LEE@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (01/10/90)
I recenlty bought 3.5" DS/DD Dysan diskettes. The problem is FORMAT command in dos would not format the diskettes. It says, "Track 0 is bad, Diskette unusable." All 50 diskettes are same. But if I format the diskettes using PCTOOLS, I can format them and use them without any problem. Dos doesn't still format them after I format them with PCTOOLS. I have never had this problem with any other 3.5" diskettes. What is going on? Yongduk Lee LEE@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
ralf@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) (01/10/90)
In article <20972@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> LEE@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: }I recenlty bought 3.5" DS/DD Dysan diskettes. The problem is FORMAT command }in dos would not format the diskettes. It says, "Track 0 is bad, Diskette }unusable." All 50 diskettes are same. But if I format the diskettes using }PCTOOLS, I can format them and use them without any problem. Dos doesn't }still format them after I format them with PCTOOLS. I believe that you have encountered a bug in all known versions of DOS FORMAT. It doesn't check whether its buffers cross over a DMA boundary, and blindly uses them; this results in an error which makes FORMAT claim the disk is unusable. The solution is to add or remove a TSR to shift the location in memory where FORMAT gets loaded. -- {backbone}!cs.cmu.edu!ralf ARPA: RALF@CS.CMU.EDU FIDO: Ralf Brown 1:129/46 BITnet: RALF%CS.CMU.EDU@CMUCCVMA AT&Tnet: (412)268-3053 (school) FAX: ask DISCLAIMER? | _How_to_Prove_It_ by Dana Angluin 24. by appeal to intuition: What's that?| Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here.
fredb@llama.rtech.UUCP (Fred Buechler) (01/11/90)
In article <7509@pt.cs.cmu.edu> ralf@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) writes: >In article <20972@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> LEE@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >}I recenlty bought 3.5" DS/DD Dysan diskettes. The problem is FORMAT command >}in dos would not format the diskettes. It says, "Track 0 is bad, Diskette >}unusable." All 50 diskettes are same. But if I format the diskettes using >}PCTOOLS, I can format them and use them without any problem. Dos doesn't >}still format them after I format them with PCTOOLS. > >I believe that you have encountered a bug in all known versions of DOS >FORMAT. It doesn't check whether its buffers cross over a DMA boundary, and >blindly uses them; this results in an error which makes FORMAT claim the >disk is unusable. The solution is to add or remove a TSR to shift the >location in memory where FORMAT gets loaded. > >-- >{backbone}!cs.cmu.edu!ralf ARPA: RALF@CS.CMU.EDU FIDO: Ralf Brown 1:129/46 >BITnet: RALF%CS.CMU.EDU@CMUCCVMA AT&Tnet: (412)268-3053 (school) FAX: ask >DISCLAIMER? | _How_to_Prove_It_ by Dana Angluin 24. by appeal to intuition: >What's that?| Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here. Great answer, but not in this dimension. The address that FORMAT gets loaded at has *nothing* to do with its operation! The problem is that DOS FORMAT attempts to format the diskette for the maximum density that the drive supports. To format a 720k (DS/DD) diskette in a high density (1.44mb) drive, use the command: FORMAT A: /t:80 /n:9
davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) (01/11/90)
In article <7509@pt.cs.cmu.edu> ralf@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) writes: | | I believe that you have encountered a bug in all known versions of DOS | FORMAT. It doesn't check whether its buffers cross over a DMA boundary, and | blindly uses them; this results in an error which makes FORMAT claim the | disk is unusable. The solution is to add or remove a TSR to shift the | location in memory where FORMAT gets loaded. Did you miss the part where he said he didn't have the problem with other brands of disk? I can't think of any way DMA would sense this... -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon
cur022@zodiac.ukc.ac.uk (Bob Eager) (01/11/90)
In article <7509@pt.cs.cmu.edu>, ralf@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) writes: > I believe that you have encountered a bug in all known versions of DOS > FORMAT. It doesn't check whether its buffers cross over a DMA boundary, and > blindly uses them;... Actually, the bug is in the PC BIOS, and no doubt faithfully replicated in compatibles. The BIOS call to format a track checks that the buffer provided DOESN'T cross a 64K boundary, and fails if it does. However, it uses this code not only for reads and writes (which is correct) but for formats (which is incorrect, since the buffer is much shorter because it only contains sector headers, gap bytes etc). If the format buffer is NEAR a 64K boundary, then the BIOS thinks it overlaps it because it thinks the buffer is 512 bytes long although it isn't really. No version of FORMAT has contained a workround, but then it doesn't contain a bug either. The easiest way to fix the problem is to add/subtract one from the BUFFERS= value in CONFIG.SYS; you don't have to mess about with TSRs every time you want to format then. ---------------------+----------------------------------------------------- Bob Eager | University of Kent at Canterbury rde@ukc.ac.uk | +44 227 764000 ext 7589 ---------------------+----------------------------------------------------- *** NB *** Do NOT use the return path in the article header *************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
lampi@pnet02.gryphon.com (Michael Lampi) (01/12/90)
I had the same problem on my system. Called the PC vendor who sold me the
system, and he told me that I was trying to format a low density floppy in a
high density drive, and that I wasn't using the right option when running
FORMAT. He was right: when I used the proper option (sets the number of
sectors on the drive), it worked.
