joakimf@sluga.UUCP (Joakim Fredriksson) (05/29/90)
Hello outthere!!! Is there somebody outthere who has tested COHERENT? I saw the add in BYTEs may issue. Its developed by Mark Williams Company. If anybody knows anything about the product could you please email experiences to me. If there is any interest I will post the answers in some "compressed" version. Thanx in advance. -- ------------------------------------------------------ - Jocke Fredriksson Systems analyst/Programmer - - Swedish Univerisity of Agricultural Sciences - - Dpt of Operational Efficiency - - S-770 73 Garpenberg SWEDEN - - Voice:46/225/22100 Telex:74551 SLUGARP S - - Fax:46/225/22193 - - Internet: joakimf@sluga.se - ------------------------------------------------------
daniel@netcom.UUCP (Sam Daniel) (06/02/90)
In article <852@sluga.UUCP> joakimf@sluga.UUCP (Joakim Fredriksson) writes: > > Is there somebody outthere who has tested COHERENT? I saw the add in > BYTEs may issue. Its developed by Mark Williams Company. I can't say I've tested it, because I received it only yesterday. But I have installed it, and can tell you more about it than the advertisement. First of all, it works. The installation is virtually automatic, preparing a disk partition and loading 4 very compressed disks took about 25 minutes. The package is very complete, especially for the price. Partial contents: Lex, Yacc, Awk m4, mail, uucp c compiler (small model only) tar, termcap, curses, bourne shell, man pages nroff, troff (with HP LaserJet and Epson drivers) all the standard utilities from at to wc fortune and other games compress, uncompress, zcat Dos file transfer and disk formatting program kermit (with c source) micro-emacs text editor (with c source) 23 pages of installation guide 35 pages of uucp setup/user guide >1000 pages of other documentation There are some disappointments: Coherent requires an entire logical disk partition for itself; it cannot coreside with Dos in a partition, which is what I thought the advertisement said. The small model c compiler is a big limitation, but this is supposed to be Unix version 6 or 7, not System V Release 3.2. The console driver imitates a vt100, but without the application keypad mode. There's no cu, so the only way to interactively call other systems is with kermit, which does not do a terminal emulation mode. The documentation is thorough, but the c library calls are jumbled together with the rest of the Coherent commands, rather than in a separate section. Commands run together, rather than starting on a new page each time, but there is a guide at the top of the page to show what commands are documented on each page (like a phone book). They ship the manual shrinkwrapped, with the disks and installation guide stuffed inside, so my manual already has loose pages falling out of it. (It's glued together, not sewn.) Conclusion: Despite the quibbles, which are minor, it looks really good. Give it a try. Sam -- Sam Daniel * UUCP (Smart): netcom!daniel@apple.com Unisys * (Dumb): {uunet!apple | sun!amdahl}!netcom!daniel 500 Macara Ave. * Voice: 1-408-737-8000 Sunnyvale, CA 95131 * Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary...
darcy@druid.uucp (D'Arcy J.M. Cain) (06/04/90)
In article <12746@netcom.UUCP> daniel@netcom.UUCP (Sam Daniel) writes: >I can't say I've tested it, because I received it only yesterday. But >I have installed it, and can tell you more about it than the >advertisement. > [...] >There are some disappointments: > [...] >The console driver imitates a vt100, but without the application >keypad mode. > >There's no cu, so the only way to interactively call other systems is >with kermit, which does not do a terminal emulation mode. > Neither does cu. It just passes all codes through so that it uses whatever terminal you are actually using. Wouldn't the above mean that you are effectively logging in with a VT-100? >Despite the quibbles, which are minor, it looks really good. Give it a try. Looks good. I'm going to give it a try. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain (darcy@druid) | Government: D'Arcy Cain Consulting | Organized crime with an attitude West Hill, Ontario, Canada | (416) 281-6094 |
streich@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Mark Streich) (06/08/90)
In article <12746@netcom.UUCP> daniel@netcom.UUCP (Sam Daniel) writes: > >The package is very complete, especially for the price. You mention the "small model" C compiler. Is this "small" as in 64K of code, or "small" in the '386 sense of 4 GB ? Also, does it take advantage of extended memory? Thanks.
