firewind@xroads.UUCP (Tom Parker) (09/09/89)
I was following the comments on the problem with ELS II and running dos programs. Whenever a dos program was exited, command.com couldn't be found and the workstation shell would crash. Does anybody know what causes this? I set up a search path for command.com and all sorts of stuff with no result. I was able to figure out a work around... If you load another copy of command.com as mentioned by someone earlier it works. Basically I would load a copy right after loading the netware shell. If I did it before logging in, all the search paths would be screwed up. If I did it after, all the search paths would be fine, and if used with the /p parameter, it wouldn't have to be loaded for that session. Anybody really know how this is all working? Is it safe? I was also wondering if anyone was interested in starting an echo devoted to Novell networks. If you're interested, I can be contacted at 1:114/54. -- \ / C r o s s r o a d s C o m m u n i c a t i o n s /\ (602) 941-2005 300|1200 Baud 24 hrs/day / \ hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!xroads!firewind
cook@sybil.cs.buffalo.edu (John M. Cook) (09/11/89)
In article <836@xroads.UUCP> firewind@xroads.UUCP (Tom Parker) writes: >I was following the comments on the problem with ELS II and running dos >programs. Whenever a dos program was exited, command.com couldn't be found >and the workstation shell would crash. Does anybody know what causes this? >I set up a search path for command.com and all sorts of stuff with no result. >I was also wondering if anyone was interested in starting an echo devoted to >Novell networks. If you're interested, I can be contacted at 1:114/54. Anyone running Novell ELS II please respond if any of the problems sound familiar. Even if you're running a different version we would like your input. As far as an echo for Novell networks, I think it's a great idea. Novell software support is expensive and long term discussion with their tech support can cost thousands of dollars. Especially since most of what I'm doing is trying to make software not designed to run on Networks, able to run on Novell. John M. Cook cook@cs.Buffalo.EDU
mrichey@orion.cf.uci.edu (Mike Richey) (09/11/89)
In article <836@xroads.UUCP> firewind@xroads.UUCP (Tom Parker) writes: > >I was following the comments on the problem with ELS II and running dos >programs. Whenever a dos program was exited, command.com couldn't be found >and the workstation shell would crash. Does anybody know what causes this? >I set up a search path for command.com and all sorts of stuff with no result. Okay, I know this sounds really dumb, but this has worked fro me and many others, here goes: In the autoexec.bat file of the network boot disk, don't set the DOS prompt command, (Many people set it to PROMPT $P$G ) Don't set it in the System Login Script, because it will be executed when someone logs in on the File Server Work Station. If you wish to set the prompt at the FS/WS, either key it in by hand, or set up a batch file with the prompt command in it (I call mine prmpt.bat) and DON'T make any reference to it in the autoexec.bat file on the server boot diskette. The other item is to not set the comspec to a netware device. Leave the COMSPEC as COMSPEC=A:\COMMAND.COM. If you don't have the boot disk in the server floppy, DOS will ask you to insert it. This is a heck of a lot better than rebooting the fileserver without downing it first. Does Novell know of the problem? Yes, they've known of it since the earliest day of Non dedicated Netware (2.0a) like since 1987. They keep improving the situation, but have not seemed to get it right yet. Be glad tou're not running ELS I. > >I was able to figure out a work around... If you load another copy of >command.com as mentioned by someone earlier it works. Basically I would load >a copy right after loading the netware shell. If I did it before logging in, >all the search paths would be screwed up. If I did it after, all the search >paths would be fine, and if used with the /p parameter, it wouldn't have to >be loaded for that session. Anybody really know how this is all working? Is >it safe? Yes, it's safe, just slow. > >I was also wondering if anyone was interested in starting an echo devoted to >Novell networks. If you're interested, I can be contacted at 1:114/54. I would be interested in participating, but I don't have a BBS running, and unfortunaetly, Networks are not in the genera interest of PC BBSs. Good Luck. Michael S. Richey Network and TeleCommunications Services University of California, Irvine 342 Computer Science Irvine, CA 92717 Voice: (714) 856-8374 InterNet: mrichey@orion.cf.uci.edu BitNet: MRichey@UCI
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (09/12/89)
>----- >Response 2 of 2 (5420) by mrichey at orion.cf.uci.edu on Sun 10 Sep 89 21:38 >[Mike Richey] >(57 lines) > >In article <836@xroads.UUCP> firewind@xroads.UUCP (Tom Parker) writes: >> >>I was following the comments on the problem with ELS II and running dos >>programs. Whenever a dos program was exited, command.com couldn't be found >>and the workstation shell would crash. Does anybody know what causes this? >>I set up a search path for command.com and all sorts of stuff with no result. >Okay, I know this sounds really dumb, but this has worked fro me and many >others, here goes: > >In the autoexec.bat file of the network boot disk, don't set the >DOS prompt command, (Many people set it to PROMPT $P$G ) >Don't set it in the System Login Script, because it will be executed >when someone logs in on the File Server Work Station. If you wish to >set the prompt at the FS/WS, either key it in by hand, or set up >a batch file with the prompt command in it (I call