ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) (10/31/89)
Whatever happened to the 386SX modules that could directly replace the 80286 chip on AT motherboards? I remember hearing that several were announced, but haven't seen anything about them in the last year. Anyone care to comment... I'll summarize email responses... Ron +------All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By-------+ +-------------------------------My Employer-----------------------------------+ + Ronald S. Woan (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)ron@woan.austin.ibm.com + + outside of IBM @cs.utexas.edu:ibmaus!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron +
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (11/02/89)
ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) writes: > Whatever happened to the 386SX modules that could directly replace the > 80286 chip on AT motherboards? I remember hearing that several were > announced, but haven't seen anything about them in the last year... I'm not only curious, but vitally interested...I've got a machine I want to upgrade. MicroWay made a regular (DX) 386 plug-in for ATs. However, it's only for the real blue AT--with the PGA 286 and a particular board layout. I tried to use one in raven, a NEC AT clone but with the PGA CPU, but there was a connector in the way, and stacking chip carriers generated enough {noise, capacitance} that it didn't work. MicroWay said they were making an SX board to upgrade AT clones. It was supposed to be a short bus board with some cache, which probably would be better than an uncached DX. It was supposed to be out in October, so I called them Wed (the 32nd of October:-) to see what happened. They said it had some problems and wouldn't be out until "first quarter of 1990". Ouch! That's 2-5 months. (I don't want to flame MicroWay at all...quite the contrary. They were very helpful in arranging for me to try the board in my machine. They're also the most helpful, competent, and honest/straightforward vendor I've ever dealt with. I'd buy from them in a second if they had what I want now. At least they'll tell me why it isn't there.) Intel has their Inboard, which is a DX replacement board. It's expensive, I think. I don't see them doing anything for an SX replacement. How many people got intel's glitzy ad saying that NOW! is the time to go to a 386, with the notes that the 386SX will make it easy to upgrade to the 386 at 286 prices? I did, and I'd love to do the upgrade. Maybe we should beat up on intel to show us where we can get the upgrades NOW? -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 ...Worst-case analysis must never begin with "No one would ever want..."
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (11/02/89)
In article <1989Nov2.080213.2989@ico.isc.com>, rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: | How many people got intel's glitzy ad saying that NOW! is the time to go to | a 386, with the notes that the 386SX will make it easy to upgrade to the | 386 at 286 prices? I did, and I'd love to do the upgrade. Maybe we should | beat up on intel to show us where we can get the upgrades NOW? The easiest way to do this is by replacing the motherboard. You should be able to get a new SX motherboard for about $350-400 (I have seen dealer prices of $286 if you can qualify). This will NOT give you all of the performance of a 386DX, but it will run DOS programs at the speed of a 16MHz AT, and you can use 16 bit memory with no penalty. Actually you pay the penalty all the time, but it's still fast. It may be cheaper to replace the m.b. than to try to fake in an adaptor for an SX or DX chip using the old board. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
joel@peora.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) (11/02/89)
ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) writes: > Whatever happened to the 386SX modules that could directly replace the > 80286 chip on AT motherboards? I remember hearing that several were > announced, but haven't seen anything about them in the last year... > I suspect that there isn't much market for these modules. With the new 386SX pricing it is easier to do a complete motherboard swap. 386SX motherboards sell for less than $400 (with 0k) and the end result is a much better machine than a add-on module. That's what I plan to do with my 16MHz 286 whenever I get any software that can take advantage of the 386. Of course, if you use memory from a 8MHZ AT in the 386, you'll have set some wait states on the board to get it run properly. -- Joel Upchurch/Concurrent Computer Corp/2486 Sand Lake Rd/Orlando, FL 32809 joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel Telephone: (407) 850-1040 Fax: (407) 857-0713
yap@me.utoronto.ca (Davin Yap) (11/03/89)
In article <4001@peora.ccur.com> joel@peora.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) writes: >ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) writes: >> Whatever happened to the 386SX modules that could directly replace the >> 80286 chip on AT motherboards? I remember hearing that several were >> announced, but haven't seen anything about them in the last year... >> > >I suspect that there isn't much market for these modules. With the >new 386SX pricing it is easier to do a complete motherboard swap. Yes, but what if you have a 286 laptop, and have no qualms about opening it up. How much glue is required to get the SX to look like a 286? Can it be done with a 'smart' socket that goes between the SX and the socket on the board or is there something fundamentally wrong with this idea? How many, if any, extra pins are there on the SX than on the 286? Was it really impossible for Intel to come up with a 16-bit 386 that was pin compatible with the 286 or was this just a marketing thing. Since they're having so much trouble competing with the second source suppliers of cmos 286s, it would have been (would be) a real boon for them if such a thing existed - hundreds of thousands of ATs would be given a second life, and they'd make a mint. Full of questions but no answers. Opinions anyone? Davin _______________leave_nothing_to_the_imagination_of_those_without_______________ GOAL: To dance the light fan- |Davin Yap, Mechanical Engineering, U of Toronto tastic in the face of derision,| yap@me.toronto.edu yap@me.utoronto.bitnet from those bland at heart. | ...{pyramid,uunet}!utai!utme!yap
