faiman@m.cs.uiuc.edu (12/21/89)
My thanks to all those who responded to my request for information about Gateway's clones. A couple of people asked me to post the results. Here they are. -- Mike Faiman, Urbana --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From rml@uswest.com Wed Dec 13 09:16:19 1989 I have just bought a a 386/20 system from Gateway. I did quite a bit of shopping around and determined that their price was by far the best from a company that had a national rep and what appears to be a relatively high level of user satisfaction. I have had the machine about 1 month and am completely satisfied so far. >From faiman Wed Dec 13 09:33:47 1989 To: rml@uswest.com Subject: Re: Who knows Gateway? Cc: SELF/gateway Thanks for your timely response. I'd be grateful to know, also, what you think about the VGA, for example, whether the claimed 1024 x 768 is significant, and also which version of DOS you decided to go with. -- Mike Faiman >From gcook@horus.cem.msu.edu Wed Dec 13 10:07:20 1989 faiman@m.cs.uiuc.edu: > A week or two ago I saw a request that someone made for information > about Gateway machines. If there were any responses, I'm afraid I missed > them. So, I would be most grateful if someone who saved the responses > would mail them to me. I purchased the 286 machine last february. I love it. Aside from a hard disk failure the first day I got it, I have had no problems since. Now, about Gateway 2000: I highly recommend their company. They shipped a new hard disk to me and I had it installed 2 days after I called them. They strive to please the customer. The only bad thing is getting a technical service person on the phone. It took me a couple days, (probably true for most mail order companies) but once I had them, they solved my problems quickly and efficiently. I accidently wiped out my DOS installation disk, and they recopied it for me at no charge. Usually you have to contact Microsoft directly about those things. I'm sure you'll hear some horror stories about Gateway, but keep in mind, all companies make mistakes from time to time. If they are a good company, they will rectify their mistakes quickly. I think gateway would do so. And, people tend to talk about the bad things that happen to them, and the majority of customers who are completely satisfied rarely speak up. Hope this helps in your decision.` Greg Cook gcook@horus.cem.msu.edu >From rml@uswest.com Wed Dec 13 12:08:08 1989 I got a NEC 3D monitor and the ATI VGA Wonder (256k upgradable to 512k). To be honest, I don't know if any of the software that I've run to date has used the 1024 x 768; I would like to get my hnads on something that does. I can tell you that the 640x480 looks great with gif images. I got DOS 4.0.1. I'm not a DOS guy; I prefer UNIX. I am in the process of trying to decide whose UNIX to buy. Bob Lund >From @a.cs.uiuc.edu,@iuvax,@uiucuxc:jcj@gistdev.UUCP Wed Dec 13 12:22:13 1989 In article <8000064@m.cs.uiuc.edu> you write: > > > A week or two ago I saw a request that someone made for information >about Gateway machines. If there were any responses, I'm afraid I missed >them. So, I would be most grateful if someone who saved the responses >would mail them to me. > > I too am interested in buying a 25MHz 386 box. The Gateway machine >comes with 4M, both sizes of floppy, 160M ESDI, and can be had with a >64k cache for just under k$4. But I know nothing about the reputation >of the company or its products. I'm open to suggestions. > > -- Mike Faiman, Urbana faiman@cs.uiuc.edu I don't own a Gateway machine, but a friend of mine here at work bought one ~6 months ago. 25MHz, 386, VGA. He had some problems with them sending the wrong VGA card _and_ the wrong keyboard, but they were very responsive when he called and explained the problems. They paid for shipping the wrong components back, and he recieved the correct pieces within a week. He has absolutely no complaints since. [BTW, have you considered the Amiga? :-) Keepin' Pace Computers in Champaign is a wonderful dealer.] -- Jeff Jones / GIST, Inc. / 1800 Woodfield Dr. / Savoy, IL 61874 / (217) 352-1165 Email --- jcj@gistdev.gist.com (or) ...uunet!gistdev!jcj (or) {uunet,puree,convex}!uiucuxc!gistdev!jcj >From @a.cs.uiuc.edu,@iuvax,@ames,@pacbell:kef@sactoh0.UUCP Fri Dec 15 11:24:02 