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) (06/09/90)
In article <22006@boulder.Colorado.EDU> streich@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Mark Streich) writes: >In article <12746@netcom.UUCP> daniel@netcom.UUCP (Sam Daniel) writes: >> >>The package is very complete, especially for the price. > >You mention the "small model" C compiler. Is this "small" as in 64K of >code, or "small" in the '386 sense of 4 GB ? I don't know personally, but read that it is the small as in the 64K of code. > >Also, does it take advantage of extended memory? > Well, it's hard to say if it's "really" using it .. but on my AT, I have 2mb, and when coherent boots it tells me I have "1855 KB" or some such thing. presumably the rest is what is being used by the kernel. -- Bill Heiser | heiser@sud509.ed.ray.com _____________| heiser@world.std.com | bill.heiser@f322.n240.z1.fidonet.org (Think_Tank BBS 508-655-3848) | 75106.2332@compuserv.com
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/09/90)
streich@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Mark Streich) writes: >In article <12746@netcom.UUCP> daniel@netcom.UUCP (Sam Daniel) writes: >> >>The package is very complete, especially for the price. > >You mention the "small model" C compiler. Is this "small" as in 64K of >code, or "small" in the '386 sense of 4 GB ? Where was everybody when I posted my 'Coherent is a lemon' series of messages? It's samll in the sense of 64K code. Coherent runs in 286 protected mode, NOT 386 protected mode. >Also, does it take advantage of extended memory? Yes, it does, but again, you have the small memory model limitation. It's not a Xenix 286 where it will support swapping and large model programs. In fact, I don't think Coherent even supports swapping. What it can stick in memory is all you can run. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/10/90)
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) writes: >In article <22006@boulder.Colorado.EDU> streich@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Mark Streich) writes: >>In article <12746@netcom.UUCP> daniel@netcom.UUCP (Sam Daniel) writes: >>> >>>The package is very complete, especially for the price. >> >>You mention the "small model" C compiler. Is this "small" as in 64K of >>code, or "small" in the '386 sense of 4 GB ? > >I don't know personally, but read that it is the small as in the 64K >of code. > >> >>Also, does it take advantage of extended memory? >> >Well, it's hard to say if it's "really" using it .. but on my AT, >I have 2mb, and when coherent boots it tells me I have "1855 KB" or some >such thing. presumably the rest is what is being used by the kernel. What it's probably telling you is that you have 1855K for user processes. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) (06/11/90)
In article <3059@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >streich@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Mark Streich) writes: > >>Also, does it take advantage of extended memory? > >Yes, it does, but again, you have the small memory model limitation. It's not >a Xenix 286 where it will support swapping and large model programs. In fact, >I don't think Coherent even supports swapping. What it can stick in memory is >all you can run. Sorry, I miseed your first "coherent is a lemon" message. Could you re-brief us late-comers? Thanks! Also, regarding swapping, I'm a bit confused. The documentation outlines a method of configuring swapping. But when I look in the /conf directory, I don't have the 'config' program they describe to re-configure the kernel. Maybe they didn't get it working so left it out??? -- Bill Heiser | heiser@sud509.ed.ray.com _____________| heiser@world.std.com | bill.heiser@f322.n240.z1.fidonet.org (Think_Tank BBS 508-655-3848) | 75106.2332@compuserv.com
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) (06/11/90)
In article <3077@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: > >What it's probably telling you is that you have 1855K for user processes. Yes, that's what I figured. The kernel must use the other 193K (?). Do you know how I can check to see what currently occupies memory? bill -- Bill Heiser | heiser@sud509.ed.ray.com _____________| heiser@world.std.com | bill.heiser@f322.n240.z1.fidonet.org (Think_Tank BBS 508-655-3848) | 75106.2332@compuserv.com
tommy@madnix.UUCP (Tom Landmann) (06/11/90)
>Where was everybody when I posted my 'Coherent is a lemon' series of messages? >It's samll in the sense of 64K code. Coherent runs in 286 protected mode, NOT >386 protected mode. > What does this guy expect for a hundred bucks? It is my guess that he is hostile in general, and probably didn't receive enough parental love as a child. > **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for > ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out > ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! > ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca > **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* Flames > dev/null? Not even dev/null has that kind of capacity! :)
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/12/90)