hgcjr@utastro.UUCP (Harold G. Corwin Jr.) (11/03/89)
In article <1533@crdos1.crd.ge.COM>, davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) writes: > The easiest way to do this is by replacing the motherboard. You should > be able to get a new SX motherboard for about $350-400 (I have seen > dealer prices of $286 if you can qualify). This will NOT give you all of > the performance of a 386DX, but it will run DOS programs at the speed of > a 16MHz AT, and you can use 16 bit memory with no penalty. Actually you > pay the penalty all the time, but it's still fast. > > It may be cheaper to replace the m.b. than to try to fake in an > adaptor for an SX or DX chip using the old board. I've been thinking of doing this myself. Has anyone on the net actually put a 386SX motherboard in an AT or a clone? If so, would you be willing to comment on the project? I am personally interested in the whole thing, all the way from choosing a board and a dealer, through the actual mechanical installation, to the moment of truth -- does it work as advertised or not? Particular questions of mine: can the 120ns 256Kb RAM on the AT motherboard be used successfully on a new board, or should I plan on buying faster RAM? Similarly, what about my extended/expanded memory board with the same sort of RAM? The thought of replacing 2.5MB at today's costs for 80 or 100ns RAM doesn't thrill me too much. (I'm not particularly interested in speed, but mostly in the 386's memory management skills that are supposed to ease the problems of multitasking, working with large programs, data files, etc.) How about video cards and serial/parallel ports? Can I use the ones I've got now, or will this be an added expense, too? (I'd like to keep my Hercules card until I have software that will use VGA.) I know that I'll need a new hard/floppy controller, as well as a 387SX. All these details may not be of general interest, so e-mail and I'll summarize if there is indeed enough interest. Many thanks! Harold Corwin -- Harold G. Corwin, Jr. UUCP: {backbonesite}!{noao,cs.utexas.edu}!utastro!hgcjr Internet: hgcjr@astro.as.utexas.edu MaBell: 512-471-7463 Astronomy Dept., RLM 15.308, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712-1083
pcg@emerald.cs.aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) (11/03/89)
In article <786@awdprime.UUCP> ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) writes:
Whatever happened to the 386SX modules that could directly replace the
80286 chip on AT motherboards? I remember hearing that several were
announced, but haven't seen anything about them in the last year. Anyone
care to comment... I'll summarize email responses...
With 386sx motherboards going for $375 mail order, a plug in 386sx replacement
for the 286 CPU alone should be much cheaper. Hard luck...
--
Piercarlo "Peter" Grandi | ARPA: pcg%cs.aber.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Dept of CS, UCW Aberystwyth | UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!aber-cs!pcg
Penglais, Aberystwyth SY23 3BZ, UK | INET: pcg@cs.aber.ac.ukdavidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (11/03/89)
In article <89Nov2.162059est.18926@me.utoronto.ca>, yap@me.utoronto.ca (Davin Yap) writes: | Yes, but what if you have a 286 laptop, and have no qualms about opening | it up. How much glue is required to get the SX to look like a 286? Can | it be done with a 'smart' socket that goes between the SX and the socket | on the board or is there something fundamentally wrong with this idea? AOX sells just such a device. I rejected the idea because it cost as much as a motherboard, but for a laptop it would be nice. They advertise in a number of mags, I got their address off the net, posted it back later, and now have tossed it. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (11/03/89)
In article <4521@utastro.UUCP>, hgcjr@utastro.UUCP (Harold G. Corwin Jr.) writes: | I've been thinking of doing this myself. Has anyone on the net actually | put a 386SX motherboard in an AT or a clone? If so, would you be willing | to comment on the project? I am personally interested in the whole thing, | all the way from choosing a board and a dealer, through the actual mechanical | installation, to the moment of truth -- does it work as advertised or not? No big deal. Depending on how much stuff you have in there it can take a long time. I did one with 2HD 2FD and a tape drive, 2S+3P, and it took three hours total, most of which was spend uncabling and moving stuff. Figure two hours for a more normal system. I put one (XT size) in an original IBM portable (luggable). Both worked and more than doubled the speed of the CPU. The portable got an EDSI controller and HH 160MB drive, too, which probably helped more than the CPU. | | Particular questions of mine: can the 120ns 256Kb RAM on the AT motherboard | be used successfully on a new board, or should I plan on buying faster RAM? If you run 16MHz and 2w/s you can get away with it. It will not be much faster than the 286 you take out. 100ns memory is <$100/MB, put in what you need. | Similarly, what about my extended/expanded memory board with the same sort | of RAM? The thought of replacing 2.5MB at today's costs for 80 or 100ns | RAM doesn't thrill me too much. (I'm not particularly interested in speed, | but mostly in the 386's memory management skills that are supposed to ease | the problems of multitasking, working with large programs, data files, etc.) Since the SX is only 16 bit data, you don't lose on the bus, but you will take a hit if you use slow memory. As VDISK it's okay, still a lot faster than the disk, but if you execute in it, it's slow. | How about video cards and serial/parallel ports? Can I use the ones I've got | now, or will this be an added expense, too? (I'd like to keep my Hercules | card until I have software that will use VGA.) I know that I'll need a new | hard/floppy controller, as well as a 387SX. The serial and parallel are so slow that you won't see a diference. Saving 100ns of a device which cycles in ms is not worth money. The 387SX is a LOT faster than the 287, and you will like it if you do much FP. The video depends on usage, for text it will be okay, for graphics it will be slower than state of the art. State of the art costs a lot. I have a rack of old superEGA and VGA boards I've pulled out looking for better graphics. If you don't need it, don't spend money on it. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
