coryc@sequent.UUCP (Cory Carpenter) (10/24/89)
Has anyone out there in the IBM PC world heard of an emulator for XT-class machines that runs Macintosh software? A friend of mine is convinced that this exists, and is determined to have it. (In a polite difference of opinion I was forced to admit that it *might* be possible, but only with some kind of 68000-based card -- he insists that his Grail is a piece of software, and that it is public-domain.) Any information would be greatly appreciated! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Cory R. Carpenter | "Please fasten your | | Sequent Computer Systems | seatbelts, and return| | Beaverton, OR | the stewardess to her| | {uucp; ogccse; tektronix}!sequent!coryc | original upright | | This is me talking, not my employer. | position." | -----------------------------------------------------------------------
baalke@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) (10/25/89)
In article <23793@sequent.UUCP> coryc@sequent.UUCP (Cory Carpenter) writes: >Has anyone out there in the IBM PC world heard of an emulator for >XT-class machines that runs Macintosh software? > Well, I haven't heard of of a IBM PC emulating a Macintosh yet, but if it did exist it would probably run slow because that is the nature of emulators. There is a Mac emulator call AMAX that is a software/hardware package that run on the Amiga computers. It uses actual Macintosh ROM chips and Macintosh disk drives and cost around $600. The Amiga also has addons to make it XT or AT compatible. Ron Baalke (818) 541-2341 ext 260 Jet Propulsion Lab M/S 301-355 4800 Oak Grove Dr. Pasadena, CA 91109
pmjc@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Pam Arnold) (10/25/89)
In article <23793@sequent.UUCP> coryc@sequent.UUCP (Cory Carpenter) writes: >Has anyone out there in the IBM PC world heard of an emulator for >XT-class machines that runs Macintosh software? > >A friend of mine is convinced that this exists, and is determined to >have it. (In a polite difference of opinion I was forced to admit that >it *might* be possible, but only with some kind of 68000-based card -- >he insists that his Grail is a piece of software, and that it is >public-domain.) > >| Cory R. Carpenter There is a product called SoftPC that runs PC software on a Mac II. I have never heard of a software Mac emulator for the PC. First of all, if there were such a thing, it would be ungodly SLOW! Think of the hassle of translation all those 68000 linear addresses into Intel segmented addresses! Possible, I suppose, but hardly a a pace that would satisfy an XT user. Secondly, a product of this complexity isn't likely to be public domain. Let's not even discuss the commercial possibilities.... I strongly suspect that Apple would send their lawyers out after anyone who issued such a product, PD or not. After all, it would have to include a functioning clone of the fabled Mac Toolbox, which Apple has shown their interest in protecting through legal means. You may recall the fate of the 'Magic Sac', which was a product that allowed Atari ST owners to run Mac software. PAA
daved@cscnj.csc.COM (Dave Douglass) (10/25/89)
In article <3492@ur-cc.UUCP>, pmjc@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Pam Arnold) writes: > > You may recall the fate of the 'Magic Sac', which was a product that > allowed Atari ST owners to run Mac software. > > PAA The demise of the 'Magic Sac' had nothing to do with Apple. David Small (the inventor of the Sac) left Data Pacific, Inc. (the company he started) to move on to 'other projects'. The result of his first other project made the Magic Sac obsolete. He currently owns and operates Gadgets by Small, Inc., makers of the Spectre GCR. This devices allows an Atari ST computer to emulate a Mac Plus (128K ROMs) right down to using Mac floppys in the Atari drives. There have been several long threads discussing the merits of a laptop Mac vs. a laptop ST w/Spectre in comp.sys.atari.st and comp.sys.mac. I'm not affiliated with Gadgets by Small, Inc. in any way except as a Spectre 128 (no floppy drive emulation) owner. But if Dave wants to send me a free GCR in return for this plug, I won't refuse it. -- --------- Dave Douglass Computer Sciences Corporation Piscataway, NJ 08854 ....!rutgers.rutgers.edu!cscnj!daved
jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) (10/26/89)