1989 I purchased a 16 mHz 80286 machine with VGA card, etc. from Gateway in Oct. 1988. The SamsuEGA monitor gave up the ghost while still under warranty, and I had to replace the serial I/O card once (still covered under warranty). The machine generally works well and Gateway has been responsive to the above problems. There was a slight delay in the initial shipment but nothing unreasonable. I would recommend purchasing from Gateway. --- ############################################################ #######################default .sig######################### >From kens@hplsla.hp.com Fri Dec 15 11:52:17 1989 I'm the owner of a 25Mhz 386 Gateway machine. I had/have a minor problem with it not booting when the system is COLD. (ie. sitting unused for more than an hour) The solution is to re-cycle the power or leave it on all the time. This is a minor annoyance to me but Gateway has responded by sending me every new card in the box and the disc drive. Nothing fixed the problem and I'm sending the box in next Monday (my choice). They really want to fix the problem even though it's only a minor inconvience to me. BTW, they guarantee to fedex me back a fixed box within 7 working days. Gateway's tech staff and attitude are refreshing. Even though they seem a bit over- worked (burgeoning sales, growing like crazy) they almost always call when they say they will and have been very prompt sending parts. I did a survey about 3 months ago about Gateway and am including the responses I received. In summary, seems to be a good company, has great service and a good product. Just a happy customer, Ken ---------------------- >From blake@uns-helios.nevada.edu Fri Sep 29 14:53 PDT 1989 I have had one for nine months now. Had two Seagate drives crash (yes physically). They Federal Expressed me the replacements, no problem. The problem was Seagates, not theirs but they were very cooperative. I would definitely buy another one. I am a very satisfied customer -- their machines ARE well made. Rawlin Blake <blake@arrakis.nevada.edu> ---------------------- >From bb16%prism@gatech.edu Fri Sep 29 15:11 PDT 1989 There has been a *whole lot* of discussion about Gateway 2000's on the net. I haven't paid a whole lot of attention since Ga. Tech has a deal with Dell that makes a Dell 310 a good buy. One thing to note check is the rate CPU speed. A lot of clone makers push a 20 MHz CPU to 25 MHz and a 16 MHz CPU to 20 MHz. Make sure you get a "true 20 MHz" motherboard (or whatever speed your asking for). Anyone who talks about a 16/20 or a 20/25 board is pushing his chips at the higher rate. Hope this helps, Scott Bostater GTRI/RAIL/RAD (Ga. Tech) **** MY 25 MHZ MACHINE HAS ALL 25MHZ PARTS ***** (ken) ---------------------- >From hp-pcd!hplabs!citi!crdos1.crd.ge.com!davidsen Fri Sep 29 16:28 PDT 1989 As editor of the 386users mailing list I see a lot of 386 stuff. This Gateway 2000 seems to have a lot of happy users. I haven't used it myself, but thought you'd like to know I haven't heard anything bad. bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) ---------------------- >From mvolo@uncecs.edu Sat Sep 30 21:52 PDT 1989 I don't own one, but I remember on the net about 8 months ago were a number of complaints about Gateway systems not operating properly on arrival, with many part replacements at their expense. Everyone praised the helpfulness of Gateway's tech support; but who wants a system that takes phone calls and parts replacement to make work. Perhaps things are better now for them. See what other Gateway owners say. M Volow, VA Medical Center, Durham, NC 27705 ---------------------- >From ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Mon Oct 2 07:22 PDT 1989 For some reason I had confused Gateway with Micro1 which did go bankrupt. Tuning into PCMAGNET which is on Compuserve I found a number of messages, all of which were positive regarding Gateway. Amazingly cheap, much cheaper than the Zeos. How can they afford it? Richard T. Ferris ---------------------- >From uunet.UU.NET!gistdev!dlp Mon Oct 2 07:25 PDT 1989 I don't know about thge particular systems you are asking about, but I bought a 20MHz 386 from Gateway last December, and once I got over the rough spots at the start, I haven't had any trouble with it. In fact it's been up since September 9th without rebooting. Mine has 4m memory and 80m hard disk, and cost me about $1000 more than I could buy the same system for now, but with a 150m disk and 25MHz. Sigh. Gateway service was exceptional, except that they sent me stuff via UPS, which sucks massively (they spent 2 weeks getting a keyboard 200 miles to me -- the shipping date marked on it was what Gateway told me). When I needed a new VGA card, they sent me a new one before making me send the old one back. In fact they let me try out two of them and return the one I didn't like! I must recommend Gateway highly. -- Dirk Pellett uunet!gistdev!dlp ---------------------- >From ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Mon Oct 2 07:38 PDT 1989 Here are some commments from compuserve Fm: Jeff Karpinski [CSI] 72470,2613 To: ALL G'mornin'! We've all seen the ads in the Computer Shopper, Byte, etc., Gateway 2000 (Sergent Bluff, IA) has some tuff-to-beat prices. Anybody have some personal experience w/ this company? I've esp. been drooling over their 386-20 MHZ machine. Is it well built? Is their (own brand name) VGA monitor good? How's their response to warranty/repairs? Inquiring minds want to know! ;-> Thanks in advance... Jeff. -------------------- Fm: Mark Lutton 73106,1627 I've got a Gateway 2000 386/20 and like it a lot. (One of these day's I'll write up this answer in a file so I can upload it over and over -- people keep asking about the Gateway 2000.) They assemble and test the machines themselves but the parts are "commodity" parts. Almost always name brands you'd recognize. Specific models vary. When you call, ask them what specific brand and model of each component (motherboard, keyboard, hard disk, monitor, etc.) you are getting. Being as these components are all designed as direct replacements of IBM parts into an IBM machine, the sum of the parts is more "compatible" than most "compatibles" (i.e. it doesn't have an odd keyboard like the Leading Edge, or an odd hard disk drive like the Compaq). Their own "Gateway 2000 brand" monitor is probably someone else's with "Gateway 2000" stuck on it. In the picture it looks like the Samsung CN4551. This is the monitor I have (without "Gateway 2000" or anything stuck on). I like it a lot -- it's very clear. Other users on CIS have complained that this model is fuzzy. Gateway service: you call them and leave your number. Later they call you back and talk you through repairs. This is good if you don't mind taking the machine apart -- you get it fixed faster. And they DO honor their guarantees. The Gateway is not for neophytes, but for an expert it's the best bargain around. -------------------- Fm: Gene R. Williams 73617,623 Jeff: I agree with everything Mark has said--especially the part about checking the exact parts you get, and that it's "the best bargain around". Gene -------------------- Fm: Gene R. Williams 73617,623 Jeff: I bought a 386/20 in March (somewhat higher prices, but not bad). I have a desktop w/4 megs 100ns RAM, a Seagate 28ms 80 MB HD (MFM), a 16-bit VGA card (Video-7 chips), and a Samsung Multisync monitor (of course, you get both sizes of floppies with it--mine are TEAC, and are great). I upgraded from a IBM/XT w/two 360k floppies and a 10 meg HD, and it took some getting used to to master this machine. I had to replace the HD at about one month, but other than that the machine has been flawless. And the replacement was without question--their help lines and technical assistance people could not have been better. One thing that I have noticed in threads here is that they change equipment from time to time, depending on what is available on the market (the faceplate remains the same, but the "innards" might be quite different--after all, they are an assembler, not a manufacturer). For example, I have a Phoenix BIOS, but others I have seen here have AMI, AWD, etc., depending on what was available at the time. I have a GENE motherboard; others have Micronics, etc. Make sure when you talk to the salesman that you lock down EXACTLY what you are going to get. All that being said, I am very happy with my machine, and with Gateway 2000. I figure I saved several thousand dollars buying from them, and would do so again. After all, they now have a 386/33! Gene -------------------- Fm: Elias Baumgarten 76167,1257 Why did it "take some getting used to to master this machine"? The ad sounds extremely appealing. Someone else commented that this machine is for "experts." In what sense? (Expert in using a computer or expert in the hardware and ability to take it apart to fix it?) I'm extremely interested in the pros and cons of this machine and the 20mgz 286 with 2 megs RAM standard. Why is this so much less expensive than all the others? (That always makes one suspicious, I guess.) --Elias -------------------- Fm: Gene R. Williams 73617,623 Elias: It took me some time to master it because I went from an IBM/XT, two 360k floppies, and a 10 meg hard disk, to a 386/20 with both sizes floppies and a 80 meg HD. Not to mention the 4 megs RAM, which I have spent most of my non-productive time trying to fine-tune. I know nothing about the 286/20, but my 386/20 is a fine machine, and Gateway as a company has been very responsive to any question or request I made of them. Remember, they are assemblers, not manufacturers. That is not bad, because you get name-brand components at prices less than you could probably get from a wholesaler. At the same time, you have to be sure to lock down exactly what equipment is going to go in YOUR machine, because there are a lot of different components out there under the same face plate. I recommend Gateway; I started out to get a 286/16 in March, and ended up with a 386/20 I couldn't turn down. If you stay with the 286, make sure you get a Harris CMOS chip. BTW, they have a fairly comprehensive manual, but you won't know it until you turn on your new machine, as it is not in hard copy. There's about 90-odd pages on the utilities disk that comes with the machine. It gives you good information like "how to unpack the cartons" and "how to connect the system". Of course, you can't read all that good stuff until you've already done it and you're up and running. Oh,Well.... Gene -------------------- Fm: Elias Baumgarten 76167,1257 I talked to Gateway today. They also have a 386-SX/16 for about the same price as the 286/20, and I'm tempted to go for that. By the way, how readily USABLE is the 2 meg or 4 meg of memory? (The 386-SX comes with 2 meg standard.) Is it just a matter of a file and a line in your config.sys or is it more complicated? And is all of the 2 meg usable? I, too, would be going from a configuration much like you had before (XT, etc.). I'd love to have even 2 megs of memory and can think of a lot of ways to use it (again, if it's readily usable). What kind of feel does the keyboard have? Any other things one should know about before purchasing? The thing with the manual is a bit weird. I asked if a manual came with it, and the salesperson just said "yes." It's not a bad way to save money; you can always print it out yourself, as long as it is easy to get the machine going on your own. I assume the hard disk is physically formatted and you just have to do the DOS format; is that right? Thanks for any information you can offer. --Elias -------------------- Fm: Gene R. Williams 73617,623 Elias: If you have a choice, I would go with ANY kind of 386 over a 286. While I am not as nasty as the folks at PC MAG (who have said since 1987 that the 286 is "brain dead"), I cannot see today why anyone would buy one. Yes, they still are the predominate business computer. Yes, you can run almost anything on them. And yes, at 16 Mh they are probably a little faster than a 386. Today. But I don't spend $4,000 on a computer to dump it next year. I believe that sooner or later (probably the latter) the software gurus are going to catch up with the hardware guys, and THEN watch us take off. When we can finally get some 386-specific software as a general thing (rather than the pittance that we have now), we will really go somewhere. Right now, my machine runs as a 8086 most of the time, because that's what the software is written for. It's very fast (compared to the XT), but it certainly does not exploit the capabilities of the machine. It's coming (I keep telling myself), but it's not here yet. Still and all, when that 32-bit software does come down, you will not be able to run it on a 286, and you will be able to run it on a 386SX. Therefore, as I said above, get ANY kind of a 386, if you have the choice. Regarding the keyboard, Gateway's is okay, but kind of mushy for my taste. I prefer mechanical keys and a definite "click". The Omnikey Plus from Northgate is the best I have found, and I love it. So my Gateway keyboard is in the closet gathering dust, and I am on the Northgate. Gene -------------------- Fm: Elias Baumgarten 76167,1257 I hadn't read your message when I did it, but I did buy the Gateway 386-SX *and* the Omni Plus keyboard. Now I have to wait for them to arrive. Did you say that the 386-SX/16 is a little *slower* than the 286/16? I thought they'd at least be the same speed. --Elias -------------------- Fm: Gene R. Williams 73617,623 Elias: Welcome to the 386 world. No, I think if you check the benchmarks in a lot of different tests in a lot of different magazines, you will find that a 286/16 runs faster (slightly) than a 386/16, at that speed. That's because the 286 is optimized for data work at 16-bit, and almost all applications out there are 8/16-bit programs. When the 386 32-bit programs start coming down the pike (and they will), you will see the difference, because you will be able to run them, and the guy or gal with the 286 will be out in the cold. As I said in my last message, my 386/20 runs as a 8086 most of the time, simply because the software gurus haven't caught up with the hardware. But they will....(I hope). Gene -------------------- Fm: Elias Baumgarten 76167,1257 How to the 386/SX's compare in this respect? Are they more like the 286's or the 386's? It's a little disconcerting to spend all that money and then get the same kind of functioning you had in an XT. --Elias Fm: Richard Bross 72236,2002 I have bought 6 Gateways for myself and various clients and I can only say the response has been great. As far as the "what do I do with 4 meg of RAM' and "when 386 software arrives",how about VM/386? for $199.00 (mail order) you can use your 4 meg 386 as 4 or 5 seperate "virtual 8086 PCs"! Try doing that with a 286. I've been using it for 10 months and I'm in love. Rick Bross -------------------- Fm: Gene R. Williams 73617,623 Rick: I have had as many as eight apps up and running at the same time under Desqview/386. Of course, that was a demonstration, and the ones in the far background seemed to run VERY slowly--but they ran. The problem I have right now, is that this excellent Gateway machinery has opened my eyes to what COULD be, and isn't yet. The software guys have to get going--and they will. I just have to sit around and chew my nails until next year. Glad you're recommending Gateway; I am perfectly satisfied with my machine, and the service I have received. Gene Richard T. Ferris ferris@eniac.seas.upenn.edu University of Pennsylvania >From fluke!nwnexus!uunet!bywater!arnor!uri Mon Oct 2 17:44 PDT 1989 kens@hplsla.HP.COM (Ken Snyder): > [....................................] Their system works for me (:-). UNIX V.3.2, 20MHz, 4M RAM. Regards, Uri. -------------- <Disclaimer> >From bill@vax1.acs.udel.edu Wed Oct 11 12:53 PDT 1989 Ken, here is the summary someone had collected I talked about. Take a look. Bill Tsai University of Delaware ARPA: bill@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (302) 738-1716 " The computer doesn't hate everybody - just you... " ------ cut here ------ >From: goldstin@shire (Jonathan Goldstine) On July 10, I posted a request for opinions about Gateway 2000. I have gone back through half-a-dozen postings about Gateway 2000 in the preceding month, and have seen about twenty postings since then. I have also received half-a- dozen comments by e-mail. Here is a summary. In May, Milan purchased a 386-20 from Gateway which he returned a month later because it would not run certain software, especially Windows/386. He was upset with Gateway because he had been assured before the purchase that the machine would run Windows/386 but the company conceded later that it was having difficulty running Windows on that machine; because he lost several weeks trying to get things straightened out; and because Gateway's 30-days money back guarantee does not cover software, so he had to pay for the MS Dos that was bundled with the machine. The computer was a 20MHz 386 with a 4 Meg memory and a motherboard called Gene II. It seems likely from other postings that the problems Milan was unfortunate enough to encounter were specific to one particular configuration. For example, there was a report of a Gateway 2000 386 20MHz machine purchased last October (motherboard unknown but thought to be Gene) that ran Windows/386 version 2.03 without difficulty, but only after Gateway replaced the Award BIOS with a Phoenix BIOS (at no expense, the next day by air). "I have yet to find a hardware card or a software product that will not run." There was also a report by someone who thought he had a Gene II motherboard in his Gateway 2000 who was unable to run Compaq OS/2, although he declared himself "very satisfied" with his machine. Here are excerpts from the e-mail that I received: "The support is good ... I don't regret I bought their computer. Problems - when you call support (toll-free of course) - it may take a day for them to get back to you. Otherwise - I'm satisfied." "Excellent machine!!! I just got done with some consulting where we purchased three 386/25mhz machines and they worked great. We had a problem with a 3 1/2 inch drive going bad but they replaced with no questions. One suggestion or complaint. The tech support is hard to get in the afternoon because they are so busy but if you call early in the morning it is not too bad. System worked flawlessly otherwise." "... we are running a Gateway 386/20mhz machine that we have Xenix on. We have had no problems with compatibility. We did experience some problem when we purchased serial boards to allow for 8 serials on the gateway machine. The board they originally suggested did not work. We swapped them for the boards and paid an additional $50-$75 for the new board and everything is ok now." "I just ordered a Gateway 2000 386/25 tower model with 4 mb ram 64k static memory cache, and 150mb ESDI drive. The system is made entirely of name brand components (i.e. AMI motherboard, ATI VGA wonder card, Miniscribe drives, NEC monitor, etc.) ... The cost savings on this configuration of the Gateway is substantial - a comparable Dell system would run me $2500 more while a Compaq would cost about $7,000 more. ... I feel that this cost difference is too great to ignore, while Gateway's use of name brand components makes for a relatively low risk purchase." "In Dec. '88 I bought a Gateway 286. ...I'm real happy with the machine and the company. ... The docs are marginal. But the big deal about Gateway is the tech support. It's fantastic. I've called a few times with problems or questions. Usually they give you an appointment for the next day when they will call you back. The support people have always been knowledgeable and willing to help. That in itself could make buying a Gateway worth it." I also received a comment that "Gateway ships several machines with a WD 1007 controller, which makes no use of the DMA channel, and is not exactly blazing fast. Not so hot for a 386." (In this regard, I note that some postings about disk controllers have suggested that use of DMA is undesirable under DOS but useful in a multiprocessing system such as Unix.) To sum up, most people seem to be reporting positive experiences with Gateway 2000. The company is currently shipping its 386 25MHz machine with a Wedgetek motherboard and AMI BIOS; for $500 more, you get a Micronics motherboard with 64K cache and Phoenix BIOS. It is currently shipping the Orchid Prodesigner VGA card ($80 to upgrade to the VGA Plus, i.e. to upgrade from 256K to 512K), and the Western Digital 10007 ESDI controller. Personally, I am tempted by the cache machine, but I am hesitating because of an incompatibility problem that I have not seen discussed. According to Everex, ENIX currently will not run on the Micronics 25MHz board (it will run on the 20MHz board). They are looking at the problem but make no promises about solving it. They have not tested the Wedgetek board. I do not know whether there are any difficulties running other (generally much more expensive) versions of Unix on that Micronics board. If anyone has information about the Wedgetek 386-25 and Micronics 386-25 cache boards, send me e-mail and if it is of general interest, I will post a summary. From syswerda@BBN.COM Mon Dec 18 15:21:04 1989 I originally asked, and received nothing but recommendations. I have ordered but not yet received a 386-25. --Gil