hunt@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Jim Hunt) (11/04/89)
In article <4001@peora.ccur.com> joel@peora.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) writes: > >I suspect that there isn't much market for these modules. With the >new 386SX pricing it is easier to do a complete motherboard swap. Stop and consider here. If the cost of a motherboard is the cost of manufacture, plus amortized development costs, then why are the SX boards so cheap? Might it be that we are just getting 286 boards with 386SX stuffed in? I can't explain $400 motherboards any other way when all the DX boards are $1000 (other than charge what the market will bear). So, if they can munge the design to take an SX, and sell us whole motherboards for $400, then how much could it cost for a tiny daughter board? Other answers: No, you can't put in an SX and jack up the speed, there are hard limits in the speed of a board due to the board itself. The advantage you get from the SX is better Ucode and more instructions available. jim hunt@ernie.Berkeley.EDU H&H Enterprises (1 employee) These ARE the bosses opinions, I AM the * boss!!! grad UCB, MS EE/CS, May 90, resume on request.
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (11/04/89)
In article <19132@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, hunt@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Jim Hunt) writes: | Stop and consider here. If the cost of a motherboard is the cost | of manufacture, plus amortized development costs, then why are | the SX boards so cheap? Might it be that we are just getting 286 | boards with 386SX stuffed in? I can't explain $400 motherboards | any other way when all the DX boards are $1000 (other than charge | what the market will bear). So, if they can munge the design to | take an SX, and sell us whole motherboards for $400, then how | much could it cost for a tiny daughter board? Actually with what needs to be on the "tiny daughter board" quite a bit. The cost of putting a lot of stuff in a small place is always higher than a larger space, at least when the small space pushes the limits of fabrication processes. Does anyone but AOX have a plug in? Since my wife owns a system house, I'll say a word about dealer prices. You pay for brand name and *perceived* value, not cost. That's why IBM costs more than Joe's Clones. IBM has the production line to make the box cheaper, they charge for the name. Before I get a lot of flames, yes, you may get better service from IBM, but Joe may be competent and honest, too. Okay, here are some prices for motherboards (0k, 2 or more): 386SX $286 386/20 $430 386/25 cache $575 The low prices don't mean crap, they mean "no reputation." They represent the actual cost of manufacture from someone who has nothing to sell but the product. Look at Micronics and MYLEX prices. Why are these so high, and why is AMI priced higher than the others? These are all top quality boards, but a lot of what you buy is name, still. The cost of manufacture is not proportionally higher than the low priced brands. What you get for your extra money is a high probability of a satisfactory product. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
Captain-Magic@cup.portal.com (Randy Captain-Magic Holcomb) (11/05/89)
MicroWay has a board that allows you to pull your 286 out and replace it with their board that contains a 386DX and a socket for a 387. According to the ad it comes in a 16 MHz and 25 MHz versions. They have been running ads in the last few issues of BYTE. For those of us whose motherboards/cases have all sorts of built-in stuff this may be a better way to go than a motherboard swap; I seriously doubt if I can find a 386 motherboard that has all that is standard on my motherboard (2 ser/1par,PS/2 keyboard/mouseports, VGA, IDE drives, etc.) Randy Holcomb (Captain-Magic@cup.portal.com)
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (11/06/89)
Captain-Magic@cup.portal.com writes: > MicroWay has a board that allows you to pull your 286 out and replace it with > their board that contains a 386DX and a socket for a 387... ... > For those of us whose motherboards/cases have all sorts of built-in stuff this > may be a better way to go than a motherboard swap... The MicroWay board will probably NOT work in most clones (nor do they imply that it will--they're careful about that when you order). The board is designed to plug into the 286 PGA socket of an AT. It will not work in a PLCC socket, which is what's used for the processor in most clones. Also, you need enough clearance for the board, which has to sit as a "mezzanine" above the motherboard. If there's something tall in the way, forget it. (I tried the MicroWay board for my machine, which *does* have a PGA CPU, but a power-supply connector in the way wouldn't let it fit. Sigh...) They were going to have a different approach for clones--a separate board in a bus slot, with a cable over to the processor socket, sort of like the INboard. That's been delayed until sometime next year, alas. Details from above for the unfamiliar: PGA = pin grid array; LCC = leadless chip carrier. If your processor is that sort of gray/purple ceramic with pins on the bottom, it's a PGA. If it's plastic and you can see the metal leads around the side of the chip, with the chip sitting "in" the socket (socket surrounds edge of chip) instead of "on" it, you've got the leadless style. If you don't have a PGA, the MicroWay board won't work. If you have a real AT, it should. If you have a clone but with a PGA, it might...talk to MicroWay about the board dimensions. They do have the board orientation right so that if you have a ZIF PGA socket, the lever for the socket clears the board OK. -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 ...Worst-case analysis must never begin with "No one would ever want..."
