jbudet@oakhill.UUCP (Jim Budet) (09/08/89)
A friend of mine is considering the purchase of an HP Desk Jet to connect to an AT compatible. We have come up with the following questions/concerns with the printer that I was hoping could be answered here. I am also interested in general comments and experiences people have had with the printer. 1. We have seen stores selling the Desk Jet and also the Desk Jet +. What enhancements does the "+" give over the older model? Is is worth buying the older machine for a cheaper price? 2. Does the printer work via a parallel or serial port? 3. The primary uses for the printer will be word processing and graphics. What "extras" will be needed to make the printer truely useful? 4. How well does the printer work with popular programs such as Lotus 123, dBase IV, MS Word 5.0 and WordPerfect? If a program does not directly support the printer what can you do? Thanks =============================================================================== Jim Budet Usenet: oakhill!jbudet@cs.utexas.edu Motorola Microprocessor Products Group Compuserve: 73177,171 Austin, Texas Phone: (512) 891-3175 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Motorola does not necessarily share the opinions expressed in this message. ===============================================================================
cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (09/09/89)
In article <2379@pooh.oakhill.UUCP>, jbudet@oakhill.UUCP (Jim Budet) writes: > A friend of mine is considering the purchase of an HP Desk Jet to > connect to an AT compatible. We have come up with the following > questions/concerns with the printer that I was hoping could be answered > here. I am also interested in general comments and experiences people > have had with the printer. > > 2. Does the printer work via a parallel or serial port? Yes, both. > 3. The primary uses for the printer will be word processing and > graphics. What "extras" will be needed to make the printer truely > useful? Font cartridges. The default fonts on the original DeskJet are fine for program listings (all monospaced), but you are going to want some proportional fonts. > 4. How well does the printer work with popular programs such as Lotus 123, > dBase IV, MS Word 5.0 and WordPerfect? If a program does not directly > support the printer what can you do? > > Jim Budet Usenet: oakhill!jbudet@cs.utexas.edu I've used a DeskJet with MS Word 5.0, and it works fine, but then again, I haven't tried it with any proportional fonts. In theory, the DeskJet should work the same as an HP LaserJet in portrait mode. In fact, at least one AutoCAD user around here found that the LaserJet driver didn't work with the DeskJet -- the last few pixels printed on the second page, not on the first page. We never figured out why (nor did we try hard). -- Clayton E. Cramer {pyramid,pixar,tekbspa}!optilink!cramer "No man is an island" is the beginning of the end of personal freedom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer? You must be kidding! No company would hold opinions like mine!
fyl@fylz.UUCP (Phil Hughes) (09/09/89)
In article <2379@pooh.oakhill.UUCP>, jbudet@oakhill.UUCP (Jim Budet) writes: > 1. We have seen stores selling the Desk Jet and also the Desk Jet +. > What enhancements does the "+" give over the older model? Is is worth > buying the older machine for a cheaper price? The "+" is a lot faster. If you are in a hurry, it is worth it. > 2. Does the printer work via a parallel or serial port? Yes. It works with either and will even figure out which one you are using. > 3. The primary uses for the printer will be word processing and > graphics. What "extras" will be needed to make the printer truely > useful? Nothing unless you want to use funny fonts. It works out of the box with about anything (with an excellent manual and software included). If you want fonts other than Courier you will either need to get font cartridges or something like jetroff - a troff to Laserjet 2 filter that also works with the DeskJet. The problem with the DeskJet and jetroff is it rasterizes the complete page and sends it so it takes forever to print but it works and the output looks great. > 4. How well does the printer work with popular programs such as Lotus 123, > dBase IV, MS Word 5.0 and WordPerfect? If a program does not directly > support the printer what can you do? I have only seen it with Word (I just sold it to a friend of mine and bought a laser because of the troff/jetroff speed problem described above). It came with a driver for word and works great. He was impressed. -- Phil Hughes -- FYL -- 8315 Lk City Wy NE -- Suite 207 -- Seattle, WA 98115 {amc-gw,uunet!pilchuck}!ssc!fylz!fyl
jsa00564@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (09/09/89)
