seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) (02/21/90)
Attention computer archeologists: HELP! I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! My only investment so far is $50 for a new power supply; everything appears to work, including the full-size CGA card. My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a harddrive? Installing the drive in my AT clone was easy.. I don't have any documentation for this sucker, and don't even know where to begin. This is an oooold computer, a model 5151 according to the nameplate on the back... the 8088 cpu is stamped 1981, which places the machine firmly in the mists of time. Does the BIOS even support a harddrive? What would happen if I plugged a hard-card in? Should I even bother? David -- David Paulsen ..uunet!nuchat!seven ||| The Curiosity Shop BBS, 713/326-3729 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: What do you get when you cross a dyslexic with an atheist? A: Someone who doesn't believe in dogs.
bbesler@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Brent Besler) (02/22/90)
To install a hard disk in an ancient IBM PC is easy. All you need is
an 8 bit hard disk controller. I would recommend the Western Digital(I
am a WD fan from experience) 8 bit RLL controller (WD 1002-27X model I think).
You should be able to find it mail order for about $50-$60. You then need an
RLL hard drive and cabling. There are numerous mail order places that sell
hard drive kits for "XT's" which will work fine in the old IBM PC's. If the
BIOS is really ancient, you won't be able to boot of of the hard disk. Most
places will supply a small program for the old ones which allows the system
to use the hard disk after booting off of floppy. I would upgarde the BIOS
on the IBM if it were super old. Any authorized IBM dealer will swap the BIOS
for about $30-$40.
Brent H. Beslerusenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) (02/22/90)
In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >Attention computer archeologists: HELP! > >I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! > >My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a >harddrive? Installing the drive in my AT clone was easy.. I don't >have any documentation for this sucker, and don't even know where >to begin. > >This is an oooold computer, a model 5151 according to the nameplate on I don't believe you can do too much in the way of a hard disk, at least not a full or half height drive. There may be a possibility that you can upgrade the bios. I'm not familiar with hard cards, but my impression is that they need to be supported by the bios the same as regular hard disks. According to <begin underline>The Winn Rosch Hardware Bible<end underline> (how do you underline anyway?) the original IBM PC introduced in 1981 cannot handle advanced video adaptors (presumeably EGA) or hard disks. Hope that helps. Patrick Draper ---- Michigan State University
lance@helios.ucsc.edu (Lance Bresee) (02/23/90)
In article <6550@cps3xx.UUCP> draper@cpsin1.UUCP (Patrick J Draper) writes: >In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >>My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a >>harddrive? Installing the drive in my AT clone was easy.. I don't >>have any documentation for this sucker, and don't even know where >>to begin. >>This is an oooold computer, a model 5151 according to the nameplate on >I don't believe you can do too much in the way of a hard disk, at least >not a full or half height drive. There may be a possibility that you can >upgrade the bios. I'm not familiar with hard cards, but my impression is >that they need to be supported by the bios the same as regular hard >disks. >According to <begin underline>The Winn Rosch Hardware Bible<end >underline> (how do you underline anyway?) the original IBM PC introduced >in 1981 cannot handle advanced video adaptors (presumeably EGA) or hard >disks. > I am not sure about the date or model number, but I recently installed a 10mb true blue hard disk into an original IBM PC. Just plugged in the card and the drive and it booted to the hard disk right away. Give it a try. If you have troubles, drop me a line. I have a couple of IBM PC technical manuals here, and will be happy to do some research for you. I tried mailing to you, but ucscc does not know nuchat. You should be able to pick up a hard disk for experimentation pretty cheap. I have gotten two IBM full hight 10 meggers, one for $25 and one for $50. If you dont have any success and want to slime the beast, drop me a line...I can always use it as a controller. Will make an offer. lance lance%helios.ucsc.edu@ucscc.ucsc.edu .
