greg@dekalb.UUCP (Greg Philmon) (10/23/89)
A little note of warning for any in the hard drive market. Several months ago
I purchased the Seagate ST296N/ST01 SCSI drive kit from Hard Drives
International, a company I had heard good things about. Their advertisement
promised "1 to 1" performance. The purchase was made, largely, on this claim
as I needed a larger, faster hard disk.
Specifying second day air, I called them a week later to see where the drive
was. "We're out, expect some in a few days." Well it finally showed up about
two weeks after being ordered (second-week air?). Then the problems really
started.
Telling DiskManager to format it 1:1 (as promised in their ads) brought
terrible results. It seemed that 2:1 was the best it could do. But I
foolishly refused to believe it, instead wondering what I was doing wrong. My
old hard drive was already spoken for and I sold it when the 296N arrived.
I asked around and someone suggested shorting the "0ws" (zero wait state?)
jumper. "AH HA!" - so that's what I did wrong! I set it, backed up about 60
megs to disks (ugh), and had DiskManager give it another try.
Nope - still couldn't do 1:1. What's the problem?
Next I called Hard Drives International (not a toll-free call, BTW) and
explained my problem to a tech rep. "Well," he replied, "you need to short the
jumper labeled '0ws'." I told him I already tried that.
"Then your computer is not fast enough to handle 1:1," was his next stab.
I proceeded to tell him that I was running the drive in a 25MHz zero-wait 386.
Guess what he said? "Well, you need a 33MHz machine." Oh my god, I can't
believe I'm paying to talk to this guy.
At that point I got mad and started spouting about truth in advertising and all
that. He brought up the excellent point that he didn't write that ad. Finally
he admitted that he'd never heard of the 296N/ST01 combo being able to achieve
1:1 interleave and he could transfer me to a customer service rep that could
issue me an RMA.
About a month ago I wrote a letter to HDI, telling them my problem. No reply
has come. And the worst part is that their ads STILL flaunt the ST296N as
being "1:1". That's a damn lie, simple as that.
Anyway, I suppose this'll draw some flames, but I would NOT recommend HDI to
anyone. Their ad was a lie, their technical support a sad joke, and their
desire to please the customer amounted to "Do you want your money back or not?
We've got other things to do."
--
---------------------------------------------------------
| Greg Philmon ...gatech!dekalb!greg CIS: 72261,1724 |
---------------------------------------------------------styamane@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Stanley Tooru Aiichi Yamane) (10/24/89)
I made the same purchase (ST296N/ST02), and have had the same problems (1:2 is apparently the best interleave). However, I was told by HDI that the 1:1 claim is made by Seagate, not HDI ... which made me feel a little better, although I have just noticed in the new PC Magazine, HDI is still advertising this combo at '1 to 1'. I was told (by the tech support people) that if I wanted better performance, I could purchase the Adaptec 1542 HA. Has anyone tried this particular combo? Specifically, is it worth the ~$250 upgrade price and will the 296N, with the Adaptec, be able to keep pace with an MFM drive running at a 1:1 interleave. (which it sure can't with the ST-02) If not, perhaps this is a good time to use the "No-hassle" 30-day money-back guarantee and get a 4096 or something. So far, the HDI people have been very friendly about the whole affair, and I wouldn't expect problems with the return. (BTW, delivery on my drive was supposed to take 8-10 days: it came in 7) Stanley Yamane (styamane@phoenix.Princeton.EDU)
bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Michael L. Bowden) (10/24/89)
I've posted this info before, but for those that weren't tuned in, here it is again. I too bought a 296N from HDI, having been told that the 4096 had an unacceptable return rate (which drove the cost up to $569 at HDI). If I had purchased the 4096 I wouldn't be getting more than about 230KB/sec. With the 296N I'm getting about 450KB/sec, even with 2:1 interleave, not to mention half the power draw and half of a drive bay free. The Atari newsgroups have been discussing the 296N for some time, and a friend of mine alerted me to the fact that drives with version 7 roms would handle 1:1 interleave, but version 8 roms would not. It turns out that Seagate was having problems getting the drive to work with Macintoshes (pre-SE models), which was where they sold the majority of those