/* Written 12:39 pm Sep 7, 1989 by jbudet@oakhill.UUCP in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.ibm.pc */ /* ---------- "HP Desk Jet - Opinions" ---------- */ >A friend of mine is considering the purchase of an HP Desk Jet to >connect to an AT compatible. We have come up with the following >questions/concerns with the printer that I was hoping could be answered >here. I am also interested in general comments and experiences people >have had with the printer. >1. We have seen stores selling the Desk Jet and also the Desk Jet +. >What enhancements does the "+" give over the older model? Is is worth >buying the older machine for a cheaper price? The Deskjet Plus has extra built in fonts, that requires a cartridge on the Deskjet. The extra fonts are 3 Courier Landscape fonts, and I think one extra Landscape Courier... Other differences between the DJ and DJ+ are paper handling speed (DJ+ is twice as fast), and total memory capacity (DJ- 128K cartridge (can use two??), DJ+ - 128 or 256K carts (max 512K). This printer memory is used only for downloaded fonts, not for imaging. The printer will print a full page at 300dpi with no extra memory. >2. Does the printer work via a parallel or serial port? Both are standard. >3. The primary uses for the printer will be word processing and >graphics. What "extras" will be needed to make the printer truely >useful? At least one 256K cart, the Times Roman proportional cart., Times Roman/ Helvetica soft fonts, and the Epson FX-80 emulation cart. ... This is my setup, and works well.. >4. How w >4. How well does the printer work with popular programs such as Lotus 123, >dBase IV, MS Word 5.0 and WordPerfect? If a program does not directly >support the printer what can you do? I use MS Word 5.0 a lot, and the printer is well supported, soft fonts and all. I had to Merge two different .PRD's to get a "custom" list of avail. fonts, but it works out well. BTW, Word does not supply the Deskjet Plus PRD's. I got them from Compuserve.. (MS supplemental printer disk #4) For 1-2-3, I just use the HP Laserjet printer driver, and graphs print just fine... Don''t know about WP or dBase, but Windows does have a slight problem right now.. The current DJ+ driver (also on Compuserve) provides for most of the cartridges, but does not deal with soft fonts (you have to download them manually before entering Windows [drag!]). They SHOULD fix this, and I hope that the final driver will behave much like the HP Laserjet, giving a list of all the possible fonts, etc... In general, if a program does not support the DJ or DJ+, I first try the HP Laserjet driver. This usually works. If not, then I use the Epson emulation cart., and that ALWAYS works. Of course, the output quality is the same as an Epson dot matrix... >============================================================================== >Jim Budet Usenet: oakhill!jbudet@cs.utexas.edu >Motorola Microprocessor Products Group Compuserve: 73177,171 >Austin, Texas Phone: (512) 891-3175 >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Motorola does not necessarily share the opinions expressed in this message. ---------------------------------------- Jeff Autor jsa00564@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu "Help me, I'm an Engineering student!"
jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) (09/09/89)
In article <2379@pooh.oakhill.UUCP> jbudet@oakhill.UUCP (Jim Budet) writes: >1. We have seen stores selling the Desk Jet and also the Desk Jet +. >What enhancements does the "+" give over the older model? Is is worth >buying the older machine for a cheaper price? The DeskJet + is quite a bit faster than the standard DJ (I have the later) especially on graphics. Also, the + accepts more memory for downloadable fonts, etc. I also believe there are more font cartridges available for the +. >2. Does the printer work via a parallel or serial port? Both. >3. The primary uses for the printer will be word processing and >graphics. What "extras" will be needed to make the printer truely >useful? You will probably want at least one memory module. You may also want a font cartridge, although this all depends on how you want to use the printer and your software. Figure on probably $200 or more in add ons. >4. How well does the printer work with popular programs such as Lotus 123, >dBase IV, MS Word 5.0 and WordPerfect? If a program does not directly >support the printer what can you do? Of the software you mentioned, I use WordPerfect. It works wonderfully with the DJ (directly supported). GEM (from Digital Research) will sell you a DJ support diskette to install for $10 which will add support for the DJ printer. I suspect that many of the s/w vendors will do the same if they don't directly support the DJ in their product. -- ****** Views expressed herin are my own ******* Jim Burke - consultant 408) 734-9822 | I'll stop posting when they pry my jimb@Atherton.COM | cold, dead fingers from the smoking {decwrl,sun,hpda,pyramid}!athertn!jimb | keyboard.
ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Richard Ferris) (09/11/89)
I recently saw two sets of Deskjet output. ONe looked great, the other was kind of blurry. It looked like either the wrong paper had been used or too much ink came out. Has anyone noticed this as a common problem or was this just an isolated case? Richard T. Ferris ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu University of Pennsylvania
tjr@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (thomas.j.roberts) (09/11/89)
BEWARE: the DeskJet has problems with page-length, due to its inability to print on the last 1/2 inch of a page. If you simply cat (or type) a file to it (one that is merely a series of lines, no Form-Feeds). It will either: a) work fine, skipping the first and last 3 lines per page (Perf-skip mode on) b) print 63 lines on Page 1, 3 lines on Page 2, 63 lines on Page 3, 3 lines on page 4, etc... (Perf-skip mode off) While (a) might work for this case, if you then use it with a program that expects 66 lines per page (such as pr, troff, ...), the pages will quickly get out of sync. (b) is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. Why HP decided to print only 3 lines on every other page is beyond my comprehension - it's a lousy way to try to preserve page boundaries, especially since such programs usually don't care about page boundaries. I have written a UNIX/MS-DOS filter to do the following: On every page, preceed line 64 (if it exists) with a form-feed. If lines 64,65,66 exist and are blank, delete them. If lines 64,65,66 do not exist, they must have been deleted by a form-feed on input, so there is no problem. If there is a form-feed on line 1 (top of page), delete it. This algorithm allows me to leave the DeskJet in no-perforation-skip mode, and use any program without worrying about whether it outputs form-feeds or 66 blank lines to eject a page. Someday I will turn it into a device driver rather than a filter; for now, appropriate aliasing in ksh (UNIX) and CED (MS-DOS) solves most of my problems. Tom Roberts att!ihnet!tjr
fyl@ssc.UUCP (Phil Hughes) (09/11/89)
In article <14212@netnews.upenn.edu>, ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Richard Ferris) writes: > I recently saw two sets of Deskjet output. ONe looked great, the > other was kind of blurry. It looked like either the wrong paper > had been used or too much ink came out. Has anyone noticed this > as a common problem or was this just an isolated case? I would blame this on the paper. My DeskJet produced really nice output on quite a few types of xerography paper but the output was pretty bad on some papers. I have used both the HP cartridge ink and Scrip Jet Black (squirt it in the cartridge yourself) ink with comparable results. -- Phil Hughes, SSC, Inc. P.O. Box 55549, Seattle, WA 98155 (206)FOR-UNIX amc-gw!ssc!fyl or uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fyl or attmail!ssc!fyl
jsa00564@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (09/12/89)
/* Written 6:53 pm Sep 10, 1989 by ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.ibm.pc */ I recently saw two sets of Deskjet output. ONe looked great, the other was kind of blurry. It looked like either the wrong paper had been used or too much ink came out. Has anyone noticed this as a common problem or was this just an isolated case? Richard T. Ferris ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu University of Pennsylvania /* End of text from uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.ibm.pc */ Most likely the wrong type of paper. I have never noticed any smearing on good laser-printer or even on decent copier paper. However, using regular "computer paper" is a no-no.. The paper is made for dot-matrix printers, and will soak up the ink too much, and it becomes "fuzzy" (not really a good description, but, hey!) Also, if the printout has large graphics (large filled areas), then cheap paper will cause wrinkles as well as smearing. Jeff Autor jsa00564@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
malloy@nprdc.arpa (Sean Malloy) (09/12/89)