sigma@pawl.rpi.edu (Kevin J Martin) (02/23/90)
In article <6550@cps3xx.UUCP> draper@cpsin1.UUCP (Patrick J Draper) writes: >In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >>Attention computer archeologists: HELP! >>I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! >> >I don't believe you can do too much in the way of a hard disk, at least >not a full or half height drive. There may be a possibility that you can >upgrade the bios. I'm not familiar with hard cards, but my impression is >that they need to be supported by the bios the same as regular hard >disks. > >According to <begin underline>The Winn Rosch Hardware Bible<end >underline> (how do you underline anyway?) the original IBM PC introduced >in 1981 cannot handle advanced video adaptors (presumeably EGA) or hard >disks. > >Patrick Draper ---- Michigan State University Hey, don't be so negative!!! I'm using an original PC to write this. It has a 1982 BIOS from IBM (the only thing that had to be upgraded), two hard drives totalling 97 Meg (one at 28 ms), a SuperVGA card, a 9600 baud datalink, an optical mouse, a 24-pin printer, two high-density floppy drives, and a 386SX accelerator card! All of these items worked first try - none required any workarounds for the fact that this is a PC-2 (256K motherboard), and it probably wouldn't have mattered too much if it were a PC-1; I think the accelerator card has a workaround for that. The only big problem is that I can only get 640K (at least, I haven't investigated expanding it), and it has to be cached for the accelerator, but that works fine. I've had no problems with video or harddrive access. Typing d f000:fff5 in debug gives me the BIOS date: 10/27/82. You should still be able to order this chip (or any of a number of clones of it) from a dealer, or through mail-order. That is, if you don't already have it - it's required, I think, to have 640K in the machine, so if you have that much already, you're OK. You *will* need to upgrade the power supply, in case I forgot to mention that. 150W is a good size, although 125 or more is plenty. Sorry I've taken up so much space here, but I wouldn't want to see his PC go back into the dumpster. Most undignified. Kevin Martin sigma@pawl.rpi.edu -- Irving Arlevine Falls Twenty-Two thousand feet out of 747 ... and survives.
bcw@rti.UUCP (Bruce Wright) (02/23/90)
In article <6550@cps3xx.UUCP>, usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) writes: > In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: > > > >I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! > > > >My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a > >harddrive? > > I don't believe you can do too much in the way of a hard disk, at least > not a full or half height drive. There may be a possibility that you can > upgrade the bios. I'm not familiar with hard cards, but my impression is > that they need to be supported by the bios the same as regular hard > disks. > > According to <begin underline>The Winn Rosch Hardware Bible<end > underline> (how do you underline anyway?) the original IBM PC introduced > in 1981 cannot handle advanced video adaptors (presumeably EGA) or hard > disks. There is a direct connection. One problem with the old original PC BIOS was that there was no provision for BIOS extension ROMs. This mechanism is used by essentially all hard disk controllers (This is code that usually winds up at location C800:0). It is also used by the EGA, PGA, and VGA video adapters (this is code that usually winds up at location C000:0). The BIOS extensions have a special prefix code (55AA) to allow the regular BIOS to recognize them. Hard cards run into exactly the same problems. The controller bootstrap code has to live somewhere. There should be no particular problem finding replacement BIOS chips, if you aren't sold on getting a genuine IBM BIOS chip. That would probably be pretty hard to find at this late date, original PC is so dated. There is an alternative. It is possible to boot such a machine from floppy and then switch over to the hard drive to do all the "real" work. You would either need a disk driver on the floppy, or a special program to tie the hard disk bIOS into the BIOS transfer vector (I don't think this is done automatically by the low-level MS-DOS code on such an old machine ... that's usually the function of the ROM-BIOS, as noted above). You would probably want to redefine COMSPEC, for example, to point to COMMAND.COM on the hard disk drive. It does get to be a bit of a pain though to have to hunt up the boot floppy all the time (since you will want to use the floppy drive(s) for other disks too, you can't keep the boot disk in the drive _all_ the time ...). If you are willing to do enough groveling it is probably possible to do a similar trick with an EGA/VGA video adapter, with a special program in the AUTOEXEC.BAT file on the boot floppy to link the BIOS extension code into the low memory transfer vector for the BIOS. If you are stuck with the old BIOS, and have _any_ cash to spare, you would be doing yourself a big favor to upgrade to a modern BIOS. Replacement chips only cost a few bucks. Bruce C. Wright
kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) (02/24/90)
> In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! >My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a >harddrive? If you wan't my opinion, spend a hundred bucks and just replace the whole motherboard; get a 10mhz clone board (and put a V20 in it.) Then you don't have to worry about BIOSs and whether or not a hard drive controller will work. If you really want 100% IBM compatibility (BASICA) then pull the BASIC roms off the IBM mother board and put them on the turbo board. (You didn't hear this from me) But better yet, would be to get a generic DOS with G(ee)W(hiz)BASIC. Chewey, get us outta here! kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propeller Labs Kaleb Keithley
amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) (02/24/90)
In article <2914@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> kaleb@mars.UUCP (Kaleb Keithley) writes: >> In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >>I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! >>My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a >>harddrive? > >If you wan't my opinion, spend a hundred bucks and just replace the whole >motherboard; get a 10mhz clone board (and put a V20 in it.) Just be sure to get a 5 slot motherboard, else you'll need a case. then when you run out of slots, throw them both away & get more slots, and also buy all new 10 Mhz memory, cause the antique rams probablw won't run that fast, and most 10 Mhz PC/5 slot motherboards require 256K chips, and often the last 128 isn't even 64K ram anymore, then if it does allow 64K's & you need a multi function board which may or may not work at 10Mhz.... No I wouldn't buy a new $ 25 pheonix (or whoever) bios IF needed either (avail. from jameco electronics) 8-). al
dave@compnect.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) (02/24/90)
In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP>, seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: > Attention computer archeologists: HELP! > > I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! CONGRATULATIONS!!! Old isn't necessarily junk.. > My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a > harddrive? Installing the drive in my AT clone was easy.. I don't > have any documentation for this sucker, and don't even know where > to begin. I'm using the very same machine with a 40meg hard card in it. No need to do anything exotic, just plugged in the card and formatted it. It won't fly with the speed of an AT but it's adaquate for most medium memory tasks. Biggest gripe is the 512k RAM limit. BTW, when you get a hard drive on that thing, you'll notice a little + in the upper right hand corner of the display every time the hard drive is accessed. Normal, so don't worry. I'm using mine with Telix, WordStar 5.0 Pro, Nutshell, and several other well known programs. > Should I even bother? I would....... hell, I DID! :-) *>> Dave <<* [------: Dave Ratcliffe :---------: UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!ka3adu!compnect!dave :-] : : 2832 Croyden Rd. Harrisburg, Pa. 17104 : : Sometimes, older IS better!!!!! : Data: (717)657-4997 - (717)657-4992 : [.................................:...........................................]
sc@qmet.UUCP (Steve Croft) (02/24/90)
In article <2199@rodan.acs.syr.edu>, amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) writes: > In article <2914@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> kaleb@mars.UUCP (Kaleb Keithley) writes: > >> In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: > >>I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! > >If you wan't my opinion, spend a hundred bucks and just replace the whole > >motherboard; get a 10mhz clone board (and put a V20 in it.) > > Just be sure to get a 5 slot motherboard, else you'll need a case. ... There are 8-slot motherboards available that fit a standard PC case. Just be sure to ask when buying... -- ****************************************************************************** * Remember, the year 2000 *is* * Steve Croft, Qualimetrics, Inc. * * a leap year... * (ucbvax!ucdavis!csusac!qmet!sc) * ******************************************************************************
seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) (02/25/90)