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) writes: >In article <3059@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >>streich@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Mark Streich) writes: >> >>>Also, does it take advantage of extended memory? >> >>Yes, it does, but again, you have the small memory model limitation. It's not >>a Xenix 286 where it will support swapping and large model programs. In fact, >>I don't think Coherent even supports swapping. What it can stick in memory is >>all you can run. > >Sorry, I miseed your first "coherent is a lemon" message. Could you >re-brief us late-comers? Thanks! > >Also, regarding swapping, I'm a bit confused. The documentation outlines >a method of configuring swapping. But when I look in the /conf directory, >I don't have the 'config' program they describe to re-configure the kernel. >Maybe they didn't get it working so left it out??? I base my assertion of no swapping being supported on what the software engineer at MWC told me when I called him drilling him on howclose to the current implementations of Unix are. He told me, no, it doesn't support swapping or virtual memory. My biggest peeve against Coherent is no large memory model support (ala SCO Xenix 286 or MicroPort Unix SysV/AT). In my opinion, MWC had no business benching Coherent against SCO Xenix 286 since it does support large model processes. In benching Coherent and Xenix 286, wouldn't you expect the basic functionality of Coherent to be similiar to Xenix 286? In all fairness, I think the bench was biased since a kernel optimized not to take advantage of large model process is going to run faster than a kernel that does. I swear, when a company's tech knowledge of their own product is worse than Novell and Lotus combined, that makes me wonder. It's enough to make me want to put Novell's tech support division on my Xmas card list. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/12/90)
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) writes: >In article <3077@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >> >>What it's probably telling you is that you have 1855K for user processes. > >Yes, that's what I figured. The kernel must use the other 193K (?). > >Do you know how I can check to see what currently occupies memory? If it's like real Unix or Xenix, you can do a ps (process status). Since there's no virtual memory, I don't expect a vmstat equivalent to be there at all. The command ps should give you some idea of what's going on though. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) (06/13/90)
In article <3116@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: > >I base my assertion of no swapping being supported on what the software >engineer at MWC told me when I called him drilling him on howclose to the >current implementations of Unix are. He told me, no, it doesn't support >swapping or virtual memory. My biggest peeve against Coherent is no large >memory model support (ala SCO Xenix 286 or MicroPort Unix SysV/AT). In my >opinion, MWC had no business benching Coherent against SCO Xenix 286 since it >does support large model processes. I guess they must have put it in the manual expecting to get it to work, but maybe ran into problems, so released the product without swapping. Apparently they must not have the /conf stuff included for the same reason. I agree, if they're going to compare it against something like Xenix, it should have similar capabilities. > -- Bill Heiser | heiser@sud509.ed.ray.com _____________| heiser@world.std.com | bill.heiser@f322.n240.z1.fidonet.org (Think_Tank BBS 508-655-3848) | 75106.2332@compuserv.com
heiser@world.std.com (Bill Heiser) (06/13/90)
In article <3117@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: > >If it's like real Unix or Xenix, you can do a ps (process status). Since >there's no virtual memory, I don't expect a vmstat equivalent to be there at >all. The command ps should give you some idea of what's going on though. > Yes, I don't knwo what I was thinking of when I posted that question... -- Bill Heiser | heiser@sud509.ed.ray.com _____________| heiser@world.std.com | bill.heiser@f322.n240.z1.fidonet.org (Think_Tank BBS 508-655-3848) | 75106.2332@compuserv.com
kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) (06/13/90)
[excessive flames about Coherents' limitations deleted] My $0.02 worth You guys would probably complain if they hung you with a new rope! For $99, what did you expect. Interactive 386/ix, SCO UNIX 386, Everex ESIX, and M'softs OS-2 (don't forget to add in the price of the SDK) all cost in excess of $500. Compare what you get for $99 from Coherent, then compare what you get for $99 from M'soft. Coherent is a multi-tasking OS, includes a compiler that generates working code, and no doubt a whole slew of tools that make any flavor of DOS on a PC look like a Commodore Pet. Why don't you call M'soft and ask *them* where they hid the compiler in the DOS distribution? PC's have been crying for an inexpensive, reliable, multi-tasking OS for, oh lets see, seven years now. Mark Williams comes along and gives you a compiler in the deal, and all you can do is bitch! Take your snivel rags home and give it a rest will'ya. If you don't want it, then shut up. Keep using DOS, see if I care! kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propeller Labs Kaleb Keithley "So that's what an invisible barrier looks like"
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/13/90)
tommy@madnix.UUCP (Tom Landmann) writes: >>Where was everybody when I posted my 'Coherent is a lemon' series of messages? >>It's samll in the sense of 64K code. Coherent runs in 286 protected mode, NOT >>386 protected mode. >> > >What does this guy expect for a hundred bucks? Ask that question in the MS-DOS environment and you can get quite a lot...such as a full C compiler. Hell, I paid under $70 for Turbo C 1.5 a couple of years back. I don't know why people seem to botch it up in the Unix environment. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/15/90)
kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) writes: >You guys would probably complain if they hung you with a new rope! >For $99, what did you expect. Interactive 386/ix, SCO UNIX 386, Everex ESIX, >and M'softs OS-2 (don't forget to add in the price of the SDK) all cost in >excess of $500. Compare what you get for $99 from Coherent, then compare >what you get for $99 from M'soft. Coherent is a multi-tasking OS, includes >a compiler that generates working code, and no doubt a whole slew of tools >that make any flavor of DOS on a PC look like a Commodore Pet. Why don't >you call M'soft and ask *them* where they hid the compiler in the DOS >distribution? PC's have been crying for an inexpensive, reliable, >multi-tasking OS for, oh lets see, seven years now. Mark Williams comes along >and gives you a compiler in the deal, and all you can do is bitch! > >Take your snivel rags home and give it a rest will'ya. If you don't want >it, then shut up. Keep using DOS, see if I care! Yea, but I get the same deal with Minix plus source code so if I don't like it, I can change it. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
darcy@druid.uucp (D'Arcy J.M. Cain) (06/15/90)
[Attribution screwed up. I don't know who said following line] >>What does this guy expect for a hundred bucks? In article <3128@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >Ask that question in the MS-DOS environment and you can get quite a lot...such >as a full C compiler. Hell, I paid under $70 for Turbo C 1.5 a couple of >years back. >I don't know why people seem to botch it up in the Unix environment. You mean a multi-tasking OS ***PLUS*** a compiler for a hundred bucks is "botched up" when compared to a compiler alone for $70 a couple of years ago? What exactly are you comparing? Try to keep up with the rest of us will ya. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain (darcy@druid) | Government: D'Arcy Cain Consulting | Organized crime with an attitude West Hill, Ontario, Canada | (416) 281-6094 |
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (06/16/90)
darcy@druid.uucp (D'Arcy J.M. Cain) writes: >[Attribution screwed up. I don't know who said following line] >>>What does this guy expect for a hundred bucks? > >In article <3128@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >>Ask that question in the MS-DOS environment and you can get quite a lot...such >>as a full C compiler. Hell, I paid under $70 for Turbo C 1.5 a couple of >>years back. >>I don't know why people seem to botch it up in the Unix environment. > >You mean a multi-tasking OS ***PLUS*** a compiler for a hundred bucks is >"botched up" when compared to a compiler alone for $70 a couple of years >ago? What exactly are you comparing? > >Try to keep up with the rest of us will ya. It's botched up in terms of expectations. And trying to get answers from MWC is worse than trying to get answers from Lotus and Novell combined on when they'll have an OS comparable to Xenix 286/386. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
duncan@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Shan D Duncan) (06/17/90)
From article <4015@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov>, by kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley): > [excessive flames about Coherents' limitations deleted] > > My $0.02 worth > > You guys would probably complain if they hung you with a new rope! > For $99, what did you expect. Interactive 386/ix, SCO UNIX 386, Everex ESIX, > and M'softs OS-2 (don't forget to add in the price of the SDK) all cost in > excess of $500. Compare what you get for $99 from Coherent, then compare > what you get for $99 from M'soft. Coherent is a multi-tasking OS, includes > a compiler that generates working code, and no doubt a whole slew of tools > that make any flavor of DOS on a PC look like a Commodore Pet. Why don't > you call M'soft and ask *them* where they hid the compiler in the DOS > distribution? PC's have been crying for an inexpensive, reliable, > multi-tasking OS for, oh lets see, seven years now. Mark Williams comes along > and gives you a compiler in the deal, and all you can do is bitch! > > Take your snivel rags home and give it a rest will'ya. If you don't want > it, then shut up. Keep using DOS, see if I care! > > kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propeller Labs > Kaleb Keithley > > "So that's what an invisible barrier looks like" Claims, my boy, its the claims they make. That's the trouble. Interesting thought.... $500 hmmm... what do I want for $99?... what was advertised. They claim was they didn't have to charge as much as others because they did not have to pay the licensing fees. "Everything you ever wanted in UNIX AND LESS!" "Coherent is a virtual clone of UNIX" How about trying to edit a 45k text file? Tried it and got "file too large for memory". Manual says exit or the file will be truncated (they package their own version of microemacs - that has it's own problems.). The tech people said no way would I be able to edit a file that large... now if that is true or not.... I wasn't real confident in their answers. It was like pulling teeth. What about aliases? Couldn't find them. $99 is the introductory price. I think to test the market... Did they mention that it might not work with esdi controller? In trying to talk to their tech people I was told that the 386 version might be out towards the end of this year and the upgrade would be similar in price. We returned Coherent because in our case smaller was not better. Can't complain about the 60 day return policy though. I sure there is a use for this product but I find it hard to believe that one could call the present version of Coherent a "powerful multi-user. multi-tasking DEVELOPMENT system." I like the C compiler with a 2k stack default :-) Everything in quotes is from the add they have been running in Byte for the last couple of months. Oh in the comparison to SCO Xenix version 286 2.3.2 they mention a price of $1495.00 Does seem as though they are making a direct comparison now doesn't it? Sorry but I found Coherent in its present state to be more of a toy than a serious piece of software and $99 for a toy... well...