Trouble is, I forgot what he told me (several months ago!). I think it was to
use the /N:9 option after FORMAT.
Michael Lampi MDL Corporation 213/782-7888 fax 213/782-7927
UUCP: {ames!elroy, <routing site>}!gryphon!pnet02!lampi
INET: lampi@pnet02.gryphon.com
"My opinions are that of my corporation!"jdudeck@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (John R. Dudeck) (01/12/90)
In article <4444@rtech.rtech.com> fredb@llama.UUCP (Fred Buechler) writes: > The problem is that DOS FORMAT attempts to format the diskette for the > maximum density that the drive supports. To format a 720k (DS/DD) diskette > in a high density (1.44mb) drive, use the command: FORMAT A: /t:80 /n:9 It's easier to type FORMAT A: /F:720 which also works. Interestingly, some systems (e.g. American Mitac 286) automatically detect whether you have inserted a 720k or 1.44m diskette in the drive, and format accordingly. Others (such as my no-name clone) do not. I suspect that either it is a difference in the FORMAT routine sold with the version of DOS that you have bought, or else it is related to the BIOS support, or both. If anyone knows where to find a FORMAT program that runs under DOS 4.01 and supports 3.5" density auto-detection, I would be happy to learn about it. -- John Dudeck "You want to read the code closely..." jdudeck@Polyslo.CalPoly.Edu -- C. Staley, in OS course, teaching ESL: 62013975 Tel: 805-545-9549 Tanenbaum's MINIX operating system.
goldstein@carafe.enet.dec.com (Fred R. Goldstein) (01/13/90)
In article <25acfdbc.507@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU>, jdudeck@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (John R. Dudeck) writes... >Interestingly, some systems (e.g. American Mitac 286) automatically detect >whether you have inserted a 720k or 1.44m diskette in the drive, and format >accordingly. Others (such as my no-name clone) do not. I suspect that >either it is a difference in the FORMAT routine sold with the version of >DOS that you have bought, or else it is related to the BIOS support, or both. I momentarily thought it a disadvantage when my clone didn't notice that the disk I tried to format had no HD hole, and went bonkers with errors. Then I realized that this arrangement had two advantages. One, I can use DD disks as HD without punching additional holes. They sell devices for $27 to do this; see Computer Shopper for the "Crackpot Engineer". Two, it provides a wonderful "torture test" on DD diskettes. The Very Best of them should be able to handle it, but most won't format right. The outer (first) tracks always do well, but the inner tracks don't. How far you get and how many bad sectors you get probably tells you about how good the disk is. F'rinstance, a no-name bulk-erased 50 cent DSDD disk, formatted in HD mode, had more bad than good sectors (what a painful noise the drive made!). A Maxell "Reliable/Durable" DD disk got about 1.1M, not so bad. Any suggestions for whose DD disks really work HD? Of course, this also tells me that the people selling hole punches are chalatans! fred --- Fred R. Goldstein goldstein@carafe.enet.dec.com or goldstein@delni.enet.dec.com voice: +1 508 486 7388
jdudeck@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (John R. Dudeck) (01/13/90)
In article <7439@shlump.nac.dec.com> goldstein@carafe.enet.dec.com (Fred R. Goldstein) writes: >[Concerning a 3.5" drive that doesn't detect the diskette type.] >I can >use DD disks as HD without punching additional holes. Actually in my earlier posting I didn't go into the gory details of how my system responds. In fact my Toshiba 3.5" drive knows whether I have inserted a 720k or 1.44m diskette by looking at the hole in the diskette. It adjusts its recording current according to the type, and if I try to format 1.44 m on a lo-density dikette, it fails on track 0 every time. There is a jumper on the drive that causes it to ignore the hole, and then I can format up to almost the whole diskette at 1.44 m. However, this is not the answer to the question of how to get DOS to detect what type of diskette you have inserted, and adjust its number of sectors and recording density accordingly. I know that some systems can do this. -- John Dudeck "You want to read the code closely..." jdudeck@Polyslo.CalPoly.Edu -- C. Staley, in OS course, teaching ESL: 62013975 Tel: 805-545-9549 Tanenbaum's MINIX operating system.