A heartfelt THANKYAVERYMUCH to all the kind folks who wrote me with information, addresses and advice for turning my dumpster orphan into a real computer! I'm still assimilating information, and depending on what other hardware I can scrounge I'll probably end up going one of two routes: 1. A hardcard with built-in BIOS upgrade 2. An XT controller and cheapo 10MB harddisk, boot from floppy. Or failing that, I'll just buy an XT AboveBoard card, load it up with a gigabyte of 41256 chips and NEVER TURN IT OFF! Yeah, right... In article <3603@rti.UUCP> bcw@rti.UUCP (Bruce Wright) writes: >In article <6550@cps3xx.UUCP>, usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) writes: >> In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >> > >> >I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! >> > >> >My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a >> >harddrive? >> >> According to <begin underline>The Winn Rosch Hardware Bible<end >> underline> (how do you underline anyway?) the original IBM PC introduced >> in 1981 cannot handle advanced video adaptors (presumeably EGA) or hard >> disks. > >There is a direct connection. One problem with the old original >PC BIOS was that there was no provision for BIOS extension ROMs. >This mechanism is used by essentially all hard disk controllers >(This is code that usually winds up at location C800:0). It is >also used by the EGA, PGA, and VGA video adapters (this is code >that usually winds up at location C000:0). >[...] >Hard cards run into exactly the same problems. The controller >bootstrap code has to live somewhere. This is true even of hardcards that supposedly replace the BIOS upon installation? Is it possible to have the original BIOS ROMS still plugged into the motherboard, and still have "upgraded" ROMS via a slotted card, which is how I imagine the hardcard doing its trick..? Given my druthers, I'd rather not mess with (a) acquiring new ROMS and then (b) messing with the circuitboard to replace them, risking (c) frying the already ancient and/or fragile chips that are already there. If I can, I'd like to be able to plug in either a hardcard, or an XT drive controller + cheap harddisk. Possible w/o new BIOS? Failing that, I'll probably end up swapping motherboards for one of those $150 specials I see advertised in the Computer Shopper.. 10MHz and 640K all on one motherboard, with no BIOS worries. >There is an alternative. It is possible to boot such a machine >from floppy and then switch over to the hard drive to do all >the "real" work. Waitaminute.. THIS sounds interesting. With my old BIOS? I could live with booting from a floppy, as long as my machine can at least see the harddisk. >You would either need a disk driver on the >floppy, or a special program to tie the hard disk bIOS into the >BIOS transfer vector (I don't think this is done automatically >by the low-level MS-DOS code on such an old machine ... that's >usually the function of the ROM-BIOS, as noted above). I THINK I begin to understand. The computer has the controller and drive, but doesn't know it's there until the harddrive BIOS is "appended" to the inboard BIOS..? This is done upon startup? How about drivers such as DRIVER.SYS in dos 3.3? Could you place that in your config.sys file (on drive A: ..heh) and tell the computer you have an "external" device that just happens to be a hard drive? I could live with this! I mean, two weeks ago it didn't even power up.. now there's hope for a harddrive. So what if I have to stand on my hands to get it to boot? :-) >If you are stuck with the old BIOS, and have _any_ cash to spare, >you would be doing yourself a big favor to upgrade to a modern >BIOS. Replacement chips only cost a few bucks. > > Bruce C. Wright Do replacement BIOS chipsets come with installation instructions for terrified non-tech folk who know (roughly) that the pointy little legs go down, and that's about all? I'd hate to ruin this poor, forsaken machine.. after it survived its terrible dumpster ordeal. David -- David Paulsen ..uunet!nuchat!seven ||| The Curiosity Shop BBS, 713/326-3729 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: What do you get when you cross a dyslexic with an atheist? A: Someone who doesn't believe in dogs.
alexande@drivax.UUCP (Mark Alexander) (02/25/90)
In article <10843@saturn.ucsc.edu> lance@helios.ucsc.edu (Lance Bresee) writes: >In article <6550@cps3xx.UUCP> draper@cpsin1.UUCP (Patrick J Draper) writes: >>In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >>According to <begin underline>The Winn Rosch Hardware Bible<end >>underline> (how do you underline anyway?) the original IBM PC introduced >>in 1981 cannot handle advanced video adaptors (presumeably EGA) or hard >>disks. True, the BIOS in the original PC-I (with the 64K motherboard) doesn't scan for adapter ROMs (such as those on hard disk cards). The PC-II (with the 256K motherboard) did scan for ROMS, so you can install hard disks in them without a BIOS upgrade. The power supply may be too wimpy, though. -- Mark Alexander (amdahl!drivax!alexande)
pabres13@pc.usl.edu (Joubert John V.) (02/25/90)
David, I have seen the method of booting from floppy, and justpopping
over to the hard drive used in older computers. The company I used to work
for had an old Corona PC with older bioses, this was fixed with an Everex
hard drive controller card ( I don't know which one ), and a driver loaded
from dos that would allow the user to go to the hard drive.