ca_bt@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (11/08/89)
>In article <19132@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, hunt@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Jim Hunt) writes: >| Stop and consider here. If the cost of a motherboard is the cost >| of manufacture, plus amortized development costs, then why are >| the SX boards so cheap? Might it be that we are just getting 286 >| boards with 386SX stuffed in? I can't explain $400 motherboards >| any other way when all the DX boards are $1000 (other than charge >| what the market will bear). So, if they can munge the design to >| take an SX, and sell us whole motherboards for $400, then how >| much could it cost for a tiny daughter board? > Okay, here are some prices for motherboards (0k, 2 or more): > 386SX $286 > 386/20 $430 > 386/25 cache $575 > The low prices don't mean crap, they mean "no reputation." They >represent the actual cost of manufacture from someone who has nothing >to sell but the product... [ various points deleted] >bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) Note also the price of the processors themselves. From what I've read recently (PC Week?), 16-20 Mhz 80286s are going for $60-100 in large lots. Intel has decided to kill these '286's by pricing the 16 Mhz 80386SX at $80-90 (in large order quantities). Now, the cheapest 80386 - 16 Mhz are in the neighborhood of $190, and the price of the more common 25-33Mhz '386 are more like $250-300. SO, add in at least $150 for the price of a 25 Mhz '386 motherboard over a '386SX motherboard just for the processor alone. Intel is supposedly going to introduce the 20Mhz '386SX chips in early 1990, so look for the 16Mhz motherboards to get even cheaper in a few months. Having said that, does anybody have any opinions on various replacment 386SX motherboards? I've seen adds for a $350 16 Mhz 386SX motherboards (with 0K) from a HomeSmart computing... any experiences? Bill Tsang
poffen@chomolungma (Russ Poffenberger) (11/08/89)
In article <19132@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> hunt@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Jim Hunt) writes: >In article <4001@peora.ccur.com> joel@peora.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) writes: >> >>I suspect that there isn't much market for these modules. With the >>new 386SX pricing it is easier to do a complete motherboard swap. > >Stop and consider here. If the cost of a motherboard is the cost >of manufacture, plus amortized development costs, then why are >the SX boards so cheap? Might it be that we are just getting 286 >boards with 386SX stuffed in? I can't explain $400 motherboards >any other way when all the DX boards are $1000 (other than charge >what the market will bear). So, if they can munge the design to >take an SX, and sell us whole motherboards for $400, then how >much could it cost for a tiny daughter board? > >Other answers: >No, you can't put in an SX and jack up the speed, there are hard >limits in the speed of a board due to the board itself. The >advantage you get from the SX is better Ucode and more >instructions available. > I would be concerned about using the same 286 bios after replacing the CPU with a 386SX. Especially when doing multitasking type operations ala Windows/386 or desqview. Any comments? Russ Poffenberger DOMAIN: poffen@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!poffen 1601 Technology Drive CIS: 72401,276 San Jose, Ca. 95110 (408)437-5254 ------------------------- In a dictatorship, people suffer without complaining. In a democracy, people complain without suffering.
blitter@ele.tue.nl (Paul Derks) (11/09/89)
I have been following this discusion with interest because I have a 80386 DX processor lying at home. I am planning to make an adapter board to plug it into my AT. Has anybody ever done this and how? I have read the article in BYTE about the Cheetah 386 adapter which is precicly the kind of design I'm looking for. Cheetah doesn't make the adapter anymore however and because I already have the processor I'd rather not spend any money on another one. Perhaps somebody has got the equations used in the PAL's in this design or for another design. Thanks in advance Paul Derks