wsinrn@lso.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta) (01/17/90)
>F'rinstance, a no-name bulk-erased 50 cent DSDD disk, formatted in HD >mode, had more bad than good sectors (what a painful noise the drive >made!). A Maxell "Reliable/Durable" DD disk got about 1.1M, not so >bad. Any suggestions for whose DD disks really work HD? > I have successfully used SONY 2DD diskettes on a PS/2 model 50, without any problems. After months still not a bad sector. works great. But I wouldn't dare it with no-name disks. But if you compare the ratings of DD and HD 5.25" and 3.5" disks, the difference in magnetic density of HD disks is more than double with 5.25" disks, but only 20% between HD and DD disks with 3.5", so good disks that are 20% than minimal (most good ones are) are good enough. I would never punch a hole in a disk, and I would never settle for a drive that decides for me which format options I can use, I want to be in control of that Rob
charlie@csnz.co.nz (Charles Lear) (01/23/90)
In article <frobozz> Fred R. Goldstein writes: >Any suggestions for whose DD disks really work HD? Back in the dim, dark days when I first got a machine with 1.44M floppy drives, I spent a fortune on buying name brand HD disks. Then one day I formatted a boxful of Memorex DD disks by mistake. Hey, presto, ten nicely formatted 1.44M disks! I've repeated the same performance several times on other people's machines, and out of around 80 DD disks formatted to 1.44M, only one has failed to format and only another two have had a few bad sectors. Since then, I have been able to buy Memorex disks at a good price, and use their HD disks for 1.44M. A lot of my toing and froing involves copying files from one machine to another, and I have found that DD disks formatted to 720k are the best "transfer medium", as just about anything can read and write to them. For backups (I'm too cheap to buy a tape drive) I use Memorex 5.25" 1.2M disks exclusively. I use around ten brands of disk on a regular basis (now WHERE did that disk get to? What brand was it? I really *MUST* start labelling my disks some day...) but all 220 of my backup disks are Memorex. 1.2M disks are the cheapest $ per meg storage I've found. I see no sense in paying NZD$130 (about USD$78) for a box of name brand HD 3.5's when I can get 6 boxes of Memorex HD 5.25's for the same dough... ============================================================================== Charlie "The Bear" Lear Snail: Box 12-175, Wellington, New Zealand The Cave BBS: 64(4)643429 24hrs V21/23/22/22bis Free Access 157MB online! UUCP: ..!uunet!vuwcomp!dsiramd!csnz!charlie Domain: charlie@csnz.co.nz ==============================================================================
emmo@moncam.co.uk (Dave Emmerson) (02/03/90)
> [deleted] but all 220 of my backup disks are Memorex. > 1.2M disks are the cheapest $ per meg storage I've found. I see no sense > in paying NZD$130 (about USD$78) for a box of name brand HD 3.5's when I can > get 6 boxes of Memorex HD 5.25's for the same dough... > ============================================================================== But you think it makes sense to buy all those floppies instead of one little hard disk? Takes all sorts... Dave.
akcs.amparsonjr@vpnet.UUCP (Anthony M. Parson, Jr.) (02/04/90)
Well, my friend got his. Out of the batch he got (50 or 74), he found one that wouldn't format. I tried it, and it still won't format. DOS 3,3 just gives ...failure..." message, but it doesn't say media bad or track 0 bad. It doesn't even start to format at all. We will now see how well MEI Micro follows through on their (is it "lifetime"?) guarantee... ---------------------------------------- | STANDARD DISCLAIMER: | | "... on the other hand, some very | UUCP: akcs.amparsonjr@vpnet.uucp | knowledgable people may justifiably | | disagree with my comments, in whole | C-serve: 73336,1667 | or in part ... " | ----------------------------------------
nghiem@ut-emx.UUCP (nghiem) (02/08/90)
In article <25cb2e24:4164.6comp.sys.ibm.pc;1@vpnet.UUCP> akcs.amparsonjr@vpnet.UUCP (Anthony M. Parson, Jr.) writes: >0 bad. It doesn't even start to format at all. We will now see how well >MEI Micro follows through on their (is it "lifetime"?) guarantee... All magnetic media will last its lifetime. There is no such thing as unlimited lifetime. In my experience, it is not worth the trouble to send for a replacement for a disk that costs less than a buck. The term "lifetime warranty" is in essence a meaningless sales pitch. In the end, only a fraction of the diskettes (or cassettes or video tapes) that fail will be returned and for those that are exchanged the cost to the company is miniscule. How a diskette actually performs is much more important to me. (Also, there is the issue of head wear, but that is another story. Cheap diskettes usually == greater head wear.) My place buys name brand diskettes in bulk from the lowest bidder. Lately, we received Maxell diskettes in bulk. In my experience, about one diskette out of 100 will fail on a virgin format. (I do remember one time when seven out of a box of 10 Maxell diskettes failed on the virgin format, but honestly that is not the norm and I will throw out this instance.) About three out of this 100 will eventually fail at some time in the future. These diskettes simply go into the trash, no questions asked. However, I've never experienced a Sony diskette (3.5 or 5.25) failure. (:->) __________________________________________________________________________ This article is posted for factual information only. Any misrepresentation, if any, is purely unintentional. Any opinion expressed or implicit in these remarks are solely my own. nghiem@emx.utexas.edu !cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!nghiem nghiem@walt.cc.utexas.edu !cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!walt!nghiem
wiess@mrsvr.UUCP (Dan Wiesenstien) (02/10/90)
From article <25cb2e24:4164.6comp.sys.ibm.pc;1@vpnet.UUCP>, by akcs.amparsonjr@vpnet.UUCP (Anthony M. Parson, Jr.): > Well, my friend got his. Out of the batch he got (50 or 74), he found A GREAT deal on 3.5" HD disks. Service Merchandise Mail Order 800-251-1212 TDK MF-2DD >> $8.92 box of 10 << Part # MF2ETK Visa/MC/Discover No affiiliation here. I've gotten some and all are top quality. Dan W.