mine prmpt.bat) >and DON'T make any reference to it in the autoexec.bat file on the >server boot diskette. I take it that this means that you can't do this from a workstation either?! >The other item is to not set the comspec to a netware device. Leave >in the server floppy, DOS will ask you to insert it. This is a heck of >a lot better than rebooting the fileserver without downing it first. > >Does Novell know of the problem? Yes, they've known of it since the >earliest day of Non dedicated Netware (2.0a) like since 1987. They >keep improving the situation, but have not seemed to get it right yet. >Be glad tou're not running ELS I. (FLAME ON MAXIMUM INTENSITY) How can a company such as Novell sell TRASH like this? We are considering using their products, but this kind of crap is enough to make us reconsider. There is simply no excuse for this kind of problem. They've known about it since 1987, eh? And it is STILL not fixed? So the bottom line is that a ND server is just a wish, and that you had better use a dedicated server, eh? Nice piece of (misleading) advertising they do with that so-called "non-dedicated" baloney. Does this ALSO happen with workstations, or is only the server affected? If this is also a problem on workstations, then the product is completely unusable -- our users will not deal with that kind of restriction. What ELSE doesn't work in ELS II? Should I just tell a client of ours that is considering an ELS installation to not bother, and use something like Xenix-net if they insist on doing a network? At least with Xenix-net I can talk to SCO if there are problems, and they will actually try to fix them. One other thing -- I tried to talk to Novell a while back about some configuration issues. They wanted $200 AN HOUR to talk to me on the phone -- BEFORE a sale! That is preposterous! I bet they want the same amount of money to fix bugs, too. Is there ANYONE out there in the PC Marketplace with a reasonable file-server solution for LANs that works, and won't break the bank? Is there a solution for those who want to network say a half-dozen systems, and can't afford multi-thousands in support on a yearly basis -- they simply want something that WORKS and that is it? Does such a company exist? The more I hear about Novell, the more I dislike them. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
mrichey@orion.cf.uci.edu (Mike Richey) (09/12/89)
In article <[250c7428:5420.3]comp.ibmpc;1@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >>----- >>Response 2 of 2 (5420) by mrichey at orion.cf.uci.edu on Sun 10 Sep 89 21:38 > >>[Mike Richey] >>(57 lines) >> >>In article <836@xroads.UUCP> firewind@xroads.UUCP (Tom Parker) writes: >>> >>>I was following the comments on the problem with ELS II and running dos >>>programs. Whenever a dos program was exited, command.com couldn't be found >>>and the workstation shell would crash. Does anybody know what causes this? >>>I set up a search path for command.com and all sorts of stuff with no result. > >>Okay, I know this sounds really dumb, but this has worked fro me and many >>others, here goes: >> >>In the autoexec.bat file of the network boot disk, don't set the >>DOS prompt command, (Many people set it to PROMPT $P$G ) >>Don't set it in the System Login Script, because it will be executed >>when someone logs in on the File Server Work Station. If you wish to >>set the prompt at the FS/WS, either key it in by hand, or set up >>a batch file with the prompt command in it (I call mine prmpt.bat) >>and DON'T make any reference to it in the autoexec.bat file on the >>server boot diskette. > >I take it that this means that you can't do this from a workstation either?! > >>The other item is to not set the comspec to a netware device. Leave >>in the server floppy, DOS will ask you to insert it. This is a heck of >>a lot better than rebooting the fileserver without downing it first. >> >>Does Novell know of the problem? Yes, they've known of it since the >>earliest day of Non dedicated Netware (2.0a) like since 1987. They >>keep improving the situation, but have not seemed to get it right yet. >>Be glad tou're not running ELS I. > >(FLAME ON MAXIMUM INTENSITY) > >How can a company such as Novell sell TRASH like this? We are considering >using their products, but this kind of crap is enough to make us reconsider. >There is simply no excuse for this kind of problem. I don't work for Novell, but - If you are deciding on a Netware server, Don't purchase the ELS II, it's limited in its abilities. Like you only get 8 valid connections. This does not mean 8 people logged in, but 8 stations that have the network shell loaded. There are ways around this like using a netware version of mark and release. But face it, 8 connections only. BTW, VAPs (valued added processes) take a connection. so if you have the Mac VAP loaded and BTrieve being used that takes, not two, but three attachements. Secondly, The only bridge that's aloud is an asynch bridge. > >They've known about it since 1987, eh? And it is STILL not fixed? So the >bottom line is that a ND server is just a wish, and that you had better use >a dedicated server, eh? Nice piece of (misleading) advertising they do with >that so-called "non-dedicated" baloney. No, a non-dedicated server is possible. Yes, there are a few rules, and be glad someone has responded before you paid the bucks to Novell to find out. It's not a bunch of baloney, but any one spending the money on a file server, should spend the extra money and buy at LEAST advanced Netware. It's forums like this where one can ask questions and get experienced responses. I can't make excuses for Novell, but please reconsider the version of Netware your going to purchase. Look, Novell introduced a product