In article <3080@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> tjr@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (thomas.j.roberts) writes: >BEWARE: the DeskJet has problems with page-length, due to its inability >to print on the last 1/2 inch of a page. >If you simply cat (or type) a file to it (one that is merely a series >of lines, no Form-Feeds). It will either: <description of the problem deleted> >Why HP decided to print only 3 lines on every other page is beyond my >comprehension - it's a lousy way to try to preserve page boundaries, >especially since such programs usually don't care about page boundaries. Okay -- first, it's not the _printer's_ fault that it's printing 3 lines on alternate pages, it's the fault of the software sending the text to the printer. Here is what is happening: 1. The program sends 63 lines of text to the printer. 2. The printer, having received 63 lines of text, and being unable to put more lines of text on the page, performs a page feed. 3. The program sends 3 more lines of text to the printer. 4. The program, knowing that 66 lines of text is all that will fit on a page, tells the printer to perform a page feed. 5. The printer performs a page feed, leaving three lines of text on the page just ejected. >I have written a UNIX/MS-DOS filter to do the following: > On every page, preceed line 64 (if it exists) with a form-feed. > If lines 64,65,66 exist and are blank, delete them. > If lines 64,65,66 do not exist, they must have been deleted by > a form-feed on input, so there is no problem. > If there is a form-feed on line 1 (top of page), delete it. I don't know if the DeskJet has this feature, but my DeskJet+ has a little switch (or a send-once setup code, I don't recall which off the top of my head) that you flip to tell the printer you want to compress the output a little to make 66 lines fit in the printable area of the page -- which eliminates the necessity for writing a filter as you describe. Read the manual and find out. Sean Malloy | "The proton absorbs a photon Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | and emits two morons, a San Diego, CA 92152-6800 | lepton, a boson, and a malloy@nprdc.navy.mil | boson's mate. Why did I ever | take high-energy physics?"
swh@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Steve Harrold) (09/12/89)
Re: DeskJet 63 lines per page According to the HP DeskJet Owner's Manual, there is a feature called "Text Scale Mode" that will allow you to print 66 lines per sheet (at 6 lpi) or 88 lines per sheet (at 8 lpi). This is done by using the escape sequence ESC & k 6 W (to enable it) ESC & k 5 W (to disable it) When enabled, it slightly compresses the interline spacing so that 66 (or 88) lines are printed per page. The bottom half-inch is still not used for printing. Most readers of such a page will not notice the subterfuge. This feature can be turned on permanently by setting mode function switch B1 in the UP position (see your manual for details). Hope this helps.
lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed) (09/12/89)
In article <3080@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> tjr@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (thomas.j.roberts) writes:
=BEWARE: the DeskJet has problems with page-length, due to its inability
=to print on the last 1/2 inch of a page.
=
=I have written a UNIX/MS-DOS filter to do the following:
= On every page, preceed line 64 (if it exists) with a form-feed.
= If lines 64,65,66 exist and are blank, delete them.
= If lines 64,65,66 do not exist, they must have been deleted by
= a form-feed on input, so there is no problem.
= If there is a form-feed on line 1 (top of page), delete it.
You took the hard way. Send the escape sequence to the printer to get
it to space the lines very slightly closer than 6 lines per inch.
Our Xenix lp script has the following line, which does that and probably
something else, too.
echo "\033E\033&l7.27c66F\c"
Our system thus handles 66 lines per page in a satifactory manner. I
also added an lpr switch to override this action for the rare case when
exact spacing matters. I have never used that switch.
--
Len Reed
Holos Software, Inc.
