi ghodsi@shire.cs.psu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From efv@security.mitre.org Wed Aug 9 13:32 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 15:32:53 edt From: efv@security.mitre.org (Eugene F. Vogt) No, NO a thousand NOs!! >Please send me mail, and I will summarize. Also, would people be >interested in comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale as an alternative? there is already misc.forsale and xx.forsale, where xx=region (ne for me, for instance) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>---> Eugene F. Vogt (efv@security) <---<< ----------------------------------------------------------- arpa: efv@mitre.org | US Mail: MITRE Corp. MCI Mail: evogt (201-6274) | Mail Stop K329 BIX: genevogt | Burlington Road EasyLink: 62930778 | Bedford, MA 01730 UUCP: linus!mbunix!efv | Ma Bell: 617-271-8886 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From CHRIS@pucc.Princeton.EDU Wed Aug 9 14:51 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 09 Aug 89 16:43:31 EDT From: CHRIS DIETRICH <CHRIS@pucc.Princeton.EDU> I vote for NOT posting for-sale items in comp.sys.ibm.pc. CSIP is not a want-ad bulletin board. There are already numerous for-sale groups. Chris Dietrich, Chris@PUCC.Princeton.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!jplpro.Jpl.Nasa.Gov!psivax!harvard!vax.ftp.com!wjr@csvax.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 15:17 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 09:54:52 EDT From: elroy!jplpro.Jpl.Nasa.Gov!harvard!vax.ftp.com!wjr@csvax.caltech.edu (Bill Rust) Quite frankly, I don't think that for sale mail should be in this group. This group is for information about PCs, not unloading them. Saying that short things are allowed is the same as saying anything is allowed, because it is up to the discretion of the seller to decide whether something is short or not and you know how that goes. Further, if as has been suggested, sites are dropping this group because they feel that too many sales notices have appeared here, that hurts everybody. Since there are forsale groups, only there should ads appear. Bill Rust (wjr@ftp.com) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!uunet.UU.NET!ssbell!amperif!dan@csvax.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 15:19 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 14:26:59 CDT From: elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!uunet.UU.NET!amperif!dan@csvax.caltech.edu (Dan Mehlhorn) Tim, I, for one, would like to see sale items in the for-sale or wanted groups only. I look to this group for PC issues. Dan Mehlhorn -- Every child deserves a home of his own. - Harry Holt Dan Mehlhorn uucp: dan@amperif.uucp All comments are my own. No one else should be blamed for them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------YES From pegasus!psrc@att.att.com Wed Aug 9 15:40 PDT 1989 From: pegasus!psrc@att.att.com Date: Wed, 9 Aug 89 15:59 EDT I think *short* for-sale items are okay in comp.sys.ibm.pc, with a limited geographic distribution (only within the state or the company). Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories att!pegasus!psrc, psrc@pegasus.att.com, AT&T Mail !psrchisholm I'm not speaking for the company, I'm just speaking my mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From 15340TDD%MSU.BITNET@Hamlet.caltech.edu Wed Aug 9 18:04 PDT 1989 Date: Wed, 09 Aug 89 09:17:36 EDT From: 15340TDD%MSU.BITNET@Hamlet.caltech.edu (Tom Davis) I vote NO. This only adds clutter and with the amount of traffic already, it isn't appropriate. It's not surprising that people want to post these things here, since there is so much traffic (why put up a billboard on a deadend street?) but I rather dislike it. Start another forsale conference if needed, but there are a couple already floating around... Just my $.02! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From <@sunkisd.cs.concordia.ca:marcap@concour.cs.concordia.ca> Wed Aug 9 23:39 PDT 1989 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 89 1:18:18 EDT From: marcap@concour.cs.concordia.ca changing to comp.ibm.sys.pc.forsale would be a good idea. These for sale notices are useless to the whole world, and the distribution is not restricted. I think the best thing would be to have distribution automatically set to a small area unless over rided. I really don't care if George in California is selling his XT, it is not going to come up here. Marc Pawlowsky ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!dinl!noren@csvax.caltech.edu Thu Aug 10 10:50 PDT 1989 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 89 10:15:09 mdt