I am sorry, I can't get exact part numbers anymore etc., they sod
the machine. I would try calling Everex ( I don't know the number either,
but call 1-800-555-1212 for 800 information) and trying to get their card
that handles this. Unless you go the hardcard route, you'll need a controller
card anyway. I seriously doubt that any patch program like this would exist
for a hard card device. As for as changing your bios chips... this is a very,
very, simple operation. If you go to your nearest pc user group I am sure
that you could find someone that could help you. They may even let you bring
the thing there, and your dumpster-orphan could the evenings' demonstration
(Sounds like an interesting thing to me).
--
John Joubert | /\ | /\ | _
Internet: pabres13@pc.usl.edu | \|<>|>|> \|<>|>|><`|`|
GENIE: J.JOUBERT |--/|-------/|------------
| \/ \/hoffman@wrdso.ATT.DSO (Paul R Hoffman) (02/27/90)
In article <476@compnect.UUCP>, dave@compnect.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes: > In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP>, seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: > > I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! > > My question: what exactly do I have to do to this beast to install a > > harddrive? Installing the drive in my AT clone was easy.. I don't > > have any documentation for this sucker, and don't even know where > > to begin. > I'm using the very same machine with a 40meg hard card in it. No > need to do anything exotic, just plugged in the card and formatted it. > It won't fly with the speed of an AT but it's adaquate for most medium > memory tasks. Biggest gripe is the 512k RAM limit. BTW, when you get a > hard drive on that thing, you'll notice a little + in the upper > right hand corner of the display every time the hard drive is accessed. > Normal, so don't worry. I also have an old IBM-PC, vintage 1981, with a 04/*/81 ROM BIOS (the first) which only supports a total of 544K RAM and knows NOTHING of hard drives. (It has 64K on systemboard w/ 16K RAM chips, cassette interface, 2 full height 5.25" floppies,etc.) If yours is this vintage you will have to upgrade the BIOS on the motherboard, since it was the next release (11/*/81, I think) which first could recognize such things as hard drives. (Western Digital Hard Drive Controllers have a way to bypass system ROM BIOS and use BIOS on the controller card, I think, but the details are fuzzy...) I think the official BIOS upgrade can still be purchased, probably in the $45-$50 range...But keep you eyes out in computer surplus stores if you are willing to risk some bucks...A few weeks ago, for example, HALTEC in Mountain View, CA had a sale where they were selling (new) old XT-Clone System Boards including ROM BIOS for $37. -- ============================================================================ Paul Russell Hoffman UUCP/Email: att!fswest!hoffman or attmail!phoffman ============================================================================ /* Suck up to everyone, you never know who you're going to work for. */
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (03/02/90)
sc@qmet.UUCP (Steve Croft) writes: <In article <2199@rodan.acs.syr.edu>, amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) writes: <> In article <2914@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> kaleb@mars.UUCP (Kaleb Keithley) writes: <> >> In article <19768@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: <> >>I recently rescued an ancient IBM-PC from the dumpster.. and it works! <> >If you wan't my opinion, spend a hundred bucks and just replace the whole <> >motherboard; get a 10mhz clone board (and put a V20 in it.) <> <> Just be sure to get a 5 slot motherboard, else you'll need a case. ... <There are 8-slot motherboards available that fit a standard PC case. <Just be sure to ask when buying... No there are not. There are 8 slot motherboards that will fit an *XT* case. The slot spacing on a PC motherboard is different and even though an 8 slot board will fit, the slots won't line up with the openings in the case. This makes it more than a little difficult to install cards! Since the card slot openings are an integral part of the case, you have to buy a 5-slot motherboard for a PC case. -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters." -- Solomon Short