myers@cod.NOSC.MIL (Margaret E. Myers) (02/28/90)
Hullo out there.
Since a few people seem to be interested in this, I am posting this collection
of responses I got to my recent enquiry on Unix for the 386.
Thanks to everyone who responded!
--Margaret Myers myers@nosc.mil
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From: harvard!esegue.segue.boston.ma.us!johnl%ames.UUCP@ucsd.edu (John R. Levine)
Interactive Systems in Santa Monica sells 386/ix, a spiffed up version of Sys
V.3.2. I rather like it. Their disk I/O is much faster than SCO's, and it
seems to me to be somewhat less buggy. It also costs slightly less. Call
them at 213-453-UNIX and get their glossy literature. Don't buy direct from
them, distributors such as Programmer's Connection sell it at a discount.
All 386 Unices other than SCO Xenix in fact are based on the V.3.2 port that
Interactive did for Intel for AT&T. AT&T, Interactive, and SCO all sell
versions of it improved in various ways. Everex sells ESIX and Intel sells
whatever they call their version of it, but they're all quite similar inside.
They all run each other's binary applications (modulo version-specific bugs,
particularly in SCO) as well as Xenix binaries. Xenix, on the other hand, is
an older system that has been upgraded to run V.3.2 COFF binaries. Xenix is
OK, though its TCP/IP support is lousy and it will never have NFS. At the
moment, only Interactive seems to be shipping working versions of NFS and YP,
both of which I use.
The standard development package works pretty well, though I use gcc and gdb.
Even if you use gcc and gdb, you need the development package for the include
files, libraries, assembler, and linker. SCO also has the Microsoft compiler
and linker, Interactive has or shortly will have the LPI compiler and linker,
all of which doubtless have advantages and disadvantages of their own. (I
gave up on DOS MSC because it was so buggy, though Codeview is nice.)
They all support either VP/ix or DOS Merge, which are virtually identical DOS
under Unix programs. Both use the 386's virtual 86 mode hardware, which means
that DOS programs run at close to full native speed. There are occasional
compatibility problems as with any PC clone, but I find vp/ix quite usable for
my DOS work. It's well integrated into Unix so you can easily arrange to run
DOS commands from the Unix shell and vice-versa. 386/ix also lets you mount
DOS filesystems under Unix to get full filesystem transparency, a standard
feature of theirs that doesn't depend on VP/ix.
Interactive is shipping X windows, SCO says they will be soon.
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@esegue.segue.boston.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|lotus}!esegue!johnl
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From: frog!cpoint!alien@ucsd.edu
In article <1796@cod.NOSC.MIL> you write:
>1) About Xenix vs. Unix from SCO. Is there any real difference between the
>two (other than price)? SCO tells me Xenix is really System V version 3.1
>and Unix is System V version 3.2. I don't know enough about System V to tell
>if that makes a difference.
Basically, all the 386 Unix's are identical versions of AT&T Sys V. In fact,
they are all binary compatible (you can take objects from any and run them on
the others).
I don't know why SCO seems to be behind. The current version (which has been
current for a while) is 3.2. I wouldn't consider buying an old version when
you can buy the current one ...
>2) Running DOS applications under Unix/Xenix/Whatever. How is it to run
>DOS applications (like Ventura) under VP/IX with Xenix (or some equivalent
>Unix/DOS combination)? Is the performance acceptable? Is it wise to invest
>in such software or would it be just as good to have a separate DOS
>partition on the disk. I ask this because my understanding is that running
>DOS windows on a SPARCstation gives one the performance of a unaccelerated
>PC/XT...
You ARE going to be having a separate DOS partition. There are tools (doscp,
dosls, dosrm, ...) which allow you to move files back and forth (from the
Unix side). The standard set-up is dual boot (if you want to switch
environments you have to reboot your machine). There are products that
allow you to run a DOS compatability box within Unix, I don't have one
but I have heard they are pretty good and you don't get significant
performance degradation.
One thing I will warn you about is X-windows. Without a graphics co-processor,
X is just too slow to bear ...
>3) AT&T and Intel. I have heard that AT&T and Intel are marketing (will
>market soon?) Unix for the 386. Any idea how much these systems cost?
>Who sells them? Does anyone like/dislike either one? Are they bundled
>into separate packages like the SCO products?
It will be the same Unix as everyone else, I suspect ... The standard
documentation for all of the Unix's is the AT&T System V/386 Release 3.2
manuals (I mean, when they share manuals ...).
>4) Who else has (386) Unix systems? Are these "full" unixes or just useful
>shells? What are the compilers, debuggers, like? Who sells them?