drives. Apparently the Macs couldn't handle the data rate at 1:1, so Seagate came up with a new rom to slow down the data rate. Note that a fancy controller board isn't going to make this drive work well at 1:1, though it will certainly improve the situation if it's has cache. I spent a good deal of time on the phone to both HDI and Seagate several months ago, specifically about this issue. You're right, HDI didn't know what Seagate had done...so I told them, and gave them a contact person at Seagate so that they would have it direct from the source. At this point I should say that Seagate said that they would handle this on an individual basis, whereby you ship your drive back to HDI, they would send it to the Seagate repair center, who would replace the rom with a 1:1 capable rom. The turnaround time is a minimum of 2 weeks, and you aren't guaranteed to get the same drive back, so who knows what you'd get? One that's 2 years older? I decided that I was already dependent on it, I liked the speed (though the potential of more was very inviting) and that it was still the best value I could find, so I kept it. One other thing, Seagate didn't even know that the drive wouldn't do 1:1 until some of the Atari users talked to the tech people and convinced them to test it. At that point, they said something to the effect of "how about that", and "no, we won't be updating the roms in the forseeable future". What it amounts to is that until the user community screams long and loud, they're going to figure you're getting a pretty good deal on an 80 meg drive, and aren't that worried about a little extra potential. In answer to the complaints about the non-toll free number(s), here they are: 800-234-5197 HDI customer support (Hailey) 800-468-3472 ext. 2 Seagate customer support (Pam Swanson) Both companies have competent people working for them, but keep in mind that they aren't all technicians, or policy makers, or advertisers. In companies that large it's difficult for the left hand to know what the right hand is doing, so be patient and persistent. Above all, don't condemn a company just because one or two people don't have all the facts and try to answer questions they aren't equipped to handle. Michael L. Bowden Internet: bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu Western Michigan University bowden@gw.wmich.edu Academic Computer Center Voice: (616) 387-5448 Kalamazoo, MI 49008 -- Michael L. Bowden Internet: bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu Western Michigan University bowden@gw.wmich.edu Academic Computer Center Voice: (616) 387-5448 Kalamazoo, MI 49008
joel@peora.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) (10/24/89)
In article <754@dekalb.UUCP>, greg@dekalb.UUCP (Greg Philmon) writes: > "Then your computer is not fast enough to handle 1:1," was his next stab. > > I proceeded to tell him that I was running the drive in a 25MHz > zero-wait 386. Guess what he said? "Well, you need a 33MHz machine." Oh > my god, I can't believe I'm paying to talk to this guy. In a situation like this the speed of the processor is largly irrelvant. It is the speed of the I/O bus that it important. That isn't the same thing with high speed 286 and 386 machines. I just read a series of postings awhile back talking about how slow the I/O bus is on the Dell 310. You didn't mention what brand of computer you are using. It is possible that other machines rated the same machine or even slower might support a higher transfer rate than yours. I suspect there are a lot of 386 machines out there that can't support 1:1 interleave drives. Does the company that sells your computer have a 1:1 drive available as an option? That might indicate something? Of course, it is also possible that whoever wrote the HDI ads is full of horse manure. -- Joel Upchurch/Concurrent Computer Corp/2486 Sand Lake Rd/Orlando, FL 32809 joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel Telephone: (407) 850-1040 Fax: (407) 857-0713
doorn@cs.vu.nl (Doorn van Jan Bernard) (10/25/89)
Barry Johnson at HDI told me that as soon as they receive a ST296N with revision level 12 ROM from Seagate they'll notify me and I can send my old drive back for a new one. But more than a month now has passed and no upgraded drives seem to have arrived. So is Seagate turning them out or what? Roy Neese at Adaptec told me not to expect miracles from replacing the ST02 with an Adaptec controller, saying they are some of the poorest performing SCSI drives on the market. Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that I'll settle for nothing less than 900K/s.
