amit@umn-cs.UUCP (03/02/87)
From Byte magazine, Feb 1987, the What's New section (p.38): " Big Monitor Lets You See What You'll Get ======================================== The LM-300 monitor from Princeton Graphic Systems has a 15" portrait-mounted screen that can display a full page of graphics and text, in WYSIWIG format, without scrolling. Pixel resolution is 1200 by 1664. Video bandwidth is 160 MHz. Scan rate is 74.63 KHz. The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per inch (1:1 aspect ratio), making it compatible with many laser printers. Other features include 42,000 characters display and support for four shades of gray. The monitor is attached to a tilt-and-swivel stand. It comes with a 9-pin shielded cable and connects directly to IBM PC's and most compatibles. Suggested List Price is $750. " I also saw P.G.'s ad in one of the PC magazines (March issue), which is in agreement with all of the above, and also talks about compatability between the LM-300 and their 300dpi scanner, and about related software (cut-and-paste directly in WYSIWYG format). --------------- I have some related questions: 1. The screen measures 15" diagonally, meaning roughly 9x12". Resolution- wise, we're talking 135dpi (1200/9 = 133 ; 1664/12 = 138). Now, that's an excellent resolution, to be sure, but not nearly as good as 300dpi. Did I miss anything, or is there really some sort of compression going on? 2. Hercules card, for all I know, supports resolutions up to 800x600, or so. Are there widely available and reasonably priced controllers for higher resolutions? 3. Never heard before about the WYSIWYG format -- what is it? 4. The hint about Cut-and-Paste software suggests a format that can be both displayed and printed. This is in contrast to the standard TeX approach of a .DVI file which must be filtered separately into each output device format. What I have in mind is a fancy-but-inexpensive TeX previewer. Did anyone in Netland, particularly a TeXpert, take a closer look at the beast? Can they address some of the questions? Neta Amit (amit@umn-cs.ARPA) University of Minnesota CSCI
faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (03/03/87)
In article <1347@umn-cs.UUCP>, amit@umn-cs.UUCP (Neta Amit) writes: > Pixel resolution is 1200 by 1664. ... > The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per > inch (1:1 aspect ratio), making it compatible with many laser printers. How do you "emulate" a resolution that is twice what you actually have? Wayne
jans@stalker.UUCP (03/03/87)
In article <1292@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> faustus@ucbcad.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher) writes: >In article <1347@umn-cs.UUCP>, amit@umn-cs.UUCP (Neta Amit) writes: >> Pixel resolution is 1200 by 1664. ... >> The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per >> inch (1:1 aspect ratio), making it compatible with many laser printers. > >How do you "emulate" a resolution that is twice what you actually have? They did mention four levels of grey. Grey scale anti-aliasing with four levels might achieve the effect of double resolution. We have (in the lab) *readable* three pixel high fonts, using 16 levels of grey and eliptical filtering. :::::: Artificial Intelligence Machines --- Smalltalk Project :::::: :::::: Jan Steinman Box 1000, MS 60-405 (w)503/685-2956 :::::: :::::: tektronix!tekecs!jans Wilsonville, OR 97070 (h)503/657-7703 ::::::
frazier@cti.UUCP (03/04/87)
In article <1347@umn-cs.UUCP>, amit@umn-cs.UUCP (Neta Amit) writes: > > From Byte magazine, Feb 1987, the What's New section (p.38): > > " Big Monitor Lets You See What You'll Get > ======================================== > The LM-300 monitor from Princeton Graphic Systems has a 15" portrait-mounted > screen that can display a full page of graphics and text, in WYSIWIG format, > without scrolling. Pixel resolution is 1200 by 1664. Video bandwidth is 160 > MHz. Scan rate is 74.63 KHz. The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per > inch (1:1 aspect ratio), making it compatible with many laser printers. Other > features include 42,000 characters display and support for four shades of gray. > The monitor is attached to a tilt-and-swivel stand. It comes with a 9-pin > shielded cable and connects directly to IBM PC's and most compatibles. > Suggested List Price is $750. " You're absolutely CORRECT, IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE! It is just about impossible to provide the resolution you're talking about on a pc WITHOUT a compatible graphics card. Maybe you can buy the monitor (ALONE, NO adapter card) for the $750.00, but I'd be doubtful you are able to even do that, considering the cost of s monitor of that resolution. Further more, IF you could buy one at that price, I'd be pretty worried that it wouldn't meet FCC class B emi levels (You've got to pass class B to sell into the "home" market! Class A is limited to "commercial" sites, as in your typical industrial park, etc.) Running such a monitor in your home is very likely to wipe out your tv whenever you use the thing, or your neighbor's if you are in an apartment. The IBM cards and their other "standard" cards like the hercules don't come anywhere NEAR to 1200 by 1664 resolution. You are going to need a graphics card that supports