Voice: (404) 496-1358
UUCP: ...!gatech!holos0!lbrfyl@ssc.UUCP (Phil Hughes) (09/13/89)
In article <3080@cbnewsc.ATT.COM>, tjr@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (thomas.j.roberts) writes: > BEWARE: the DeskJet has problems with page-length, due to its inability > to print on the last 1/2 inch of a page. > If you simply cat (or type) a file to it (one that is merely a series > of lines, no Form-Feeds). It will either: > > a) work fine, skipping the first and last 3 lines per page > (Perf-skip mode on) > b) print 63 lines on Page 1, 3 lines on Page 2, 63 lines on Page 3, > 3 lines on page 4, etc... (Perf-skip mode off) And the third option is to tell the printer to print 66 lines in the space of 63. It squishes the entire page a little but works fine. -- Phil Hughes, SSC, Inc. P.O. Box 55549, Seattle, WA 98155 (206)FOR-UNIX amc-gw!ssc!fyl or uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fyl or attmail!ssc!fyl
dlow@hpspcoi.HP.COM (Danny Low) (09/13/89)
>I recently saw two sets of Deskjet output. ONe looked great, the >other was kind of blurry. It looked like either the wrong paper >had been used or too much ink came out. Has anyone noticed this >as a common problem or was this just an isolated case? There was an article recently published in the HP Journal that detailed the quest for a plain paper ink jet cartridge. It details what characteristics of a paper produces good output. Basically it is the clay content of the paper. This is a controlled quality in bonded paper but a "don't care" for xerographic paper. As a result, copier paper may or may not produce good quality Deskjet printouts as the clay content is hughly variable from one brand to another. One interesting result of this investigation is that some paper companies now make paper specifically for the Deskjet as they now know what makes for good print quality on a Deskjet. BTW, I have nothing to do with the Deskjet product. This info is based on the article and the subsequent appearance of Deskjet specific paper in the local stores. Danny Low "Question Authority and the Authorities will question You" Valley of Hearts Delight, Sillicon Valley dlow%hpspcoi@hplabs.hp.com ...!hplabs!hpspcoi!dlow
rick@NRC.COM (Rick Wagner) (09/13/89)
In article <3080@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> tjr@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (thomas.j.roberts) writes: >BEWARE: the DeskJet has problems with page-length, due to its inability >to print on the last 1/2 inch of a page. >If you simply cat (or type) a file to it (one that is merely a series >of lines, no Form-Feeds). It will either: > > a) work fine, skipping the first and last 3 lines per page > (Perf-skip mode on) > b) print 63 lines on Page 1, 3 lines on Page 2, 63 lines on Page 3, > 3 lines on page 4, etc... (Perf-skip mode off) > >While (a) might work for this case, if you then use it with a program >that expects 66 lines per page (such as pr, troff, ...), the pages will >quickly get out of sync. (b) is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. This can be fixed by turning on the text-scale switch. This causes the printer to print 66 lines in the space of 60 lines. Note that this option should be shut off by word processors, or other programs which do absolute page positioning, because the positions will be scaled as well. I put a 'text-scale-off' escape sequence into the printer initialization string for WordPerfect. That way when I print from DOS, I get my 66 lines per page, but WP gets correct absolute positions. > >Why HP decided to print only 3 lines on every other page is beyond my >comprehension - it's a lousy way to try to preserve page boundaries, >especially since such programs usually don't care about page boundaries. > This is because the form length is set to 66 lines; so every 66 lines the printer ejects the page, forgetting that it just spat a page a few lines ago because it ran off the printable bottom of the last. The text-scale option I described above solves this. Unfortunately, the manual is not very clear on what the text-scale switch does (it is also lacking in a lot of other areas too). I had the printer for six months before I figured that dumb switch out. >I have written a UNIX/MS-DOS filter to do the following: (stuff deleted) > >Tom Roberts >att!ihnet!tjr -rick -- =============================================================================== Rick Wagner Network Research Corp. rick@nrc.com rick@nrcvax.UUCP 2380 North Rose Ave. (805) 485-2700 FAX: (805) 485-8204 Oxnard, CA 93030 Don't hate yourself in the morning, sleep 'till noon.
rh1m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rudi Jay Halbright) (09/14/89)
When using the Deskjet you have to be careful to use the correct side of the paper. The correct side is marked on the wrapping of the ream of paper. On hammerhill paper for example, there is an arrow pointing to one side, it is labeled "copy or print this side first". It is very difficult to tell which is the correct looking at the paper, so if you already have it out of the ream, try both sides and see which looks better -Rudi Halbright rh1m@andrew.cmu.edu
jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) (09/15/89)
In article <14212@netnews.upenn.edu> ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Richard Ferris) writes:
x>I recently saw two sets of Deskjet output. ONe looked great, the
x>other was kind of blurry. It looked like either the wrong paper
x>had been used or too much ink came out. Has anyone noticed this
x>as a common problem or was this just an isolated case?
I have a DeskJet and it has always produced near-laser quality output.
Except, of course, when the ink cartridge starts to run out.