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (10/25/89)
In article <902@gumby.cc.wmich.edu>, bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Michael L. Bowden) writes: | I too bought a 296N from HDI, having been told that the 4096 had an | unacceptable return rate (which drove the cost up to $569 at HDI). If | I had purchased the 4096 I wouldn't be getting more than about 230KB/sec. | With the 296N I'm getting about 450KB/sec, even with 2:1 interleave, | not to mention half the power draw and half of a drive bay free. I can't comment on most of what you said, but you comment about the transfer rate of the 4096 is not correct. With a track buffered 1:1 controller the theoretical max for MFM is 510kb/s, with RLL 780kb/s. I have seen a tad over 600kb/s using a wd1006VSR2 (RLL) controller, to a program which was actually looking at the data rather than doing disk tests. I therefore conclude that any 1:1 controller with real track buffering (hardware not software) should be able to beat the value you mentioned. If anyone cares, the theoretical max sustained transfer rate for more than one cylinder (on a 4096) is 436 (MFM) and 668 (RLL). These are only slightly higher than the coretest shows with appropriate controllers. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Michael L. Bowden) (10/31/89)
In article <1456@crdos1.crd.ge.COM> davidsen@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes: >In article <902@gumby.cc.wmich.edu>, bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Michael L. Bowden) writes: > >|... I had purchased the 4096 I wouldn't be getting more than about 230KB/sec. > ... I can't comment on most of what you said, but you comment about the >transfer rate of the 4096 is not correct. With a track buffered 1:1 >controller the theoretical max for MFM is 510kb/s, with RLL 780kb/s. I... That's true Bill, but you assume that my controller is capable of 1:1, which it isn't. So that would be an additional expense, thus lowering the value (for me at least). In addition, the 296N is about 82 megs formatted, the 4096 is 80 megs unformatted, (which someone on this group said comes out to around 75 megs formatted) so I'm getting an extra 7 megs or so and still paying less. In order of necessity, capacity comes first, speed second, though speed is certainly very nice. -- Michael L. Bowden Internet: bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu Western Michigan University bowden@gw.wmich.edu Academic Computer Center Voice: (616) 387-5448 Kalamazoo, MI 49008
ralf@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) (10/31/89)
In article <905@gumby.cc.wmich.edu> bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Michael L. Bowden) writes: }the value (for me at least). In addition, the 296N is about 82 megs }formatted, the 4096 is 80 megs unformatted, (which someone on this group }said comes out to around 75 megs formatted) so I'm getting an extra 7 megs Nope, the 4096 is 96 megabytes unformatted, 80 megabytes formatted. The 296 is also 96 unformatted. }or so and still paying less. In order of necessity, capacity comes first, }speed second, though speed is certainly very nice. } }-- }Michael L. Bowden Internet: bowden@gumby.cc.wmich.edu }Western Michigan University bowden@gw.wmich.edu }Academic Computer Center Voice: (616) 387-5448 }Kalamazoo, MI 49008 -- {backbone}!cs.cmu.edu!ralf ARPA: RALF@CS.CMU.EDU FIDO: Ralf Brown 1:129/46 BITnet: RALF%CS.CMU.EDU@CMUCCVMA AT&Tnet: (412)268-3053 (school) FAX: ask DISCLAIMER? | _How_to_Prove_It_ by Dana Angluin 3. Proof by vigourous What's that?| handwaving: works well in a classroom or seminar setting.
wolfordj@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (j.w.wolford) (11/02/89)
From article <754@dekalb.UUCP>, by greg@dekalb.UUCP (Greg Philmon): > > A little note of warning for any in the hard drive market. Several months ago > I purchased the Seagate ST296N/ST01 SCSI drive kit from Hard Drives > International, a company I had heard good things about. Their advertisement > promised "1 to 1" performance. The purchase was made, largely, on this claim > as I needed a larger, faster hard disk. You have to be kidding right.... what do you want from a $49 disk controller.... yes thats right I can even get a ST01 for $39 if you want... do you think it has any memory to do caching.... Sigh... And yet a WD1007 SCSI controller is > $200 and some places are trying to get > $400 there has to be something diff...... Sneering WITH you not at you... The ST01 is a 8 bit controller and you are hooking this up to a 25Mhz 386..... Your $$$ "aint" in the right place..... It don't matter how fast your CPU is if you can't get the program off of the HD then things are going to be slow unless you only run that one program all day... and I have yet to run into someone that runs only one program all day on a 386... Yes, I think the ad stinks if thats what they say.... but remember you get what you pay for and if some price is too good to be true then it is.... but atleast they would give you your money back.... If you don't want a working product or your money back at all then order from Computer Expert out of N.Y., N.Y..... If you like even better deceptive advertisement then order from ACP.... and then after you return it they will re-bill you a YEAR later.... yes that is going on right now.... luckily I saved the shipping reciept (yes its 1 1/2 years old....)