From: elroy!dinl!noren@csvax.caltech.edu (Charles Noren) NO SALE ITEMS IN comp.sys.ibm.pc. ^^ The comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale is a good idea, anything to reduce the traffic of sale items in comp.sys.ibm.pc! -- Chuck Noren NET: ncar!dinl!noren US-MAIL: Martin Marietta I&CS, MS XL8058, P.O. Box 1260, Denver, CO 80201-1260 Phone: (303) 971-7930 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------YES From elroy!ames!lll-winken!att!mtune!holin!doc@csvax.caltech.edu Thu Aug 10 12:47 PDT 1989 Date: 10 Aug 89 14:14:16 EDT (Thu) From: elroy!ames!holin.att.com!doc@csvax.caltech.edu (David Mundhenk) I personally think that one time postings of personal PC related items for sale or wanted should be accepted and even encouraged here, since this buying/selling helps keep us all happy with our hardware/software environment. I recently got flamed by a self-congratulating fellow who told me to go read the newuser info. I see no specific references to not posting for sale items in this group. I think it IS appropriate, as it would be to post a horse for sale in rec.equestrian. I believe the majority of us are benefitting from these postings, if for nothing else for the knowledge of what equipment is going for. That's my $.02 worth. Thanks for listening. Dave Mundhenk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: EMAIL: ...!att!holin!doc | "I can't complain but | /^, VOICE: (201)-580-4943 | sometimes I still do"| / } _, , , __ #include <std.disclaimer> | - Joe Walsh | /_./ (_l |/ <~_ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!ginosko.UUCP!uunet!jtsv16!geac!censor!utzoo!utgpu!watmath!watkin1.waterloo.edu!bee@csvax. Thu Aug 10 23:58 PDT 1989 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 89 09:43:38 EDT From: "Bill E. Eickmeier" <elroy!ginosko!uunet!watmath!watkin1!bee@csvax.caltech.edu> I vote NO. >Please send me mail, and I will summarize. Also, would people be >interested in comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale as an alternative? That's a much better alternative than putting stuff in comp.sys.ibm.pc itself, but I imagine there is already somewhere else where these 'for sale' postings should go. If I were interested in using 'for sale' stuff I would find out what the appropriate group is... Bill E. Eickmeier, Kinesiology, U. Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1 UUCP: ...!{allegra|clyde|linus|utzoo|decvax|uunet}!watmath!watkin1!bee Canadian: bee@watkin1.uwaterloo.ca BITNET: bee@watdcs Most others: bee@watkin1.waterloo.{edu|cdn} BELL:1-519-885-1211(x2972) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------NO From elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!uunet.UU.NET!ncrcan!ziebmef!stephen@csvax.caltech.edu Sat Aug 12 22:20 PDT 1989 Date: 11 Aug 89 11:00:18 EDT (Fri) From: elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!uunet.UU.NET!ziebmef!stephen@csvax.caltech.edu (Stephen M. Dunn) I vote that short for sale messages should not appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc for the following reason: - If we allow short messages, inevitably the people who are trying to sell stuff will have an idea of "short" something like the following: Well, if I keep it under a page or two, it's short enough while the rest of us (myself, anyway) have the following idea: Short means no more than 6-7 lines - Therefore, if we allow short messages, many of them won't be that short. - Also, the idea of "short" will be forgotten in a few months' time and we'll be back to the same situation we're in now. As for comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale, I'm not sure there's a need for it, but I'm neutral to the idea (after all, it's easy enough to unsubscribe to any groups one wishes to ignore). Regards, Steve --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Stephen M. Dunn stephen@ziebmef.UUCP ! DISCLAIMER: Who'd ever ! !---------------------------------------------------! claim such dumb ideas? ! ! I have become comfortably numb ... ! I sure as heck wouldn't ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------YES From elroy!ames!mailrus!sharkey!atanasoff!jwright@csvax.caltech.edu Sat Aug 12 23:58 PDT 1989 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 89 21:31:47 CDT From: elroy!ames!mailrus!sharkey!atanasoff!jwright@csvax.caltech.edu (Jim Wright) Message-Id: <8908110231.AA04363@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu> YES to comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale! :-) -- Jim Wright jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
davidsen@sungod.crd.ge.com (ody) (08/15/89)