I am using the Esix System V, which is the same basic thing (put out by
Everex). From what I have seen on Usenet, it is also the cheapest. I don't
have a phone number, but their address is:
48431 Milmont Drive
Fremont, CA 94538
I'm sure a call to information would give the phone number.
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From intek01!mark@uunet.UU.NET Sat Feb 24 03:32:58 1990
Questions:
> 1) About Xenix vs. Unix from SCO. Is there any real difference between the
> two (other than price)? SCO tells me Xenix is really System V version 3.1
> and Unix is System V version 3.2. I don't know enough about System V to tell
> if that makes a difference.
I haven't used either of these particular versions, but I used "Xenix Sys V"
for the 286 up until about 16 months ago, and it is NOT System V, and it
DOES make a difference. There's a lot of software that comes across the
net that just compiles with no problem into my current (AT&T Sys V/386)
environment. I always had to do special tweaks to get things to work for
Xenix. Of course, Xenix is by far the largest species of Unix around so
these "tweaks" always get done. But if you're just now getting into this,
I'd get a real System V.
Other than Xenix not being compatible, I was quite impressed with SCO. It's
pricier than some others, but solid as a rock.
> 2) Running DOS applications under Unix/Xenix/Whatever. How is it to run
> DOS applications (like Ventura) under VP/IX with Xenix (or some equivalent
> Unix/DOS combination)? Is the performance acceptable? Is it wise to invest
> in such software or would it be just as good to have a separate DOS
> partition on the disk. I ask this because my understanding is that running
> DOS windows on a SPARCstation gives one the performance of a unaccelerated
> PC/XT...
I don't know about this but am also interested. Could you post (or mail
me) your latest info on this?
> 3) AT&T and Intel. I have heard that AT&T and Intel are marketing (will
> market soon?) Unix for the 386. Any idea how much these systems cost?
> Who sells them? Does anyone like/dislike either one? Are they bundled
> into separate packages like the SCO products?
I got AT&T 3.2 about a year ago from a place called Elek-Tek. I've mostly
liked it quite a bit. It was broken into separate packages, but the base
system + development system together cost about $750 (as I recall).
Elek-Tek is 800-621-1269. They weren't terribly satisfying to deal with;
they left some of the manuals out of my shipment and it took me about 5
phone calls until I finally got someone who had ever even HEARD of Unix!
They do have good prices; you might call for their catalog first if you
can't find a more desirable deal elsewhere.
> 4) Who else has (386) Unix systems? Are these "full" unixes or just useful
> shells? What are the compilers, debuggers, like? Who sells them?
The other one I've used is from Everex, now called Esix. I got a beta
release that was just a bit flaky, but it's been a year and I think they
have it nailed down by now. They're some of the least expensive around.
By the way, if you're a Berkeleyite you may want to wait for Sys V Release 4,
due Real Soon Now. It will support all the Berkeleyisms you're used to
(long filenames & symbolic links, NFS, etc.) and I think if you've been
using SunOS you'd feel a lot more at home with it than System V.
Good luck!
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From uw-beaver!sumax!polari!6sigma2@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 24 04:01:31 1990
We've been looking for a 386 Unix lately, so I can give you some information.
|1) About Xenix vs. Unix from SCO. Is there any real difference between the
|two (other than price)? SCO tells me Xenix is really System V version 3.1
|and Unix is System V version 3.2. I don't know enough about System V to tell
|if that makes a difference.
As far as I can tell, Xenix is an evolutionary dead end, and that true
Unix System V Release 3.2 is going to be standard on 386s (until System V
Release 4 is widely available).
|2) Running DOS applications under Unix/Xenix/Whatever. How is it to run
|DOS applications (like Ventura) under VP/IX with Xenix (or some equivalent
|Unix/DOS combination)?
I've heard that VP/IX isn't all that hot. It doesn't run a lot of programs,
and doesn't run others well. Note that I've never used VP/IX, but heard
this from a dealer who probably could have sold it to us if he hadn't said
anything. There's another package, called DOS Merge, that seems to be
better, but requires a separate DOS partition.
|I ask this because my understanding is that running
|DOS windows on a SPARCstation gives one the performance of a unaccelerated
|PC/XT...
But in this case, isn't the 386 being emulated by software on the SPARC?
If you've got a 386 already, DOS packages shouldn't run much slower than
they would if you were just running DOS on the 386.
|3) AT&T and Intel. I have heard that AT&T and Intel are marketing (will
|market soon?) Unix for the 386. Any idea how much these systems cost?
|Who sells them? Does anyone like/dislike either one? Are they bundled
|into separate packages like the SCO products?