--
****** Views expressed herin are my own *******
Jim Burke - consultant 408) 734-9822 | I'll stop posting when they pry my
jimb@Atherton.COM | cold, dead fingers from the smoking
{decwrl,sun,hpda,pyramid}!athertn!jimb | keyboard.demon@ibmpcug.co.uk (Cliff Stanford) (09/19/89)
In article <3080@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> tjr@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (thomas.j.roberts) writes: >BEWARE: the DeskJet has problems with page-length, due to its inability >to print on the last 1/2 inch of a page. Have you thought about switching Switch 1 of bank B *ON*. Then (and I quote from the manual), "Enable Text Scale Mode allows 66 lines to print on the effective paper length. Thus on an 11 inch page with an effective paper length of 10.5", 66 lines would print." Regards Cliff. -- Automatic Disclaimer: The views expressed above are those of the author alone and may not represent the views of the IBM PC User Group.
clayj@microsoft.UUCP (Clay Jackson) (09/20/89)
In article <1640016@hpspcoi.HP.COM> dlow@hpspcoi.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >One interesting result of this investigation >is that some paper companies now make paper specifically for the >Deskjet as they now know what makes for good print quality >on a Deskjet. Danny - Can you post WHICH companies.... Inquiring minds want to know...... Clay Jackson
dlow@hpspcoi.HP.COM (Danny Low) (09/21/89)
>Danny - Can you post WHICH companies.... > >Inquiring minds want to know...... Unfortunately I do not have that information. I found some paper labelled as Deskjet paper at Frys, a local electronics store, about 4 months ago. The last time I looked the paper was all gone and I have not seen anymore since then. Danny Low "Question Authority and the Authorities will question You" Valley of Hearts Delight, Sillicon Valley HP PCG dlow%hpspcoi@hplabs.hp.com ...!hplabs!hpspcoi!dlow
jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) (09/22/89)
In article <1640019@hpspcoi.HP.COM> dlow@hpspcoi.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >Unfortunately I do not have that information. I found some paper >labelled as Deskjet paper at Frys, a local electronics store, >about 4 months ago. I have used stadard xerox copier paper, cotton bond letterhead, and light card stock in my deskjet with good results. The DJ documentation does not recommend any special kind of paper, they only tell you not to use inkjet paper. So anyone selling you deskjet specific paper is selling you something that HP says you don't need, and that I've found I have never needed. -- ****** Views expressed herin are my own ******* Jim Burke - consultant 408) 734-9822 | I'll stop posting when they pry my jimb@Atherton.COM | cold, dead fingers from the smoking {decwrl,sun,hpda,pyramid}!athertn!jimb | keyboard.
jb@aablue.UUCP (John B Scalia) (09/22/89)
In article <12887@athertn.Atherton.COM> jimb@athertn.UUCP (Jim Burke) writes: >In article <1640019@hpspcoi.HP.COM> dlow@hpspcoi.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes: >>Unfortunately I do not have that information. I found some paper >>labelled as Deskjet paper at Frys, a local electronics store, >>about 4 months ago. >I have used stadard xerox copier paper, cotton bond letterhead, and >light card stock in my deskjet with good results. The DJ documentation >does not recommend any special kind of paper, they only tell you not >to use inkjet paper. So anyone selling you deskjet specific paper is >selling you something that HP says you don't need, and that I've found >I have never needed. Let me qualify myself by saying, "Yeah, we sell this stuff, but I'm the one who has to explain to the end-bozo :-) why it keeps screwing up his new toy." Jim is probably right, he doesn't need special paper, but nobody could guarantee that. Most of the reasons that a laser printer or a copier will eat a piece of paper has to do with: 1) the "weight" of the paper - or how thick it is 2) the grain direction of the sheet 3) the moisture content of the paper On most small lasers, including the Deskjet, and some small copiers, their paper feed assemblies have to have been added as afterthoughts. Therefore, you have to use good quality paper in them. On Deskjets and other units that feed their paper "sideways", that is along their 8-1/2" direction, the paper almost always has to be labled short-grain or SG. "Normal" copier bond papers are almost always long grain. Your pack will be or should be labeled as to which it is. Little machines are always pickier than big units; they can't feed heavy cardstocks and they'll image really poor or not at all if the paper has a lot of moisture in it. Like it or not, there are differences in paper, and if you just buy the cheapest stuff because it is, you probably won't be happy with its performance. jb@aablue -- A A Blueprint Co., Inc. - Akron, Ohio +1 216 794-8803 voice UUCP: {uunet!}aablue!jb Sometimes they do let me speak for the company, not today though.