In article <11590@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes: | Now, on to the vote. I received 20 replies (including one from | myself). Should FOR SALE items appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc? | | YES: 6 | NO: 14 | | How should we interpret this? If the net were a strict democracy, | then nothing could be posted. (If somebody asked me if postings about | word processors should be allowed, I would respond NO simply because I | am not interested in talking about word processors.) | My conclusion about the above numbers, then, is that there is | sufficient interest in FOR SALE postings that it should continue. I'd | like to suggest a few rules: My conclusion is that you had no interest in an actual survey, and your conclusions are totally at odds with the result. People who want to buy things can read the for.sale group. This group is not for selling things, or discussing selling things, it's for PC discussion. Replies redirected to the correct group. bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM) {uunet | philabs}!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
ahw@notecnirp.Princeton.EDU (Arthur Watson) (08/16/89)
In article <11590@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes: >I recently posted a request for votes regarding posting of FOR SALE >items to comp.sys.ibm.pc. > >Now, on to the vote. I received 20 replies (including one from >myself). Should FOR SALE items appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc? > > YES: 6 > NO: 14 > >How should we interpret this? Well, I read the included replies and it sure looked like YES: 4 NO: 16 to me! Perhaps the two "yes to comp.sys.ibm.pc.forsale" which seem fairly clear NO votes were considered yes. Of course since Mr Kay interprets 6 yes and 14 no votes to mean a result of yes for the net, he'd probably do the same with 4 yes and 16 no. :-) -Arthur
wek@point.UUCP (Bill Kuykendall) (08/16/89)
> My conclusion is that you had no interest in an actual survey, and >your conclusions are totally at odds with the result. People who want to My thought's exactly. My 'NO' vote didn't get a chance to even get counted... Bill Kuykendall ...ddsw1!point!wek
rogers@orion.SRC.Honeywell.COM (Brynn Rogers) (08/16/89)
I have noticed that of all the for sale adds I see in this group, Almost never have I seen somebody selling something used that could not be bought cheaper new.(with a little hunting) Typical examples: a panasonic 1124 printer used for $350 , while new ones are selling for $320 or less. A 80287-6 that someone paid over $200 for, trying to dump it for $120. I just ordered a brand new one yesterday for $119. [Telemart] I can think of a couple exceptions, a Maxtor XT-2190 selling for $750. I am sure that one was snatched within hours of the posting. One exception was somebody selling mice for less than wholesale, but I saw a followup from someone who bought one and a) it was not the same mouse that was advertised, b) it had no documentation, and c) he could never reach the seller again. My opinion: Unless you are offering a REALLY good deal, not just trying to dump something you don't want for the price you bought it for, Don't Post It Here! Also, Buyers Beware! Brynn Rogers Honeywell S&RC rogers@src.honeywell.com work 612-782-7577 home 874-7737
jbjones@marlin.NOSC.MIL (John B. Jones) (08/16/89)
In article <11590@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes: | Now, on to the vote. I received 20 replies (including one from | myself). Should FOR SALE items appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc? | | YES: 6 | NO: 14 | | How should we interpret this? If the net were a strict democracy, | then nothing could be posted. (If somebody asked me if postings about | My conclusion about the above numbers, then, is that there is | sufficient interest in FOR SALE postings that it should continue. I'd That's crazy. There are more than twice as many no votes as yes votes. I think you're shielding your eyes from results you don't like. There are groups for selling things; I don't read them because I don't want to buy anything right now. I read this group to find out more about the fine points of ibm pc systems. That's what the name implies. If I want to find out how much they cost I can go to a forsale group and get that information. Posting a for-sale message to this group is the ear mark of being out of touch with group goals; only two people would do it: a disoriented new user, or a selfish person who wants visability at the price of consideration. In essence, think of the group as a whole.... jbjones@marlin.nosc.mil DISCLAIMER:I set forth these convictions as my own alone.