wyoung@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu (William J. Young) (02/14/90)
In article <24223@ut-emx.UUCP> nghiem@emx.UUCP (Alex Nghiem) writes: >In article <25cb2e24:4164.6comp.sys.ibm.pc;1@vpnet.UUCP> akcs.amparsonjr@vpnet.UUCP (Anthony M. Parson, Jr.) writes: > >>0 bad. It doesn't even start to format at all. We will now see how well >>MEI Micro follows through on their (is it "lifetime"?) guarantee... > >All magnetic media will last its lifetime. There is no such thing as >unlimited lifetime. In my experience, it is not worth the trouble to >send for a replacement for a disk that costs less than a buck. >... I have ordered from MEI with satisfactory results for the past two years. They are VERY willing to receive and replace bad disks (although I only know of about 15 out of 400 I have purchased for myself and friends - I have had none out of about 250 for myself). My experience is with 5.25" (360K) and 3.5" (720K and 1.44M). By the way, for those looking for a good price on 1.44M, you might want to check MEI - $0.89 each. I just got 50 and had no problems formatting any. Disclaimer: No connection with MEI, other than as a very satisfied customer. ---------------------------- Bill Young Internet: wyoung@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu, wyoung%ksuvax1@harris.cis.ksu.edu
pwong@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Patrick Wong) (02/15/90)
Yeah, I placed my order of 75 3.5" HD diskettes at MEI a few days ago. The sales rep told me that it will take 4 weeks before I receive them !!! Well, she said there are more orders than they can fill !!! Patrick Wong ----------------------- pcw@squid.graphics.cornell.edu
stever@modcomp.UUCP (02/15/90)
If you format a double density disk in a HIGH density drive you may get this. Use format /n:9.
jwi@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (Jim Winer @ AT&T, Middletown, NJ) (02/15/90)
I have just received 100 of MEI's 89 cent
($0.94 with shipping and order charges)
HD 1.44 floppies.
of 100:
92 formatted corrcetly on the first attempt with no bad
sectors.
8 had one bad sector on the first format attempt.
On the second attempt:
2 had one bad sector.
6 formatted correctly on the second attempt with
no bad sectors.
of 100, 98 formatted with no bad sectors, 2 formatted with 1 bad sector.
I will return the 2 and see what happens.
Jim Winer -- Post, don't email, I usually can't reply.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
opinions not necessarily | "Why on earth would we want a human intelligence
and do not represent | living in circuitry?
any other sane person | We can already mass produce human intelligence
especially not employer. | with unskilled labor
| almost anyplace fairly cheaper." -- Jim Merittkabra437@pallas.athenanet.com (Ken Abrams) (02/16/90)
In article <1990Feb14.143422.29770@deimos.cis.ksu.edu> wyoung@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu (William J. Young) writes: >By the way, for those looking for a good price on 1.44M, you might >want to check MEI - $0.89 each. I just got 50 and had no problems >formatting any. >Disclaimer: No connection with MEI, other than as a very satisfied >customer. I just called in an order yesterday. They must be selling like hot cakes. Was told that they are on back order with an expected ship of 2 weeks. I, too, am a satisfied customer. -- ======================================================== Ken Abrams uunet!pallas!kabra437 Illinois Bell kabra437@athenanet.com Springfield (voice) 217-753-7965