because of Market demand. All companys do this. It's too bad that it has problems, but Non dedicated ELS II is not the NOS to get. > >Does this ALSO happen with workstations, or is only the server affected? If >this is also a problem on workstations, then the product is completely >unusable -- our users will not deal with that kind of restriction. > Just the File Server workstation. Besides the prompt command can be set. Just not in the autoexec.bat file of the file server boot diskette, or the system login script (because by default the login script would invoke the prompt command.) I setup a batch file called prmpt.bat that has one line in it prompt $p$g . What's the big deal? Yes, it's a minor inconvenience. But, if you decide on ND Netware, this is what will happen. Advice - Run the server for what it does best, serving files. Not as a workstation. There are other inherent problems with ND operation. That is not really Netware's fault, but the design of the 80286. When your as the FS/WS, and you go to DOS, the file server most switch between (80286) real and protected mode. This slows down everything, server operations, DOS operations, etc. Is this a problem with Netware? It's a problem, but look how long it's taked for OS/2 to really fly, because of the design of the 80286. I can say more, but not now. >What ELSE doesn't work in ELS II? Should I just tell a client of ours that >is considering an ELS installation to not bother, and use something like >Xenix-net if they insist on doing a network? At least with Xenix-net I can >talk to SCO if there are problems, and they will actually try to fix them. > Yes, Novell charges, so does 3COM and Banyan. My experience has been that NOS companys don't sell to end users or dealers, they sell to distributors. Hey, Netware is not uncomplicated, you may very well need the help of someone for your first installation. Pick your dealer carefully, get a list of clients that have used the dealer and ask them how good the dealer is. >One other thing -- I tried to talk to Novell a while back about some >configuration issues. They wanted $200 AN HOUR to talk to me on the phone >-- BeforRE a sale! That is preposterous! I bet they want the same amount of >money to fix bugs, too. > You called the 1-800-Lanswer number, that is the Tech Support. Tech Support charges, see response above. IBM the makers of the the PC, PS2, etc, won't talk to you at all! for any amount. Call your dealer they'll tell you. What can I say, I'm not defending them, believe me, I have my gripes with Novell, I'm an authorized dealer. I've spent $1200.00 in authorized training class fees to become authorized. You'd think they'd talk to me Huh, HAHH! What's your visa number. Let me say one thing however. If you recently purchased Netware, installed it and are having trouble. You're aloud a phone call to Novell, and they will help you out free of charge. For the items discussed in that one phone call. You have to push them some, because they don't like it. But they'll talk to you. But choose you topics carefully. If you're serious about netware, and supporting it, whether it be your the system administrator or what have you. Subscribe to compuserve, there is a Novell software and novell hardware forum there. The connect time is minimal, you can ask your question nd logout. Your answer will be online shortly. There is Novell employees that frequent it, and sysops are known througt out the world for their expertise. >Is there ANYONE out there in the PC Marketplace with a reasonable >file-server solution for LANs that works, and won't break the bank? Is >there a solution for those who want to network say a half-dozen systems, and >can't afford multi-thousands in support on a yearly basis -- they simply >want something that WORKS and that is it? Does such a company exist? > >The more I hear about Novell, the more I dislike them. > It's easy to hear the negative things. Once you experience what Netware has to offer, and of course what they don't offer, you should make your decision. There are very large sites that have netware servers. You could look at Lantastic. There's one called CBIS that's also very good. It uses Netbios for the network cards. I don't have the number handy but I can post later if you like. good luck which ever path you take.... happy trails. Michael S. Richey InterNet: mrichey@orion.cf.uci.edu BITNET: mrichey@UCI Voice: (714) 856-8374 University of California, Irvine Network and Telecommunications Services 342 Computer Science Irvine, CA 92717
jim@jose.uucp (Jim) (09/13/89)
Sorry to post, but I am having problems mailing right now. You mention that your programs are not finding command.com and crash after running. I had similar problems running a novell network. Something that actually worked for me was to force the comspec. set comspec = f:\somewhere\command.com Put it in the users login script if evenyone might be running different versions of dos, or put it in the system login script if and only if everyone is running the EXACT same version of dos. Not just a 3.3 or whatever, but it must be the same MAKE of the version. Also, just a note: I had some problems, actually alot of problems on the network with IBM's MS-DOS ver 3.2 first release. Another things to watch for. You can do stuff to loose a drive mapping. Example. If you have your comspec set for f:\dos\command.com, and then in your activities you change to another drive, lets say g: If you then logout from g:, that will be your prompt. It will not see an f: Remember this, because it then will not be able to reach your f:\anything, and command.com will be inaccessable. (Of corse, if you logout of novell, you can not get at anything except login, so just watch for those ideas).