... RE: HDI I ordered a ESDI controller WD1007 and a ESDI drive from HDI and said send it standard shipping... I had in 6 total days (ie 4 working days, plus sat.).... So I have not had a problem with them.... I get better than 800K/sec transfer with out a cache and with a cache I get > 11000KB/sec (yes thats 11MB/sec (B as in byte)... and this is on a lowly 286..... > Telling DiskManager to format it 1:1 (as promised in their ads) brought > terrible results. It seemed that 2:1 was the best it could do. But I > foolishly refused to believe it, instead wondering what I was doing wrong. My > old hard drive was already spoken for and I sold it when the 296N arrived. Have you tried a interleave test program like HTEST/HFORMAT or SPINWRITE to check out what the optimum interleave is.... > Next I called Hard Drives International (not a toll-free call, BTW) and > explained my problem to a tech rep. "Well," he replied, "you need to short the > jumper labeled '0ws'." I told him I already tried that. > > "Then your computer is not fast enough to handle 1:1," was his next stab. > > I proceeded to tell him that I was running the drive in a 25MHz zero-wait 386. > Guess what he said? "Well, you need a 33MHz machine." Oh my god, I can't > believe I'm paying to talk to this guy. Yes I find this hard to believe to and I too would be pissed.... But the ST01 is a 8bit controller.... > issue me an RMA. TAKE THE RMA..... get rid of that ST01 slow controller buy yourself a REAL controller ESDI or SCSI.... ie WD1007 or a ADAPTEC.... > --------------------------------------------------------- > | Greg Philmon ...gatech!dekalb!greg CIS: 72261,1724 | > --------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Wolford uunet---+ att!iwsag!jww | att!iwsag!iwtjw!jww ucbvax--+---- att --+ iwsag!jww | decvax--+
c60a-1bd@e260-1g.berkeley.edu (Jeff Davis) (11/03/89)
In article <4439@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> wolfordj@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (j.w.wolford) writes: >From article <754@dekalb.UUCP>, by greg@dekalb.UUCP (Greg Philmon): >> >> A little note of warning for any in the hard drive market. Several months ago >> I purchased the Seagate ST296N/ST01 SCSI drive kit from Hard Drives >> International, a company I had heard good things about. Their advertisement >> promised "1 to 1" performance. The purchase was made, largely, on this claim >> as I needed a larger, faster hard disk. > >You have to be kidding right.... what do you want from a $49 disk >controller.... yes thats right I can even get a ST01 for $39 if you want... >do you think it has any memory to do caching.... Sigh... And yet a >WD1007 SCSI controller is > $200 and some places are trying to get > $400 >there has to be something diff...... Sneering WITH you not at you... > >The ST01 is a 8 bit controller and you are hooking this up to a 25Mhz >386..... Your $$$ "aint" in the right place..... It don't matter how fast >your CPU is if you can't get the program off of the HD then things are >going to be slow unless you only run that one program all day... and I have >yet to run into someone that runs only one program all day on a 386... > [ some stuff deleted] >> Telling DiskManager to format it 1:1 (as promised in their ads) brought >> terrible results. It seemed that 2:1 was the best it could do. But I >> foolishly refused to believe it, instead wondering what I was doing wrong. My >> old hard drive was already spoken for and I sold it when the 296N arrived. > >Have you tried a interleave test program like HTEST/HFORMAT or SPINWRITE >to check out what the optimum interleave is.... Programs like Htest/Spinrite etc. WILL NOT WORK WITH SCSI! Does anyone know of programs which do this sort of thing for SCSI? I just reformatted my drive with a 2:1 interleave and am now getting ~500K transfer rates as opposed to 320K with 3:1 and about 100K with 1:1. This is on a 20MHz 386 with an st02 controller and the bus at 10MHz. [more stuff deleted] >TAKE THE RMA..... get rid of that ST01 slow controller buy yourself a REAL >controller ESDI or SCSI.... ie WD1007 or a ADAPTEC.... > >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> | Greg Philmon ...gatech!dekalb!greg CIS: 72261,1724 | >> --------------------------------------------------------- > >Jeff Wolford uunet---+ >att!iwsag!jww | >att!iwsag!iwtjw!jww ucbvax--+---- att --+ iwsag!jww > | > decvax--+ After speaking with tech support at seagate (well first I had to figure out how to get a person rather than a tape) they said the best interleave you could hope for is 2:1 although if you are "lucky" 1:1 might be better. I am not entirely sure that the bottleneck is the ST0[12]. I think it may be the smarts built into the drive which prevent you from running at 1:1. I am rather disappointed by the performance of the st296N but considering the price I think I can't complain too much. I am collecting stories about this drive and would appreciate anyone having used it to send me a note with benchmarks and so forth. Has anyone used it with one of the better controllers? Does it help much? Please send me mail and I will post a summary. -- Jeff Davis JCDavis@LBL.GOV or on bitnet JCDavis@LBL