that resolution, and I can tell you,"they don't come cheap". Most don't support any kind of the typical ibm standards, so you still need to have your other monitor and graphics card around so you can boot up the system. As a THIRD problem, you have what CAN become the biggest problem of all, that of software. Without the proper drivers, the bigger screen cannot be used at all. Adding this all up means that you aren't going to see this sort of resolution in your hands for anywhere near $750.00 in a usable form for quite some time yet. Especially with 4 levels of grey scale (sounds like 2 bit planes to me). > 3. Never heard before about the WYSIWYG format -- what is it? What You See Is What You Get. It's one of the new "buzzwords" for the desktop publishing crowd. So you think I'm just blowing off steam 'cause I don't like P.G. and don't know a thing about this stuff? Well, now that you ask, I AM involved with a company that manufactures "medium" resolution ibm-at compatible graphics controllers for use with 19" monitors. "medium" resolution is 1280 dots (pixels) by 960 lines. We've got "high resolution" models at 1600 pixels by 1280 lines, and multiple bit plane models (to 16 levels of gray scale) in the works for release later this year. I know what it costs to manufacture these controller cards, and you just can't afford to put high resolution and any sort of compatibility mode (cga or herc) on the card and bundle the whole thing with some software drivers and a monitor and sell it to OEM's in high volumes for $750, much less get it to the end-user (you & me walking into a compuyter store or even ordering by mail) for near that kind of price. I'm fairly sure the price stated in the ad was from a product announcement send in by P.G., and was for only the monitor; not including the hardware or software to drive it. These things DO happen. If, on the other hand, P.G. REALLY can sell this little goodie to the end-user in a Class-B environment WITH the hardware and drivers, I'd certainly like to get a close look at one! If they provide any compatibility mode(s) so I could use it without the standard IBM monitor and card (I'm already out of slots) (and out of space on my desk) I would be quite interested.....Yes indeedie! --rick -- DISCLAIMER: The foregoing is the result of a brain frazzled by the effects of insufficient sleep and a noisy phone line, and in no way reflects the opinion of my employer, friends, or enemies. I'm not even sure I really wrote it. UUCP: {decwrl,pyramid}!sun!cti!frazier DDD: 408-734-8533
frazier@cti.UUCP (03/04/87)
> In article <1347@umn-cs.UUCP>, amit@umn-cs.UUCP (Neta Amit) writes: > > From Byte magazine, Feb 1987, the What's New section (p.38): > > > > " Big Monitor Lets You See What You'll Get > > ======================================== > > The LM-300 monitor from Princeton Graphic Systems has a 15" portrait-mounted > > screen that can display a full page of graphics and text, in WYSIWIG format, > > without scrolling. Pixel resolution is 1200 by 1664. Video bandwidth is 160 > > MHz. Scan rate is 74.63 KHz. The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per > > inch (1:1 aspect ratio), making it compatible with many laser printers. Other > > features include 42,000 characters display and support for four shades of gray. > > The monitor is attached to a tilt-and-swivel stand. It comes with a 9-pin > > shielded cable and connects directly to IBM PC's and most compatibles. > > Suggested List Price is $750. " I have been informed that P.G. INDEED does sell this unit without a graphics card, and that someone made reference to a supporting hardware card made by sigma (designs?). The price sounded about right for end user cost for the monitor alone, and rumor was that it passes class B so you could use it at home without worry. The controller card was discussed on the net either in this group or net.periphs (or a similar, now valid group) within the past few months, I personally don't remember seeing it, but was assured that it had at least been mentioned. According to my source (rumor) the controller card is not compatible with normal modes so you still need your standard graphics card and monitor to boot the system. alas, another hope dashed on the rocks....I'd still like to see a complete graphics system of this sort of resolution in the "under 900" price range..... Just think, someday (in the future) we'll think this was all "low" resolution stuff. --rick -- DISCLAIMER: The foregoing is the result of a brain frazzled by the effects of insufficient sleep and a noisy phone line, and in no way reflects the opinion of my employer, friends, or enemies. I'm not even sure I really wrote it. UUCP: {decwrl,pyramid}!sun!cti!frazier DDD: 408-734-8533
coffee@aero.UUCP (03/04/87)
In article <1292@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> faustus@ucbcad.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher) writes: >In article <1347@umn-cs.UUCP>, amit@umn-cs.UUCP (Neta Amit) writes: >> The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per inch... > >How do you "emulate" a resolution that is twice what you actually have? I believe two bits/pixel (four shades of gray) will effectively be smoothed by the eye to give a reasonable approximation of twice the resolution in straight black/white.