They already are marketing Unix. I think they cost about the same as
SCO. The problem is, Intel seems to be going through some kind of
shake up now. We spent weeks trying to get someone to call us back so
we could get prices, and we have another 386 system with Intel Unix that
we've had a hard time getting them to support. Right now, I wouldn't buy
anything from Intel unless they were the only source and I absolutely
needed it.
|4) Who else has (386) Unix systems? Are these "full" unixes or just useful
|shells? What are the compilers, debuggers, like? Who sells them?
Interactive Systems Corporation (ISC) sells something called ESIX, which
they claim is standard System V Release 3.2, with some speed enhancements
to the file system. Unfortunately, they don't have all of the pieces we
need. They don't have the text processing (nroff, troff, etc.), or the
Motif development stuff. This can be purchased elsewhere, but it's not
clear that ESIX is that much better to justify having to go through
multiple vendors.
There are probably two major issues when getting 386 Unix:
1. Is it full System V Release 3.2. This may or may not be important
to you, but SVR3.2 is the standard System V right now, and will become
SVR4 some day. Also, with System V Release 3, AT&T unbundled things, so
now you have to specifically purchase the development system (compiler,
debugger, libraries, etc.) and text processing (and probably something else
I've forgotten), so make sure your vendor offers what you need, and any
price quote you get includes what you need. Vendors will often advertise
a very cheap Unix, but this only gets you a minimal system, certainly
not something you could use for development.
2. Will it work with your hardware. This is more problematical. Make
sure that either the Unix vendor or board vendor has drivers for the cards
you're using. Also, if you have a card with any special features that
you like, make sure the driver supports those features. For example,
many serial card vendors have an SVR3.2 driver for their board, but not
many have drivers which support hardware flow control, even if their
board does.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: kdq@demott.COM (Kevin D. Quitt)
You might want to check out Interactive's UNIX. It's System V, r3.6
(I believe), and directly supports spawning DOS processes.
Interactive Systems Corp (213) 453-8649
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From: louk@tslwat.UUCP (Lou Kates)
- SCO Xenix (this is not real UNIX and will not run real UNIX
software such as Ingres, etc. There is a lot of Xenix
specific software written, however), 800-SCO-UNIX
- SCO UNIX, 800-SCO-UNIX
- Interactive Systems Corp., they are owned by Kodak and
ported UNIX to the 386 originally, we chose this one,
800-346-7111
- ESIX, 48460 Kato Rd., Fremont, CA 94538 415-683-ESIX (low
priced)
- Minix, the source code for this is in a Prentice Hall book
by Tanenbaum and Prentice Hall will sell you the source for
around the price of the book. Its version 7 UNIX and is not
claimed to be of commercial quality.
- MKS of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada sells UNIX-like tools that
run under MS-DOS in case you would just like a UNIX-like
appearance but still run MS-DOSeric@mks.com (Eric Gisin) (03/01/90)
[this is a followup to an article in comp.sys.ibm.pc] I am comparing Interactive (ISC) UNIX with SCO UNIX. Both are System V release 3.2 with enhancements. From the parent article and other sources, I have gathered the following points: 1. ISC has a faster file system. 2. ISC has the fastest X server (I would say it is usable, not fast). 3. SCO has Xenix/DOS/OS/2 development tools (the SCO tools will run under ISC with some work). 4. ISC is less expensive. SCO has a Developer Program (295$/year) that gives you 40-50% discounts. 5. SCO has POSIX 1003.1 (kernel interface) with job control. ISC will have this in version 2.2 (out in a couple of months). 6. ISC has the only working NFS with YP. (what about without YP?). 7. SCO meets C2 level of TCSEC (security). 8. SCO is not yet committed to System V release 4. Does anyone have any additions? corrections? PS. Where can I get a Exabyte (8mm) driver for 386/ix?
larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder) (03/01/90)
In article <1990Mar1.000247.3037@mks.com>, eric@mks.com (Eric Gisin) writes: > 3. SCO has Xenix/DOS/OS/2 development tools > (the SCO tools will run under ISC with some work). > 4. ISC is less expensive. SCO has a Developer Program (295$/year) > that gives you 40-50% discounts. > > Does anyone have any additions? corrections? ISC has the dealer demo - of 75% off your first copy of up to one of everything. The only agreement is that you can not sell it. -- Larry Snyder, Northern Star Communications, Notre Dame, IN USA uucp: larry@nstar -or- ...!iuvax!ndmath!nstar!larry 4 inbound dialup high speed line public access system