jwi@lzfme.att.com (Jim Winer @ AT&T, Middletown, NJ) (08/17/89)
| Timothy L. Kay writes: | | | Now, on to the vote. I received 20 replies (including one from | | myself). Should FOR SALE items appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc? | | | | YES: 6 | | NO: 14 | | | | How should we interpret this? If the net were a strict democracy, | | then nothing could be posted. (If somebody asked me if postings about | | | My conclusion about the above numbers, then, is that there is | | sufficient interest in FOR SALE postings that it should continue. I'd | | John B. Jones writes: | | That's crazy. There are more than twice as many no votes as yes votes. | I think you're shielding your eyes from results you don't like. There | are groups for selling things; I don't read them because I don't want to | buy anything right now.... You forgot to count the 15,000 or more don't care votes. Most of us would rather hear about PC stuff here than wade through the the used cars, houses in New Jersey, Macintosh and Atari stuff in the regular FOR SALE groups. All we really need is a large FOR SALE and the type of item in the subject line. Jim Winer ..!lzfme!jwi (Please don't email, unable to reply.) Those persons who advocate censorship offend my religion. Upuaut: a wolf-headed Egyptian deity | Voodoo: the art of sticking ideas assigned as Guidance System | into people and watching for the Barque of Ra. | them bleed. The opinions expressed here are not necessarily
fyl@fylz.UUCP (Phil Hughes) (08/18/89)
In article <1569@lzfme.att.com>, jwi@lzfme.att.com (Jim Winer @ AT&T, Middletown, NJ) writes: [ read the previous stuff that I don't think is necessary to include] > You forgot to count the 15,000 or more don't care votes. Most of us > would rather hear about PC stuff here than wade through the the used > cars, houses in New Jersey, Macintosh and Atari stuff in the regular > FOR SALE groups. Wrong! I have been ignoring the subject because there is already enough useless stuff in this group. I am not a don't care. If you really can't handle looking at car ads then maybe we need a comp.forsale group. If I am looking for something to buy, I read misc.forsale. If I want some technical information, I read comp groups. As per your suggestion, put PC in the heading in the forsale group and you can skip the ones that say Toyota. -- Phil Hughes -- FYL -- 8315 Lk City Wy NE -- Suite 207 -- Seattle, WA 98115 {amc-gw,uunet!pilchuck}!ssc!fylz!fyl
doc@holin.ATT.COM (David Mundhenk) (08/24/89)
In article <1197@marlin.NOSC.MIL>, jbjones@marlin.NOSC.MIL (John B. Jones) writes: > In article <11590@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes: > > | Now, on to the vote. I received 20 replies (including one from > | myself). Should FOR SALE items appear in comp.sys.ibm.pc? > | > | YES: 6 > | NO: 14 > | > Posting a for-sale message to this group is the ear mark of being out of > touch with group goals; only two people would do it: a disoriented new > user, or a selfish person who wants visability at the price of > consideration. In essence, think of the group as a whole.... > I was one of the original "YES" votes, but I've changed my mind. I like this newsgroup, but even WITHOUT for sale postings it's almost impossible to keep up with it. I personally will not post any more "FOR SALE" articles here, and I apologize for the few that I already have. This is a very good forum for help, discussions, and warnings - let's not choke it to death. Dave Mundhenk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: EMAIL: ...!att!holin!doc | "I can't complain but | /^, VOICE: (201)-580-4943 | sometimes I still do"| / } _, , , __ #include <std.disclaimer> | - Joe Walsh | /_./ (_l |/ <~_ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: EMAIL: ...!att!holin!doc | "I can't complain but | /^, VOICE: (201)-580-4943 | sometimes I still do"| / } _, , , __ #include <std.disclaimer> | - Joe Walsh | /_./ (_l |/ <~_