tankus@hsi.UUCP (03/04/87)
> In article <1292@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> faustus@ucbcad.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher) writes: > >In article <1347@umn-cs.UUCP>, amit@umn-cs.UUCP (Neta Amit) writes: > >> Pixel resolution is 1200 by 1664. ... > >> The monitor emulates a resolution of 300 dots per > >> inch (1:1 aspect ratio), making it compatible with many laser printers. > > > >How do you "emulate" a resolution that is twice what you actually have? > > They did mention four levels of grey. Grey scale anti-aliasing with four > levels might achieve the effect of double resolution. We have (in the lab) > *readable* three pixel high fonts, using 16 levels of grey and eliptical > filtering. > > :::::: Artificial Intelligence Machines --- Smalltalk Project :::::: > :::::: Jan Steinman Box 1000, MS 60-405 (w)503/685-2956 :::::: > :::::: tektronix!tekecs!jans Wilsonville, OR 97070 (h)503/657-7703 :::::: Sigma Designs is advertising something called LaserView in the 3/3/87 PC Week. It boasts the same resolution, etc. as that described above. Cheers! -- -- Ed. Net : {noao!ihnp4!yale!}!hsi!tankus Snail: Health Systems Int'l, 100 Broadway, New Haven, CT 06511 Bell : (203) 562-2101
rotheroe@convexs.UUCP (03/04/87)
>I have some related questions: > >1. The screen measures 15" diagonally, meaning roughly 9x12". Resolution- > wise, we're talking 135dpi (1200/9 = 133 ; 1664/12 = 138). Now, that's an > excellent resolution, to be sure, but not nearly as good as 300dpi. Did I > miss anything, or is there really some sort of compression going on? All my magazines are at home. From memory: The monitor has four levels of gray, for an effective resolution of 2400x3328, which is just about right for an 8x11 300dpi laser printer image. Although I have not seen it personally (yet), I've heard the quality is excellent (which if it is like any other PGS products I've worked with, does not need to be said). Sigma Designs, a California based company, makes a graphics card to drive this monitor, with 4 levels of gray. A package price for the card and a 15" monitor is (from memory) $1800, with a 19", $2200. Card alone: $1200. [Again: all prices from memory]. These are "dumb" cards, they simply memory map parts of the screen, and don't draw primatives (lines, boxes...). I came >< close to buying one of these packages, but haven't (yet), as I'm waiting for a desktop cray with 4000x8000x64 planes for < $1000 :-) ! I'm sure there are preview packages out which run on these cards. We all know that manufacturers are glad to help with this type of information. I shouldn't have to say this, but ... I have no connection with either company except as a satisfied customer. Dave Rotheroe {allegra, ihnp4, uiucdcs, ctvax}!convex!rotheroe CONVEX Computer Corporation Richardson, TX "Good afternoon, gentlemen. I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the Hal plant in Urbana, Illinois, on the twelfth of January, 1992." 2001 & 2010 (book only for 2010)
jfm@cs.odu.edu (John F. Mclaurin) (02/04/90)
I was recently at a local Price Club discount warehouse. They had a Packard Bell Laser printer for ~$1199. It had 1.5M, two HP compatible slots, and Laser jet emulation. Has anyone used this printer? Is it any good? What is it missing? -- John F. McLaurin jfm@xanth.cs.odu.edu
kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) (02/06/90)
In article <11300@xanth.cs.odu.edu> jfm@cs.odu.edu (John F. Mclaurin) writes: >I was recently at a local Price Club discount warehouse. They had a Packard >Bell Laser printer for ~$1199. It had 1.5M, two HP compatible slots, and Laser >jet emulation. Has anyone used this printer? Is it any good? What is it Keep shopping. Two weeks ago, at a computer swap meet, several vendors had HP LaserJetIIPs for under $1000.00. That's right, this is not a misprint. Why would you want a Packard Bell when you can get an HP? Chewey, get us outta here! kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propeller Labs Kaleb Keithley
john@newave.UUCP (John A. Weeks III) (02/06/90)
In article <2741@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> kaleb@mars.UUCP (Kaleb Keithley) writes: > In article <11300@xanth.cs.odu.edu> jfm@cs.odu.edu (John F. Mclaurin) writes: > > I was recently at a local Price Club discount warehouse. They had a Packard > > Bell Laser printer for ~$1199. It had 1.5M, two HP compatible slots, and > > Laserjet emulation. Has anyone used this printer? Is it any good? The best price that I have seen advertised was $1229 in Computer Shopper. On that basis, it is a good price. I have never seen it, though. > Keep shopping. Two weeks ago, at a computer swap meet, several vendors had > HP LaserJetIIPs for under $1000.00. That's right, this is not a misprint. Very good advice. I bought an Epson EPL-6000. I have been very happy with it and I highly recomend it to anyone looking for a laserjet compatible. I paid $949, and it came with a special Epson version of UltraScript for only $39 (which I haven't tried yet). > Why would you want a Packard Bell when you can get an HP? Have you seen the LaserJetIIP? The paper handling is awful. It makes the paper do several sharp turns to get through the mechanism. Add $175 if you want a paper try. Add $425 for a HP memory expansion (you can get this much cheaper if you go third party--I quoted ComputerLand prices). Then wait 16 seconds for each page to print. -john- -- =============================================================================== John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 ...uunet!rosevax!bungia!wd0gol!newave!john =============================================================================== <*** *** Disclaimer: Its my machine, so I can say whatever I want. *** ***>
pete@Octopus.COM (Pete Holzmann) (02/08/90)
Turns out that when HP made the IIP, the left out the video interface in
order to cut costs. That's really too bad, because there are several
nice enhancements possible with an intact video interface (and no, it can't
be added back on without reworking the case!)
Just for example: How about under $2000 for true 600x600 dpi postscript
laser printing? No problem! Go get a Canon LBP4 for $850. Same as the IIP,
but still has the video interface and a few other niceities. Now wait 6
weeks, and DP-Tek will announce a Canon version of their PS-600 board.
The LaserJet II version is $1195 list, available well under $1000. The
Canon version should cost the same. Comes with 42 font Ultrascript PS
interpreter. Put the two together, and you've got 600dpi PostScript! I've
seen examples. WOW!