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (09/14/89)
Please note that these problems are with *non-dedicated* servers. There aren't any problems with dedicated servers. We use Advanced Netware and haven't had any of these problems. And in my opinion, a non-dedicated server should only be considered in cases of *extreme* poverty. You don't dare have anybody but the "expert" users using a machine that is a non-dedicated server. -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters." -- Solomon Short
cook@sybil.cs.buffalo.edu (John M. Cook) (09/15/89)
The last article created another question for me. Can the Novell Network Users reading this tell me what version of DOS is being run on their machines. Include the brand, IBM, MSDOS, etc. If you don't know what version you're running, next time you're at a DOS prompt type: ver This will list the Manufacture and version Then mail me the results. If there is a pattern I'll post the results. Thank You. John M. Cook
cs4g6ag@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Stephen M. Dunn) (09/15/89)
In article <1670@bucket.UUCP> leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: >Please note that these problems are with *non-dedicated* servers. There >aren't any problems with dedicated servers. >We use Advanced Netware and haven't had any of these problems. And in my >opinion, a non-dedicated server should only be considered in cases of >*extreme* poverty. You don't dare have anybody but the "expert" users >using a machine that is a non-dedicated server. We used SFT Netware 286 V2.15 where I worked this past summer. There was only ever one program I ever had problems with. Originally, it was because my COMSPEC didn't point to a valid COMMAND.COM (this had nothing to do with the network); however, even after I put a COMSPEC= into the AUTOEXEC, I would very occasionally get an INVALID COMMAND.COM; SYSTEM HALTED error even though COMSPEC pointed to the very same copy of COMMAND.COM which was used at boot- time. I never figured this one out. -- Stephen M. Dunn cs4g6ag@maccs.McMaster.CA ********************************************************************** <std_disclaimer.h> = "\nI'm only an undergraduate!!!\n"; "VM is like an orgasm: the less you have to fake, the better." - S.C.
jim@jose.uucp (Jim) (09/16/89)
John M. Cook writes: > > The last article created another question for me. Can the > Novell Network Users reading this tell me what version of DOS is > being run on their machines. Include the brand, IBM, MSDOS, etc. > If you don't know what version you're running, next time you're > at a DOS prompt type: ver > This will list the Manufacture and version > Then mail me the results. If there is a pattern I'll post the > results. I had good success with: IBM 3.1, IBM 3.3, Zenith 3.21 and the type you get at your local clone dealer ver 3.1. I have used these with Netware 286 and ELS. ELS has some other situations that bother me, but these versions of dos seemed to work with it too.
slimer@trsvax.UUCP (09/17/89)
As an advid Novell Network user, system operator, installer, etc. I can say that many problems being noted a related to not reading the manuals. It is best to not to hard code in a version of command.com into any workstation login script. You should use the novell supplied identifiers to access different versions of DOS. By this I mean that you should create a directory structure similiar to the following: sys:\public\dos\v2.11 sys:\public\dos\v3.00 sys:\public\dos\v3.20 sys:\public\dos\v3.30 etc. In this manner, you will have four+ versions of command.com on the server. From this point, in the login script you should use the command DOS SET COMSPEC=SYS:\PUBLIC\DOS\%OS_VERSION\COMMAND.COM Aha! Now we have a workstation independent comspec statement that will work for any version of DOS that is out on the network. You must be careful to have a version of command.com for each version of DOS being run on the network. I would also recommend that the non-dedicated server comspec be set to a local drive somewhere and not to the network. My reason is simple, if you do log out from the network you will lose your drive mappings, as noted earlier by another writer. At this moment, your novell network comspec statement will be invalid. Oh No! Suddenly, your non-dedicated workstation needs command.com, where to go? If you leave this workstations comspec to a local drive, then the comspec statement will always be valid. It is also nice to have this setup for using search drives like, MAP S2:=SYS:\PUBLIC\DOS\%OS_VERSION Now you don't need a full copy of DOS on every workstation. EMAIL me directly for more assistance. Oh! BTW, this information is from my home network. **************************************************************************** * Thank You, texbell!letni!rwsys!trsvax!slimer * * Bill "Judge Green is a Bell Buster!" - ComputerWorld * * George W. Pogue, 1300 Two Tandy, Fort Worth, TX. 76102 (817) 390-2871 * ****************************************************************************