In article <23793@sequent.UUCP> coryc@sequent.UUCP (Cory Carpenter) writes: >Has anyone out there in the IBM PC world heard of an emulator for >XT-class machines that runs Macintosh software? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Cory R. Carpenter | "Please fasten your | There was an XT emulator for the Mac (which, as I recall, was called the SoftPC and was a failure for reasons I'll get to below). But I don't think anybody has written a Mac emulator for the PC... It is possible to run binaries for one chip on another chip by writing what amounts to a machine-language interpreter, which reads the opcodes (for the 8088, in this case) and performs the indicated operation using the opcodes of its own processor (the 68000). Of course, this usually has to be coupled with an OS faker, which emulates the functions of the OS of the emulated machine. Plus, you're having to manage a virtual memory space (you have to feed the binary the sort of addresses it's looking for while keeping track of where you've actually put those bytes), and, in the case of emulating a DOS machine, you have to be prepared for programs which want direct access to the hardware. In practice, nobody has ever actually done this. The SoftPC would only run with well-behaved programs and, in any case, interpreting machine language is INCREDIBLY slow. The Amiga has a far more intelligent approach with the BridgeCard, which has an actual Intel 8088 with its own memory and some associated hardware like communication ports and several expansion slots (!). In this case, the problem is reduced to getting the 8088 binaries to the 8088 (not a problem, since the BridgeCard comes with a floppy drive which connects directly to it) and getting the display onto the Amiga's screen. The 8088 runs standard DOS, so not even an OS faker is required. The 8088 can even have its own hard drive, since it has standard XT expansion slots. Some additional fooling around is required in order to get the two halves of the machine to share hard drives, but software to do this is already available. Whew... sorry to go on for so long. The summary is: software emulators are nearly impossible to write, don't do everything, and are so slow as to be tough to use. Hardware hacks are much easier, but I don't think anybody has done a Mac-on-a-board for the PC, especially with the way Apple is about the Mac ROMs... -- James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET ...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa Compu$erve: 71261,1731 "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin
martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) (10/26/89)
Distribution: na Organization: Clinical Pharmacokinetics Lab, SUNY at Buffalo Lines: 32 *** *** In article <11074@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, *** jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: *** > > There was an XT emulator for the Mac (which, as I recall, was called >the SoftPC and was a failure for reasons I'll get to below). But I don't >think anybody has written a Mac emulator for the PC... > SoftPC is hardly a failure on the MAC. It was designed to run on a 68020 or better, i.e. a MAC II or SE/30. It runs at about the pace of an original XT, which for many purposes is adequate ( I wouldn't want to do any statistics on it though.) while I still don't know why anyone would want to run IBM PC software on a MAC when you can just import the data into a MAC application if you need it, it does do a good job of emulation. I have run it at a store that I help out at and it seems to run everything I throw at it, even Norton utilities. I have only had one program refuse to run and it was a trivial editor. The program will even boot from a floppy if you have the new apple superdrive in you MAC. Please to not rank something as a failure unless you have tried it and specify your criteria. Marty
jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) (10/31/89)
In article <-539608237@cpl-mfh.UUCP> martya@cpl-mfh.UUCP (Marty Adelman) writes:
=In article <11074@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, I wrote:
=
== There was an XT emulator for the Mac (which, as I recall, was called
==the SoftPC and was a failure for reasons I'll get to below). But I don't
==think anybody has written a Mac emulator for the PC...
=
=SoftPC is hardly a failure on the MAC. It was designed to run on a 68020
=or better, i.e. a MAC II or SE/30. It runs at about the pace of an original
=XT, which for many purposes is adequate ( I wouldn't want to do any statistics
=on it though.) while I still don't know why anyone would want to run IBM
=PC software on a MAC when you can just import the data into a MAC application
=if you need it, it does do a good job of emulation. I have run it at a store
=that I help out at and it seems to run everything I throw at it, even
=Norton utilities. I have only had one program refuse to run and it was a
=trivial editor. The program will even boot from a floppy if you have the
=new apple superdrive in you MAC.
=
=Please to not rank something as a failure unless you have tried it and specify
=your criteria.
=
=Marty
This is what I get for repeating what I hear without thinking. I read
about it several years ago. Whoever wrote the article thought it stank
horribly (and maybe several years ago, on vintage Macs, it did) and
implied that it had sold one copy and then died. Since I never heard
anything further about it, I saw no reason to question what I read.
Sorry, everybody.
--
James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET
...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa Compu$erve: 71261,1731
"For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin