producer@wam.umd.edu (Winthrop D Chan) (02/06/90)
Hi: Recently HP introduced a $150 rebate on DeskJet Plus, lowering the street price to below $500. In light of this very attractive pricing, I am thinking about settling for the DeskJet, instead of saving enuf to get the LaserJet IIP. I would like to hear from all of you who have used a DeskJet Plus about features that you like or complaints. In particular, I would like to know more about these points: 1. I understand that the ink on the Deskjet "smudges" when it is touched or when wet. Has it ever happen to you, if so, is it a major problem? 2. The availability of fonts for it. 3. Is the slow speed a major aggrevation? How slow is the graphics mode? 4. Expecting the price of the IIP to be even lower when HP introduce the new generation of LaserJets, would you wait and get the IIP for a couple more hundred bucks? Please send email to "lai_wy%ncsd@gte.com", as I am posting here with my friend's account. I will collect all email and post a summary. Thanks. William Lai
baer@uwovax.uwo.ca (02/06/90)
In article <1990Feb5.225207.6913@wam.umd.edu>, producer@wam.umd.edu (Winthrop D Chan) writes: > Hi: > > Recently HP introduced a $150 rebate on DeskJet Plus, lowering the street price > to below $500. In light of this very attractive pricing, I am thinking about > settling for the DeskJet, instead of saving enuf to get the LaserJet IIP. I > would like to hear from all of you who have used a DeskJet Plus about features > that you like or complaints. In particular, I would like to know more about > these points: > > 1. I understand that the ink on the Deskjet "smudges" when it is touched > or when wet. Has it ever happen to you, if so, is it a major problem? Yup. It smudges when you drop water on the paper. I don't consider this a major problem. If you have access to a photocopier, you can always photocopy documents and then throw out the original and keep the copy (which won't smudge). It depends on how frequently you expect to spill coffee over documents (I'm usually in a position where I can simply run off another) or how frequently you expect to be working with documents out in the rain, I suppose. > 2. The availability of fonts for it. Certainly more limited than many laser printers, but not terrible. I've got their Tmm Roman font & it looks great. Looks better than my department's laser printer. One thing, though -- OS/2 users should avoid the soft font option and go for physical cartridges. There may be less choice this way, but the font download program provided by HP only runs under DOS and HP has informed me by letter that it has "no plans" to provide a download utility which will work under OS/2. Downloading fonts takes time, and I'd love to be able to do it in the background while I do something else in the foreground. Rats on both HP (for not having an OS/2 utility) and Microsoft (for the fact that the DOS compatibility box can't run in the background). Enough to make one want to go back to DOS/Desqview. > 3. Is the slow speed a major aggrevation? How slow is the graphics mode? Well, it *is* slow, but what do you expect for $500? This was the big trade-off I was prepared to make for a $500 printer vs. a cheap laser which at the time would have set me back $1300 (I'm not sure what the IIP's current price is). I suppose if you want a laser and have the bucks for it, buy a laser. But if you've barely got a bit more than the money necessary to buy one of the pricier 24-pin printers, and if quality overrides speed as one of your concerns, the Deskjet Plus is a good deal. > 4. Expecting the price of the IIP to be even lower when HP introduce the > new generation of LaserJets, would you wait and get the IIP for a > couple more hundred bucks? How much lower and how soon? Perhaps the cost of buying a Deskjet+ now plus the cost of buying an IIP in 1 - 1 1/2 years will equal the cost of buying an IIP now. > Please send email to "lai_wy%ncsd@gte.com", as I am posting here with my > friend's account. I will collect all email and post a summary. Thanks. I'm having trouble posting to your account. Thought other people might be interested in my comments anyway. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Douglas Baer, SSC, University of Western Ontario, London, Canada N6A 5C2 Internet: BAER@UWO.CA Bitnet: BAER@UWOVAX Telephone: [office] (519)-661-3859
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (02/07/90)
Regarding DeskJet+. I often hear people mention the DeskJet+ is slow relative to a laser printer. Do remember that this is in regards to text printing, where the DeskJet+ is 2 pages per minute (with a tailwind) and laser printers start at 4 pages per minute. However, the DeskJet+ is in general faster than laser printers when printing graphics (about 1 page per minute for the DeskJet+, often 1 page per 2 minutes for laser printers). There are some factors that confuse the issue here, but in general the DeskJet+ is fast in printing 300DPI graphics. The main confusion is the existance of certain software drivers that send graphics to the DeskJet+ in ways that have no effect on laser printers (and in fact may speed up the laser printers) but can greatly slow down the DeskJet+. The main culprit is drivers that try to "data compress" by continually changing graphics margins. When ever graphics margins change the DeskJet+ must print out any graphics at the old margins, and then start storing graphics at the new margins. This results in printing graphics using only several nozzles per pass. If you see an application sending graphics DeskJet+ and the printer is not printing with all of its nozzles (about 1/6 of an inch of graphics per pass), or if the application is not keeping the printer printing all the time, call the software vendor. The DeskJet+ is not slow in graphics -- PC Magazine said it was the faster graphics printer they tested, including all the laserprinters. My personal opinion on the LaserJet IIP vs. DeskJet+ issue is: 1. Are you doing lots of text, especially greater than 50 pages per day. If so, the LaserJet IIP will probably make more sense. 2. Are you primarily printing 300 DPI graphics? If so, the DeskJet+ will likely be faster and more cost effective. Remember, the IIP will require extra RAM to do a page of 300 DPI graphics, adding at least $200 to its cost. 3. Do you do lots of landscape text, and especially want proporitionally spaced landscape characters and mixed text and graphics in landscape mode (i.e. from Excel). The LaserJet IIP is the winner in this category. The landscape mode in the DeskJet+ is a fixed pitch text only landscape mode, suitable for printing spreadsheets, but not much more. 4. Do you need to make transparencies? The DeskJet+ can't do this. Same thing with labels. In general, the DeskJet+ only can do labels and transparencies with the help of a copy machine :-). The waterfastness issue is a negative on the DeskJet+, but I have used the printer a lot, and it is really seldom a real problem. Our official line is "we are working on the problem", and this is definately the case. If you do low volume portrait oriented text, and/or a fair amount of high resolution graphics, the DeskJet+ is a good little printer -- especially with the rebate. Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM Disclaimer: I am speaking for myself. Both the DeskJet+ and the LaserJet IIP are good printers. In either case the money goes to a good cause :-).
rick@NRC.COM (Rick Wagner) (02/08/90)
In article <21990005@hpvcfs1.HP.COM> neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) writes: >Regarding DeskJet+. > >4. Do you need to make transparencies? The DeskJet+ can't do this. >Same thing with labels. In general, the DeskJet+ only can do labels >and transparencies with the help of a copy machine :-). Actually, I have done labels on my DJ. I use some label I got from Price Club (Dennison I think), which work fine. They are 33 to a page (2 2/3" x 1"; 3 accross, 11 down), and are just the right size for 3.5" disks. Later I tried a different brand (Quill or Avery) of larger labels (good size for 5.25" disks), and they smeared to no end. I beleave the difference is the ones that smear are for laser printers and "hot process" copiers. They seem to have a wax-like coating. I haven't seen anything on the box, but I assume then the ones that work are for "cold process" copiers. I recently saw and add for or a box of ink-jet transperancy film. I have know idea of how well, if at all these really work. >The waterfastness issue is a negative on the DeskJet+, but I have >used the printer a lot, and it is really seldom a real problem. Our >official line is "we are working on the problem", and this is definately >the case. > The waterfastness problem can be worked around with spray on "fixative". You can find it at art stores or the art section of a stationary store. It won't protect your work from major spills, but it should cut down on smearing from finger tips and high humidity. I have heard from sources that a water proof ink for the DJ is in the works. I have noticed the pakaging for the cartridges shows a color dot on the box. I wonder if this is for consistency in packaging with other HP printers, or could color be in our future? I could see this done one of two ways: 1) A single color, you have to change cartridges to change color. You could never have true color printing this way, but you could do "special" type things. You could probably do multiple passes for multi-color, if the usage would not show off the mis-alignment between feeds. 2) Since the jets are part of the cartridge, and under program control, it is conceivable that a mutli-color cartridge could be built. This could allow for reasonable color. Your cartridge life would be shorter, since you would have to throw it away as soon as the heaviest used color ran out. (How about factory designed refillable cartridges, with HP supplied ink? Yeah, I have read about refilling them using stationary-store ink, but I would prefer an HP soloution). Just wishing I guess. --rick -- =============================================================================== Rick Wagner Network Research Corp. rick@nrc.com 2380 North Rose Ave. (805) 485-2700 FAX: (805) 485-8204 Oxnard, CA 93030 Don't hate yourself in the morning; sleep til noon.
wg@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (Bill Gieske) (02/08/90)
In article <4912.25ce0679@uwovax.uwo.ca>, baer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes: > In article <1990Feb5.225207.6913@wam.umd.edu>, producer@wam.umd.edu (Winthrop D Chan) writes: > > 1. I understand that the ink on the Deskjet "smudges" when it is touched > > or when wet. Has it ever happen to you, if so, is it a major problem? > Yup. It smudges when you drop water on the paper. I don't consider this > a major problem. If you have access to a photocopier, you can always photocopy > documents and then throw out the original and keep the copy (which won't > smudge). It depends on how frequently you expect to spill coffee over > documents (I'm usually in a position where I can simply run off another) or > how frequently you expect to be working with documents out in the rain, I > suppose. It also smudges if your hands tend to be mildly damp or clammy. Not much, mind you, but enough to mar the crisp neat appearance rivaled only by a laser printer. In the summer, this is a real problem for me. And with the hummidity added in, this can be annoying. If I could see my way clear to upgrade to a personal laser printer, I'd go for it. Thus, if I had to choose between the DeskJet and IIP, I'd go for the latter. I bought my DeskJet thinking it, like my trusty C. Itoh 8510, would be around for years and years. Given its ink smear problem, our relationship is not without missgivings.
allred@ut-emx.UUCP (Kevin L. Allred) (02/09/90)
In article <1990Feb5.225207.6913@wam.umd.edu>, producer@wam.umd.edu (Winthrop D Chan) writes: > Recently HP introduced a $150 rebate on DeskJet Plus, lowering the street price > to below $500. In light of this very attractive pricing, I am thinking about > settling for the DeskJet, instead of saving enuf to get the LaserJet IIP. I > would like to hear from all of you who have used a DeskJet Plus about features > that you like or complaints. In particular, I would like to know more about > these points: I have only seen an add mentioning the rebate. Does HP have a rebate for all the printers including the IIP or is it only for the deskjet+? What are the specifics of getting the rebate? As for graphics speed, has anyone compared the 300DPI bitmap dump speed of the IIP to the deskjet+. I would assume the deskjet+ is slower than 1 ppm, and the IIP is slower than its rated 4 ppm, but what is the actual rate. The reason I ask is that I am interested in dumping Postscript graphics as produced by a package like Ultrascript, and DVI files from TeX (which isn't quite fair as the deskjet dumps them as 300 DPI bitmaps, but the IIP prints them using downloaded fonts). -- Kevin Allred allred@emx.cc.utexas.edu allred@ut-emx.UUCP
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (02/10/90)
Regarding DeskJet+ graphics speed compared to the LaserJet IIP: I think for all practical purposes both the LaserJet IIP and the DeskJet+ will print graphics faster than most all applications can generate the graphics. I did a couple of quick times, and will report them below. Basically, the DeskJet+ prints graphics as it comes in and the print mechanism is the bottleneck. The LaserJet IIP reads in the graphics then prints the page, so the IO is the bottleneck. In general, the DeskJet+ has faster IO than the LaserJet IIP. This means the IIP will be faster if data compression modes are used. The more data compression reduces the IO, the faster the LaserJet IIP will go. I dumped some files to both printers and here were the times I got. I used the Centronics IO in both cases. The times are to print a single page. A 16 Mhz PC was used in both cases so that the IO was not the real bottleneck. DeskJet+ LaserJet IIP Mode 0 (uncompressed) graphics (921012 bytes) 80 seconds 134 seconds Mode 2 (compressed) 75 seconds 67 seconds graphics (202236 bytes) So there is no clear cut answer here. But I think you will find most applications take much longer than 1 minute to generate a page of 300 DPI graphics "on the fly", so for all practical purposes the DeskJet+ and LaserJet IIP will typically give comparable graphics performance. Note that the above numbers are a bit unfair comparisons for the LaserJet IIP, since I printed a single page. When I dumped the Mode 2 (compressed) file twice, the second page was done 45 seconds after the first page on the IIP. For the DeskJet+, each subsequent page will take the same amount of time as the first. In other words, the LaserJet IIP numbers above reflect the first page startup time of typical laser printers. My basic point is this: Don't expect laser printers to outperform the DeskJet+ when printing 300 DPI graphics. Laser printers will also generally need extra RAM to do 300 DPI graphics (although higher priced printers may come with enough RAM standard). Laser printers will outperform the DeskJet+ in the area of text speed, but not graphics. In my opinion, a major consideration of a laser printer versus a DeskJet+ is the area of text printing volume. The DeskJet+ is rated at 50 pages per day. If you generally print more than this number of pages per day, your volume would suggest a laser printer is more appropriate. It also depends what you can afford. But if you print an average of 50 pages a day or less having your own personal laser printer is probably overkill. Of course, having a laser printer is a status symbol too :-). But graphics print speed should not be a major consideration when comparing the printers. Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM Disclaimer: I am totally biased. My personal printers are a DeskWriter with a Macintosh and a DeskJet+ with a MS-DOS PC. Although I have access to shared laser printers I seldom use them.
wg@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (Bill Gieske) (02/13/90)
In article <1990Feb5.225207.6913@wam.umd.edu>, producer@wam.umd.edu (Winthrop D Chan) writes: > Recently HP introduced a $150 rebate on DeskJet Plus, lowering the street price > to below $500. You want to clarify with HP where you must purchase the DeskJet to be eligible for the rebate. When I bought my DeskJet, HP had an offer where they would give you $100 for an old printer, any condition. I bought my DeskJet mail or- der, obviously to get the best price. HP did not consider the mail order house to be an HP dealer, thus I was not eligible for the rebate. Buying the printer from an HP dealer would have cost almost twice the rebate, so mail order was still the way to go. The point here: don't get your heart set on the $150 without reading the fine print. Bill Gieske cbnewsm!wg
alexs@retix.retix.COM (Alex M. Stein) (02/14/90)
Bill Gieske (wg@cbnewsm.ATT.COM) writes: >You want to clarify with HP where you must purchase the DeskJet to be eligible >for the rebate. When I bought my DeskJet, HP had an offer where they would >give you $100 for an old printer, any condition. I bought my DeskJet mail >order, obviously to get the best price. >HP did not consider the mail order house >to be an HP dealer, thus I was not eligible for the rebate. Call HP and ask them. You might be pleasantly surprised. I was. I bought my DeskJet during the same promotion. I asked the mail order place about the rebate and they said to call HP. HP customer service told me that only authorized HP dealers had the rebate forms you needed to fill out to get the rebate. Only when I asked if there was another way to get a rebate form did HP offer to send one to me. They further said that although they'd "prefer" me to buy from an authorized dealer, they could not by law require it. So I got my discounted DeskJet, HP got my almost functional dot-matrix printer, and I got the hundred bucks. Of course, a month later HP introduced the DeskJet Plus at approximately the price I paid for my DeskJet and the DeskJet price plummeted way below what I paid (even figuring the rebate). Alex Stein alexs@retix.com