Pete
--
Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises |(if you're a techie Christian & are
19611 La Mar Ct., Cupertino, CA 95014 |interested in helping w/ the Great
UUCP: {hpda,pyramid}!octopus!pete |Commission, email dsa-contact@octopus)
DSA office ans mach=408/996-7746;Work (SLP) voice=408/985-7400,FAX=408/985-0859allred@ut-emx.UUCP (Kevin L. Allred) (02/09/90)
In article <1990Feb8.042434.21362@Octopus.COM>, pete@Octopus.COM (Pete Holzmann) writes: > Turns out that when HP made the IIP, the left out the video interface in > order to cut costs. That's really too bad, because there are several > nice enhancements possible with an intact video interface (and no, it can't > be added back on without reworking the case!) What is a vidoe interface good for on a laser printer. Does it mean that I could hook up a cable from my VGA card to the laser printer directly? My VGA card certainly won't produce 300 DPI graphics. -- Kevin Allred allred@emx.cc.utexas.edu allred@ut-emx.UUCP
berger@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (02/10/90)
The HP IIP is NOT a laser printer. Although it boasts comparable resolution, I'm not convinced it competes for the same market. A $ 1000 laser printer sounds cheap. Mike Berger, Univ. of Illinois berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
woan@peyote.cactus.org (Ronald S. Woan) (02/10/90)
In article <17100021@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, berger@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > > The HP IIP is NOT a laser printer. Although it boasts comparable > resolution, I'm not convinced it competes for the same market. > A $ 1000 laser printer sounds cheap. The IIP is indeed a laser printer albeit a slow one. You were thinking the DeskJet and DeskJet Plus which are 300dpi inkjet printers. Ron -- +-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+ +------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+ + Ronald S. Woan @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron + + second choice: woan@peyote.cactus.org +
john@newave.UUCP (John A. Weeks III) (02/12/90)
In article <17100021@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> berger@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > The HP IIP is NOT a laser printer. > A $ 1000 laser printer sounds cheap. Yes, the IIP is a laser printer. You might wish to check out recent issues of PC Resource, PC Computing, PC Week, and Computer Shopper. All have had articles about the new crop of Laser Printers form HP, Epson, Toshiba, Cannon, Packard Bell, .... Most of these printers are in the $1000 range, produce 300 dpi graphics, but are a bit slower and rated at a shorter life than the $2000+ machines. The Feb 1990 PC Resource and Computer Shopper have very good aritcles. I recently purchased an Epson EPL-6000 for $949, and my brother is using a HP IIP on his Mac ($950). Both machines perform very well. I don't like the paper handling of the IIP, but it does take up less desk space than the Epson. -john- -- =============================================================================== John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 ...uunet!rosevax!bungia!wd0gol!newave!john =============================================================================== <*** *** Disclaimer: Its my machine, so I can say whatever I want. *** ***>
ries@venice.SEDD.TRW.COM (Marc Ries) (02/13/90)
In article <17100021@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> berger@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
->The HP IIP is NOT a laser printer. Although it boasts comparable
->resolution, I'm not convinced it competes for the same market.
->A $ 1000 laser printer sounds cheap.
->Mike Berger, Univ. of Illinois
Say what? I own a HP IIP (purchased for $950). It looks like a laser
printer, it smells like a laser printer, it sounds like a laser
printer, and the black stuff it puts on paper looks like the output
from a laser printer. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say IT IS A
LASER PRINTER!
I'd suggest you change "cheap" to "inexpensive". AND, it's not geared
towards the "same" marketplace, that's why the "P" in IIP stands for
PERSONAL! Geez.
--
Marc Ries
ries@venice.sedd.trw.com (ARPA)
somewhere!trwind!venice!ries (UUCP)
#include <std.disclaimer>marshall@wind55.seri.gov (Marshall L. Buhl) (02/13/90)
ries@venice.SEDD.TRW.COM (Marc Ries) writes: >In article <17100021@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> berger@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >->The HP IIP is NOT a laser printer. Although it boasts comparable >->resolution, I'm not convinced it competes for the same market. >->A $ 1000 laser printer sounds cheap. >->Mike Berger, Univ. of Illinois >Say what? I own a HP IIP (purchased for $950). It looks like a laser >printer, it smells like a laser printer, it sounds like a laser >printer, and the black stuff it puts on paper looks like the output >from a laser printer. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say IT IS A >LASER PRINTER! I would guess that the original poster was thinking of the HP DeskJet which does boast comparable resolution and costs $1000. It is an ink jet printer. -- Marshall L. Buhl, Jr. EMAIL: marshall@wind55.seri.gov Senior Computer Engineer VOICE: (303)231-1014 Wind Research Branch 1617 Cole Blvd., Golden, CO 80401-3393 Solar Energy Research Institute Solar - safe energy for a healthy future
ib@apolling (Ivan N. Bach) (02/16/90)
In article <1990Feb8.042434.21362@Octopus.COM> Pete Holzmann writes: >Canon version should cost the same. Comes with 42 font Ultrascript PS >interpreter. Put the two together, and you've got 600dpi PostScript! I've >seen examples. WOW! PS 600 comes with UltraScript PC Plus which includes 47 typefaces. Ivan N. Bach Tel (408) 986-9400, x508 QMS, Inc. Fax (408) 727-3725 2650 San Tomas Expressway arpa: ib@imagen.com Santa Clara, CA 95051 uucp: decwrl!imagen!ib